Obese passengers

[Eboy]

This may be more of a problem in the fat U.S., which is my home. I find less-fat people in Europe, and almost none in my Asia travels.

This is not a joke. Obesity is a disease. I have had my own weight management issues and am sympathetic to the overweight. But, obesity is increasing worldwide and is now at record levels in developed nations. It's time to begin the dialogue. My concerns as a frequent-flyer are as follows:

1. Why do I, as a normal weight person, have to subsidize the transport of their extra weight? It's not fair.

2. Why don't airlines charge by the pound, like DHL or FedEx? As a public health issue, that would be an economic incentive for the obese to lose weight.

3. I think seats could be designed with variable-spaced armrests. The passenger could pay ticket price that factored in weight and width of their hips, and the armrest spacing could be adjusted accordingly. This would be a further incentive to lose weight.

4. Do I as a passenger have to put up with second-hand fat? That is where the fat of an adjacent passenger spills over the armrest and pins me in my seat. Don't I have "rights" to my seat space?

5. Second-hand fat is a health hazard to others. When I am pinned in my seat, I can't move as much. That puts me at increased risk for deep-vein thrombosis (DVT). The airlines would seem to have some liability here in the event I am pinned in by a fat person and I have a DVT episode.

Comments please.

[tom775257]

I think that weight shouldn't be the issue, rather than overall size...perhaps people like handluggage should have to fit in a certain sized box, otherwise you should forced to buy two seats, or upgrade to business class for more room. There is nothing worse than sitting in economy next to a really fat person...once from AMS to SEA I had to sit next to a guy who was so fat, his fat spilled over my controls for volume, reading light etc. therefore couldn't use them (I didn't feel like saying 'excuse me sir, can I move your fat so I can plug my headphones in...)
Very annoying..

[Nihontraveller]

Eboy,

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!

I just had to pay 500 sterling to BA to carry an excess baggage of 15Kg from Tokyo to London. The guy who checked in behind me weighed at least 30Kg more than me and paid the same ticket price!

Charge by the total weight I say!

[Eboy]

Nihontraveler, you raise an interesting fairness issue I hadn't considered. Why weigh luggage, charge for extra weight, but not weigh passengers? It seems you are being discriminated against due to your physical characteristics (normal weight), for which you could probably sue if you were in the U.S. My Japanese friends are the trimmest and healthiest people I know. One of the healthiest diets in the world. Stay away from those U.S. fast food restaurants.

[turnleft]

Eboy
Just send your self as freight I am sure you would enjoy the company of the animals in the hold. Just where you belong.

[upupnaway]

My biggest bitch is the hypocrisy at Perth Airport in WA, where carry on baggage is weighed before entering customs to make sure it doesn't exceed the 5kgs. Then after going into the departure hall all sorts of duty free goods can be purchased, it is common to see people lugging probably 20kgs onto aircraft. I might add that all sorts of knives can be purchased in these shops with no more checks before boarding aircraft.

[Unwell_Raptor]

I am fatter than average. I am also richer than average. Airlines do not scorn my business - in fact they seem to seek it.

Why can that be?

Pax on Hajj flights are notably underweight by Western standards. They are reputed not to receive the highest levels of service on their journeys.

[Do28]

You might be interested to know that in the US, you all weight the same in the airline's eyes. The airlines use the average weight method to determine the weight of the passengers. Depending on the time of year(an extra 5 pounds is allotted in the winter for heavier clothing) and the airlines program, you all weigh between 160 and 175 lbs. The logic is the hugely obese person will make up for the aneorexic one. Notice I did not say this was at all logical, just simply how things are done.

[SLF]

Thanks, Do28, next time I see a US football team getting on, I think I'll leave...

[Memetic]

Having pondered this issue most times I fly I'd like to see "mass trading" implemented.

Give all PAX an average weight.

Weigh each PAX with all baggage, "Step onto the scale Sir.".

If under the average "all up" weight you can "sell" this to a pool which "overweight" passengers buy from to meet thier excess weight / baggage problem from.

The payment could be in whatever airline points are relevant. With credit lost if not a member and cash if you don't have the points to spend

Only if there are loads of "overweight" passengers would extra fuel be needed, then the usual punative excess baggage charges could apply.

