NH-90 problems [Archive]

ifsknt

25th Feb 2010, 23:47

Looks like Australia will not be buying the NFH-90 without a competition from the MH-60R. Press release below from 25th February 2010

New Naval Combat Helicopter

The Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, today announced that the Government has given first pass approval for a major project to provide the Australian Defence Force with a new naval combat helicopter.

Project AIR 9000 Phase 8 is included in the Defence Capability Plan to provide naval warships with a new combat helicopter.

Senator Faulkner said that two potential helicopters had been identified. “The Government has decided that the new helicopter will be either the Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin built MH-60R sourced through the United States Navy, or the NATO Helicopter Industries NH90 NFH sourced through Australian Aerospace”.

Senator Faulkner said that a competition would be held between the two helicopter options which would be cost-capped by the Defence Materiel Organisation through the tender process.

“The new naval combat helicopter will enhance the Royal Australian Navy’s ability to conduct a range of maritime operations. It will be capable of undertaking anti-submarine warfare and will be equipped with air-to-surface missiles,” Senator Faulkner said.

“This fleet of combat helicopters will form the centerpiece of naval combat aviation to beyond 2040.

“The new helicopter will greatly extend the eyes and ears of our surface fleet and allow the conduct of combat and support operations in the complex and demanding maritime environment.

“They will replace the current fleet of Seahawk anti-submarine warfare helicopters and fill an operational need left by the cancellation of the Seasprite project,” Senator Faulkner said.

The procurement of the new naval combat helicopters as a matter of urgency was announced in the 2009 Defence White Paper. This decision demonstrates the Government’s commitment to this important Defence capability.

Sufficient helicopters will be acquired to provide at least eight helicopters concurrently embarked on ships at sea, which under the White Paper requires a fleet of 24 helicopters.

“The competitive process would commence in the next few months with the Government making a final decision about the new helicopter in 2011,” Senator Faulkner said.

“This schedule will enable the new helicopters to be delivered from 2014.

“Any decision Government makes in 2011 will take into account all relevant considerations including capability, cost, interoperability with other ADF capabilities, Australian industry opportunities, risk and value for money,” Senator Faulkner said.

The Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, Greg Combet, said that the decision to progress the project via a competitive tender was consistent with the Kinnaird and Mortimer procurement reforms.

The tender will allow the companies to offer innovative solutions that satisfy the capability, cost and schedule requirements and detail what opportunities they will offer local industry.

“A competitive process will ensure value for money for the tax payer and ensure the project's acquisition strategy provides the Government with the best possible information to support a decision for this vital capability,” Mr Combet said.

Rigga

26th Feb 2010, 19:42

It sounds like they bought it by mail order and didn't bother to check the spec's at all!

Although my real thoughts are that this is a result of the weight reclamation/rationalisation in the later design modules.

...or possibly a classic case of Human Factors as any troops who were sent to sit in it for publicity purposes had no chance to voice an opinion.

So...how many training/light freight helicopters do you need?

fleebag

27th Feb 2010, 05:07

@ ifsknt you totally reversed the quote there, not buying the MH-60R through FMS, without a competition. Also I'm hearing the MRH90 is performing really well, MRH90 Swoops In - Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/MRH90_Swoops_In)

ifsknt

27th Feb 2010, 06:11

Fleebag

It wasn't a quote.

I thought Australia was always going to go for the MRH 90 (for Army and 6 Navy to replace Sea Kings) followed by the NFH 90 for the Navy.

The German report on the operational assessment of the aircraft would seem to be at odds with the assessment your link provided.

gnz

27th Feb 2010, 09:05

What's the variant Germans are worried about (IOC, IOC+, upcoming FOC...)?
Germany is the only country wich received the "Step 1" chopper named IOC in
December 06 (http://www.nhindustries.com/publications/FO/scripts/myFO_accueil_iframe.php?lang=en&page=2#), with limited, (but anounced & accepted) capacities.
It was such a pitty that they ordered an extra 42 more TTH 6 months later (http://www.nhindustries.com/publications/FO/scripts/myFO_accueil_iframe.php?lang=en&page=2#)

What are the concerns for italian, nordics or Oman customers? Any complain?

I've heard the German navy is searching infos about Super Seasprite;)

industry insider

16th Jun 2011, 05:44

Looks like the MH-60R won the day....

Minister for Defence Stephen Smith and Minister for Defence Materiel Jason Clare today announced that the Australian Government had approved the acquisition of 24 MH-60R Seahawk ‘Romeo’ naval combat helicopters at a cost of over $3 billion.
The 2009 Defence White Paper committed the Government to equipping naval warships with a new combat helicopter capable of conducting a range of maritime misions with advanced anti-submarine warfare capabilities and the ability to fire air-to-surface missiles.
This announcement delivers on that commitment.
The new helicopters will replace the Navy’s current combat helicopter capability provided by 16 Seahawk S-70B-2 helicopters and will also provide the air to surface strike capability which was to have been provided by the cancelled Seasprite program.
This decision follows a 15-month competitive acquisition process involving the Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin built MH-60R and the NATO Helicopter Industries NH90 NFH assembled by Australian Aerospace.
This competitive process has ensured value for money for the tax payer.
The Australian Government has chosen the ‘Romeo’ helicopter because it represents the best value for money for taxpayers and was the lowest risk option.
The ‘Romeo’ is a proven capability currently operated by the United States Navy. The United States Navy has accepted around 100 ‘Romeos’ which have accumulated 90,000 flying hours, including on operational deployments.
Interoperability with Australia’s Alliance partner, the United States, is also a significant advantage of this helicopter.
The helicopters are largely military off-the-shelf built by Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin and will be purchased through the Foreign Military Sales process from the US Navy.
Defence has signed a Letter of Agreement for the acquisition with the United States Government.
The first two helicopters will arrive in mid-2014 for testing and evaluation with operations expected to commence in mid-2015.
Acquisition of 24 ‘Romeos’ means that Navy will have the capacity to provide at least eight warships with a combat helicopter at the same time, including ANZAC Class frigates and the new Air Warfare Destroyers. The remainder will be based at HMAS Albatross in Nowra, New South Wales, and will be in various stages of the regular maintenance and training cycle.
They will be equipped with a highly sophisticated combat systems designed to employ Hellfire air-to-surface missile and the Mark 54 anti-submarine torpedo.

Lonewolf_50

8th Jul 2011, 20:48

(From Flightglobal.com)

NH Industries will hand Italy its first naval NH90 helicopter.
"The Italian navy's first NFH90 is the ninth helicopter to be delivered to navies," said Domenico Vaccari.
"NH Industries will deliver three more NFH90 MOC each to France and the Netherlands, while a total of, respectively, five and six will be delivered to the Italian and Norwegian navies," said Vaccari. Naval NH90s have accumulated more than 900-flying hours, he added.

To put this into perspective ... The first NH90 prototype had its maiden flight in December 1995. Deliveries began in 2006.

Compare to the following maritime helicopter ...
In early 1978 the Navy selected Sikorsky's S-70B design, which was designated "SH-60B Seahawk". The first production version SH-60B achieved its first flight on 11 February 1983. The SH-60B entered operational service in 1984, with first operational deployment in 1985.

By 1987, thousands of hours had been flown by SH-60B helicopters, operationally, and thousands more in training and work ups.

Here in the US we often complain about how long it takes to get aircraft, heck, any weapons system, from concept to operation. The folks in the NH90 program have made me feel slightly better, but I feel awful for those folks who have been waiting for this bird to arrive.

Anyone flown the aircraft?

I'd hope it's a good flyer, given all the time and effort that's been put into it.

jant

9th Jul 2011, 14:22

On the first of june the newpaper 'Trouw' revealed that the Dutch Helikopter Command (DHC) are not happy with the performance of the NH90.

According to a internal report DHC finds the NH90 to heavy and limited deployable. Also DHC says the helicopter has a limited range in hot temperatures and can't carry specified number of persons.

Nieuwe heli defensie presteert ondermaats - MSN NIEUWS (http://nieuws.nl.msn.com/binnenlands-nieuws/nieuwe-heli-defensie-presteert-ondermaats) (dutch)

rotor-rooter

23rd Nov 2011, 13:33

Does anyone have a link to the full contents of these reports?

Dan Reno

23rd Nov 2011, 14:20

zalt

23rd Nov 2011, 22:46

Or the Sikorsky MHP?

zalt

26th Nov 2011, 14:19

Dan

With the greatest respect, this thread (titled NH90) has been running for 18 months and your first contribution was 3 days ago, so your view that This tread [your spelling] was discussing an operational aircraft not a developmental aircraft such as the MHP. is simply an opinion carries little weight.

You introduced the V-22 into a discussion on NH90. I introduced the MHP because NH90 was one option for MHP. It is worth considering that if you order a helicopter, get it in service and have gripes, they are generally less than if you order a helicopter (like the Crown did with the MHP) and are still waiting for it and having to keep an elderly earlier type still in service.

unless of course you're just 'baiting-up' A touch of paranoia there or perhaps you are the one hooking on worms?

Dan Reno

26th Nov 2011, 16:25

This tread was discussing an operational aircraft not a developmental aircraft such as the MHP. BIG difference unless of course you're just 'baiting-up' like you've done elsewhere here.

SansAnhedral

28th Nov 2011, 17:25

Publicity on ANY government aircraft will ALWAYS find the users (government employees) and manufacturers saying what a fantastic machine it is (if they value their jobs and/or ever want to get promoted) which is why PPRuNe is such a valuable tool in trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff (BS from the facts).

How does this make ANY sense whatsoever when the previous posts in this very thread cite publicity that the Dutch Helikopter Command (DHC) are not happy with the performance of the NH90 and Germany is not happy with NH90 helicopter.

So that certainly flies right in the face of "ANY government aircraft ALWAYS finding its users claiming it is a fantastic machine"...especially when both Germany and the Netherlands are a part of the NHIndustries consortium!

:suspect:

But nice try in taking yet another unwarranted stab at the V22 in a totally irrelevant thread.

Dan Reno

28th Nov 2011, 18:28

SANS,

You're right as I should have said US government funded aircraft. It appears foreign governments are more truthful.

Lonewolf_50

28th Nov 2011, 21:42

Dan Reno
SANS,
You're right as I should have said US government funded aircraft. It appears foreign governments are more truthful
Why not settle back under the bridge over the Osprey Freeway, Dan.

We can stick to the NH-90 with no fear that your pet peeve will not get its share of consideration and discussion ... in that thread. :cool:

For the record, I wonder how much hyperbole is included in the February Article covering German disappointments with NH-90. See the bold and italicized bit ... and call me skeptical.

Germany has ordered 122 NH90 for the army and the air force for around $6.2 billion but the testing of the pre-serial model revealed several deficiencies.
Clearance is so limited that soldiers have trouble getting in and out of the helicopter; the rear ramp is too weak to support fully equipped soldiers; the plane's floor is so sensitive that it can be cracked by boots; and the seats are unable to accommodate more than 240 pounds. The fact that modern infantry equipment weighs 55 pounds means that larger and more muscular soldiers will have to stay out.
Germany not happy with NH90 helicopter - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2010/02/25/Germany-not-happy-with-NH90-helicopter/UPI-28161267127259/#ixzz1f2i9r8E6)

Dan Reno

29th Nov 2011, 01:19

You're both right. Ha! Ha!

9Aplus

29th Nov 2011, 09:49

Helicopters on projects of concern list (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8381160)

The federal government has decided to place a troubled program to buy new army and navy helicopters onto its "projects of concern" list.
That follows signing of a deed agreement last week with prime contractor Australian Aerospace to develop a pathway to get the helicopters into service.

:rolleyes:

havick

29th Nov 2011, 10:01

That follows signing of a deed agreement last week with prime contractor Australian Aerospace to develop a pathway to get the helicopters into service.

Pity the deed of agreement doesn't include Mike model Blackhawks at the moment.

Jack Carson

29th Nov 2011, 12:29

The NH-90 has from inception has traveled a rough path. NH Industries was formed in 1992 with the design, development, manufacture and first flight of the first NH-90 following in just 3 years (18 December 1995). Since that first flight the program has been wrought with problems, both technical and programmatic. A case may be made that that NH Industries attempted to include many yet unproven attributes in one airframe. Some of those attributes are responsible for today’s issues. Now 19 years later, with limited production continuing, it appears as if many of the initial issues are still present creating havoc for those nations that elected to procure them. Some nations, Sweden for example, have elected to procure MH-60s as an interim solution while awaiting the solutions for NH-90 problems.

rotor-rooter

2nd Mar 2012, 02:28

I have rarely found that trying to make your customer look stupid is a winning sales strategy. But on the other hand, there is nothing safer than a helicopter that never flies! :rolleyes:

Navy: Europe firm ‘twisting’ facts for $1bn deal

February 21, 2012 By Sridhar Kumaraswami Correspondent New Delhi

A big controversy has hit the acquisition of 16 Multi-Role Helicopters for the Indian Navy, a deal estimated to be worth around $1 billion, with the Indian Navy accusing European vendor NH Industries (NHI) of trying to “mislead” the defence ministry, “twist” the Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQRs), “falsify” the Request for Proposal (RFP) and cause delays with “unreasonable que-ries/concerns”.

Documents accessed by this newspaper show the Navy criticised the European firm after it raised doubts about the helicopter of its American rival Sikorsky. This new US-European battle for an Indian defence deal is leading to a lot of acrimony.

NHI earlier alleged Sikorsky does not meet the NSQRs for the deal, and complained to the defence ministry. The Navy has now made it clear that both NHI and Sikorsky have met the NSQRs, making them both eligible. The Navy earlier submitted its Field Evaluation Trials (FETs) report to the MoD on acquiring the anti-surface and anti-submarine MRHs. NHI, based in France and with French, German and Italian participation, pitched its NH90 helicopter against Sikorsky’s S70B.

NHI earlier raised doubts about the Sikorsky helicopter on various aspects, including dual redundancy, fitment of fuel tanks, full authority automatic flight control system, fuel reserves at the end of mission, sensor functions and usage monitoring system. The Navy has, however, given the Sikorsky helicopter a clean chit.

In its final recommendations and in response to NHI’s allegations, the Navy said: “It emerges that NHI is attempting to mislead the higher authorities and cause delays... with unreasonable queries/concerns. The Indian Navy has evaluated the (NHI) NH90 and (Sikorsky) S70B helicopters, and considers both platforms meet the NSQRs specified in... the RFP.”

On NHI’s queries on the Sikorsky helicopter’s “sensor functions” and “fitment of both external and internal fuel tanks”, the Navy said: “It is clearly evident that NHI have twisted the NSQR, thereby falsifying the Request for Proposal on the MRH with an aim to misleading the higher authorities MoD”.

NHI had raised doubts on several other features. It said: “(The NSQR) requires no failure of single system should lead to a catastrophic failure. NHI would like to understand how this is demonstrated since the S70B does not have dual redundancy built in to all aircraft flight control systems.”

Self loading bear

5th Jul 2014, 09:54

This thread has been quiet for a while.
I hope i am adding this message to the right (most recent) thread on NH-90.

This week the Dutch have stopped acceptance/delivery of 7 remaining NH-90's.
Reason is the bad corrosion resistance of the NHF frigate models.
They state to be the first customer which have used the type heavily in a saline environment.
This being in the Caribbean and Horn of Afrika.

This makes me wonder:
- What has the Italian navy done with theirs since 2011?
- What have all other customers done with their now 200 delivered NH-90?
(although not all operated out above sea, this must have been given some rust?)
- What will happen if the heli's will operate on the North Atlantic?

Below a link to the Helihub site which also covered this item.
Apologies for the terrible translation. The automatic translation programme is clearly not
up to official govermental Dutch language.
Corrosion stops Netherlands NH90 deliveries | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/06/30/corrosion-stops-netherlands-nh90-deliveries/)

In this link also contains further downlinks to the official letter to parliament (dutch) and the corrosion investigation.
The official letter also states operational consequences such as:
Night SAR capablity to be rented in (longer)
Good news for NHV!

