The Britannia

[Varipitch]

Merely a reminder that rear facing pax seats CAN still be seen. All you have to do is to be at Kemble on either the first or third Sunday each month between 1230 and 1600 and the members of the Britannia Preservation Trust who lovingly look after the former Royal Air Force Transport Command Britannia XM496, will welcome you on board.
No boarding cards necessary

[Proplinerman]

Yep, did that last August on a Sunday and I was warmly welcomed. I'd never been inside a RAF Brit before and the seats struck me as unusual, so much so that I had a picture taken of me sitting in one of them. As luck would have it however, weather was dull, so my external shots could have looked better. Also visited the Bristol museum at Kemble the same day-not bad at all.

[Tankertrashnav]

Just wonder how many lives would have been saved over the years if rearward facing seats were the norm. The BM 737 crash at Kegworth is a case in point. I spent my whole RAF career flying backwards, either as a passenger on Brits,etc, or as a nav on Victors and even now it seems a bit odd sitting "facing the engine".

[Warmtoast]

Rearward facing seats - RAF Brits

Here's what they looked like in RAF service (from a Bristol Aircraft brochure handed out at the 1961 Paris Air Show where I was with the RAF Brit (XL 660) on static display). Two crews from 511 and 99 Sqn were at Paris for the show. 511 flew XL 660 out, we (99 Sqn) flew it back.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin2Medium.jpg

Cabin looking forward

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin3Medium.jpg

Cabin looking aft

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin-MedEvacLay.jpg

Medevac Layout

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/99SqnBritanniaParis-May1961-2-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/99SqnBritanniaParis-May1961.jpg

XL 660 on Show in Paris (Le Bourget) - 24 May - 5 June 1961

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/LeBourget1961-Cropped.jpg

Lots of other RAF aircraft on show including a Vulcan, Victor, Argosy, Javelin. Others flew in the air display but are not shown here.

[Proplinerman]

If you want a good laugh involving a Britannia in a film, then have a look at this:

YouTube - "Aeronaves de Mexico Bristol Britannia"-1959 (http://tinyurl.com/yapcrvz)

[RampTramp]

Brilliant! What ever happened to continuity?????

RT

[safetypee]

Anyone recall / participated in a Cranwell ‘expedition’ to the USA in 1965’ish. Two Britannia’s visited Washington via Gander, Norfolk, Omaha, and Colorado Springs – with a bit of an airshow? Return via New York and Gander.
IIRC one aircraft had a gear problem and the Atlantic leg was flown gear down.
The USAF could not understand the rearward facing seats.

[Blacksheep]

Rear facing seats would not have saved many lives. In a high energy impact accident the seats would have broken away from the rails (they're only "9g" seats after all) and instead of being smashed head first into the seat in front, passengers would have had the seat behind smash into their face instead. Either way, all the seats end up in a pile of assorted bits of shredded aluminium alloy and smouldering upholstery. Surviving an accident is a matter of luck, whichever way you're facing. Smoke hoods under the seat would be a far better safety enhancement, but no-one has ever fitted them so far.

[Lukeafb1]

This thread reminds me of my first posting overseas to Cyprus. I was young and green and worked on TASF (Transit Aircraft Servicing Flight). One morning, I was sent out to the pan with the rest of the ground crew, to send off a Britannia transiting from Lyneham to Hong Kong. The chief of the ground crew saw me wandering around with my hands in my pockets and sent me to engine three.

"On start up, just hold the prop until the engine pulls it out of your hand and walk away".

I looked at him incredulously.

"You want me to do WHAT?" He repeated his instructions.

"Fu** Off!" says I, for which I got 3 days jankers.

I also got to hold said prop. I had visions of being shot like a projectile over to Limassol. In the event, it turned out to be the standard operating procedure, especially if the wind was turning the prop (gently) in the opposite direction to normal rotation.

And you really did wait until the engine had started, let it pull the prop out of your hand and walk away!!

[5552N0426W]

Used to be in ATC at BZZ and watching wet starts on the Brits was spectacular. Did the long trip to Akrotiri and onwards to Masirah looking at where I've been.

Ah! them were the days.