It'll probably never happen, but would be a boon for hand baggage only business travellers, and the obese could always travel light! :)

**Edited for the 1st smellin pistake I spotted, you can keep the rest...**

[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Memetic ]

Memetic : we don't allow unauthorised advertising on PPRuNe, such as that in your signature. I have edited your sig to remove the advertising. ---Mik, aka PPRuNe Dispatcher

[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Dispatcher ]

[Memetic]

Apologies to all for breaking the advertising rule.

Marketing can be (bad) habit forming you know!

To save you asking :), I had included a URL for a commercial site which I am involved with in my signature file, something I usually do, but will not be doing again here!

Memetic

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Memetic ]

[rebeccadblake]

Although I do agree, the following points apply...

*no 2 I think a law comes in to this somewhere becuase its "discrimination" to say that they should have to pay by the pound, + i dont think that would benifit anyone with a eating disorder as this may encourage.

*3 there would be a lot of "heath and safety" matters concerning this as the CAA would have to "agree" the new seats configeration and thats not the airlines issue its the aircraft manufatures

*4"yes" you have rights to your seat space, if there is someone envading your space just say something to him/her asking to move over or perhaps mention to the flight attendant after all its there sole pritoty to make sure you have a good flight.

* at the moment if the airline has given you any DVT prevention awareness i.e pamphalet or simply the air attendents giving you some simple instuctions on how to prevent this then you have no leg to stand on. + remember you are not stuck to your seat for the whole flight!! get up and move around its the lazy bastards that sit in there seat for the whole trip thats the people who are effected by DVT.

(sorry about the **** spelling)

[davidbwa]

Beckxy - just a small point regards my and all other cabin crew responsibility. My sole responsibilty is not to ensure that you have a good flight (although we all do our best most of the time), but it is to hurl you down a slide as the plane burns behind you. I won't move a larger than average pax because they're invading your space, that's for you to negotiate with them. I will move them if they're sat next to an exit and pose a safety threat. The sooner all of our passengers realise that we are there for your safety first and foremost, and then we'll do our best to look after you, the sooner thousands of us "trolley dollies" will be happier. After all, if you were on a train / bus would you hunt out the ticket inspector to move a larger than average person? And what about their rights and dignity too?

[sirwa69]

All Airlines should accept without any hesitation people who are 'gravity challenged'.
And then fly all the fat B@#$ards to Bangladesh where they can leave them to starve for six months untill they are slim enough to be part of the human race again!!!

Just my humble opinion

Mind you I used to fly SAS a lot a few years back and Helga the Wagon Dragon was the fattest of them all!!

:D :D :D

[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: sirwa69 ]

[biglouis]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

As someone who has struggled for most of my life with a weight problem for medical reasons (underactive thyroid) I have to say that I am disgusted by the bigotry and intollerance of most of the "people" (I use the term in its loosest possible sense) who have posted above. The kind of contemptuous language and tone you employ is that usually meted out to rapists, child mollesters and criminals of the worst order. Yes - I have occasionally found myself alongside another large person and have exercised my right to move if there are free seats elsewhere after takeoff. If the greedy airlines had not steadily reduced the amount of space available by packing more and more hapless sardines into planes then the miserable amount currently alloted would not be such a problem. Place the blame where it lies!

[TwinAisle]

On a related subject.... if you are going to charge extra for larger people, you may have to make the seats bigger... I have a similar problem, being 6'5", and I just don't fit into some airlines definition of economy seating. If you're going to charge me more because I take up more space, well you can be sure that I'm going to demand more space for my money. I do that by not flying economy if I cann help it, but then, I'm fortunate enough to be able to.

The point is, if you are seriously proposing charging larger (either taller or heavier) people more for the trip, then don't be at all surprised when they demand - fairly - more room.

[rentaghost]

More room = less seats. Less seats = less money. Less money = less flights, think about it for a moment?

[CoodaShooda]

Rentaghost
Conversely, less seats = need for more flights to meet demand. More flights = more jobs for pilots and cabin crew :) Let the market work out the economics.

Consider also that while the seats are getting smaller, people are getting bigger (CoodaKid#2 is 6'1" and 75Kg at 13. I'm told this is evolution at work and not abnormal) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Kermit 180]

Maybe thats the Airbus theory behind the A380, a sort of airliner for the humungous pax of the future? Bigger pax = bigger seats = more room required = same number of pax as the 747 used to carry when we were smaller.