The problems were first reported half March.
At that time WTV from Vlaanderen Belgium made a report with interview with NHV:

TV report with NHV (http://helihub.com/2014/06/30/corrosion-stops-netherlands-nh90-deliveries/"link to helihub[/URL] In the official letter to parliament the minister of defence also gave the operational consequences of which one was that night SAR capability would have to be rented in (longer). Good news for NHV! First news about these corrosion problems appeared half March. Strange that NHV "specialist" then commented that NH-90 will have some spots but will not have severe corrosion when it will replace Belgian Seakings [URL="http://www.focus-wtv.be/video/nieuwe-nh90-roest-niet-volgens-specialisten)

The NH90 will have some spots but will not have heavy corrosion Also stating that
The NH90 is a fantastic and highly capable platform but with high operational costs of € 13.000 to € 25.000 per hour. ......
NHV SAR Dauphins as being operated for Dutch goverment altough half the size costs roughly € 7.500 per hour ......
NHV hopes Belgian SAR would be privatised like UK.
Everyone would benifit as costs could roughly be split in half. Not expressed specifically, i assume they imply that Belgian SAR could do with smaller aircraft than NH90.
It may be clear that the NH90 is not bought only to replace SAR.

Are there any Dutch or Belgian posters with more insight?

SLB

hueyracer

5th Jul 2014, 11:03

While the dutch have used both helicopters (one being "MOC", the other one "FOC") from ships, the italians have mainly used theirs from onshore bases..

And "highly used"?

Both dutch helicopters flew about 250 hours in maritime environment….

"Heavy corrosion" after 250 flight hours?
Come on!

It´s a piece of sh*#*-and an expensive one!

http://www.defensie.nl/binaries/defensie/documenten/rapporten/2014/06/27/nlr-rapport-over-corrosie-nh90/NLR_rapport_over_corrosie_NH-90.pdf

Shawn Coyle

5th Jul 2014, 16:40

My spies tell me that there was some problems with the Oz versions hovering over the water and getting erosion on the bottom of the blades (not at the leading edge, but part way back).
Anyone care to confirm / deny?

hueyracer

5th Jul 2014, 17:07

The corrosion usually does not really come from saltwater spray-most helicopters are sprayed with fresh water when they come back from flights in saline environments…..

The corrosions that they are talking about are from condensation (in parts of the helicopters that usually no one has access to) as well as from "normal" air……..

jimf671

5th Jul 2014, 17:21

http://www.defensie.nl/binaries/defensie/documenten/rapporten/2014/06/27/nlr-rapport-over-corrosie-nh90/NLR_rapport_over_corrosie_NH-90.pdf

A few flashbacks for me there! I remember long long ago receiving a stack of standards documents for a naval contract that included design and development. The specs for preferred materials were all for pretty standard aeroplane stuff with not a single marine material (not even 200 year old bronzes or New Forest oak :E). Nothing cheap for the brown jobs to drag through the mud either. When I complained, I was asked if I would like to serve on a committee overseeing the standards. Too much to do anyway, so I declined. Perhaps NH Industries are using the same books!

Self loading bear

5th Jul 2014, 19:17

Huey racer,
It doesn't make it any better but actually the report mentions various areas where salt spray was not expected but occured due to open door operations (cockpit and areas under floor boards)
It also mentions that water was not properly drained from areas that are exposed when the tail is folded.
And it mentions that there is a limited time frame to rinse down as the aircraft is to be tied down when in high sea state. It could be that my fellow country navy men are slow or have no sea legs but i prefer to agree with your opinion about this piece of s*#*.

on the otherhand:
All helicopter models are like kids.
It takes 15 years to get rid of the child diseases....
What i have read on the internet there was a time that the Seaking lost its blades faster than Arjen Robben his hair...
SLB

Brian Abraham

6th Jul 2014, 02:24

Audit report on Australia's buy

http://anao.gov.au/~/media/Files/Audit%20Reports/2013%202014/Audit%20Report%2052/AuditReport_2013-2014_52.pdf

turboshaft

27th Oct 2014, 14:41

German helicopter fleet 'not fit for Nato' (http://www.thelocal.de/20141024/mechanical-doubts-ground-helicopter-fleet)

Typically sensational reporting (all that's lacking is the near-miss on the orphanage), but it sounds like the Bundeswehr had an uncontained RTM322 engine failure due to a "bent driveshaft," possibly due to a thermal issue.

Lonewolf_50

27th Oct 2014, 16:57

I am not familiar with that engine.
I can empathize with the Germans on the engine's uncertain behavior as a training/readiness degrader.
Back in the early 90's, SH-60 family (B and F at the time) had some issues with the T-700 engine: uncommanded engine shutdowns.
There were a variety of electrical issues, signals crossing (related to the power sharing circuits) and wiring harnesses that sent spurious signals now and again. I remember (vagule) some diodes and seals were culprits for engines doing weird things.

It took a while for the engineers from
Marconi
Sikorsky
GE
all of whom had various subsystems involved in this lashup, to isolate all of the faults and find the fixes for them.

I will venture the following guess: the NH-90's engine issue will similarly get solved when the techs get their thinking caps on.

Peter-RB

29th Oct 2014, 16:01

When my son was in the Saddam war the helis tasked to collect their Regiment from near the Iran boarder, were going Tech several times with and due to Cracked heads, plus bad vibes. Is this still the same sort of problem?

Peter R-B
Lancashire

g.jongeneelen

29th Nov 2014, 20:36

I am not going to say that there are no problems with NH90 NFH, but apart from all negative input here the helicopter flies very nice and easy! :ok:
Its full fly-by-wire controls (qualified ADS-33) makes her easy to handle.

The RTM322 engines have had issues, but it is a relative new engine compared to the rather old T700.

The complex but extensive Naval Mission System has great capabilities and is qualified for 3 crew operations.

Yes, i am happy... :)

AAKEE

30th Nov 2014, 11:57

Lonewolf_50

1st Dec 2014, 22:07

Thanks for the "user feedback" g.jongeneelen:ok:
Maybe all the work and worry was worth it.

rjtjrt

25th Jan 2015, 01:39

Finnish NH90s creep towards 50% operational serviceability rate - 1/23/2015 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/finnish-nh90s-creep-towards-50-operational-serviceability-408259/)

"The availability of spares is one factor behind the low availability rates, for which there is a 200-day average turnaround."

6 months to get spare parts is appalling, and that is the AVERAGE time!

Lonewolf_50

26th Jan 2015, 12:28

Question:
Is there a correlation between this helicopter being "full FBW" and the readiness rate challenges? Or is that just a coincidence? :confused:

(The spares timeline noted above is vague enough to where I wonder at what is embodied in that statistic).

Smackhawk

21st Jan 2016, 04:54

Looks like Aussies and French are starting to team up.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australia-france-eye-collaboration-on-special-force-421028/

Australia and France are investigating a potential joint requirement for a special forces variant of the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 to trim development costs.

With only a small pool of helicopters requiring modification, France would look to share the financial commitment, says Maj Gen Olivier de la Motte, commander, French army aviation.

“We are speaking about a common version at the moment with Australia,” he said on the sidelines of the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference on 18 January. “We could have the same version for both forces.”

French army aviation operates eight Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracals for the mission. However later this decade the Caracals will transfer across to the air force, potentially leaving a capability gap.

Canberra, meanwhile, relies on a fleet of ageing Sikorsky S-70As to support its special operations units.

Both nations have substantial fleets of NH90s on order: Australia will eventually field a fleet of 47 of the troop transports, while the French army will have a 74-strong inventory, having added a six-unit order in January.

No decision has been made on whether to replace the departing H225Ms – either through new helicopters or modifications to the existing fleet – but the service is keen to ensure “we have the same number of airframes for each command”, says an army source.

Its special forces are in the early stages of drawing up the technical specification for any replacement, with the requirements likely to encompass a central trapdoor for fast roping, a rear door gun and changes to the communications suite.

“It is very early in the process,” says the source. “Our special forces would like the NH90, but want them to a certain specification. They make a request and then there will be an answer – yes to everything, yes to some things, or no to everything. Then [if appropriate] they will have to decide what they can do without."

rjtjrt

21st Jan 2016, 07:31

You'd want to be careful giving any money to the Europeans to develop this given the experience so far with the MH90/MRH90.
I wonder if it wouldn't end up cheaper and a lot faster to buy off the shelf MH-47G if US will sell them. US procurement of MOTS has been so much less painful, and we also get better interoperabilty and support with US.

Hilife

21st Jan 2016, 13:16

Given the success of the Romeo purchase, I'd place a bet on the AAA opting for M's.

Blackhawk9

25th Jan 2016, 07:52

Good money after bad again if they do that, but many in the Army know they are stuck with the MRH 90 and trying to make the best of it, my opinion , after the last MRH 90 is accepted and all the who wha has died down a quiet order for about a dozen MH-60M's will slip in and replace the S-70A-9's.

rjtjrt

25th Jan 2016, 08:40

On another forum, it was suggested an order for MH-60S would be sensible as a special forces helicopter to replace Blackhaks.
Makes a lot of sense to me - commonality with the Romeo in RAN, USN use them for CSAR and presumably special forces, marinised for use on RAN.
Equally useful on land.

TBM-Legend

24th Apr 2017, 16:50

RNZAF NH90's grounded. One had a big engine failure and put in a paddock returning from Omaka...

Oz Navy MRH90 Taipan's availability ~ 55% while MH-60R Romeo approaches 90%. That says it all. Army struggles with theirs..

Buying off the shelf proven kit is the way to go...

noooby

24th Apr 2017, 22:14

I wouldn't blame the machine for the Aussie MRH-90 availability, I'd blame Australia.

Look at the Seasprite. An absolute disaster in Australia (did it EVER go into service?) and a star in NZ with good availability and a good reputation.

Not sure about the big engine failure, it was an engine failure. Cause unknown as yet. Happens in airliners too. It is standard practice in many military forces to ground the machines if there is a failure that cannot be determined quickly.

And the availability of the RNZAF NH-90's seems to be fine too. Except when they are hit by lightning or hit vegetation in confined areas :}:}:}

Cyclic Hotline

25th Apr 2017, 03:49

OK, I'll bite. Let's put some numbers into it so that it's a real comparison. Seeing as the Seasprite came up, let's throw it into the mix as well.

Number of aircraft in fleet?
Number of Operational aircraft in fleet?
Annual utilization?
Availability?
Hourly operating cost or annual budget per fleet?

industry insider

25th Apr 2017, 08:34

Number of aircraft in fleet?
Number of Operational aircraft in fleet?
Annual utilization?
Availability?
Hourly operating cost or annual budget per fleet?

Zero is the answer to all the above as the SeaSprite never entered service in Australia.

Ian Corrigible

25th Apr 2017, 11:16

It would be interesting to know where the availability stats were sourced from. FWIW, Av Week last month quoted the overall MRH90 (i.e. Navy and Army) availability rate as being “just under 70%,” (http://aviationweek.com/avalon-airshow/airbus-optimistic-australia-s-tigers-bell-boeing-circle) though this was an Airbus number, not an ADF metric.

Re: buying off-the-shelf proven kit being the way to go, the Australian National Audit Office belatedly agrees with TBM. From the latest 2015-16 Major Projects Report (https://www.anao.gov.au/work/major-projects-report/major-projects-report-2015-16) (issued in February), here’s the commentary on the MRH90’s OTS status:

The MRH Program was incorrectly viewed as a Military off-the-Shelf (MOTS) acquisition. Lessons associated with intended MOTS procurements include: that it is essential that the maturity of any offered product be clearly assessed and understood; and that elements of a chosen off-the-shelf solution may not meet the user requirement.

And the same report’s lesson’s learned conclusion on the MH-60R’s MOTS status:

By procuring MOTS equipment, adhering to the project’s clearly defined scope as detailed by government at Second Pass, and effectively using the Program Management Steering Group to prevent potential scope creep, the project has been able to meet or exceed its financial and schedule obligations as detailed within the project’s Materiel Acquisition Agreement.

I/C

dClbydalpha

25th Apr 2017, 11:58

There is a logical fallacy concerning everyone only buying proven Off The Shelf.

Cyclic Hotline

16th May 2017, 21:17

This article contains some utterly appalling statistics and makes you wonder what part of the programme is at fault? Surely someone is responsible for this atrocious availability record and cost - and I don't mean the French taxpayer! Too many modern products consistently fail completely to meet their design specifications, availability and budgetary goals and yet no-one ever seems to be held accountable?

Some might even consider that these platforms are jeopardizing the National Security of the Nations involved, and that is the primary motivation in procuring them in the first place. So who's to blame? The procurement organizations, the military operators, the politicians or the manufacturers? More importantly, where's the solution and when will there be some commitment to action and enforcement of the deliverables. All anyone seems to want to do anymore is write down the order, take the money and see you later!

It's totally pathetic and ranks on the incompetent.

French military helicopter readiness? Depends on the fleet (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/french-military-helicopter-readiness-depends-on-the-fleet)

French military helicopter readiness? Depends on the fleet

By: Pierre Tran, May 16, 2017
PARIS — The latest official update on readiness of French military helicopters show an average availability less than 50 percent, with the Tiger attack helicopter only ready for operations a quarter of the time.

The French Army fleet of 59 Tiger attack helicopters was last year ready for operations an average 25.6 percent at a total annual maintenance cost of €88.61 million (U.S. $98.2 million), the Defence Ministry said in response to a written question from Member of Parliament François Cornut-Gentille.

The Tiger’s 2016 availability compares with 21.4 percent in the previous year and is based on an average age of 5.5 years.

A low availability of French military helicopters and high cost of maintenance have sparked concern, leading Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to pledge last November an availability boost to an average 50 percent across the fleets, with special attention paid to the Tiger.

“Topics such as a second aircraft carrier and cybersecurity grab the public limelight, but maintenance lacks that nice image,” Cornut-Gentille said.

The French Navy’s 15-strong fleet of NH90 Caïman helicopters had an availability of 38.4 percent, up from 32 percent, at an annual maintenance cost of €47 million, with an average age of 3.4 years.

The 17 NH90s flown by the Army were available 41.4 percent, down from 47.6 percent, with an annual cost of €61.53 million and average age of three years.

The Cougar, with an average age of 26.3 years, was available 9.9 percent, down from 12.2 percent, with a bill of €40.27 million.

“Our essential capabilities are much constrained by the very low rate of availability of our helicopters, on average 38 percent,” MP François Lamy said of Army helicopters in a Nov. 2 lower house debate on the 2017 defense budget, reported business magazine Challenges.

“The Navy has 17 helicopters, 10 of which are in maintenance,” said parliamentarian Gwendal Rouillard, who was referring to the NH90 and pointed out that the 17th was at the time grounded due to a mechanical problem.

That lack of availability was largely due to an unduly complex system of maintenance shared out between government offices including the Direction Générale de l’Armement procurement office; two service wings of the Defence Ministry, namely Integrated Structure for Aeronautic Maintenance, and the Industrial Aeronautics Service; and private sector operators, Lamy said.

Airbus Helicopters supplied the Tiger, and NHIndustries — a joint venture held by Airbus, Leonardo and Fokker — delivered the NH90.

“Basically, this system does not work,” Lamy said. To underline the impracticality, he pointed to the Tiger’s routine service lasting 183 days, when the actual average period was 383 days.

Le Drian said he had launched an emergency plan to boost availability to average 50 percent in 2019, and to increase the readiness of the Tiger, which has seen a faster rate of wear and tear due to a damaging fine sand encountered in sub-Saharan Africa on the Barkhane mission.

“Supporting the French armed forces is a top priority for Airbus Helicopters, and we are working closely with our customers to meet their operational needs,” an Airbus Helicopters spokesperson said.

Cyclic Hotline

16th May 2017, 21:31

There is a logical fallacy concerning everyone only buying proven Off The Shelf.

I'm not sure that I understand that statement. Could you amplify it a little?

henra

16th May 2017, 22:33

I'm not sure that I understand that statement. Could you amplify it a little?
Obviously there needs to be someone who buys the unproven product initially...

dClbydalpha

17th May 2017, 08:31

I'm not sure that I understand that statement. Could you amplify it a little?

As Henra says someone has to be first. If not then there is no advancing of capability.

When someone does take the first step it will be designed, developed, tested and proven for their requirements and procedures. If someone else then takes that product then they must stick to exactly the same regime of operation, regulations and maintenance else it isn't really OTS. I have seen small "tweaks" to an existing design have far reaching and unforeseen consequences - only to have everyone shout "but it was off the shelf!"

widgeon

17th May 2017, 10:27

9.9% for the cougar and trending down, what is the size of the fleet . Funny that the NH90 is the best of the bunch . I wonder what the Lynx figures were.