:ok:

[Wander00]

I was on that trip - 1965, to Washington, Colorado Springs and two days R & R in New York. They even took some of the Americam cadets "mountain flying" in Colorado. Sadly my two hosts were killed in Viet Nam, and biggest finger wag at the briefing was "Don't mention the Selma (civil rights) march".

[Warmtoast]

Blacksheep

Rear facing seats would not have saved many lives

Thre's an interesting article where the advantages of rearward facing seats were put forward. The article entitled “On Going Forward Backwards” appeared in Flight Magazine for 16th July 1954 here:

1954 | 2070 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1954/1954%20-%202070.html)


This inter-alia states:


…………..The advantages claimed for the aft-facing seat can be summed up very simply. A large majority of casualties in aircraft accidents result from the deceleration produced by impact with die ground, varying from, say, lg in a smooth belly-landing and 20-40g in more severe crashes leaving the fuselage wholly or partly intact. Properly supported, the human frame can withstand the highest deceleration likely to be encountered in any crash which is basically “survivable” — one in which complete crushing, burning or disintegration of the fuselage does not occur. Protagonists of the backward-facing seat maintain that this is the best method of providing such protection because (a) it places a shield between the body and the most likely sources of injury and (b) because the back of the human body is stronger than the front. Expressed in its simplest terms, the argument for the aft-facing seat is that in any given set of circumstances it is safer than the forward-facing seat.
Evidence to support this theory is convincing but by no means conclusive from a technical viewpoint. Indeed, as no two accidents can be identical in their nature, it is difficult to see how conclusive proof could ever be obtained. Essential details of the major accidents to aircraft equipped with backward-facing seats are as follows:

On December 20th, 1950, an R.A.F. Hastings crashed at Benina after an airscrew blade had torn into the fuselage, severely injuring one of the crew and jamming the elevator and rudder controls. While attempting to land on two engines it undershot and crashed heavily. All five members of the crew were killed (a point which indicates the severity of the impact without necessarily affecting the seating controversy), but the 26 passengers, who, with one exception, were in 15g rearward-facing seats, escaped without serious injury. On February 18th, 1951, an R.A.F. Valetta crashed into a wooded hill near Stockholm during a single-engined overshoot in bad visibility. One of the crew of three was killed and all 18 passengers, in 20g rearward-facing seats, escaped with minor injuries. Another Valetta crashed near Boscombe Down on November 25th, 1952, after being in collision with a Venom. The nine passengers (paratroops) stepped out of their rearward facing seats unhurt, and the crew of four all received injuries. In a third Valetta accident, at Lyneham, on January 20th this year, one of the crew of five was killed and four injured; the six passengers, all in aft-facing seats, received only very slight injuries.

Both theory and practice, then, show that there is a strong case for fitting rearward-facing seats in transport aircraft.


There is also a historical article about the US Navy adopting rearward facing seats here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/backissues/1950s/1952/dec52.pdf

[Wander00]

Rearward-Facing Seats-my memory (dim and distant) is that a rearward facing seat can be engineerd to withstand higher g-loading than a forward facing seat because the occupant is better restrained, hence the higher chance of surviving if facing aft

[Cornerstone958]

So what was the seating plan for VIP Flights?
CS

[JW411]

I was going to post the story of Hastings TG574 and how rearward facing seats saved everyone in the back, but that is too much of thread drift away from the Britannia.

I have therefore started a new thread.

It is a wonderful story of amazing airmanship so please read it.

[Proplinerman]

Here's a photo I took at a Biggin Hill air fair, in May 1974, of an IAS Britannia. There was also an Air Spain machine present-you can see it just behind the IAS machine, but my photo of that is too poor to show here.

JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-AOVS (CN: 13430) IAS Cargo Airlines Bristol Britannia Series 312F by Michael Blank (http://tinyurl.com/ybdehx5)

[1970s Spotter]

. . .And I was there! I am probably one of the 13 year old boys decked out in a beige nylon polo shirt with brown slacks you can see kicking the tyres. We picniced near the two Brits during the Air Show. Amazing to think that one could just walk around these whispering giants un-checked. Note lack of graffiti/tagging!

Getting back on track, I'd love to hear from anyone who flew the RAF Britannias post-RAF i.e. with the likes of Aer Turas, Geminair, Air Faisal, Young Cargo etc etc.