Kerms <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[flapsforty]

yup, a recurring problem, alas! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
And yes I do feel sorry for pax who do not fit into their seats, one way or another. Never have seen a fat pax bulging over into his neighbour's seat who wasn't acutely aware of it, and usually pretty embarassed by the whole thing.
And indeed, it IS a royal pain, having to cross the ocean sitting next to one of these oversized people.
Same goes for the tall people, it almost hurts to see the way some of them have to sit with their knees around their ears and still they get into problems when their neighbour-row-in-front reclines the seat.

But Beckxy, you can't be serious expecting us FA's to solve these problems?? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
second thoughts, you probably are. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Wouldn't be the first time that an esteemed passenger demands that I single handedly rebuild the aircraft, unscrew the seats from the floor, romove the armrest with my cardboard nail file, or otherwise fix the problem and fix it right NOW!

But you know what? As much as we would love to fix your problems one and all (yes, inspite of the fact that like cloud nine says, we are NOT there solely to make you flight pleasurable, that is in fact our aim always)we are not magicians!

Beckxy and all you othet travelers who seem to think that we could really do whatever you ask of us as long as we really wanted to, please remember that FA's like yourselves, have no influence whatsoever on the configuration of the AC, nor can we miraculously create extra seats out of thin air. We do realize that the comfort we offer is usually not at all what has been promised you in the sleek add campaigns payed for by our companies. (and that we are no-way nearly as pretty as the average Singapore add-girl either <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

But sometimes I wonder if it isn't time for some of you passengers to wake up to the realities of flying?
<ul type="square"> Seats in economy class are generally SMALL. A full economy class is NOT a pleasure to be in. An FA can have 50 pax to look after, so if he or she does not run to get you your coffee the very moment you want it, it's usually not out of malicious intent, but because she is trying to feed the other 49! ATC slots are NOT the fault of the airline, pilot of flight attendant. The Captain did NOT create the foggy conditions at the destination airport just so he could have the pleasure of going into a holding pattern and use up his extra fuel for kicks. We do NOT enjoy you missing your connection, in fact we worry and fret about exactly that as soon as we hear the dreaded word "delay" coming out of the cockpit.
[/list]

Dear passengers, as a rule those of us who work on the aircraft do so because we like trying to make you, our passengers, feel welcome and we enjoy giving you the best servuce we possibly can.
And as for the pilots, you know what? They love their jobs as well. The silly blokes actually try their damnedest to get you there on time every time in the safest possible way!

And if we don't meet your expectations, which we frequently do not, believe me, we M I N D!

So please once in while stop telling us that we are a bunch of stupid trolley tarts who are only in it for the glamour (what frigging glamour? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> ) or overpaid flyboys looking for totty!
And believe us when we tell you the reason for the delay, or when we explain that we can NOT enlarge your seat!

sorry, rant mode induced by a normal six-day work week, sleeping in 5 different hotels, visiting 12 europeean airports briefly, talking pax through 1 go around, 1 all-off-you-get-off-the-ac-quick-as-you-can-cause-we-have-fuel-gushing-from-the-wing, plus all the other usual everyday cr*p..........

[Unwell_Raptor]

Thanks Flaps!

If you take me up on my offer, and we fly off to somewhere really nice, our weight as a twosome should be well under the average.

:)

[christep]

Dear FlappingForty,

Having done over 300 flights as SLF in the last 3 years (most on CX), I have never yet experienced a go-around or fuel gushing out of the wing. Obviously this is a big hole in my life, so please could you tell us which airline I should move to for these delights? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Thanks

[SLF]

Yes, Flaps, that's more excitement than I've seen in 8 years and 450 sectors???

[mutt]

Flaps,

I thought that you gals were trained to do this:

single handedly rebuild the aircraft, unscrew the seats from the floor, romove the armrest with my cardboard nail file, or otherwise fix the problem and fix it right NOW! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I hope that you have recovered from your trip. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Mutt.

[flapsforty]

It's obvious that you gentlemen have entirely gotten my point here! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Well, it made me feel better anyway. :)

U_R name somewhere tropical and warm and I'm your woman. Can I sit in First Class and moan and bitch about the red wine being 2 degrees too cold, the tenderloin not being tender enough and the blanket being scatchy?
Can I please, pretty please??

SLF, you need to get out more, 450 sectors is barnemat!