Cyclic Hotline

17th May 2017, 16:14

As Henra says someone has to be first. If not then there is no advancing of capability.

When someone does take the first step it will be designed, developed, tested and proven for their requirements and procedures. If someone else then takes that product then they must stick to exactly the same regime of operation, regulations and maintenance else it isn't really OTS. I have seen small "tweaks" to an existing design have far reaching and unforeseen consequences - only to have everyone shout "but it was off the shelf!"

Yes, I agree completely with you on this. However, the system seems broken and no-one is ever held to account, I make that statement based upon procurement involving every OEM, not specifically the subject here. If a fresh start procurement involves technology, design or manufacturing techniques that are unproven, then why should the tax-payer assume the risk (and expense) of it not functioning in accordance with the contractual specifications? It seems to me that there is a need to interject some commercial reality and sanity checks into the procurement process everywhere.

Many of the technological advancements are defined by the contracting entity, but originate from the supplier convincing them that it will be a great idea. The evolution cycle and lifespan of a basic platform design certainly needs to incorporate as many achievable technological advances as possible, based upon realistic budgeting and deliverables. Procurement agencies need to ensure that an effective team involving all parties are essentially going to be involved through the entire cycle and also that they are going to be held accountable for the outcome.

Instead, we continually see programmes that never deliver on time and budget and often are incapable of meeting the original contract requirements and then fail to meet any realistic (or acceptable) operational availability goals. It is a backward move to procure a supposedly more capable platform replacing an existing one, only to discover that it can't meet operational availabilty, performance or capability goals.

Something is very wrong with this model and it is seriously diminishing the effectiveness of militaries all over the World to field aviation assets to meet their requirements and commitments.

Just my thoughts.

cattletruck

18th May 2017, 10:23

we continually see programmes that never deliver on time and budget

The F-35 is setting never-thought-possible new benchmarks in this area. It makes this program look like a winner.

The people I spoke to at Avalon this year seemed to be much "happier" with their NH-90's, particularly with the current old gear becoming a handful to maintain.

Flying Bull

18th May 2017, 18:49

DHC4

20th May 2017, 07:40

There are a couple of points to look after- not only who is the manufacture!

How many trained staff is there for the work?
Are spares ordered in advance?
What planning is done between the flightline and the maitainance?
Lots of levers to play with - or to spoil readyness....

Who are you referring to in these questions, would also like to see some serviceability % for all the NH90 operators.

Flying Bull

20th May 2017, 10:47

Hi DHC4,

just generally speaking...
Throwing numbers into a room without further information about why - or as you rightly ask, numbers at other operators, it´s just bending the statistics in favour of the one, who shows them.....

Cyclic Hotline

25th Jan 2018, 18:48

I see a couple of issues bringing this programme back into the News again. In another post here on PPRuNe it was mentioned that the Belgian NH-90's will be grounded for a year for modifications, with the Sea_King resuming the SAR role. https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/597574-sea-kings-continue-flying-operations.html#post10025804

Belgian NH90 NFH helos out of commission for radar repairs | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/77075/belgian-nh90-nfh-helos-out-of-commission-for-radar-repairs)

https://sputniknews.com/military/201801251061065379-norway-helicopter-delay/

https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/3j6e9L/Forsvaret-sier-at-kontrakten-er-brutt-Men-her-lander-likevel-mareritthelikopteret-NH90

Cyclic Hotline

8th Mar 2018, 10:53

Sweden is not pleased.

Sweden pointed out that its 18 NH90s cost over $24,000 an hour to operate while its American made UH-60s cost only $4,500 an hour. Moreover the Swedish NH90s had a low readiness rate, about half that of the UH-60. Sweden had similar experience to other NH90 users and, unlike the naval versions of the UH-60, the naval version of NH90 had even more problems. In desperation Sweden ordered 16 UH-60s to fill in until the NH90 is fixed. Getting the NH90 to be comparable in performance to the older UH-60 appears to be perpetual problem.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairmo/articles/20180308.aspx

500 Fan

8th Mar 2018, 15:07

Can anyone offer a guesstimate on why $24,000 is needed for each flight hour? Fuel might account for $1,000-1,500 of the total. What is consuming the rest of the money?

Are manufacturers like NH Industries, Sikorsky (Canadian S-92) etc promising to deliver aircraft with outstanding performance and then failing to deliver a helicopter that will never, ever deliver on that promise?

500 Fan.

noooby

8th Mar 2018, 16:50

I don't think they're accurate with their costing at all. Are they taking the whole package (spares/training/machines) and dividing that up by how many hours they've flown?

Might even be counting wages for everybody associated with it! For whatever reason, it doesn't look like they're comparing the two machines properly.

nowherespecial

8th Mar 2018, 17:41

Have a good rummage through GKN's website as one of the major contractors for NH90 and tell me they seem adequately manned and fully up to speed on this. The fact they don't have anyone doing this job and are advertising it on their job portal shows they don't really have a clue.
https://careers.gkn.com/vacancies/vacancy-details.aspx?vacancyid=15591

SuperF

8th Mar 2018, 19:02

I have heard the figure of $25,000 / hr from other countries as well. Just silly little things, like a 100 hr check taking weeks and weeks, stretching into months to accomplish. That is with numerous maintenance staff on the job, so if you take all those wages at $$$$/week divide out by 100 then you need to add that to the cost!

At that rate, you wouldn't actually want to go to war with them!!!

breakdip

8th Mar 2018, 20:19

At that rate, you wouldn't actually want to go to war with them!!!

Well, quite frankly, it is THE machine I would want to go to war with. Far better mission integration systems than all other machines out there (specifically the US made ones). Great delight for pilots in adverse conditions regarding the sophisticated autopilot systems. I am not complaining with 200+ hours a year for the past 4 years.

Cyclic Hotline

21st Aug 2018, 16:47

https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows-off-ailing-nato-helicopter/a-45149339GERMANYGerman army shows off ailing NATO helicopterGerman Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen is touring the ranks of the Bundeswehr this summer. But some of the military hardware she is admiring, like the NH90 helicopter, has seen more ground time than flight time.

https://www.dw.com/image/45148465_303.jpg (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows-off-ailing-nato-helicopter/a-45149339#)
Bundeswehr NH90 pilot Sven Messer with his chopper

When it comes to German military equipment, the German defense minister is getting a little more defensive.

Ursula von der Leyen, head of the German armed forces, is in the middle of her regular "summer tour" of Germany's military bases to take stock of military hardware and the state of the troops — and perhaps try to revive morale among soldiers hit by negative news reports about technical underpreparedness (https://www.dw.com/en/limited-number-of-weapons-in-german-military-ready-for-action-report/a-42752070) and shortages of personnel (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-mulls-recruiting-foreign-eu-nationals-to-boost-recruitment/a-44775125) and hardware.

The fifth of these 10 tour stops took von der Leyen to a base in Niederstetten, Baden-Württemberg on Monday, where she watched a display of some NH90 military transport helicopters that have been beset by problems in the past, causing many machines to be grounded and critics to question the effectiveness of Germany's military spending.

NH90: A 'highly respected' helicopter

Before answering three questions from reporters and then speaking to around 150 soldiers in private, von der Leyen was treated to a complex demonstration of the many purposes of the NH90 transport helicopter. In this case, the display involved six helicopters, four paratroopers, around 60 infantry soldiers, two military vehicles, and a Belgian shepherd dog (which was not to be petted, the minister was told).

https://www.dw.com/image/45148481_401.jpg (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows-off-ailing-nato-helicopter/a-45149339#)
The troops in Niederstetten demonstrated the capacity of the NH90 for von der Leyen

"We can say that the NH90 has proved its worth," von der Leyen said in a brief statement after the show. "It's good to hear from the soldiers that it's a helicopter that is highly respected, and has shown in operations what extraordinary capabilities it has."

Major Andre Benker, Bundeswehr PR officer for the press tour, expanded on the different ways that the helicopters could be used. "They're so important because they can transport personnel, drop off paratroopers, be used for search and rescue, and be used to provide protection to companies they accompany," he said.

https://www.dw.com/image/45148517_401.jpg (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows-off-ailing-nato-helicopter/a-45149339#)
Von der Leyen is touring bases across Germany in the annual summer tour. She stopped at a helicopter transport base in Niederstetten.

In the sky or on the ground?

Monday's praise for the transport chopper stands out, given that the machines and their widely publicized problems have been used to illustrate Germany's military shortfalls.

The NH90, which the Bundeswehr used for rescue operations as part of the United Nations mission in Mali, was briefly grounded in October last year when stress marks were found in the engine of one of the helicopters returning from Africa.

Around the same time, one helicopter was also forced into an emergency landing in the West African nation due to engine failure. All German NH90s were pulled out of Mali this July, along with their Belgian counterparts, when their 16-month deployment ended.

Read more: German army helicopter crashes in Mali on UN mission, two dead (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-helicopter-crashes-in-mali-on-un-mission-two-dead/a-39847702)

https://www.dw.com/image/44497231_401.jpg (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows-off-ailing-nato-helicopter/a-45149339#)
German NH90s were used in a UN mission in Mali

According to regiment spokesman Lars Meinzer, currently around half of the 16 NH90s in Niederstetten are operational at any one time, though that figure changes from day to day. Thanks to a boost in the defense budget, the Niederstetten base is due to get another 18 NH90s by 2021 — though Meinzer said that production delays and increased costs mean it is unlikely that deadline will be met.

Last year, a Bundeswehr Armed Forces Commissioner report showed that out of the 40 NH90s the German military had in stock, only five were operational in 2016. In May the government also admitted that 19 out of 129 Bundeswehr helicopter pilots had lost their flying licenses (https://www.dw.com/en/1-in-10-german-military-pilots-lost-helicopter-licenses-for-lack-of-flight-time/a-43646369) in 2017 because they had not recorded enough flying hours.

Pilot Sven Messer, pictured above, who flew the NH90 in both Afghanistan and Mali, told DW, "Well, put it this way: when I was there it did everything it was supposed to do."

The rusty helicopter

Built by NHIndustries, a European manufacturing company specifically founded to provide NATO machines, the NH90 has often been considered a problematic case, with several succumbing to technical problems in the machine's 23-year history. First conceived in the early 1990s, the chopper was designed to be constantly adapted for new land and sea missions, but this perennial re-enhancement has led to many complex logistical challenges.

In 2010, a report by a German army expert panel was leaked to the German daily Bild. It listed several problems with the NH90's interior and concluded that it was not well-suited for transporting soldiers, especially if they were carrying heavy equipment. It added the worrying detail that there was not enough room to use the machine gun that was meant to be mounted inside.

https://www.dw.com/image/45148497_401.jpg (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows-off-ailing-nato-helicopter/a-45149339#)
Von der Leyen wants to increase German military spending and has defended upping the Bundeswehr's budget against critics

In response, the German Defense Ministry said that the report referred to a prototype, not to the finished model, and said such army-internal developmental criticisms were routine. Nevertheless, both the Australian and Dutch militaries, which use the NH90, have reported engine corrosion.

On Monday, von der Leyen acknowledged that the NH90 had had some "teething troubles," but that she had been told by Niederstetten's regiment commander, Peter Göhringer, that the "situation had improved," especially when it came to the constantly nagging problem of acquiring spare parts.

Mismanagement or routine problems?

Several opposition politicians have read the NH90's troubles as a sign of von der Leyen's mismanagement. Green Party defense spokesman Tobias Lindner said last year that the incidents in Mali "showed that the NH90 remains unreliable for use."

More recently, Left party parliamentary representative Matthias Höhn condemned the endless readaptation of Germany's military equipment.

"It's longer than we expected," von der Leyen countered on Monday, "but then we also started much later than planned." She argued that, "When a new system is started, we have to slowly improve the infrastructure that goes with it that means that the technology, the training, the simulators. This successive development and improvement has a purpose."

Read more: Germany struggles to step up cyberdefense (https://www.dw.com/en/germany-struggles-to-step-up-cyberdefense/a-44979677)

Watch video42:38New challenges for the German armyThese delays, Höhn told the socialist newspaper Neues Deutschland this week, have only enriched defense contractors at the expense of taxpayers. Höhn argued that throwing more money at the military did more for arms companies than it did for national security.

But von der Leyen is unlikely to be interested in a socialist's calls for defense cutbacks. The German government has come under pressure from US President Donald Trump (https://www.dw.com/en/donald-trump-rails-against-german-defense-spending-shortfall/a-43831842) over its defense spending, and like many European NATO members, is currently boosting its budget in response to a perceived increased threat from Russia in Eastern Europe.

Germany is to spend €42.9 billion ($47.5 billion) on defense (https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-to-get-4-billion-spending-boost/a-44498599) in 2019, up from €38.5 billion this year, and €32.4 billion in 2014, a figure that will only go up in years to come.

Cyclic Hotline

29th Jan 2019, 02:51

What an absolute farce. What is it about new Helicopter procurements that continually produces these wholly predictable outcomes?
https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/01/28/grilling-begins-over-helicopter-scandal/Grilling begins over helicopter scandalJanuary 28, 2019
https://cache.addthis.com/cachefly/static/btn/v2/lg-share-en.gif (https://addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=)No fewer than seven Norwegian defense ministers plus top military brass were facing lots of questions this week, over yet another scandal involving faulty and highly expensive equipment procurement. It’s not just Norway’s frigates that have been troublesome: Helicopters ordered back in 2001 and costing NOK 11 billion won’t be in full service until 2025.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/20171116MVV_029.t5a6068d8.m600.xPUjqjJVx-e1548675334809.jpgHere’s one of the troublesome NH90 helicopters in Bodø in 2017. Only nine have been delivered since they were ordered in 2001, and they’re mostly out of service. PHOTO: Forsvaret/Marius Vågenes Villanger

Three days of open hearings at the Parliament began Monday into the helicopters that have been plaguing Norway’s governments since 2000. That’s when Defense Minister Bjørn Tore Godal of the Labour Party was supposed to have finished negotiations for and quality-checked the purchase of 14 NH90 “multi-purpose” helicopters.

Newspaper Aftenposten reported Monday that 19 years later, only nine of the helicopters have materialized and they’re mostly grounded because of “enormous maintenance needs and a severe shortage of reserve parts.”

Godal’s staff, according to a highly critical report on the helicopter scandal by the state auditor general’s office (Riksrevisjonen), was supposed to have selected helicopters with known technology. Instead they chose what in practice was a helicopter being developed at an “experimental stage” and when not a single one had yet been produced.

High expectations
The NH90 was developed by four European countries and produced in Italy, designed to carry as many as 16 passengers for up to four hours at a max speed of 300 kilometers per hour. The plan was to place eight NH90s on Norwegian coast guard vessels, to replace their old Lynx helicopters. They would be used for search and rescue operations and fisheries monitoring.

The Coast Guard, however, has in practice had to sail without helicopters since 2014. The Navy’s troubled frigates were supposed to get six of the NH90s, making it possible for them to track submarines. Norway’s frigates (now missing one because of the collision and sinking of the (https://www.newsinenglish.no/2018/12/21/frigates-captain-finally-speaks-out/)Helge Ingstad) are still sailing without operative NH90 helicopters.

It remains unclear why the Norwegian military, back in 2000-2001, chose to purchase the helicopters from the jointly owned producer NHI, which had no production experience at the time. After Godal’s colleagues apparently laid the groundwork, his Labour Party government (led at the time by the now-NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg) lost the election to a conservative coalition led by the Christian Democrats. Kristin Krohn Devold of the Conservative Party took over after Godal in October 2001 and the contract with NHI was signed a month later.

Contract kept being upheld
Devold was in charge until 2005, a period described by the state auditor general as full of problems with the contract that were met with “a long series of problematic, strange solutions.” The first helicopters were due for delivery in 2005, but NHI wasn’t even close to being finished with them. The contract, however, was maintained.

Stoltenberg won back government power in 2005 and hung on to it for the next eight years, but problems with the helicopters continued. Anne-Grete Strøm-Erichsen took over as defense minister for the Labour Party and was supposed to take delivery of all 14 helicopters. By the time she was temporarily relieved of her duties in 2009, none were in her possession. It was clear that NHI was not delivering on its contract, yet it was extended once again.

Grete Faremo, also of the Labour Party, took over from Strøm-Erichsen until 2011 and the first NH90 finally came to Norway, but the state auditor writes how the ministry and military lacked management and coordination of the phase-in. A new agreement was written for training versions of the helicopter and final versions, but there was a lack of clear decision-making.