Mike, thanks for sharing the photo..
Mike Z

[sisemen]

Circuit bashing in the Brit was no joke - especially if you were in the last seat at the back. The rear fuselage corkscrewed around like a maniac. That coupled with the smell of the dunnies was enough to make you want to reach for the puke bag.

[Fly380]

I flew Britannias NCD, NCE, OVP, OVS with Lloyd Internatioal Airways 1970 - 1971. Anyone else?

[Proplinerman]

". . .And I was there! I am probably one of the 13 year old boys decked out in a beige nylon polo shirt with brown slacks you can see kicking the tyres. We picniced near the two Brits during the Air Show."

Thanks for that Mike. I was 16 then and I'm pretty sure that I took that photo very shortly after getting off our "Norwag" coach very close to the Brit's. I also remember walking a very long way airside. "Norwag" was the North West Aviation Group: anyone else here remember them and Eric Rowell?

The photos I took that day were amongst the earliest I took on my first reasonably decent camera-a Ricoh 500G-that my father had bought me a short time before. Sad to say, I can't remember anything of the display that day.

[HZ123]

Just a point in the 70-80s we had a number of Tridents at BEA and BA that had rear facing seats. Now in Club / Business sleeper seats it is the norm to have a number of rear facing.

A very interesting thread gentlemen!

[VictorGolf]

According to my passenger logbook (sad, I know) I came out of Amsterdam "backwards" in Trident 2 G-AVFA on flight number BE 511 on 5/3/72. And where did those 38 years go?

[The SSK]

From memory the T1s and T2s had one or two rows, the T3s had about seven. Used them many times and didn't like the the sensation of 'hanging from the lapstrap' in the climb.

Also a Malev Tu-134 where the first two rows faced each other across a fixed table

[falcon12]

An understandable reaction to being asked to hold a prop.

An incident at LGW in the 70's resulted in the guy holding the prop getting hit by the blade that was in the 3 o'clock position when it arrived at where he was still standing. The reason he was still there was that the engine started but the blades didn't move as the rear turbine blades were stuck on the turbine shroud, which is driven by the propeller shaft. He pushed, it freed but he was hit by the next blade.

Fortunately he survived but all were wiser to the power of the propellor.

[ian16th]

As a once upon a time Pax in Transport Command Britt's, let me point out what it was like to be SLF in them.

Previously all of my time as SLF on Transport Command A/C was on Beverley's and Hastings. Including a trip from Marham to Mauripur and return that was 3 days each way :bored:

The Britt was quiet, it was smooth, it was fast, it was pressurised, it had a proper galley with hot food and drinks, so no more 'lunch boxes' and that 'orrible 'Orange Drink'. You could smoke on board, the seats reclined but the most welcome luxury of all, it had FLUSH TOILETS!!!!:ok::ok::ok::ok:

No more stinking Elsans.:eek:

[finallyfinished]

I have many fond memories of flights on the Brit , the best was most probably when we (the british Army ) were airlifted out of Aden in 1967. We were piled onto Hercules aircraft in Aden and flown to Sharjah (approx 12000 troops) We then waited at Sharjah until the constant flow of RAF transport command Brit's arrived to take us all home. I was one of the lucky ones travelling on an early flight with the Argylle and Sutherland Highlanders (Of Mad Mitch Fame ) and we were welcomed at Akrotiri at 5.45 am with a pyramid of cans of lager from all the boys there. I think we slept most of the remaining seven hours to Lyneham. Fond memories.

[Wander00]

Ref posts 7 & 11 - anyony other ppruners on that trip?

[Bus429]

Well, I'm sure I mentioned this in a similar thread a few years ago but...
My introduction to aircraft maintenance came about because of Air Faisal and the Brit. They operated live and dead cargo out of Bombay to the ME in the mid-70s and the crews/maintenance guys stayed at a hotel close to my home (we were ex-pats). Regular trips to the airport ensued and I learned - or so I thought - about iso-speedic switches, HP/LP cocks (I got to start the engines, too), prop computers etc. A friendly FE soon had me on an overnight flight to Dubai and back (thanks, Eddie) and I had quite a few after that.
A few months later I moved back to the UK and started to work for Air Faisal's maintenance organisation at Luton. Less happy times, to be honest but I did have a long adventure to Bombay and back before I left to join AEL/MAEL in 1978. I've done the prop hold, too!
Still got to work on Brits: Redcoat, Afrek, African Safari, Aer Turas, Katale, Gemini (Geminair?) and Cubana stick in the mind; a mixture of 253s and 312s.
Who the hell designed the torqumeter installation? One continuous run of capillary from the firewall to cockpit (but it would have been difficult to do otherwise with an instrument and sensor of that nature).