Mutt, we are really, you are right.
And I am, fully, thank you. <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Kaptin M]

God I love these new, multi-bolted, reinforced cockpit doors - makes life soooo much easier for US! :)
If only ALL pax had the opportunity to experience F/A's with the dedication and love that F40 displays. She really DOES carry a Swiss Army knife for those seat adjustments, you know! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

How many of you SLFer's are aware that the inner arm rests on most aircraft lift up into the recess between the seats? Most of the experienced ones, I guess.
I too, have noticed that as I grow older, the aircraft seats have been downsized, and the police are younger than they used to be!

[Celtic Emerald]

Does these new reinforced doors mean I'll never be able to burst into your cockpit & bite your ear off. Shucks! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Emerald

[Kaptin M]

You wouldn't even be able to get your tongue UNDER the door, CE - unless I stood REALLY close :)

[locky]

Flaps;
Bless you darlin'. Couldn't have put it better if I tried!
I had one portly man stand in front of his seat, call me over and say " I cannot fit!" How do you respond to that? Errrrr let me use my bravado and stretch it for you?
This has and always will be a touchy subject on both the airline and the passenger's accounts.
The grass is always greener on another airline, that is for sure! WELL *air canada* has more leg room! or I usually fly KLM.... I give up!
My favorite is this though. We sell headsets for $5. Our American friends do to.. but take them back! Anyways.. we have to go down the aisle selling our items. People grab them and when we politely ask for the $5.. they throw them back in disgust. well AC gives them for free! Well then sir/maam.. you go fly AC.. pay an extra $1200 for the same leg of your journey for those free headsets!! Don't understand their logic. I better stop here b4 I rant for pages!
* I love my job! I love my job!* :)

[FlyingRabbit]

I am a huge fan of FA's work and posts like this from Flapsforty only confirms my feelings.

Although I do not fly as much as other people here, on my 200 flights on the last two years I have never pushed the call button. I did have my share of emotions, though, including three go-arounds and one hilarious cat hunting inside a 767 from MIA to GIG. :)

[brockenspectre]

As a now much larger than before lady of a relatively significant height I have found that airline seats have become smaller. Why? well precisely because airline seats are designed for the petite misses/misters that fly as cabin crew - the ideal weight/size (for the majority anyway). Those of us who are height or size "challenged" (to use the PC word grrrrrrrr) are not catered for and .. I guess it IS up to us to accept the consequences of our build. I am, of course, going to try dieting for the first time in my life, but I am also going to ensure that I fly in an aisle seat, when I fly transatlantic if I can't afford Business (I fly as SLF personally and no longer for work these days) then I will check which airline of those I am happy to fly with offers the best seat pitch for the price I can afford and...I will do my best not to inconvenience others and not to react to the irritable "gimme my space-ness" of other passengers.

On a slightly related topic... why do these v narrow seats with little leg room permit such a huge degree of seat recline? More scratchiness among pax is caused by the oafs who immediately after takeoff and before a food/drinks service recline their seats fully so that the pax behind has either to do the "domino effect" thing and recline seat OR has to accept that the tray when in position will cut into midriff!! If seats couldn't recline more than a few inches (sorry cm in this metric age!) in Y class then it might help everyone, the larger proportioned as well as the "regulars" :) Just a thought!

[PAXboy]

Brokenspectre: I think the seat recline is a simple bit of marketing nonsense. "Our seats recline XX degrees." Sounds good, until you discover the seat PITCH, which is what is important.

I have an idea but will start a new thread for it!

[Celtic Emerald]

Think you've problems in the cabin try sitting in the jumpseat. There's so little room up there for some seats you'd need those flat cardboard cutout legs you used to get in comics (well some had to do with them instead of a Sindy or Barbie doll <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> ), for other seats you'd be better off with no legs at all below the knee that is <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Sadly I'll doubt I'll ever be in that happy dilemma again courtesy of those fundamentalist friggin freaky religious nutcases whove ruined the fun for the 99.999999% who loved riding jumpseat & wouldn't dream of harming the crew, torment, slagg, tease the pants of them maybe but harm them or endanger the aircraft never! Oh well it was fun while it lasted. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Emerald

[flapsforty]

Aaaaahhhh..... Anjin-San M, we are indeed honoured by your august presence in these lowly catacombs, usually frequented only but such sorry creatures as (overpaying)SLF's and (underpaid)FA's.
But here you are, gracing us all. :)