Contract unbreakable
Espen Barth Eide of the Labour Party succeeded Faremo in November 2011 and then Norway finally sent a delegation to NHI. Eide was reportedly close to breaking the contract and replacing the NH90s with American Seahawks, only to find out that it reportedly would cost almost as much to break the contract as to retain it. Aftenposten’s request for insight into the contract was denied.

Strøm-Erichsen returned as defense minister in 2012 after being replaced by Jonas Gahr Støre as health minister, but only for a year, since Labour lost the election in 2013. She took delivery of a third helicopter, but still only a training version.

Ine Eriksen Søreide of the Conservative Party took over as defense minister in 2013, and received four more helicopters, including the first in a so-called “full” version. Problems continued to mount, however, on the technical front and even on the personnel side, since frustrated pilots quit or reported for duty elsewhere. The last of the Lyux helicopters were retired in 2014, meaning that fully operational helicopters have been lacking ever since.

This week’s hearings aim to chart what happened, when and why, who failed to step in and demand improvements and whether the contract could have or should have been broken. Of four Nordic countries that agreed to buy the NH90, only Denmark opted out, ordering American Seahawks instead in 2012. They were available to put into full service in 2017-2018.

Aftenposten reported that the scandal exploded after Frank Bakke-Jensen took over for Søreide in October 2017, when she became foreign minister. That’s when it became clear that the helicopters are only capable of flying 90 hours a year, and all that must be reserved for the frigates. Norway’s coast guard, meanwhile, remains without operative helicopters.

newsinenglish.no/[email protected]

TowerDog

31st Jan 2019, 01:42

The Norwegian helicopters are estimated to cost $30,000 per hour to operate as per Aftenposten, a leading Norwegian newspaper:

. Skyhøy pris for norsk skandalehelikopter: Vil koste 260.000 pr. flytime

WTF, is any other country or operator even close to 1/4 of that ridiculous hourly cost?

Blackhawk9

31st Jan 2019, 06:39

The Norwegians have been able to compare operating costs directly with Danish MH-60R (Naval) and Swedish UH-60M (Land) with the UH-60 slightly cheaper obviously which are about a 1/4 of the Norwegian NH-90 cost , the Swedish NH-90 (Land version) is quoted as "significantly" more than the UH-60M but can't find a figure.
Have not heard anything good about NH-90 with Unserviceability's , maintenance and spares costing all blowing out.
Australia has 47 MRH-90 land versions, with a few aircraft parked up in hangars as tail pylons , MGB's etc all having to be sent back to Europe for repair/overhaul. Lucky to make 50% serv rate. And that's almost 10 years after the first one was introduced. 30 year old Black Hawks have a better serviceability rate at the end of their service life than the "new" MRH-90.

Collective Bias

31st Jan 2019, 06:40

In Sweden the cost is reported ”well over” €20 000 per hour....

CB

Jack Carson

31st Jan 2019, 14:46

The Nordic Standard helicopter Program (NSHP) was decided in the spring of 2002 with Norway, Sweden and Finland selecting variants of the NH-90 over variants of the S-92. Denmark was never truly part of the program going it alone for the EH-101. At the time, Sikorsky’s H-60 was never considered by any country due to its perceived maturity. (the design was not state of the art enough). Hindsight is always 20/20 and we will never know if Sikorsky could have delivered aircraft that met the specific requirements of the 4 countries. Issues with the Canadian S-92 program may have provided some insight in to how difficult a task it would have been.

AAKEE

31st Jan 2019, 17:47

The Norwegian helicopters are estimated to cost $30,000 per hour to operate as per Aftenposten, a leading Norwegian newspaper:

WTF, is any other country or operator even close to 1/4 of that ridiculous hourly cost?

In Sweden there was a lot of media last year abiut the swedish NH90 costs, Sweden calulation says 254.000sek( 28.000usd).

The finnish collegues where quoting about the same numbers recently for their NH90

I did read some reports a few years back about Australian NH90, then the direct conversion from AUD made almost exactly the same number.

I’d think thats what the other countries costs to...

Buster15

31st Jan 2019, 18:29

TowerDog

31st Jan 2019, 20:56

Is there any details of the breakdown (no pun intended) of these rediculously high cost per flying hour.

Not sure, but one of the reasons for the high cost was operations from ships rather than dry land according to the news paper article.
Either way it comes out of the tax payers pockets. (I used to be one of those Norwegian Tax Payers before I discovered sunshine and palmtrees and moved to Florida, highly recommend, cheaper hourly rates in the colonies:sad:)

212man

31st Jan 2019, 22:08

Is there any details of the breakdown (no pun intended) of these rediculously high cost per flying hour.
you can probably work out any hourly cost you want. Low annual hours across a small number of airframes supported by a full military background support of an airfield with ATC, admin block and staff, security, maintenance (civil work), high number of technicians per airframe, married quarters, officers’ mess, NCO’s mess, junior ranks’ mess etc, Padre, medical center , maybe a primary school..., through in actual gross employee costs in a 50+% tax environment. Through life costs, development costs for a bespoke airframe. It soon rises above oil and fuel and pilot salary!

Blackhawk9

1st Feb 2019, 04:33

I believe the approx. Hrly costs for NH-90 variants to S-70 variants using Denmark , Norway and Sweden costing are approx. :
Denmark MH-60R ship based $9,000 USD Hr
Norway NH90 ship based $30, 000 USD Hr
Sweden UH-60M Land based Army support $8,000 USD Hr
Sweden NH-90 Land based Army support and ASW version $25-28,000 USD Hr

How is that sustainable ??

dingo9

1st Feb 2019, 11:13

breakdip

1st Feb 2019, 17:19

The whole NH 90 programme is an absolute scandal. It should by now be a mature, tested and reliable platform.
I’ll make it simple for governments and procurement people. You need 3 helicopters in your arsenal.
CH47
UH60
AH64
done. ( maybe EC135/145 for trg and LUH)
questions?

I do think it is a bit unfair to compare the NH90 with fully mature airframes (+30 years of service). For land based operations you might have a point, however for naval operations both the French and Dutch have made a lot of progress and consider the NH90 unmatched by their American rivals. One reason is that they take their programs serious, what cannot be said about their Scandinavian colleagues (especially Norway). The Merlin and NH90 are currently the top performers considering ASuW/ASW.
So forget the TTH indeed, but cherish the NFH for her top notch performance and over water capabilities (e.g., sophisticated AFCS, integrated mission systems, SAR++ capable).

Collective Bias

1st Feb 2019, 18:51

From first hand observation!

When thet get one NH90 flying, they do hot swap of crews, to be able to fly it, since it seems to be startup that it is the biggest problem.....

CB

dingo9

1st Feb 2019, 19:00

Breakdip, agree that an advanced AFCS and modern avionics are usuefull, especially in the maritime environment / posh hovering over water. However nothing that couldn’t be added to an existing proven airframe. To develop an entirely new helicopter at such huge costs to hover over the water and dip a can in is a tad over the top.
The perfect world would have as few types as possible to get comanality of parts, gain from economy of scale and have a simple training pipeline. As long as it hovers all the fancy avionics can come in subsequent upgrades as development and technology advances.
Im being naive ofcourse as these projects are self licking lollipops for governments protecting industry and jobs- Yeovil would’ve gone down the pan long ago if this wasn’t the case- it’s just a shame they turn out such poorly made helicopters.

tottigol

2nd Feb 2019, 01:29

The Nh-90 has two engine types available, the GE T700 and the RR/TM RTM something something, what engine is being used by the Northern Lights Kingdoms?

Blackhawk9

2nd Feb 2019, 07:16

Norway , Sweden and Finland run the RTM322 in their NH-90's and Denmark run it in there EH101's. Swedish UH-60M and Danish MH-60R use the GE T700-701D

breakdip

2nd Feb 2019, 15:15

Dingo9, where the NFH stands out is the fact that all mission systems are integrated, which is a major advantage in a warfare scenario. E.g. Sweden have a highly modified TTH and added their mission systems afterwards. This has proven to be non effective unfortunately. The Germans are just unlucky with their IOC TTHs, but I have high hopes for their NFH program.
Maybe I am a bit biased with over 1000 hours in the machine, but trust me, it is a real delight to fly and very effective in a naval environment. The MH60 might be a true workhorse, but when viewed objectively, not comparable with a NH90. Plus, I have not seen the Danish operate their machine in a significant mission/exercise yet.
I am aware of some of the flaws of the machine, but it is too easy to focus on the defects. The maturity will come, as I experience some very professional engineers and crews working on that every day. Try to focus on her achievements and collaborate on the improvements. Yet again, I might be a little bit biased, sorry.

Ps. With regard to the operating costs per FH, it includes much more variables than just the flying part. For what I’ve read I cannot tell whether its comparing apples (NH90) to oranges (MH60), but I do know that my salary is just a small % of that. ;)

512

2nd Feb 2019, 15:48

I’ll make it simple for governments and procurement people. You need 3 helicopters in your arsenal.
CH47
UH60
AH64
done. ( maybe EC135/145 for trg and LUH)
questions?

Breakdip, agree that an advanced AFCS and modern avionics are usuefull, especially in the maritime environment / posh hovering over water. However nothing that couldn’t be added to an existing proven airframe. To develop an entirely new helicopter at such huge costs to hover over the water and dip a can in is a tad over the top.
The perfect world would have as few types as possible to get comanality of parts, gain from economy of scale and have a simple training pipeline. As long as it hovers all the fancy avionics can come in subsequent upgrades as development and technology advances.
Im being naive ofcourse as these projects are self licking lollipops for governments protecting industry and jobs- Yeovil would’ve gone down the pan long ago if this wasn’t the case- it’s just a shame they turn out such poorly made helicopters.

I'll bite at this. The biggest bugbear to Yeovil products is the tortuous and arcane MoD procurement process which adds costs, complexity and completely spurious requirements. It then, has a culture of revisiting all decisions every two years and quite often changing the design. Then, the UK operator takes delight in looking across the pond and believing they can do no wrong.

dingo9

2nd Feb 2019, 18:47

I'll bite at this. The biggest bugbear to Yeovil products is the tortuous and arcane MoD procurement process which adds costs, complexity and completely spurious requirements. It then, has a culture of revisiting all decisions every two years and quite often changing the design. Then, the UK operator takes delight in looking across the pond and believing they can do no wrong.
I don’t mean to flipantly bash Yeovil. I’m British and would love to proudly stand behind machines made in Britain. Unfortunately the machines I’ve pesonally collected from Yeovil, as a comercial pilot, have been a bag of spanner’s. Consistently fail acceptance flight with basic things, radios not working- reason Ariel not connected due to cable not being long enough. Heating not working- heating pipe not conected, that’s just to get it to limp out of the factory. After 6 months in our engineers hands all the faults are rectified and they become fairly decent machines, well designed with some really good points. However I stand by my first hand experience of the initial build quality being very shoddy. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky but it sets a bad impression for me am afraid.

Cyclic Hotline

17th Dec 2019, 22:09

When is someone, or some entitiy either within the Military or Government going to stand up and demand accountability and a resolution to the inability of this platform to mee the elementary goals of Operational readiness, reliability and cost? This product has produced a greater threat to defensive capabilities than any other helicopter in history.

Even more remarkable is the fact that Customers keep ordering them, despite knowing that this is the greatest hangar Queen of all time. Quite remarkable. https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/6549026/defence-projects-57-years-behind-schedule-25-million-over-budget/?cs=9397

tartare

17th Dec 2019, 22:34

Bug smashing civilian plank driver here.
Got up close and personal with the MRH90 at ADFA open day a year or two ago.
It looked like a real piece of Gucci gear as they say in the army.
Very flash - lots of composite - nice EFIS screens.
And admittedly with absolutely no expertise whatsoever - my general impression was that a bunch of soldiers and pilots would probably very rapidly break it.
If it didn't break itself.
Sort of like a high end European car - looks great, but you just know the electrics are going to sh!t themselves when you least need them to.
Opposite it sat a Blackhawk.
Old, beaten up - chipped paint inside, steam gauges, and built like the proverbial - but still flying strong.
Just sayin...

noooby

18th Dec 2019, 16:46

Blackhawk9

18th Dec 2019, 21:51

And yet the RNZAF NH-90's just seem to keep on trucking. Even into an active volcano this week to drop in a team to recover bodies.

Makes you wonder what the RNZAF is doing different. Perhaps they just know how to make things work. Like their Seasprites. Been in service now for 20 odd years and the Aussies gave up on ever getting them into service.

Look a bit deeper, the NZ Defence Minister called them "Unreliable Money Guzzlers" , and said in the past NZ bought the wrong helicopter but are stuck with it for the next 20+ years, the previous Govt's defence minister questioned the on going costs of the NH-90 were far above projected costs, yes the Kiwi's are stuck with a POS like the Aussies.

The ADF know they are stuck with a Lemon to the extent the reports on it in the list of "projects of concern" have had restricted security classification put on them so they can't be released to the press, the Army never wanted the MRH , they already had new syllabuses already written up for pilot upgrade training and technician ground schools for the UH-60M when the Govt chose the MRH , wasting all the time and effort already put in to what was believed by every one in the ADF was the obvious choice, the UH-60M.
In the CT role the MRH can't do what a Black Hawk can to the extent the Army are planning on the future light CT helo will take a lot of the roles currently done by the Black Hawk but can't be done by the MRH.

tartare

18th Dec 2019, 23:20

Get rid of the frikkin' Taipan and buy the V-280, Australia.
NZ - you should do the same too - great for all those long-range SAR missions.
Composites in the right places - but looks like it has the soul of a Blackhawk.
Hitting all it's development targets and goes like a cut cat too.
Wishful thinking...

Autonomous Collectiv

19th Dec 2019, 09:14

noooby

19th Dec 2019, 21:06

Is that apart from having to replace all the carbon fibre floors as the soldiers rifles were wearing holes through as they were having to transport with dangerous end on the floor?

Even in my days on Hueys, you ALWAYS had grunts put the pointy end down. I'd rather a bullet go through the fuel tank than the rotor system. And from the Huey days.... If you didn't have load spreaders on the floor, guess what. Grunts would wreck the floor with stones stuck in their boots and from the pointy ends of their rifles. Delams and punctures in the honeycomb and patching or replacing floor panels. Don't think that this is a carbon fibre problem. This is a floor protection problem. Solved in the Hueys with sheets of plywood with holes drilled to line up with seat mounts etc.

The politicians who complain about these machines are the same people who are surprised that a twin engined fly by wire helicopter is more expensive than a UH-1 to operate. (Stuff Apr 21 2017). Now there's a surprise.

So they went from mechanical flight controls with no autopilot and all metal structure, to fly by wire with 4 axis advanced auto pilot, composite structure and a whole heap of other technological advances and they think there won't be any issues. The RNZAF didn't even teach their Aircraft Tech's about composite repairs. That's because it was the Wood Worker trade who did all the composite work. So it's no wonder that a 40+ year leap in technology almost overnight has caught them napping.

Apart from spares issues, how is the dispatch rate now? Spares are another issue entirely and if you have a tight contract, you can get compensation for a lack of spares availability.

tottigol

27th Dec 2019, 16:00

Look a bit deeper, the NZ Defence Minister called them "Unreliable Money Guzzlers" , and said in the past NZ bought the wrong helicopter but are stuck with it for the next 20+ years, the previous Govt's defence minister questioned the on going costs of the NH-90 were far above projected costs, yes the Kiwi's are stuck with a POS like the Aussies.

The ADF know they are stuck with a Lemon to the extent the reports on it in the list of "projects of concern" have had restricted security classification put on them so they can't be released to the press, the Army never wanted the MRH , they already had new syllabuses already written up for pilot upgrade training and technician ground schools for the UH-60M when the Govt chose the MRH , wasting all the time and effort already put in to what was believed by every one in the ADF was the obvious choice, the UH-60M.
In the CT role the MRH can't do what a Black Hawk can to the extent the Army are planning on the future light CT helo will take a lot of the roles currently done by the Black Hawk but can't be done by the MRH.

BlackHawk9, seems like you are having the proverbial case of sour grapes, go ahead and have some together with the Bell supporters.
"The Army already had syllabuses written up"? whose idea was it, someone who promised SuckHorsky that they would buy their museum pieces?

