PPL to gliding

[Okavango]

Hi. I'm a PPL holder and thought it might be fun to do some glider flying this summer. Does anyone have a feel for what complexities/cost is likely to be involved in your average PPL converting across? Gliding courses to solo standard are offered at ~£1000 but surely our experience counts for something? As much as anything I'm also interested in the timeframe required as I'm assuming gliding clubs will operate much differently to powered flying in that there's much more involvement with the club operations like winching duties etc.

[BackPacker]

I did just that two years ago and last year. Each time a midweek course (5 days) at a gliding club.

First year, 15 winch launches, no solo.
Second year, solo after +/- 15 winch launces, 7 solo flights.

I already enrolled in this years course again. :ok:

What to expect flying-wise:
- Rudder, rudder, rudder! And since you're constantly turning to catch/maintain thermals, more rudder, rudder, rudder!
- If you normally fly LHS, with left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle, you've got to switch hands. Gliders are steered with the right hand, while the left hand applies air brakes, trim and such.
- Completely new picture in the circuit. On downwind you think you're awfully low for a glide-in, and then find you need serious application of the air brakes on final anyway.
- No touch-and-goes. Every landing is a forced landing and you simply put down the aircraft where there's space. Never mind the five others that landed before you and are still sitting in the landing field.
- Winch launches are a real thrill but it takes a while before you can execute them properly and safely.
- Most (all?) gliders are taildraggers with a center mainwheel, requiring full stick back on/after landing, and require that you "fly" the aircraft in both roll and yaw until it comes to a complete stop. Non-steerable tailwheel, so aerodynamic steering only.
- Air brakes are fantastic. Much more effective than flaps.

On the ground:
Gliding is a team effort and a full-day affair. Whereas in powered flying you show up a few minutes before your lesson/rental block starts, in gliders you've got to help out the full day. So you've got to be there for the morning briefing (no briefing, no flying is the general rule), then help get the aircraft out of the hangar and towed to the launch point. You've got to help prepare the gliders, pull them into their launch position, hook up the cable, signal to the winchman, and keep the wings level until aileron control has been achieved.

After an aircraft has landed, you are supposed to drive the tractor/golf cart to the glider that just landed, and tow it back to the launch point.

And at the end of the day you are expected to help getting the aircraft washed and in the hangar again.

All these tasks are typically taught to you on your first day by the other glider pilots hanging around. So don't expect an easy day the first day.

Slightly more specialist tasks, such as manning the "control tower", reeling out the launch cables, and operating the winch are typically for experienced glider pilots, or people who have had some specialist training. But trust me, even without these jobs there's plenty to be done.

The difference between gliding and powered flying can best be compared to sailing and motor boating. With an engine you're going from A to B and other than departing A and arriving at B, there's not a lot of excitement in between. Without an engine you're going to be busy and excited all day, but at the end of the day you are still at the place where you started. Kinda pointless, but great fun.:ok:

[pulse1]

No touch-and-goes.

I did one once at the Long Mynd in a T49 Capstan. I came in too fast not having appreciated that the wind had dropped after my first flight in the morning. I saw one being done in Tutor on top of a mountain in South Wales.

[tinpilot]

Have a look at this (http://www.lasham.org.uk/learning/ppltosolo.asp).

Obviously they're a bit far away for you, but you nearest clubs may be able to offer something similar.

[cats_five]

Your power flying doesn't count to the log book requirements for a Bronze C, and you get sent solo when the instructor thinks you are ready. However your experience of flying might well help you progress faster than an ab initio. OTOH you might have learnt some bad habits you have to unlearn...

I see someone has suggested Lasham to you. It's really well run on the flying side, lots of gliders, two winches, field dries very quickly after rain (chalk I think and a hill top site), plus the catering is excellent and so is the bar which has won many CAMRA awards. However since you live in Lancashire it's rather a long way to go unless you are going to go for a week and stay there!

But there are plenty of other clubs offering well-run training. They all offer training to the BGA syllabus, but the degree of organisation and so on varies. The BGA website has details of all UK clubs:
British Gliding Association - UK Map (http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm)

And they just about all have a website.

I have a friend who started gliding having a PPL and he made rapid progress to solo and on to bronze - his previous airtime helped him. Hopefully yours will help you as well, and you will also make new friends and discover a fascinating pasttime and you will keep flying through to Bronze, Silver and doing XC flying.

[Blues&twos]

The instructor I spoke to last week reckoned on average about 20 to 30 launches for a PPL to go solo.

Clearly though, it depends on how you take to it!!