Mock me as much as you like <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> but intil the day Osama's henchmen changed out working lives for ever, my flightbag did contain the following:<ul type="square"> 1 Leatherman (a pink version, goes byt the name of Juice. Also comes in Lime, Azure and Sunny yellow. A tasteful yet practical present for the next B'day of the woman in your life gentlemen?) Set of top of the range pliers, purchased at that 1 particular chain store in America guaranteed to bring a covetous gleam to the eye of every flight engineer on the planet. 8 screwdrivers with swivel top for easier screwing, 3 philips, 4 normal heads and 1 to check for electrical current. 1 wire stripper, small size assorted tools for which I don't know the english name :) [/list]

All that's left to me now is the pink duct-tape and a roll of the metal speed tape which a nice ground engineer always kindly "forgets" on my galley top when I threaten to run out. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

It's a sad state of affairs, this tool-less life. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Coffee machine broken? Sorry, drink hot water!
No video and 8 more hours to fly? Sorry mate, read a book & thank Bin Laden. Oh, your reading light is out too? Think wholesome thoughts!
Can't hear the music? Whistle to yourself.
Seat recline doesn't work? Sitting up straight is better for your posture anyway.

<img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Kaptin M, even if it strikes your funny bone, pax did appreciate the instant repairs. And even if the problem was beyond my modest skills, just the fact of having someone creep under their chair with a pair of pliers showed them that the company cared. And as such made them feel better.

PS. Muito obrigada Flying Rabbit!

[Kermit 180]

All pax: be grateful that you can sweep through the upper atmosphere in your tiny aluminium hotel at just under the speed of sound in relative comfort. I bet half of you would still moan and groan on a ship 'cos it was rolling too much in the waves or your food was awarm instead of hot!

Kermie

[flapsforty]

Errm, Kermie?
Think you've got your numbers wrong here mate! :)
If our pax are anything to go by, it would be no more than 1 in about 500 who would moan and groan.

I can honestly say that by far the largest majority of our passengers is a pleasant lot. Even if they often board the AC with that stern "don't you pull any sh't on me" look on their face, they tend to defrost rapidly.

A joke, a chat, and just plain good service is enough to make most people happy.
And NO I've not been smoking our national delight, and neither am I soft in the head. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Because if this wasn't the way it at work, I would have left this job a long time ago!

[Kermit 180]

Number are obviously wrong. Announcement: All pax please pardon me.

[Jerka]

Friends...

Careful you don't descriminate here......we have all seen the 1.85 m high guy who weighs 130 kg without an ounce of fat on him [or her]....then the 1.50 m high guy [or girl] weighing in at 100 kg of pure slob.....

Careful...that 130 kg guy may know who you are...? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Groundgripper]

It's not only on the planes, folks. There was an item on tv yesterday (teletext) about an oversize passenger travelling to Manchester airport by train who fell asleep during the journey and slid off the seat and under the table, which was bolted down. It took the staff three quarters of an hour to get him out, delaying all trains by (another)hour! I can't remember if he missed his flight.

[PAXboy]

This is slightly off topic but refers to Flaps and her superb set of tools. All of them, fine tuned and ready to be brought into action the moment that she needs them (Ooops, end of fantasy minute).

As I was saying ... on-board repairs. On Lufthansa last month on a long haul (MUC/JNB) and found that my light did not work. The F/As and I also discovered that those lovely people at Airbus made it a snap-on/off fitting that wouldn't snap!

The Cabin Services Director took a hand and tried too. After about five minutes, I suggested that we leave it and I woul duse my emergency pocket torch.

She insisted on continuing and got another member of staff and using a knife from my dinner tray, they fixed it. Boy was I impressed!

Incidentally, the cutlery in C was all metal and the knives were very sharp!

[ORAC]

Alas, on Air France the linen is lovely and the cutlery bright and shiny - except for the plastic knives. Sigh.

I was surprised last week on the CGD-LAX flight by the continuous stream of passengers taken on visits to the cockpit.

[Capn Notarious]

Could someone tell. What about the issues of emergency disembarkation. Is the larger pax, a potential hinderance to the rest of the SLF. Are seats allocated,with these factors being considered by the check in staff?