And Tartare, stick to what you know, apparently helicopters are not in that list.

havick

28th Dec 2019, 04:31

And then there’s The ARH Tiger. How long did it take to get that airframe to an operational status in a useful role? Is it fully operational and able to be deployed yet?

Blackhawk9

28th Dec 2019, 09:28

BlackHawk9, seems like you are having the proverbial case of sour grapes, go ahead and have some together with the Bell supporters.
"The Army already had syllabuses written up"? whose idea was it, someone who promised SuckHorsky that they would buy their museum pieces?

And Tartare, stick to what you know, apparently helicopters are not in that list.

Na mate, I was out well before they got the Airpuss ****boxes, I was happy on Iroquois, Chinooks, Black Hawks and Kiowa's, and at my age have enough licences that I never have to touch an Airpuss again quite happy on Sikorsky's and Bell's, the Army was honestly sure they were getting Mike models I think the most surprised was Chief Army , pure political decision , I believe it was John Anderson deputy PM and the Nat leader and Warren Truss who pushed for the MRH as it would be build here ie Australian Jobs , while the UH-60M's would come direct from the US like the MH-60R's did and that was the deciding factor to the pollies, didn't mater what the ADF wanted.
And the info I get ain't from troops or Junior offices , look at my age my mates still in are my age or a bit younger with equivalent rank.
Much more fun now to sit on the side and throw the occasional grenade .

Self loading bear

2nd Jul 2020, 16:33

perhaps already picked up in the other media by those who might be interested:

In Dutch (but Google is your friend)

NH90 €15.000 more expensive per hour than F16 (https://www.belgiandefencenews.be/news/vliegen-met-nh-90-is-a-rato-van-10-tot-15-000-euro-per-uur-duurder-dan-een-vlieguur-van-een-f-16/)

In short: by deploying the NH90 to Mali there where not enough NH90’s left for the pilots to stay current and Special Forces could also not train.

Belgium NH90 TTH basically grounded and phased out (https://www.aviation24.be/military-aircraft/belgian-air-component/belgian-air-force-reduces-nh-90-tth-use-and-retires-b-hunter-uav/)

500 Fan

4th Aug 2020, 08:02

I thought this was interesting. They sent an ARH Tiger attack helicopter on a SAR mission, even though they had a MRH90 on board the same ship that launched the Tiger? Interesting choice in SAR helicopter! Was the MRH90 down for maintenance, I wonder?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35343/australian-attack-helicopters-come-to-the-rescue-of-castaways-on-deserted-pacific-island

500 Fan.

Mk 1

4th Aug 2020, 12:42

Or Tiger with thermal sights and high resolution targeting optics might have been a smarter choice to supplement the Mk1 eyeball.

Ascend Charlie

5th Aug 2020, 01:24

...and if you don't like the look of the survivors, one flash and they're ash...

Blackhawk9

8th Aug 2020, 12:56

Hadn't been on in awhile and surprised the news wasn't on here, "The Royal Australian Navy’s 808SQN based at HMAS Albatross near Nowra will soon replace its Airbus MRH 90 helicopters with a new utility helicopter." ,
Looks like either more MH-60R's with quick fit interiors or MH-60S's.
MRH's will be transferred to the Army, But Army is looking at possible MRH replacement instead of midlife upgrade.

Cyclic Hotline

10th Aug 2020, 14:43

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/118986/defence-ministry-cuts-helicopter-flights-in-half-over-costs/
https://www.brusselstimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/444.png (https://www.brusselstimes.com/)

Defence ministry cuts helicopter flights in half over costs

Sunday, 28 June 2020

https://www.brusselstimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/NH90-c-NHIndustries.jpg
The NH-90 TTH used by the Belgian services. © AirbusThe defence ministry has ordered the number of flights by four transport helicopters to be cut in half because the aircraft are too expensive to maintain, the VRT reports.

The four NH-90 helicopters in the TTH or tactical troop helicopter version were bought by the government five years ago for €30 million each. The helicopter is approved by NATO, and constructed by the NHIndustries partnership made up of Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo Helicopters and Fokker Aerostructures.
However the defence ministry under Philippe Goffin (MR) has found that one hour of flight of the NH-90 costs no less than €12,000. And the aircraft break down so often the services do not have enough personnel to keep them flight-worthy.The hourly cost is more than double the €5,000 an hour it cost to run the NH-90’s predecessor, the Sea King. Belgium’s last three Sea Kings were decommissioned in 2019 after 40 years of service.

The ministry has now decided to cut the number of hours the helicopters are in the air from the previous target of 1,000 hours to 600. It will also commission a study to look at what might be done with the helicopters to obtain the optimum value for the cost. One option, the VRT reports, would be to get rid of them altogether.

The cut in hours does not, however, affect the four NH-90s in service with the navy, which are an adapted version of the transport aircraft. Those helicopters are used for air-sea rescue operations from the base at Koksijde, and will continue to operate as before.
The problems with the NH-90s are not new. In 2018 three of the four air-sea rescue craft had to be returned to NHIndustries for repairs to the radar systems, leaving only one in service. When that one also had to be grounded for servicing, Belgium’s neighbours temporarily had to step in to ensure a rescue service in Belgian waters.Alan Hope

Copyright © 2019 The Brussels Times. All Rights Reserved.

chopper2004

12th Oct 2020, 10:24

Cannot be all that bad ...As it happens France have signed up for NH90TTh Special Forces to be delivered in 2025 timeline...

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/10/france-signs-contract-for-upgraded-nh90-tth-for-special-forces.html
Anyhow I know it’s been in country and flying around for. While but officially Spanish Air Force have taken delivery of it’s First NH90 replacing the AS332M Super Puma at Cuatro Vientos.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/10/first-nh90-delivered-to-the-spanish-air-force-for-search-and-rescue-missions.html

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/3953f041-cfe4-4c7a-8876-d1a6fa490547-jpeg.512192/?hash=491a0c1f4b3d33ebf9b66805cce29b5a

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1429/81ce734e_62c4_4ba1_894c_8d2ee8a5861e_65671ded803796c3bc9ec6f 10dc94faf52c137a6.jpeg

cheers

rotor-rooter

4th Nov 2020, 17:27

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6987065/defence-admits-38b-helicopter-fleet-has-major-door-flaw/OCTOBER 28 2020 - 12:00AM'The door isn't wide enough': Defence heads admit the MRH-90 helicopter fleet has a major flaw

https://nnimgt-a.akamaihd.net/transform/v1/resize/frm/wVfaN4dWTUMKJDuE2XYSVu/5626f8a1-b85c-4349-ae6c-799ccbb54386.jpg/w37_h37_fcrop.jpg (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6987065/defence-admits-38b-helicopter-fleet-has-major-door-flaw/#)Sarah Basford Canales (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/profile/1055/sarah-basford-canales)

Federal Politics (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/federal-politics/) https://nnimgt-a.akamaihd.net/transform/v1/crop/frm/wVfaN4dWTUMKJDuE2XYSVu/bb7ec6a0-f960-47f8-b089-76ab4f498cde.jpg/r0_184_3600_2400_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg An Australian Army MRH-90 Taipan helicopter. Picture: Department of DefenceSenior military and defence department figures have confirmed a major design flaw with a Howard-era fleet of helicopters totalling nearly $3.8 billion has limited its operational capability even after attempted fixes.

Chief of Army Lieutenant General Richard Burr appeared before a Senate estimates committee on Tuesday morning and admitted the 47-strong fleet of MRH-90 Taipan helicopters suffered from a door flaw that limited its suitability for certain operations.

Upon questioning by Labor Senator Tim Ayres, General Burr confirmed the helicopter's design flaw meant that simultaneous suppression fire from a side mount gun while troops were rappelling was not possible.

General Burr said there had been "tactical workarounds" for mitigating the limitation but the Airbus-manufactured fleet would need to undergo a third round of adjustments to rectify the problem.

The workaround requires a second supporting helicopter to perform suppressive fire while the first helicopter allows its troops to rappel.

The committee heard Defence had initially replaced the original gun mount with a second one but it could not fit the preferred weapon, a minigun, or allow firing while troops rappelling. A third adjustment has been procured by Airbus Australia at the tune of $21.9 million.

First assistant secretary Shane Fairweather later confirmed it was the size of the door that was root of the problem.

"It's an issue of the width of the door," Mr Fairweather said.

"The door isn't wide enough to be able to exit safely while firing is taking place."

The third gun mount would minimise the time at which the firing couldn't take place but still wouldn't allow for simultaneous firing and rappelling. Mr Fairweather added it was "physically a limit of the door width" with the MRH-90 fleet.

The committee separately heard a tail rotor fault, which required the MRH-90 fleet to remain grounded (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6290013/defence-grounds-navy-and-army-mrh-90-helicopters/) for some of last year while it was modified, was the reason the fleet had only completed half of its expected flying hours.

Mr Fairweather explained it was an issue that affected a number of other nations as well.

READ MORE:

HMAS Albatross MRH-90 helicopters grounded (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6290013/defence-grounds-navy-and-army-mrh-90-helicopters/)
How a landing light from a Defence MRH-90 Taipan helicopter sparked the Orroral Valley fire (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6603221/how-a-mission-to-save-canberra-from-bushfires-sparked-the-worst-fire-threat-since-2003/)

The fleet, which cost $3.77 billion before sustainment costs are added, is scheduled to achieve its final operational capability by December 2021 with Navy using six MRH-90 helicopters but suffering a separate issue with its cargo hooks it is "very close" to resolving.

Defence minister Linda Reynolds said she and the Minister for Defence Industry Melissa Price had undertaken talks with Airbus in order to find a solution to the chopper's issues.

"I'm very, very aware of the issues that have plagued that part of this capability, which is why Melissa Price and I have met more than once with Airbus and with their CEO in relation to remediation of this project," Minister Reynolds said.

"We continue to monitor the project, very carefully with Airbus and with Defence."

Chief of Defence General Angus Campbell rushed to the defence of the MRH-90 fleet, describing it as "extraordinarily advanced".

"The MRH 90 is an extraordinarily advanced helicopter and it does do things that no other helicopter on the planet can do," General Campbell said.

"There is no perfect helicopter, there's no perfect machine or person and it is a matter of understanding how to fly that helicopter.

"You're quite right, there is an issue with the door guns. We know it. We're working on it."

chopper2004

6th Apr 2021, 09:38

Norwegian Coast Guard have concerns already so they are looking at leasing out a/c to fill in the shortfall.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/norway-outlines-coastguard-helicopter-lease-plan-to-make-up-for-nh90-shortfall/143160.article?fbclid=IwAR0H6kSkJDidrnbQxFFudSoMzsJmPZijlZgy 4VTIhLInGSJs-H-z_oiDo6w

minigundiplomat

6th Apr 2021, 22:55

Chief of Defence General Angus Campbell rushed to the defence of the MRH-90 fleet, describing it as "extraordinarily advanced".

"The MRH 90 is an extraordinarily advanced helicopter and it does do things that no other helicopter on the planet can do," General Campbell said.

What are these things? Rust?

Cyclic Hotline

20th Apr 2021, 20:53

https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarssjef-luftforsvaret-nh90/har-halvert-ambisjonsnivaet-for-nh90/193785

I just did a couple of quick calculations. Roughly $61.5M USD EACH. Original deliveries scheduled for 2005-2008 were years behind schedule, and now the annual fleet operational utilization plan has dropped from 5000 hours to 2100, and they are planning on leasing additional (Non NH-90) assets to make up the shortfall.

Does any other helicopter have such a continued poor performance record, and yet gets bought by the dozen by militaries (Politicians) all over the World? It is an astonishing demonstration of failure, and a major threat to the defence capabilities of any country engaged in their acquisition.Has halved the level of ambition for NH90- NH90 not delivered in accordance with the objective neither on flight hours nor accessibility for the coast guard and frigates, says Chief of Defense Eirik [email protected]@fofo.no
PUBLISHED Wednesday 14 April 2021 - 06:55 LAST UPDATED Wednesday 14 April 2021 - 08:48On Tuesday 13 April, General Eirik Kristofferen presented the Armed Forces 'annual report for 2020. It shows that the Armed Forces' operational capability increased somewhat during last year, including the phasing in of new materiel. (https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvaret-forsvarsdepartementet-forsvarsministeren/forsvarets-operative-evne-okte-noe-i-2020/193678)
Tip us:Do you have tips or suggestions for this or other issues? Send us an e-mail at: [email protected] or contact one of the journalists (https://forsvaretsforum.no/ansatte) directly .

But the challenges associated with the NH90 helicopters continue, according to the Chief of Defense.

- This is the last annual report in a long-term plan period. If we look over the last four years, NH90 has not delivered in accordance with the objective, neither in flight hours nor availability for coastguards and frigates, Kristoffersen says to the Armed Forces forum.
Still lower goalsThe Armed Forces' operational needs were over 5,000 flight hours with NH90.
The ambition level is now at 2100 hours.

- Now we are not even there, says the Chief of Defense and points out that the Armed Forces is not on target with flight time even with an ever lower level of ambition.

- It is serious and a challenge we must continue to work on, says Kristoffersen after the presentation of the annual report.
https://image.forsvaretsforum.no/193792.jpg?imageId=193792&width=706&height=403ANNUAL REPORT: Chief of Defense Eirik Kristoffersen and Minister of Defense Frank Bakke-Jensen during the presentation of the annual report. Photo: Torbjørn Kjosvold / The Armed ForcesHelicopter rentalAlso read: (https://forsvaretsforum.no/beredskap-helikopter-nh90/regjeringen-vil-leie-inn-helikoptre-til-forsvaret/191197)https://image.forsvaretsforum.no/147599.jpg?imageId=147599&x=0&y=0&cropw=100&croph=100&width=353&height=202 (https://forsvaretsforum.no/beredskap-helikopter-nh90/regjeringen-vil-leie-inn-helikoptre-til-forsvaret/191197)The government will lease helicopters to the Armed Forces (https://forsvaretsforum.no/beredskap-helikopter-nh90/regjeringen-vil-leie-inn-helikoptre-til-forsvaret/191197)NH90 does not fly enough and the factories struggle to deliver both helicopters and spare parts. (https://forsvaretsforum.no/beredskap-helikopter-nh90/regjeringen-vil-leie-inn-helikoptre-til-forsvaret/191197)
Kristoffersen points out that NH90 is an important part of the anti-submarine capacity of the frigates.

- It is serious that we do not yet have operational NH90 on board the frigates - it also means that the frigates are not fully operational either. It was due to the anti-submarine capacity that we went to procure such an advanced helicopter as the NH90, says Kristoffersen.

The Chief of Defense will therefore prioritize getting this in place first. With regard to the Coast Guard, the Armed Forces is looking at other solutions, including the use of drones and the hiring of helicopters.

- We will investigate whether there are alternatives. We are a nation with great expertise in, among other things, search and rescue. Then we will see if some of the tasks to be performed by NH90 can be done by other capacities, says Minister of Defense Frank Bakke-Jensen.
DelaysOne of the reasons why they are investigating alternatives to NH90 is due to delays and reduced availability of spare parts due to Covid-19.

- We must look at alternative solutions for the Coast Guard, such as hiring civilian helicopters. The Minister of Defense and I completely agree, says Eirik Kristoffersen.

- How fast should it get in place?

- The challenge now is that the Coast Guard spends so much time integrating NH90 that it spends some of the sailing time in open waters. Therefore, this solution should preferably be in place already.

Read also: The pandemic has cost the Armed Forces 348 million (https://forsvaretsforum.no/koronavirus-nyhetsvarsel/pandemien-har-kostet-forsvaret-348-millioner-kroner/193691)

- Do you have any faith that you will be able to reach an ambition level (with flight time) that is good enough with NH90 or do you have to look for other permanent solutions?

- I still believe that the NH90 can fly. I know NH90 from the Finnish special forces that have used them. It is a very good helicopter when it works. There are complex reasons why we have not reached the number of flight hours with NH90, but that does not mean that I have lost faith in it.
- Must find an answerMinister of Defense Frank Bakke-Jensen says that the NH90 project is progressing slowly, but that he has not lost faith in the project either.

According to Forsvarsmateriell, the acquisition of 14 NH90s has a cost framework of NOK 7.2 billion. And the helicopters were scheduled to be delivered between 2005-08. (https://www.fma.no/anskaffelser/helikopter-til-fregatt-og-kystvakt)

- The need for more flight time is here now. How and how fast are you going to find solutions to close those gaps in terms of flight time?