[HZ123]

This post is so interesting, only downside is agism. Do you remember the series on TV maybe the BBC about a cargo airline operating out of LTN. A Brit was used in the filmiing a lot a Redcoat ??. The star of it played a dectective more recently - Adam Dalglesish??

On another note at LHR in 1970 on the North side were 2 Brits parked up I remember them so well and were they 'North East Ailines'

Keep the thread going?

[Ten West]

Just a point in the 70-80s we had a number of Tridents at BEA and BA that had rear facing seats. Now in Club / Business sleeper seats it is the norm to have a number of rear facing.

A very interesting thread gentlemen!

That's interesting! In the 90's I worked on the restoration of Duxford's Trident G-AVFB.
I seem to remember that I noticed on a visit a while back that the current maintenance guys had installed the seats in a rear-facing pattern. Would Foxtrot Bravo have been one of those so configured?

[The SSK]

HZ123: On another note at LHR in 1970 on the North side were 2 Brits parked up I remember them so well and were they 'North East Ailines'

BKS Air Transport (of fond memory) obtained some ex-BOAC 102s to replace their Ambassadors, notably on the LHR-Newcastle run. As a spotter at NCL I watched the first one arrive – the biggest aircraft ever to grace NCL at that time – and as BOAC employee I had my first-ever staff travel trip in one (I actually got bumped off the first flight I tried – they had a seat for me but no weight available for my bag).

BKS became Northeast. It, along with Cambrian, were absorbed into the BEA family and were given similar colour schemes, Northeast was yellow and Cambrian an unusual shade of purple.

Even on the one-hour trip to Newcastle the elderly Brit was an ordeal, with a very intrusive vibration-noise cycle. Throttling back at top of descent came as a blessed relief.

[FLCH]

Do you remember the series on TV maybe the BBC about a cargo airline operating out of LTN. A Brit was used in the filmiing a lot a Redcoat ??. The star of it played a dectective more recently - Adam Dalglesish??


It was called Buccaneer back in 1980, didn't last long, I forget the name of the Britannia they flew.

[falcon12]

The series was about Redcoat Air Cargo. The aircraft was VS I believe and I think the aircraft's name was Amy, the daughter of the founder Mike - and now memory fails me - I cant remember his surname. Ex navigator from African Safari Airways/African Cargo Airlines.

I remember the series writer coming to Manston and sitting with Dad Newphry, an ex ASA/ACA skipper, and myself whilst stories were told about the adventures whilst flying cargo in Africa and other parts of the world. Always thought there was a book in it......

[Flightwatch]

The BKS Brit 102s were G-ANBD, H, K and the infamous G-APLL, re-registered by Sir Basil Smallpiece after a disasterous tour of East Africa with (I think) the prime minister of the day when registered G-ANBG where it spent most of the time AOG and was consequently nicknamed "No Bloody Good".

Only one, G-ANBK, made it into Northeast where it was used largely as a back-up for the Trident 1Es and the occasional IT, of the others BD and LL were broken up in Newcastle in late 69/early 70 and BH in Southend in 9/69. BK was eventually scrapped in NCL in March 72 and was the only one to bear the yellow Northeast colour scheme.

Spent many hours dead-heading up and down Amber 1 in them - the cockpit was like the bridge of a ship.

[Proplinerman]

I only got to see one of these-and that by the skin of my teeth-when I transited LHR in December 1971 and saw NBK just before she was retired, at the end of that month. One of the best "cops" of my early planespotting days-I began in April 1971.