[cats_five]

20-30 - was that winch or aerotow?

[fisbangwollop]

I see you are in Lancashire......try this place a great friendly club :ok:

Bowland Forest Gliding Club (http://www.bfgc.co.uk/)

[Piper.Classique]

I see someone has suggested Lasham to you. It's really well run on the flying side, lots of gliders, two winches, field dries very quickly after rain (chalk I think and a hill top site),Hill top? where? It is between Popham and Odiham, mixture of grass and tarmac. Good place to do a course, I agree. Nice pubs close by, as well, and some rooms on site.

[Blues&twos]

cats five - I think it was winch.

[tinpilot]

Blues&twos,

You can do maybe ten circuits in an hour in a TMG, and you're getting used to glider handling at the same time.

High aerotows also give plenty of hands on time as well as lots of height to do the stall/spin awareness and recovery exercises, and of course you're learning how to aerotow.

Since you're not learning to winch launch, you don't have to do a dozen or so winch launch failure training flights.

A combination of motorglider and aerotow training is the quickest way to convert. You can book a motorglider session through the Lasham office, just as you would for power flying.

[cats_five]

Have a look at the OS map - Lasham is most certainly on a hill. Altitude is 182m. Odiham is 121m, Popham is 157, Basingstoke station is 95 and Alton Station is 101m.

[Okavango]

Thanks all - excellent advice. I was aware of Bowland but thought they might be a bit restricted with Manchester airspace above? For initial training is it not better to travel further to somewhere where you can do both winch and aerotows?

[1.3VStall]

Okavango,

Have a look at the Windrushers Gliding Club website. Much closer to you than Lasham and many summer courses available. It's a huge grass airfield, with few airspace limitations and it's also a friendly club with a good fleet, including a motor glider.

I promise you won't be disappointed if you go there!:)

[snapper1]

You will get lots of suggestions as to where to go to try gliding (and this is one of them).

There's no reason to travel very far to find out all you need to know. Bowland shouldn't be a problem re airspace and I understand they are really good lot up there. But you would be equally welcome at the Derbyshire and Lancashire Club. www.dlgc.org.uk (http://www.dlgc.org.uk) We have many pilots with power experience including current and ex airline pilots and ex service pilots who would be happy to talk to you about converting to gliding.

Excellent bar also.

[cats_five]

OK I don't have a chart to hand, but looking at various other resources there doesn't seem to be any airspace close to hand at Bowland Forrest - the base above is above common UK thermal levels, and the stub of the MATZ is plenty far enough away.

You might also fancy investigating Eden Soaring. It's winch only, they had a professional instructor last summer, and it has ready access to probably the best ridge in the UK. It's near Penrith and apparently starting again on 1st May. Challenging I believe but will be fantastic and mind-blowing in the right conditions.

[ProfChrisReed]

I'm not suggesting where you go, 'cause my club is in Suffolk and clearly too far away.

What I do suggest is that you visit your closest clubs (probably Bowland and Camphill) to see how they work. Instructor trainingand the pre-solo syllabus is standardised, but the ethos, atmosphere, facilities and general feel of clubs can be very different. I've not yet had the pleasure of flying at either, but they are very different in size and location - I believe there is no flat place at Camphill to land (which is OK in a glider but very different from a tarmac runway). Join the one where you think you'd be happiest spending a whole day.

According to my wife the minimum unit of gliding time is the day, so you need feel that you will enjoy the company while doing all the other stuff mentioned (especially pushing gliders around) in addition to your flying. At my club there is the risk that the CFI and I will duet on ukulele, which presents a challenge for the musically minded.

I'd also suggest that, unless you intend to go away for an intensive course, distance can be quite important. If the weather is marginal, a half hour drive and an hour drinking coffee, in case it improves, is feasible. If you've a long drive, you won't go unless the weather is obviously good. Continuity when learning is really important - I suspect most would agree with me that turning up once a month means that almost all your time in the air is used getting you back to where your were last visit.

Ideally, plan to glide at least once per week when training - more is great if you can manage it. Of course, this needs a sympathetic family who will allow you to decide late on Friday whether Saturday or Sunday is your flying day this week.

[Edited to add: I've just seen catsfive's post. You should check out Eden Soaring before making the trip because I'm pretty sure they were only accepting experienced pilots to fly there, at least at first. Their website (edensoaring (http://www.edensoaring.co.uk/)) talks of training some lapsed solo pilots last year, so they might be up for what the original poster is looking for. Note that the club is based in N Wales until late April).]