- I do not want to speculate on how long it will take. There are questions the report will find answers to, and I think it will be possible to find good answers to such questions, says Bakke-Jensen.

megan

21st Apr 2021, 01:53

Upon questioning by Labor Senator Tim Ayres, General Burr confirmed the helicopter's design flaw meant that simultaneous suppression fire from a side mount gun while troops were rappelling was not possibleAll the years of hard won combat experience with the D and H model Hueys in Vietnam were all for nought, unimpeded access to the cabin for the troops and the gunners having unimpeded ability to lay down fire. Trouble was the personnel in Oz with the experience were not retained by the services.

Evil Twin

21st Apr 2021, 09:58

So who is asking for their money back?

Flying Bull

22nd Apr 2021, 09:37

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1307/57x75_etmn_a01419f8248361fa51f95c0597f8db6f5df5bca1.jpg
German Navy NH90

Looks like the one or the other is actually flying
ETMN on the 21stt April 2021 ;-)

Doors Off

22nd Apr 2021, 13:32

All the years of hard won combat experience with the D and H model Hueys in Vietnam were all for nought, unimpeded access to the cabin for the troops and the gunners having unimpeded ability to lay down fire. Trouble was the personnel in Oz with the experience were not retained by the services.
Have they done a hot insertion (apart from Chinook) since Vietnam? How have the French and German achieved real hot insertions and extractions, land on and rappelling, with the same aircraft?

casper64

22nd Apr 2021, 14:37

Have they done a hot insertion (apart from Chinook) since Vietnam? How have the French and German achieved real hot insertions and extractions, land on and rappelling, with the same aircraft?

You can ask the same about Tiger... why are the French, Germans and Spanish able to operate their tigers with succes in various combat zones for more than a decade! Both from land and ships and the Australians seem not to be able...

Cyclic Hotline

22nd Apr 2021, 16:57

You can ask the same about Tiger... why are the French, Germans and Spanish able to operate their tigers with succes in various combat zones for more than a decade! Both from land and ships and the Australians seem not to be able...

You must be reading from the Australian playbook, which promised even more for less! There is always no better strategy than blaming your Customers for your own failures, it's always been a winning solution for this manufacturer.

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/airbus-calls-for-open-arh-replacement-competition

The Germans appear to differ from your understanding of events for BOTH the NH90 and the Tiger. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31694/germany-has-fewer-than-10-tiger-and-12-nh90-helicopters-ready-for-combat

casper64

23rd Apr 2021, 17:42

The Germans appear to differ from your understanding of events for BOTH the NH90 and the Tiger. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31694/germany-has-fewer-than-10-tiger-and-12-nh90-helicopters-ready-for-combat

well the subtitle of the article is quite interesting:Germany blames Airbus for the helicopters' low availability, but it is the latest example of the country's general continuing readiness woes.
especially the part after “but”... so is it really ONLY the manufacturers fault? Or a more general issue within some militaries on a budget like: ordering as much helicopters as possible for the given budget, but forgetting that these systems mostly require maintenance and spare parts? Maybe order them in reasonable quantities as well? It is always easy to blame a manufacturer, does not matter if it is in this case Airbus, or for example Lockheed for a JSF, but there is always a “backstory.

casper64

23rd Apr 2021, 17:45

The Germans appear to differ from your understanding of events for BOTH the NH90 and the Tiger. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31694/germany-has-fewer-than-10-tiger-and-12-nh90-helicopters-ready-for-combat

well the subtitle of the article is quite interesting:Germany blames Airbus for the helicopters' low availability, but it is the latest example of the country's general continuing readiness woes.
especially the part after “but”... so is it really ONLY the manufacturers fault? Or a more general issue within some militaries on a budget like: ordering as much aircraft as possible for the given budget, but forgetting that these systems mostly require maintenance and spare parts? Maybe order those in reasonable quantities as well? It is always easy to blame a manufacturer (not that they don’t play a part as well...), does not matter if it is in this case Airbus, or for example Lockheed for a JSF, but there is always a “backstory.

KiwiNedNZ

23rd Apr 2021, 22:25

So if the NH90 is such a lemon why do the RNZAF have such a high availability rate with their ones.

212man

24th Apr 2021, 14:39

Meanwhile, in Mali, it’s been in operational service for the last 6 years: https://www-helis-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.helis.com/database/news/sahel-nh90-6/

Cyclic Hotline

24th Apr 2021, 22:22

So if the NH90 is such a lemon why do the RNZAF have such a high availability rate with their ones.
This is an excellent question, Ned. Without comparing all the KPI's it's hard to assess any of it, but if an operator is succeeding when most others appear to be failing, that is surely critical information for every operator to analyze and incorporate into their programme. Included in that equation must be adequate budget and resources to support and operate the fleet, as quite rightly noted above.

KiwiNedNZ

25th Apr 2021, 00:50

Included in that equation must be adequate budget and resources to support and operate the fleet,

I would assume that these big European countries would have a MUCH BIGGER budget than a tiny little country here at the bottom of the world :)

henra

25th Apr 2021, 13:02

I would assume that these big European countries would have a MUCH BIGGER budget than a tiny little country here at the bottom of the world :)
@Casper64 summed it up perfectly at least for Germany. In Germany since the end of the cold war, the Defense Budget was always considered as the first option for executing cuts if money was tight. Since procurement numbers are typically contractually fixed, the cut- backs first hit maintenance and spare parts. Same applies if procurement programs exceed their defined budget. Only when it exceeds extreme thresholds this will result in procurement of lower quantities. Up to that point the money is squeezed out of the defence budget in other corners. Again Spare Parts and Maintenace being a cheap target.
All this results in catastrophic readiness rates across almost all sophisticated systems. In the last two decades adventures in foreign Countries also grabbed lots of defence money and at the same time put excessive load on equipment deployed. Bottom line: Even in bigger and rather rich countries depending on priorities money can be very short for keeping military equipment serviceable.

casper64

29th Apr 2021, 21:55

Maybe good news for the NH90 operators..

https://www-helis-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.helis.com/database/news/nh90-customer-support/

Blackhawk9

1st May 2021, 13:25

Maybe good news for the NH90 operators..

https://www-helis-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.helis.com/database/news/nh90-customer-support/

Anything would help , talked to a mate in Townsville, first AW139 on lease has arrived to enable aircrew to keep current as at present 16 MRH90's are parked up U/S with no projected serviceability date.

hihover

25th May 2021, 13:05

Hi, I'm looking for a few NFH Instructors for a 3 year contract in the Middle East starting sometime in 2022. I'm not an employment agency, I work directly for the man that wants them. Only NFH Instructors required at the moment. No package details are offered as yet but the standard package in this area would be around US $18k per month, you find your own housing and transport, 45 days leave per year. If you are ex-mil NFH or plan to be ex-mil NFH, feel free to send me a PM if interested.

Blackhawk9

18th Jun 2021, 15:26

The ADF has just grounded their MRH-90 fleet with Army and Navy over maintenance and safety concerns, Chinook , Black Hawk and Seahawk fleets making up shortfalls (approx 1/3 of fleet was already grounded because of spares issues) .

Cyclic Hotline

23rd Jun 2021, 17:23

Does anyone have more information as to what is happening here? What is the actual transmission overhaul period?

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/army-helicopters-grounded-due-to-safety-issues-adf-insiders-reveal/news-story/11fefdc0dd886815e4439e7b80fba910#new_tabArmy helicopters grounded due to safety issues, ADF insiders revealArmy insiders have revealed that an entire fleet of helicopters are “no longer safe to fly” – and safety has already been compromised
Kate Banville
44 comments (https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/army-helicopters-grounded-due-to-safety-issues-adf-insiders-reveal/news-story/11fefdc0dd886815e4439e7b80fba910#bottom-share)
JUNE 21, 20211:50PMDefence insiders claim the Australian Army’s Taipan helicopters are “no longer safe to fly”, revealing “potentially catastrophic” maintenance issues behind their suspension.

The MRH-90 Taipan fleet is used to transport troops and provide fire protection during special operations and counter-terrorism missions. But the entire fleet has been out of action and grounded since the beginning of June.

Australia’s defence department confirmed an investigation has been launched into the reasons behind the maintenance faults, suspending 47 helicopters from flying as a “precaution”.

“Defence has temporarily suspended flying operations of the MRH-90 helicopter fleet,” a defence spokesman said.

“The fleet was suspended as a safety precaution. The issue relates to the application of the helicopter’s maintenance policy in the helicopter’s IT support system.

“Defence and Airbus Australia Pacific are currently working collaboratively to remediate this issue.”

RELATED: Army quizzed over British concerns (https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/australian-defence-bosses-quizzed-over-british-army-concerns-with-israeli-military-technology/news-story/690284cf041b168c7c6d0d3b62588629)
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/8953f246cf5ef079f45d6e4cc67e2787?width=650The Army’s MRH-90 Taipan fleet has been deemed ‘no longer safe to fly’.Source:News Corp Australia

Speaking to news.com.au on the grounds of anonymity, multiple MRH-90 trained aviators claimed the cause of data mismatches was far worse than a software glitch.

“The aircraft transmission is required to undergo a complete overhaul on every second major servicing,” an insider said.

“That is meant to occur by Airbus in France but there is a global transmissions shortage so they’ve been rotating spare parts and refitting them as zero hours.

“That means there are aircraft flying as if they’re brand new which is a huge issue because there’s no accurate way of ensuring its safety.

“Obviously Defence isn’t getting what they paid for, but a main transmission failure is potentially catastrophic.”

RELATED: Shock advice to ‘attractive’ ADF cadets (https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/adf-chief-tells-cadets-they-should-avoid-making-themselves-prey-to-sexual-predators/news-story/3c38c54a0b19a13bbf3630525c77d260)
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/77e548a4ab59057b89e9009254a91dc7?width=650The MRH-90 Taipan helicopters are used to transport troops and provide fire protection during special operations and counter-terrorism missions.Source:Supplied

MRH-90 Taipan helicopters no longer being used

A Defence spokesman confirmed members of Townsville-based 5 Aviation Regiment were no longer expected to be flying the MRH-90 Taipan in Australia’s largest bilateral war games with the US, after also missing out on this week’s Exercise Sea Explorer.

The spokesman said army and navy aviation would “continue to support their exercise and operational commitments with Tiger, Chinook, Black Hawk and Sea Hawk helicopters”.

The latest incident comes as defence officials concede a fault found in one of the helicopters in 2019 amid serious concerns about the tail rotor blades – when it was on its way to pick up the Australian Defence Force chief, Angus Campbell – could have led to “catastrophic consequences” if left unfixed.

A spokesperson for Airbus Helicopters said it is working closely with Australia to resolve the situation and end the suspension as soon as possible. They said the integrity and safety of the MRH-90 fleet and the members of the ADF operating them remain their priority.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9581213d24c777979aee0400d4a25cf6?width=650Townsville-based 5 Aviation Regiment missed out on Exercise Sea Explorer.Source:Supplied

Taipan brought in to replace Black Hawk

The Taipan was introduced into the army and navy in 2004 as a replacement for the Black Hawk helicopter which was expected to begin being phased out from August this year. The navy has already moved to offload its share of the aircraft to the army due to lack of spare parts availability and running costs.

Defence sources say that was now unlikely given the Sydney-based 6 Aviation Regiment was already experiencing delays in incorporating the Taipan into its dedicated special forces support role.

“Defence has already begun advertising to sell off Black Hawk which are due to be gone by the end of the year so that leaves no troop airlift capability for Special Operations Command,” the source said.

“That has massive implications on our Special Forces to deliver a counter-terrorism capability domestically.”

Previous figures provided by the Defence Department estimates the total cost of the MRH-90 Taipan program will be $15 billion by the time the helicopters are due to be withdrawn from service in 2037, including $3.7 billion for the purchase and $11.3 billion to sustain them.

Defence has also begun flying two Leonardo AW139 helicopters in Townsville after a contract was signed to lease from Helicorp, known as Toll Helicopters, as an interim measure to ensure pilots remain up to date with flight hours.

“The total cost of the contract, until June 30, 2023, is $37 million,” the department said in questions on notice from Senate estimates hearings earlier this year.

Kate Banville is a freelance writer.

KiwiNedNZ

23rd Jun 2021, 18:16

Interesting as I was chatting with someone in the know on this the other day and they said the issue is entirely the ADFs own fault. Apparently when parts were moved from one aircraft to another while one was in deep maintenance and they needed the parts for another airframe the record keeping wasnt up to scratch - not sure if thats electronic or paper versions and now when they did an audit the problems arose.

Someone here might know if this is correct or not.

gulliBell

23rd Jun 2021, 21:30

They should be sourcing parts off the shelf, not off other helicopters.

KiwiNedNZ

23rd Jun 2021, 22:38

I presume they would if they had them.

gulliBell

23rd Jun 2021, 23:19

$15B for 47 helicopters is a lot of money to have been spent on the NH90 program not to have parts sitting on the shelf.

Doors Off

24th Jun 2021, 02:30

$15B for 47 helicopters is a lot of money to have been spent on the NH90 program not to have parts sitting on the shelf.

Apparently that is the problem. The magical Australian maintenance management system, was not logging life, when the parts were on the shelf. Here is hoping that an appropriate Senate's Estimate occurs and people are held accountable.

gulliBell

24th Jun 2021, 02:41

There is a lot to be said for buying an off-the-shelf helicopter and not messing with it (UH-1H, UH-60, Kiowa all had very long relatively drama free service life). Look what happens when they buy the plastic fantastics built to a one-off specification (Seasprite, Tiger, Taipan).

industry insider

24th Jun 2021, 08:08

Doors Off

24th Jun 2021, 11:45

They should just replace the whole lot with MOTS UH-60Ms.The MH60-R program has gone well, the C17 program has gone well. Our biggest ally is the USA, interoperability would be improved by buying UH-60s via FMS. Its hard to think of an Airbus Helicopter product purchased by the ADF using our money that has actually worked operationally as advertised.
M’s didn’t exist when 90 did. I’m an Airbus lover, so I’ll declare that however, ADF and operations - stop and think, do some research out of the self loving Oz bubble and yea shall soon discover that other nations have (and still do) deploy the same platforms (Airbus) into real combat operations. Is it Airbus, or is it ineptitude inside of the Australian operator? Much easier to blame the manufacturer than accept responsibility for incompetence.

Blackhawk9

24th Jun 2021, 13:48

KiwiNedNZ

24th Jun 2021, 19:39

reason ADF looking at little birds for Spec ops as the MRH can't do it properly

Short list is H145 and Bell 429 no littlebirds in the mix.

Doors Off

24th Jun 2021, 21:27

UH-60M was available when the NH-90 was ordered (saw production versions at Sikorsky in US in 2004), Aust Army already had guy's in US to train on the Mike when the decision as made politely to buy the NH-90 (Wheat deal with France one of the big incentives , deal fell thru after NH-90 ordered), no one in Army wanted NH-90 ,Navy were the ones who pushed for it and are now getting rid of them, to be replaced with a Sikorsky product but Army stuck with it, reason ADF looking at little birds for Spec ops as the MRH can't do it properly , if we had 60M's wouldn't need to acquire little bird.
What, so the Australian Army had a squadron, 2 squadron’s a regiment’s worth of guys in the US ready to train on an aircraft that didn’t exist in 2004? The US didn’t even award a contract to Sikorsky for UH60M for it’s own forces until late 2007. But let’s not let facts get in the road of a good story. From the situation you are painting, it appears that the answer is the V280 or Defiant - it’s flying now and I’m sure there is an Australian in the US who could fly it and bring it to Oz.

I’m confused by the reasoning you provide in relation to “Little Birds” which Ned has pointed out, will be either H145M or 429. Is the reason the US use little birds because the UH60M can’t do the job properly?

Back to the thread though. I feel for the maintainers and aircrew in Oz Army Aviation who can’t practice their skill sets whilst their aircraft are grounded. Hopefully, as a tax payer, the maintenance system issues are resolved and they get airborne again soon.

Vortexringshark

24th Jun 2021, 22:04

I wonder if this would have happened if the ADF had kept the helicopters under RAAF command. Air Forces are set up for the purpose of air operations and have a better grip on general airworthiness .

In saying that the RAAF might have some input in the way things are run. I don't know the in's and outs of the ADF system.