[Bus429]

A few maintenance nightmares such as adjusting the SEP 2 autopilot, replacing inverters (ors), all those batteries, TRU regulator packs. Lovely to fly in 'though and an abiding memory was watching the (ex) military pilots show the flight engineer the torque they wanted using their fingers instead of the intercom (or have I mis-remembered?)

[Amos Keeto]

I think I am right in saying the rear-facing seats in Kemble's Britannia actually came from a Nimrod, as XM496 was used as a civilian freighter after its RAF service and all seats had been taken out and scrapped by the time it was retired?

[Tankertrashnav]

Used them many times and didn't like the the sensation of 'hanging from the lapstrap' in the climb.



Don't think that sensation would be apparent in the Brit, somehow, don't remember it from my own trooping flights Certainly wasn't in the back of a Victor K1 with a full fuel load, when the main indication the aircraft was climbing was the almost imperceptible rotation of the needle in the altimeter we had down the back!

Warmtoast Thanks for the article on rear facing seat safety. Maybe a psychological thing, but I still feel safer facing backwards.

[brakedwell]

Redcoat??
The series was about Redcoat Air Cargo. The aircraft was VS I believe and I think the aircraft's name was Amy, the daughter of the founder Mike - and now memory fails me - I cant remember his surname. Ex navigator from African Safari Airways/African Cargo Airlines.

Mike Owen. :ok:

I think I am right in saying the rear-facing seats in Kemble's Britannia actually came from a Nimrod, as XM496 was used as a civilian freighter after its RAF service and all seats had been taken out and scrapped by the time it was retired?

No, they are bog standard RAF Britannia seats.

[Tempsford]

G-BRAC was called 'Christian' I believe, and that was also a Redcoat Brit. 'VS' was ex many civilian operators while 'AC' was ex RAF.

[mustbeaboeing]

With regard to the comments about the TV programme featuring a Bristol Britannia..........

The blurb from the book of the series............. BUCCANEER by Eric Paice. Published by Arrow Books 1980.

"Tony Blair is a gambler - and this time he is gambling on making enough money to buy a new aircraft before the old one falls apart.

He has started his new airfreight business almost literally on a wing and a prayer, with an aircraft that has seen better days, a few old friends to help him fly and a mountain of debts. Even to Tony Blair the odds must seem against him. Surrounded by people who would betray him as soon as look at him, Blair is a man alone. A man with a dark and dangerous continent to beat; a man with his back against the wall.
But only a man like Blair could take the knocks and dangers of the skyfreighting business. Only a gambler like Blair could stand a chance of winning."

The book quotes the TV series being written by NJ Crisp and Eric Paice.
The series starred.... Bryan Marshall, Clifford Rose, Pamela Salem, Shirley Anne Field, Caroline Courage and Mark Jones.
Produced by Gerald Glaister; Story Editor John Brason; Technical Advisor Mike Langley

[Proplinerman]

"BUCCANEER by Eric Paice. Published by Arrow Books 1980.

"Tony Blair is a gambler - and this time he is gambling on making enough money to buy a new aircraft before the old one falls apart."

Interesting choice of name for the main character, in light of subsequent events. Also, oddly, Eric Paice (and that exact spelling of Paice) is the name of the main villain in one of my favourite films of all time, "Get Carter."

[wapses]

When I joined Caledonian Airways in April 1966 the fleet consisted of six Brits and a DC7C. Wonderful aircraft, the Brits. My first flight was on one ... LGW/CIA/LGW ... and made many transatlantic flights on them. Much much more comfortable and pleasant than flying economy today.

As for movies ... part of A Dandy in Aspic starring Laurence Harvey (1968) was filmed aboard a Caledonian Brit at LGW.

[Leadsgenerator]

Interesting article about aviation. gr8 Work

[Chris Scott]

My fondest recollections of Brits are from the early days (BOAC and Hunting Clan), as a spotter (and twice SLF) at/from SAY. In later years, in the UK, I usually had my head down in some other cockpit.

The sound of 4 Protei (?) taxiing towards you must be unique. Nothing like a Dart or, for that matter, a Tyne. When throttled back, the props made a strange whooshing sound, reminiscent of a waterfall. This seemed quickly to subside, perhaps as the throttles (sorry, power levers?) were edged forward a bit. Swinging past, then turning on to the runway, the pitch of the noise barely changed as take-off power was applied, although the volume became more urgent. The Britannia must have had one of the smallest noise footprints of any large aeroplane.