[Xenia]

Obese pax are not allowed to sit by emergency exits. Check in staff are aware of this. In the event of an emergency, if an obese pax was seated in a row where his/her nearest exit was, let's say a tiny over/underwing exit....well if the emergency is "premeditated" (time to prepare the cabin)the CC will use their common sense to relocate the pax to a location where he/she, hopefully, will be able to evacuate by a door (more room than an over/underwing exit!). Bearing in mind sometimes...not all the exits will be available for evacuation (fire, obstruction or hazard). Personally I believe that when "the time comes" adrenaline will play a major role...and believe me...everybody regardless of size and weight will get out of the A/C!
As Flaps said we'll do our best to please our pax, if it is in our possibilities, such as relocate "uncomfortable" pax to another seat (if available) in the same class the pax is travelling.
Personally I am friendly and understanding with all my pax....I don't agree with treating them like "cargo" and make them pay for the excess weight they are carrying with them...we should not forget that some people have medical conditions, some others are already embarassed themselves....
At the end of the day we are all human, and we all deserve respect.

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[flyblue]

Visits to the cockpit in AF? I don't think so ORAC! It is a huge NO NO! . .It is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN, and I don't think any Capt would blatantly break a written rule. Even if he decided to do it (due to sudden loss of reason)he would be IMMEDIATELY reported to : the Company, the Unions, the DGAC (French CAA), the press and Pprune not to forget the Golf League and the Salmon Fishing Fraternity.. .Maybe you witnessed people going to buy duty free items in the galley, I don't know, But it is sure : not to the cockpit! Almost all of them are locked in troughout the flight anyway!

[sokoyu]

Getting back to the original theme of the thread. The flights along the West African coast can be real fun. Large female traders fly between Lagos and Abidjan carrying huge amounts of goods and very often being huge themselves. Sitting next to a 'Mama Benz' is not the most comfortable experience. I recall seeing one apparently massive lady go to a seat opposite me, but when she unwrapped all of the printed cloths (pagnes) and towels that she was carrying on her person, she was actually quite slight.

Seriously, my gripe on many flights - especially African ones - is not about oversized passengers but the incredible amount of hand luggage that folks take on to the plane. I've had to sit with my knees around my ears because the person next to me had a suitcase under my feet. The FA was not interested.

[Xenia]

Wait until Flaps will read this... :) . .Again F/A's fault, eh? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> . .I don't mean to start a polemic here, God save me from that! but I believe check in staff should be aware of hand luggage, earlier in advance than F/As.... .As a F/A I wish (please please please, someone grant me this wish) I could have a little machine at the boarding door, like the one of "darling I shrank the children" , but unfortunately neither Boeing or Airbus are interested in F/As input <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> And...yes...u guessed right! I would shrink all the hand luggages in order to fit all of them...in a seatpocket! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> I am dreaming for that day...."Captain...I shrank the cabin bags" :) :) :)

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[sokoyu]

Whoops, didn't mean to raise a problem. Overlarge cabin baggage should be picked up at the check in desk, at the gate or at boarding. If all of these things miss out, then the FA probably has to do something. In the case I referred to my comfort was compromised (only for a short flight, so it wasn't too bad) but my safety was very definitely not what it should have been.

Let me go out on a limb... In my experience there are two worlds of passenger airlines. There are the big airlines flying between the major commercial centres, then there are other, smaller lines that fly between cities in the developing world and never get to LHR or JFK. Standards of customer care and safety management in some of these smaller airlines can, at times (note I don't say always) be appaling. Most of my flying has been done on smaller airlines betwen cities that you can only find on a good atlas - and I love it. But there is something really special about slipping into a BA or KLM seat for a flight back home and knowing that you will be looked after and not shouted at by the staff!

[PAXboy]

The problem with hand baggage will, in my view, always exist on the small carriers. The reason that some of the big carriers are addressing it now, is because they have the exccuse of 9/11. I have travelled in Africa and seen the sights of which you speak! Not to mention watching what pax brought along when boarding at HKG. 25" TV is a standard item.

I see it thus: All carriers hate oversie and weight hand luggage. All know that it impacts onsaftey. To date, all have ignored it and adjusted their payload calculations accordingly. Simple reason: Force of market.

Pax expect to get away with anything, if carrier refuses - pax goes to next airline and moans at all their pals about 'unreasonable carrier.

Also, in the US, as carriers moved to Hub & Spoke, and introduced more plane changes, more bags went missing. SOme were stolen but mostly just went astray, sp US pax decided to carry everything inside "Coz then those pesky airline varmints won't be able tuh luze it." The carriers knew that, if they protested, they would lose pax.