Blackhawk9

25th Jun 2021, 01:11

'Little Bird" just a nick name for small twin I should have been specific (407, MH-6 etc in original mix now down to the two twins) . Mike model first flew in 2003, low rate production 2005, first 22 delivered 2006. Several pilots and fitters were in US to get a heads up on what was "hoped" to be the new helo, as far as I know (and remember) no one was in Europe to get a heads up on the NH-90.

[email protected]

25th Jun 2021, 09:42

In saying that the RAAF might have some input in the way things are run. I don't know the in's and outs of the ADF system. ISTR that when the RAAF helicopters were transferred to the Army, many of the experienced engineers chose not to go as they didn't want to be treated like grunts.

Blackhawk9

26th Jun 2021, 05:47

ISTR that when the RAAF helicopters were transferred to the Army, many of the experienced engineers chose not to go as they didn't want to be treated like grunts.
Yes I was one , the Army massively miscalculated with technicians, when the Navy lost the carrier and the fixed wing about 75 % jumped to the Air Force and some to the Army , the Army assumed when the Helo's went to the Army the techo's would follow , but most of us had years of working with Army with Iroquois, Chinooks and Black Hawks and the last thing most of us wanted was to be Army, because the numbers they expected to xfer never happened it meant RAAF personnel were at Army units for up to the next 5 or so years and the Army had to train more guys up than expected and experience level dropped accordingly.
Of interest in the early 90's a group from Army HQ Postings and promotions came to 5 Avn, to talk to techo's out of interest they asked the hypothetical question if the Helo's went back to the RAAF who would go , the whole room stuck their hand up, not the response they expected.
I was 9 Sqn RAAF (Iroquois & Black Hawks) and 12 Sqn Chinooks , then 5 Avn (still RAAF) , I did Army Reserve when I got out of RAAF at 5 Avn.

Doors Off

28th Jun 2021, 14:45

casper64

28th Jun 2021, 21:41

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/uk-returns-pumas-from-afghanistan

Meanwhile, the Australian’s complain about door size and lack of door gun. The photo, in the linked article, would tend to indicate that the complaints are misdirected. Did Oz deploy Blackhawks to Afghanistan, like the French and Germans deployed their NH-90’s to Afghanistan and Mali?

Nope… just like they did not deploy their Tigers to Afghanistan or Mali or Libya which the French, Germans and Spanish did as well…. But it’s all the fault of the airframes…. They are simply not good enough..🤔

Blackhawk9

9th Dec 2021, 16:48

Just announced Australia to dump MRH-90 and buy Black Hawks
After more than 11 years of trying to make them work and extending the retirement date of the S-70A-9 Black Hawk multiple times because of MRH-90 faults the ADF has finally had enough and announced the purchase of 40 new build UH-60M's to replace the MRH-90 .

josephfeatherweight

9th Dec 2021, 23:17

ginty79

10th Dec 2021, 04:04

So if the NH90 is such a lemon why do the RNZAF have such a high availability rate with their ones.

Good point Ned. A bad tradesman blames his tools!!

Vortexringshark

11th Dec 2021, 01:27

Watch as Australia gets another capable helicopter and struggles to do anything with it. Although this is what the ADF wanted the whole time so maybe they will put effort into making it a success rather than whinging (no offence to the guys and girls who did their best with the MRH to try and make it succeed).

Doors Off

11th Dec 2021, 04:53

The “it’s not a Blackhawk” whiny crowd get a win at Billions. Yes, NH is a cottage industry and going forward in the current strategic environment and MUMT technology, buying US is a must. With all the kit the Australian’s had, they only deployed a couple of Chinooks into 1 theatre of the GWOT in 20 years. Imagine if the UK or France or Canada were so risk averse.

212man

11th Dec 2021, 11:32

Good point Ned. A bad tradesman blames his tools!!
it’s funny how many other nations just ‘get in with it’ and you never hear anything. Oman has 18, for instance. France deploys to West Africa on operations (Tiger too). Italy deployed to Afghanistan. Etc…..

Sumpor Stylee

11th Dec 2021, 20:06

True though France Italy and Germany as principal partners in the making of NH90 get spares first and foremost. Others have very poor serviceability records. Take Norway or Belgium as examples. Also look how many engineering and support staff Germany have sent to Gao in Mail to support 3 airframes for medevac replacing a civilian EC225 that carried twice as many stretchers….it’s funny how many other nations just ‘get in with it’ and you never hear anything. Oman has 18, for instance. France deploys to West Africa on operations (Tiger too). Italy deployed to Afghanistan. Etc…..

minigundiplomat

12th Dec 2021, 09:19

Nope… just like they did not deploy their Tigers to Afghanistan or Mali or Libya which the French, Germans and Spanish did as well…. But it’s all the fault of the airframes…. They are simply not good enough..🤔

Australia shared an AO with the Dutch, who had already deployed their Apaches. The South was very hot n high, not sure how the MRH90 would have fared performance wise out of TK, just as the UK never deployed the Puma to Helmand.

As you raised Mali, if the MRH90 has it covered, can they send the UK chinooks back?

chopper2004

13th Dec 2021, 05:24

Aeronavale received their 27h NFH

https://twitter.com/MarineNationale/status/1469577695759458304

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/fgqxsotxoaem26z_bcdd386af37b98a8c07fe25514eefdffb8a8798d.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/fgqxsouwyaaxqob_5aa4cabf556f888fea7552aab6c3c6c1a37beeac.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/fgqxsouxwauw9n3_9e5c559f7b092d8d4340e0f36960d8fbace41ce4.jpg
Think the Qataris should be next as their first one flew last year at Leonardo Cacina Costa or Verigiate.

cheers

Doors Off

13th Dec 2021, 11:44

Incredible, oh wait - no it’s not, that other nations can make the same aircraft operate successfully, deploy them to real operations and the Australians can’t. It’s embarrassing, but that’s ok, the Australians now have a General in command to run the equivalent of a US Regiment. I don’t begrudge the purchase of off the shelf common equipment in the current APAC strategic situation however, at least be honest.

casper64

13th Dec 2021, 12:18

Australia shared an AO with the Dutch, who had already deployed their Apaches. The South was very hot n high, not sure how the MRH90 would have fared performance wise out of TK, just as the UK never deployed the Puma to Helmand.

As you raised Mali, if the MRH90 has it covered, can they send the UK chinooks back?

As the Dutch Pumas have operated there as well if I recall, the NH90 could have as well… same for the Tiger (which the French operated out of Kabul which was even higher…. As for Chinooks… can’t compare a Chinook with an NH90 or a Blackhawk… that’s why the USArmy has both of them as well. So I assume both have their own roles/missions in Mali or simply complement each other.

minigundiplomat

13th Dec 2021, 13:15

As the Dutch Pumas have operated there as well if I recall, the NH90 could have as well… same for the Tiger (which the French operated out of Kabul which was even higher…. As for Chinooks… can’t compare a Chinook with an NH90 or a Blackhawk… that’s why the USArmy has both of them as well. So I assume both have their own roles/missions in Mali or simply complement each other.

Id suggest you don’t quite know what you’re talking about. The Dutch cougars were at Kandahar not TK and never moved - weeds growing out fo the wheels. I’m not even sure the crews were in country.

Yes Kabul is higher, it’s also much cooler.

KiwiNedNZ

13th Dec 2021, 16:20

Incorrect on the Dutchies not doing anything and yes their crews were in country. Regularly shot pics of them coming and going from Kandahar on my various trips.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51745235690_27173e714d_h.jpgA080 by Ned Dawson, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51744592558_6bdd195b9f_h.jpgA021 by Ned Dawson, on Flickr

minigundiplomat

13th Dec 2021, 19:33

Never saw them airborne in numerous years of parking next to them Ned, I think you did well snapping them. Also being airborne and providing a capability are two very different things.

casper64

13th Dec 2021, 20:18

Never saw them airborne in numerous years of parking next to them Ned, I think you did well snapping them. Also being airborne and providing a capability are two very different things.

They were plenty airborne… you can find a lot of articles in Dutch language. Here’s one in English:
https://m.reliefweb.int/report/228913/afghanistan/afghanistan-isaf-forces-continue-rescue-flood-victims?lang=fr

KiwiNedNZ

14th Dec 2021, 00:40

Also being airborne and providing a capability are two very different things.

Totally agree on that - the crews I flew with hated working with them as the Aussies were flying around at 50ft, the US anywhere between 0-200ft and the Dutchies at about 10,000ft :) :)

casper64

14th Dec 2021, 13:17

Totally agree on that - the crews I flew with hated working with them as the Aussies were flying around at 50ft, the US anywhere between 0-200ft and the Dutchies at about 10,000ft :) :)
Which is quite smart considering the threat level there…. Big advantage: you can see a lot more! 😃

minigundiplomat

14th Dec 2021, 13:46

Which is quite smart considering the threat level there…. Big advantage: you can see a lot more! 😃

Unfortunately the helicopters are there for a reason other than just enjoying the view; those reasons are in FOB’s, and not not FL100

Cyclic Hotline

14th Dec 2021, 14:44

I would imagine that NH Industries might do quite well to hire Team NZ to demonstrate their techniques and methods of operating and managing this platform firstly to themselves, and secondly to all the other operators of this platform. After the Norwegians elected to continue with deliveries, they are now looking for a commercially operated shipborne solution to fill the void!

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/norway-considers-nh90-alternatives-to-meet-coastguard-requirements08 DECEMBER 2021
Norway considers NH90 alternatives to meet coastguard requirementsby Gareth Jennings

Norway is to field 14 NH90 NFH helicopters, of which eight will be used for coastguard, and six for anti-submarine and other maritime duties. For the embarked coastguard role, the country is looking at a commercially leased alternative to meet its requirements. (NHIndustries)

Norway has issued a request for information (RFI) for alternatives to its NHIndustries NH90 helicopters that are not able to meet all of the requirements of the country's coastguard.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) told Janes on 7 December that is gauging market interest should it decide to move forward with acquiring a long-term supplemental capability to the NH90s, by leasing an embarked helicopter capability from a commercial vendor.

“The Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency (NDMA) is exploring opportunities to procure leased aircraft services in support of coastguard operations within the Norwegian maritime area of responsibility focusing on the high north, the northern Atlantic, the Barents Sea, Svalbard, Jan Mayen,” the RFI stated. “The leased aircraft service will need to provide reliable and efficient embarked support to the coastguard vessels throughout the year during peacetime”

TheRoNAF has to date received 11 of 14 NH90 NATO Frigate Helicopters (NFHs), eight of which plans to operate on behalf of the Norwegian Coast Guard (NoCG) with the type being embarked on NoCG vessels. The MoD told Janes that a commercial leasing option would not see the NH90s being replaced, though it noted that it is considering a long-term solution to supplement the type in service. The RoNAF also operates 10 Leonardo AW101 Merlin helicopters in the land-based search and rescue (SAR) role.

megan

15th Dec 2021, 03:10

it’s funny how many other nations just ‘get in with it’ and you never hear anything. Oman has 18, for instance. France deploys to West Africa on operations (Tiger too). Italy deployed to AfghanistanThe devil is in the detail as you would well know 212. There is an article saying Germany has had a serviceability rate of some 12% or so with its NH90 and Tiger, placing the blame on Airbus who does the maintenance. Where does the truth lie? You'd need someone with the wisdom of Solomon to discern the truth.

casper64

15th Dec 2021, 06:57

Unfortunately the helicopters are there for a reason other than just enjoying the view; those reasons are in FOB’s, and not not FL100
If you carrying these troops from an FOB to somewhere else you want to do that in the safest possible way. Based on the threat level in Afghanistan that was in “10.000ft” (or at least above the small-arms band and not in 50ft where every lucky guy with an AK on the ground can put a hole in you. If there is no radar or manpad threat, no reason to fly low unless for a surprise effect at the destination. From what I heard both Dutch and Australian troops, as well as some Americans who worked with the Dutch were happy that they were there to either transport them or save their arse. But we are digressing from the NH topic :-)

minigundiplomat

15th Dec 2021, 12:29

casper64

15th Dec 2021, 14:47

There was a very credible manpad threat, and airspace was worked in blocks depending on user/type - its not just as simple as flying around at 10,000 feet because you deem it safe. Let's just leave it there, as the more you type, the more obvious it is that you've no idea what you're talking about, which is why my responses don't contain the phrase 'from what I heard......'

You are wrong… spend a few hundred hours flying there and then. (Not in Cougars..) Talked to many nationalities operating on the ground… hence the “what I heard” And as I was stating, they weren’t flying at 10.000 ft but above the small-arms threat band, being protected by their EWS system for the very unlikely event of a manpad launch. And yes there were missions were this threat was higher and they subsequently operated low level as well.
Again let’s go back to the NH topic.

minigundiplomat

15th Dec 2021, 19:51

You are wrong… spend a few hundred hours flying there and then. (Not in Cougars..) Talked to many nationalities operating on the ground… hence the “what I heard” And as I was stating, they weren’t flying at 10.000 ft but above the small-arms threat band, being protected by their EWS system for the very unlikely event of a manpad launch. And yes there were missions were this threat was higher and they subsequently operated low level as well.
Again let’s go back to the NH topic.

Maybe you flew in Afghanistan, but not in the South (unless you had a Stab call sign and left everytime you were needed). Manpads weren’t an unlikely event - many of us saw them.

You’re the one that dragged Afghanistan into the NH discussion. But please, if you’ve finished taking sh1t let’s get back to the NH90

Cyclic Hotline

15th Jan 2022, 20:23

Very interesting comment regarding the performance of the NH-90 and Tiger from the French Minister of the Armed Forces during the celebrations for the huge H160 order placed by the French Government.

Florence Parly came with gifts in her hood but also demands. She no longer wants to encounter the same difficulties with the “Cheetah” as with the “Tiger” and the “Caiman”. " In 2019-2020 three out of four "Tigers" were grounded due to maintenance problems, while the armed forces needed them badly in Mali ". Since then, progress, hailed by the Minister, has been made. “ In 2021, 37% of the fleet could be in the air at the same time ”. But the Cayman is still floundering. The maintenance in operational condition clause is now included in this new contract from the outset.

https://destimed.fr/Deplacement-de-Florence-Parly-a-Airbus-helicopters-un-contrat-historique-de-169

Cyclic Hotline

16th Jan 2022, 09:32

Much greater detail contained in the report from the German Inspector General.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/germany-pans-nh90-and-tiger-helicopters-for-low-availability-rates/147121.articleGermany pans NH90 and Tiger helicopters for low availability ratesBy Dominic Perry (https://www.flightglobal.com/dominic-perry/263.bio)14 January 2022

Germany’s fleets of NH Industries (NHI) NH90s and Airbus Helicopters Tigers are again the subject of stinging criticism for their poor operational availability, with their performance branded as “unsatisfactory”.

Detailing the issues in the defence ministry’s latest operational readiness report, Inspector General Eberhard Zorn says that the helicopters operated by the three branches of the armed forces collectively demonstrated a readiness level of just 40% in the year to mid-December 2021, compared with an overall figure of 77% for the country’s 71 main weapon systems, or 65% for combat and transport aircraft.

Although an improvement on previous years, Zorn says, the figure is “still at too low a level” and is “unsatisfactory”.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/7/9/84379_tigerandnh90cbundeswehrjpg_912694.jpg

Source: Bundeswehr

Tiger (foreground) and NH90 both suffer from low availability rates

While that is in some cases explained by the continued use of legacy rotorcraft such as the navy’s Westland Sea Lynx and Sea Kings, plus the Sikorsky CH-53Gs operated by the air force, Zorn singles out the army’s NH90 troop transports and Tiger attack helicopters for particular censure.

“The reason for the low level of operational readiness remains, especially with ‘complex’ helicopters like the NH90 TTH, NH90 Sea Lion or the Tiger attack helicopter, the very time-consuming maintenance and inspection systems as well as the ongoing retrofitting measures to harmonsise the build standard,” he says.

He cites the nine different sub-variants of NH90 operated by the armed forces as presenting a particular challenge to support from a logistics perspective; the need for specific spare parts, tooling and training have an “aggravating” effect, he says.

Retrofit activities on the NH90s conducted by NHI consortium member Airbus Helicopters in France have been time-consuming, he says, citing delivery delays of up to 12 months, not helped by Covid-19 restrictions.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/7/8/84378_germanynh90cbundeswehr_869516.jpg

Source: Bundeswehr

NH90 retrofit activity is taking longer than anticipated to complete

Although maintenance timelines have reduced, says the report – halving the time taken under a previous contract – this was offset by spare parts shortages.