The Aero Mexico soundtrack being such a travesty, does anyone know of a decent sound recording?

[bingofuel]

There is a DVD called 'The RAF The unseen years 1960-61' which has some good footage of Transport Command and the Britannia amongst other stuff. Seems fairly readily available via mail order. Some of the older ex truckies may even recognise the odd face here and there!!

[Bus429]

Just search You Tube and you'll find loads, including this one about a Mexican carrier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHFSBRYVRjQ&feature=PlayList&p=81C78A20FC2A9A5B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=50) (film-makers think all aircraft with props must be pistons)

[brakedwell]

Some of the older ex truckies may even recognise the odd face here and there!!

At that time the Britannias were the shiny fleet. :cool: Truckies appeared with the Fat Alberts in 1966/7.

Sadly, most of the characters who appeared in that film are no longer with us. One of them was the captain of the Redcoat Brit that crashed near Boston MA as a result of severe icing.

[bingofuel]

I apologise to brakedwell for calling the shiny fleet crews 'truckies' I forgot they did not wear flying suits but flew wearing blue or khaki and wore ties!

[sled dog]

bingofuel, you forgot the long-sleeved shirts :{

[brakedwell]

. . . . and the Changi Village name tags :ok:

[bingofuel]

Not to mention the various shades of Khaki on the made to measure uniforms.

[Proplinerman]

And here is a photo of XM496, the sole surviving RAF Britannia, taken at its final resting place, Kemble, on 30-8-09.

DSC0025 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/y8w2cp7)

[sled dog]

I have a Corgi limited edition model of XM496, took over a year on and off to locate it, quite rare. A nice reminder of when i was on the "real thing", and the other 21 :cool:

[brakedwell]

A nice reminder of when i was on the "real thing", and the other 21.

Surely you mean the other 22 - unless of course you joined 99 or 511 after the Aden incident. :8

[sled dog]

brakedwell, i did indeed join the fleet after XL638 was written off on 12 October 1967 after a runway over run landing at Khormaksar. Great a/c.

[forget]

Not to mention the various shades of Khaki on the made to measure uniforms.

This effort from Bomber would take some beating.:hmm:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/kd-1.jpg

[sisemen]

XL638 was written off on 12 October 1967 after a runway over run landing at Khormaksar

I, along with other members of the Mountain/Desert Rescue Team from Sharjah, were waiting at Muharraq for that aircraft to take us to Akrotiri ready for Exercise Nejat (a mountain rescue exercise in Iran).

We then spent the next 10 days holed up in the hell hole of transit accommodation (3 inches between beds) waiting for the unlikely event of spare seats on any other aircraft before we eventually gave up and headed back to Sharjah.

Nothing to do except sun bathe, sightsee and get pissed (which is why Harry W ended up pissing on the end of my bed after a session !)

[Loadmaster307]

Yea...Happy days. I was a Loadmaster with Lloyds until they went bust leaving me in Hong Kong with no money and no means of getting home. Benline (Our partners in HK refused to advance me anything) I eventually went to a bar frequented by the crews and met a Trans Meridian crew who allowed me to work my passage home.

[brakedwell]

Loadmaster307 - i found myself in a very tricky situation in April 1975 when my (IAS) Britannia G-AOVS was impounded in Damascus because of outstanding overflight fees owed by Lloyd International from when they operated the aircraft. We were carrying a Boeing repair team and all the gear to repair an Egyptair B707 which had aquaplaned off the side of the runway and shed two engines. Pressure from Boeing saved the day.

[Fly380]

Gosh and to think Lloyd International was owned by one of the richest men in the world. Mr Ortiz Petino - a Bolivian tin billionaire. I was with them when they went bust on 16th June 1972. I was on the 707 then and it was the day before we started an El Al passenger contract from London and Paris ( 2 aircraft) to Tel Aviv. Rumour had it at the time that the bank that put up the money for the leases of some of the aircraft also had Arab interests and so they pulled the plug on Lloyds. A great shame. It was a great airline to work for even though it only had 5 aircraft. 3 707's and 2 Britannias.:{