As schedules and turnarounds tightened, the problem increased, so the carry-on lifestyle <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> came into being and was seemlessly extended to international routes.

Let us image that carrier wants to reduce cabin bags volume + weight.

1) Tell pax wehen they book flight (irrespective of method). Pax ignores this.. .2) Check-in agent knows that if they stick to the rules, they will be faced with 100+ shouting matches and the flight will never close. They try and get the worst offenders to check bags.

2) Gate agent knows the same and might be able to remove one or two more bags.

3) FA sees them board and knows all of the above.

So, until ALL the carriers are forced to do something, nothing will happen. No one will do anything to force any one until many pax die as a result of cabin bags. Unlikely, as the fire will probably destroy the evidence.

SO!!!! The problem is like the speed limit. In the UK, motorways are limited at 70mph and many do 80 or more but the police do not really get interested until 80/85. Folks want the speed limit changed to 80. Poloce say No, because folks will then do 90!

Same with cabin bags!! Here endeth the rant and, besdies, this thread is about obese pax not their luggage!

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: PAXboy ]</p>

[flapsforty]

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> "Captain I shrunk the cabin bags??! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> . .Xen, that's in the same Utopia Airlines where all pilots drink their coffee "black, no sugar please Hon", ground staff always asks "Are you ready for boarding" before[B] they send 200 odd pax down the gate, adn passengers actually [B]watch the flight safety demonstration without me having to turn the whole thing into a 3 ring circus just to make them look up from their newspapers, right? . .That same mythical aircraft where the food we serve to the people that pay our wages is ample and tasty, where we can offer all of them a choice in what they'd like to eat, where our own food would look fit for human consumption and not be labelled "best eaten before march 2004" <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .That joyous Nirvana built by McBoeinBus which flies perfectly horizontal instead of slightly nose-up, where all seats are next to the aisle, seat pitch never kills a pax, the toilets never jointly decide to stop eating sh*t over Siberia, all reading lights and video systems function, galleys are roomy, well lit and don't have a polar wind blasting in one's face when one is finally able to comfortably sit down on a metal container dragged out of the wall to enjoy one's attractively presented and nutrtiously balanced meal from one's lap on a 14 hour stretch?. .Those Flying Dreamcraft populated by handsome understanding pilots, FA's who genuinely feel that good service is a matter of course and professional pride (and whose jaws never ache from trying to smile 900 times between Europe and the USA), passengers who are civilised and cultured, wise in the ways of travel and appreciative of service rendered, who never drop their food trays on the floor nor snap their fingers at the Miss World look alikes who anticipate their slightest whims.

........is startled from this happy dream by accidentally looking at her pay-slip........ <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

. .Sokoyu exactly WHAT do you expect an FA to do about the handluggage when all the above mentioned part of the chain have studiously ignored it huh?? Eat it? Shred it? Magically make it disappear? MAte, I'd love not having to stand at the door of the AC with my little pink measuring tape.Not having to behave like a frigging school marm telling otherwise perefctly intelligent people that despite what they are trying to tell me their handluggage in fact does exceed both the horizontal size limit, the vertical size limit and the weght limit. Not having to take away people's family heirloom living-room-wall size painting which "surely you have room for this somewhere Miss?".

Sadly (or happily depending on who you fly for/with) it is possible to completely avoid all the hand luggage hassle. I often get to work by flying SAS. Not only do they have a very inflexible and sensible handluggage policy, they actually strictly enforce it as well. Their pax know this (and Scandi's are a well disciplined bunch when sober) and therefor do not even dare to try any cr*p with oversized luggage.. .Ergo, space enough on even their smallest aircraft for everybody's bags and never a possible flight safety risk due over stuffed luggage bins.

I always observe this with great envy.

[PAXboy]

Flaps: Right On! I agree about SAS and their pax, watching the Germans is equally instructive.

I worked in MUC for 18 months and used LH almost exclusively. Were the pax disciplined? Yes. Did they try and bring on overlarge bags? Yes - but not as large as you see in the UK!!!

The cabin baggage problem, as I said above, is intractable until people die. I read in R&N that some folks are talking about banning alcohol. They will always tinker at the edges. If we had firm rules by all carriers, backed up by the relevant Air Authority ...

Ooops, there goes another pig! For as long as someone can make more money by cutting seat pitch, allowing extra cabin bags and letting drunk people onboard - then it shall be so.

I have very simple rules. The first one is that I don't fly charter. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">