[cats_five]

Originally Eden Soaring didn't have any 2-seat gliders and only accepted Silver C and above pilots to fly there. However they now have a K13 and their website gives the impression they will do "training to solo standard and beyond" this summer. However of course you are right - the OP should ring before going if only to check they will be flying!

If the OP fancies a 5-day course then as well as Lasham and Windrushers, there is also Portmoak. It has ridges (hence ridge soaring which often gives a soaring flight when there isn't any thermal to be had), the scenery is fantastic and the standard of instruction and equipment is excellent. So are the chips...

Gliding holiday Courses (http://www.scottishglidingcentre.com/course_holiday.htm)

[Piper.Classique]

Have a look at the OS map - Lasham is most certainly on a hill. Altitude is 182m. Odiham is 121m, Popham is 157, Basingstoke station is 95 and Alton Station is 101m.

Well I suppose it depends on your definition of a hill. Not exactly what I would call a hill site, but then as a glider pilot I would have said a hill site was one with a soarable ridge. I used to cycle there from Basingstoke, and it wasn't exactly hard work. Now what I would call a hill site is the Long Mynd, or maybe the Montagne Noir. Shall we say gently rolling countryside and leave it at that?

[cats_five]

Yes, rolling. But steep enough that land-out options after a low aerotow failure when one can't get back to the airfield look pretty scary. I remember discussing them with one of their instructors last year when I got to fly thier DG1000 and it really didn't look nice if one was just over the boundary...

And also on top of a hill enough that it drains very quickly after rain.

But I wasn't meaning to imply it has soarable ridges by saying it is a hilltop site!

[mary meagher]

There are a raft of gliding clubs in the midlands. Windrushers (Bicester) is one, we are the other one! We both have a seven day a week operation, with professional staff during the week and club members running the show at weekends.

We do, however have a ridge! and we are definitely on the top of a hill, and we have hard runways as well as grass, and winch as well as airtow, and we have a bar, and a lot of fun, and do a lot of training, from beginners to improvers, and cross country. Our airspace is wide open, our weather is the best, beware of the northwest, it does rain a lot there, you know!

By all means, check us out! You would be very welcome.

[marlat]

Can I recommend The Gliding Centre at Husbands Bosworth? Large airfield (possibly the longest unlicensed grass runway in UK), 7 day operation, professionally run courses during the season. Good club fleet of K21, Puchacz and Duo Discus 2 seat gliders for training plus a modern Rotax Falke motorglider. There are also a lot of privately owned and operated powered aircraft based on site so plenty of interest for a PPL pilot! I'm sure you'll appreciate being aerotowed to 4000ft behind a DHC-1 Chipmunk and then watching it dive away once you have released from tow (the club has 3 for tugs). Finally, the club is easily accessed from the M1/M6 motorways and has on site accommodation in private rooms and on-site catering.

[cats_five]

HusBos has a lot to recommend it - unfortunately it's the other side of Birmingham and Manchester to Lancashire (as is Bicester and Lasham), and in my experience those bits of the motorway network can be stuffed with traffic and traffic jams even at weekends. The Birmingham Toll Road is a great help (at least at the times I've used it) but adds £5 each way to his travelling costs.

Personally I feel that the OP is best to find a friendly club that's easy for him to get to and from at the weekend - he wants to glide, not drive! But if he wants a 5-day course then a lot more places are worth considering. I've met a few folks from Bowland Forest and they seem great fun. I've not flown there or visited but it seems to me the place for him to start as it's the nearest. That would be my tactic - start with the nearest that offers what he (thinks he) wants and work away from home if they don't suit for one reason or another. Or, pick a club with great facilities, and do a 5-day course. The one fly in the ointment with that is that if the weather is good that's great, but if it's poor then it can be very frustrating and a waste of hard-won holidays.

[Okavango]

Thanks all, excellent advice.

[cats_five]

Welcome to the wonderful world of gliding. :)

Let us know what you decide to do and how you get on.

[Lister Noble]

What about NPPL/PPL to SLMG?
How long would that take,roughly?
Lister:)

[Piper.Classique]

Fair enough, cat 5
but scary? No, not really. take a look at Insch, or Talgarth, Florac, or maybe somewhere in the Alps. Lasham is a real pussycat.

[tinpilot]

What about NPPL/PPL to SLMG?
How long would that take,roughly?An hour, maybe two.

Have a look at Section 5 of the SLMG syllabus (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/New/NPPL%20SLMG%20SYLLABUS%20v4%2017%20Feb%2010.pdf).