However, Zorn is hopeful this will improve from 2023, when a new centralised spare parts contract for all NH90 operators comes into effect.

NHI president Nathalie Tarnaud Laude recently acknowledged the manufacturer was falling short on maintenance and support provision (https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/nh90-operators-will-see-availability-boost-by-end-2022-nhi-president/146956.article) and said it had begun a process to rectify the situation.

The German navy’s NH90 Sea Lions have also shown low availability levels, but this is in part due to the programme still being in its early stages and the disproportionate impact of absences on a small fleet; Cirium fleets data records just five examples in service.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/8/0/84380_h145mcbundeswehr_129856.jpg

Source: Bundeswehr

Operations in sandy conditions have taken their toll on H145M fleet

Meanwhile, the operational readiness level of the Tiger “continues to be an unsatisfactory one”.

This has been driven by a “traffic jam” at repair depot level due to a lack of capacity. Efforts to reduce the backlog will begin in 2023, but will not be completed before 2026, the report warns.

A separate process to streamline the maintenance process is also in train, with steps to be implemented until 2026 to “achieve a significant increase in material readiness”.

Older helicopters such as the CH-53G, Sea King and Sea Lion suffer from “age-related susceptibility to malfunctions and a difficult spare parts situation” and can only “be maintained with great effort”, Zorn notes.

The only rotorcraft not to attract criticism is the Airbus Helicopters H145M – flown by both the army and air force – although the operation of the type in Africa’s sandy environment did pose some challenges.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/7/6/84376_a400mcbundeswehr_792257.jpg

Source: Bundeswehr

Lack of programme maturity has pushed up A400M maintenance costs

Elsewhere, Zorn offers a relatively positive assessment of the Airbus Defence & Space A400M, which he describes as the “go-to tool” during the evacuation of Afghanistan.

Up to 10 A400Ms were available during the period, from a total fleet of 35, the report says. The focus is now on improving the transport’s military capabilities, it says.

However, Zorn adds: “The unsatisfactory technical product maturity of the A400M continues to result in increased maintenance costs, which clearly exceed the capacities of the air force.

“I therefore welcome that the related activities to improve the situation are now being coordinated and vigorously pursued by a steering group led by the [defence ministry] with the involvement of industry to sustainably improve the material readiness of the A400M.”

Little is said about the air force’s Eurofighter fleet, other than to note the overall positive trend in availability, aided by improved access to spare parts.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/7/7/84377_tornadocbundeswehrjpg_730091.jpg

Source: Bundeswehr

Maintaining Tornado fleet is an increasing challenge

But it is a different story for the Luftwaffe’s elderly Panavia Tornado fleet, where material readiness is “increasingly challenging” to maintain and “can only be ensured with great effort”.

Repair times have also extended enormously: a 300h inspection that used to take 60 working days to complete now lasts for 180 work days, and the duration of a depot-level inspection has risen to 18 months from eight months previously.

“In addition, the risk of obsolescence that can no longer be controlled increases with every day of operation,” says Zorn, noting to the appearance of cracks in the refuelling probe and components that are no longer repairable.

Germany is attempting to procure a successor to the Tornado (https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/boeing-seeks-german-industry-partners-for-super-hornet/growler-bid/147116.article), enabling its retirement by 2030.

EESDL

16th Jan 2022, 15:32

You know that when NHI top dogs admit that there is a problem then the problem is a lot worse than stated.
Masters for understating the issue.
A clear indictment of Airbus and Leonardo capacity and capabilities - or lack of.
Let’s see how the ‘blame game’ develops….
The NH90 fiasco has left numerous nations with severe chasm in their defence capability.
Conspiracy time. Maybe it’s the result of Airbus’s Chinese links and Leonardo Russian links affecting capabilities ?
I wonder if the account of the EH101’s poor availability will be mentioned during the forthcoming television documentary?
US Marines mentioned the poor support during this years’s GDH in Warsaw…..

Flying Bull

16th Jan 2022, 17:23

If you are military - you need spares on the shelf and not rely on ordering some via complicated ways (to many who needs to sign the approval)
No wonder they're down most of the time.
Still, it seems, they haven't learned from the past.
When we went to sea for BOST with two SeaLynx on a frigate - we had three sets of sealing parts for the generator, which are needed with each generator change/swap.
Engine swap/finding problems by interchanging ie generators - you can imagine, how fast you can ground the helicopter?
So we flew to Portland, with some things to swap for parts........ - which helped to run the system - but not to show the problems of the system...

megan

16th Jan 2022, 22:22

Spare me spares. Was a time when the entire fleet of our Wessex were grounded because of lack of a serviceable certain part, stores had spares on the shelf but couldn't issue them because they were minimum stock.

Cyclic Hotline

14th Feb 2022, 13:45

The NH90 continues to generate all the wrong kind of press - once again the Norwegians are threatening to terminate the programme. When you consider that 6 aircraft are continuing to operate in a "preliminary" configuration, and the last aircraft is 14 years late on delivery! What a disaster and what a threat to Western defence credibility for anyone that made the mistake of ordering them.

https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarsministeren-helikopter-nh90/forsvarsministeren-norge-vurderer-a-droppe-nh90-helikoptrene/245557Newshttps://image.forsvaretsforum.no/245563.jpg?imageId=245563&width=1058&height=604LOW TRUST: A helicopter of the type NH90. According to the Minister of Defense, Norway has little confidence in the producer. Photo: Paul Kleiven / NTB.Minister of Defense: Norway is considering dropping the NH90 helicoptersNorway is considering terminating the contract with the NH90 helicopters, says Minister of Defense Odd Roger Enoksen (Sp). They should have been delivered in 2008, but one is still [email protected]
PUBLISHED Wednesday, 09 February 2022 - 12:53 LAST UPDATED Wednesday 09 February 2022 - 13:22Enoksen asks the Ministry of Defense to start work on looking at maritime helicopters for the Armed Forces all over again, writes Aftenposten (https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/34KQyq/forsvarsministeren-taalmodigheten-med-skandalehelikopteret-er-slutt) .
Tip us:Do you have tips or suggestions for this or other issues? Send us an e-mail at: [email protected] or contact one of the journalists (https://forsvaretsforum.no/ansatte) directly .

One possibility that is being considered is to terminate the contract for NH90.

The acquisition of the NH90 helicopters has long been scandal-ridden. Norway ordered 14 of the helicopters in 2001.

All of these should have been in operation in Norway in 2008, on board coastguard ships and navy frigates. 14 years later, one helicopter is still missing.

- We have now received 13 helicopters. But six of these are in a preliminary version. We hear from the Italian supplier that they may be upgraded in 2023, perhaps in 2024, says Enoksen.
Read more: (https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarssjef-luftforsvaret-nh90/har-halvert-ambisjonsnivaet-for-nh90/193785)https://image.forsvaretsforum.no/193790.jpg?imageId=193790&x=0&y=0&cropw=100&croph=100&width=353&height=202 (https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarssjef-luftforsvaret-nh90/har-halvert-ambisjonsnivaet-for-nh90/193785)The ambition level for NH90 halved (https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarssjef-luftforsvaret-nh90/har-halvert-ambisjonsnivaet-for-nh90/193785)- But the fact is that we now have little confidence in the supplier NHI.

There has been a lot of trouble with the NH90 helicopters. In 2019, it became clear that they would be more expensive to operate than first thought. (https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarssjef-haakon-bruun-hanssen-horing/nh90-dobbelt-sa-dyr-i-drift/103667)Then the delivery was further delayed. (https://forsvaretsforum.no/leveransen-av-nh90-blir-ytterligere-forsinket/109068)At the end of 2019 , the Coast Guard expressed strong concern (https://forsvaretsforum.no/kystvakten-sterkt-bekymret-for-helikopterberedskapen/111630) about helicopter preparedness, as a result of the problems with NH-90.

Norway has also previously considered terminating the contract, including in 2008, but it is estimated that it will be about as expensive to keep the contract as to terminate it.

Since it has now been even more years without all the helicopters being delivered, and it is also not clear when this will happen, it should again be considered to terminate the contract, says Enoksen.

- Termination of the contract will be neither easy nor free of charge. But this is an expression of the end of patience.

In 2018, the Office of the Auditor-General concluded that the Armed Forces and taxpayers had spent NOK 8 billion on something that had not been delivered.

Vortexringshark

14th Feb 2022, 17:30

I really don't understand how companies can get away with this without serious repercussions. Who writes the contracts? Why do they not get upheld?

I get why NHI can get away with it though. They don't care about their reputation and aren't trying to sell anything else. Just milking the NH90 for all its worth.

RVDT

14th Feb 2022, 18:23

AAKEE

15th Feb 2022, 18:58

Neither party knows what each other actually wants and there is no incentive to get the aircraft delivered. Multiple junkets on both sides - this is "normal" and each aircraft is "special".

Some people in the role have made a career out of it by the looks. No real surprise. The Norwegian one is "tall" and completely different frame for example.

Internally known as the "No Hope" 90.

By ”tall” you mean high cabin?

If so, the high cabin is the Swedish NH90. Only Sweden did get the high cabin.

The Norwegians have the standard ”low” cabin.

RVDT

16th Feb 2022, 05:45

By ”tall” you mean high cabin?

If so, the high cabin is the Swedish NH90. Only Sweden did get the high cabin.

The Norwegians have the standard ”low” cabin.

I knew it was one of the Scandyhooligan countries! All the same to me as haven't been there - yet. :ouch:

SWBKCB

16th Feb 2022, 15:49

Insert your own punchline... :ok:

NH Industries believes it can extend the service life of its NH90 helicopter out to 50 years with no modifications required to the airframe or dynamic components.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/nh-industries-plans-to-extend-life-of-nh90-helicopters-to-half-century/147569.article

Cyclic Hotline

16th Feb 2022, 16:37

Insert your own punchline... :ok:
[QUOTE]NH Industries believes it can extend the service life of its NH90 helicopter out to 50 years with no modifications required to the airframe or dynamic components.

I noticed that one earlier and thought that it perhaps lacked ambition and imagination. I really can't imagine any current scenario that these helicopters couldn't have a service life of 100 or even 1000 years as they never fly! ;) And talk about low MRO costs, a composite airframe, with the same components installed at manufacture should be able to last beyond mere decades, but into centuries.

EESDL

18th Feb 2022, 12:32

Effing funny if NHI bid for NMH contract - stranger things have happened………
for NHI read Leonardo and Airbus in the main - heaven help us!!

henra

18th Feb 2022, 15:26

Insert your own punchline... :ok:
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/nh-industries-plans-to-extend-life-of-nh90-helicopters-to-half-century/147569.article
No wonder if these things are sitting those 50 Years safely in the maintenance workshop waiting for spares. Clever strategy.

Cyclic Hotline

18th Feb 2022, 15:46

Plus, an additional feature that few may have considered, is how they will make a fine gate guard sometime in the future as the composite airframe will never deteriorate!

ericferret

19th Feb 2022, 08:46

By ”tall” you mean high cabin?

If so, the high cabin is the Swedish NH90. Only Sweden did get the high cabin.

The Norwegians have the standard ”low” cabin.

I'm surprised the Dutch didn't buy the high cabin version!!

chopper2004

22nd Feb 2022, 13:35

Sixth Spanish Air Force NH90 delivered

https://twitter.com/ejercitoaire/status/1494958474119294978?s=21

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1068/579c7ca8_5914_4f86_bdfb_4dea59fe4a91_b93f0b48cd44f39062bb4b8 dcad9eee9de172e7c.jpeg

[email protected]

22nd Feb 2022, 14:02

So that new Spanish one is going straight to the shed then?:)

Blackhawk9

23rd Feb 2022, 04:12

So that new Spanish one is going straight to the shed then?:)
should get a couple of hundred hrs out of it then most prob yes, sit in back of hangar, as each one comes flog it to death till they die and park them up.

Blackhawk9

17th Mar 2022, 02:31

Just heard the Australian MRH fleet is grounded again , MGB mount crack , this thing just goes from strength to strength :ugh:

Doors Off

17th Mar 2022, 06:30

Just heard the Australian MRH fleet is grounded again , MGB mount crack , this thing just goes from strength to strength :ugh:

Oh my, I just googled Blackhawk groundings, in order to see how it compares. I don’t think it will be the Panacea that is expected. Even the US Army Blackhawk fleet, as recently last year, is suffering poor spares, logistical support, maintenance support and very low flying rates and subsequent morale among it’s crews.

To read that there was only 11% of the Australian Blackhawk fleet serviceable in 1995 is sadly, sobering. (10 years after they entered service).

Stabilator issues on Mike models causing fatal accidents. Multiple engine failures.

here are some of the links. Sobering reading. Only 5 mins worth of googling.

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=CHAMBER;id=chamber/hansards/1995-05-09/0151;query=Id:%22chamber/hansards/1995-05-09/0032%22https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/S-7OA-9-Black-Hawk-Helicopter%3A-Internal-Panel-Lombardo-Knight/2f96128a9a1b57685d6564588987fb52f0d50cdf

https://verticalmag.com/news/black-hawk-crashes-prompt-questions-of-u-s-military-helicopter-safety/?amp

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/06/14/documents-reveal-new-details-about-sinai-peninsula-crash-killed-5-soldiers.html/amp

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/army-black-hawk-crashes/?amp

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-05-28-mn-3122-story.html?_amp=true

https://www.timesofisrael.com/air-force-grounds-fleet-of-black-hawk-helicopters-after-multiple-malfunctions/amp/

casper64

17th Mar 2022, 15:23

Oh my, I just googled Blackhawk groundings, in order to see how it compares. I don’t think it will be the Panacea that is expected. Even the US Army Blackhawk fleet, as recently last year, is suffering poor spares, logistical support, maintenance support and very low flying rates and subsequent morale among it’s crews.

To read that there was only 11% of the Australian Blackhawk fleet serviceable in 1995 is sadly, sobering. (10 years after they entered service).

Stabilator issues on Mike models causing fatal accidents. Multiple engine failures.

here are some of the links. Sobering reading. Only 5 mins worth of googling.

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=CHAMBER;id=chamber/hansards/1995-05-09/0151;query=Id:%22chamber/hansards/1995-05-09/0032%22https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/S-7OA-9-Black-Hawk-Helicopter%3A-Internal-Panel-Lombardo-Knight/2f96128a9a1b57685d6564588987fb52f0d50cdf

https://verticalmag.com/news/black-hawk-crashes-prompt-questions-of-u-s-military-helicopter-safety/?amp

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/06/14/documents-reveal-new-details-about-sinai-peninsula-crash-killed-5-soldiers.html/amp

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/army-black-hawk-crashes/?amp

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-05-28-mn-3122-story.html?_amp=true

https://www.timesofisrael.com/air-force-grounds-fleet-of-black-hawk-helicopters-after-multiple-malfunctions/amp/

Now try the same for the Apache…😉

Jack Carson

18th Mar 2022, 12:23

Doors Off

18th Mar 2022, 13:23

Lonewolf_50

18th Mar 2022, 13:50

Stabilator issues on Mike models causing fatal accidents.
Really?
Did someone change the procedures in the flight manual for that? I'll see if I can get ahold of John Dixson to explain some of the nuances there.
Multiple engine failures. There are procedures for that. T-700 reliability is impressive over its 40+ year life.

I'll take a look at the links, thanks.
Perhaps with the 1979 - 2022 maturity of the Blackhawk family, you would expect their issues would be less and have basically disappeared? Only if you don't understand helicopter aviation.
I hope that you are aware that pilots change, and that there is turnover? ;)
We have yet to perfect the Vulcan mind meld such that every thing I learned before I hung up my flight suit is absorbed by the next nugget to strap into a helicopter.
In other news, most of the A's have been converted to L's or have left US Army service, and most of the L's are undergoing mods to become the new V model (glass cockpit, like the M, as I understand it) and it looks like the Air Force got some HH-60W recently as the HH-60Gs, that have served long and well, slowly get put out to pasture.

Why I feel that the T-700 has gotten progressively better over the years.
About 30 years ago our Seahawks had some real troubles with uncommanded engine wind downs (usually roll backs, but on a few occasions the engines shut down) which curtailed some of our training until that rather complex set of problems were solved one at a time. (Aircraft to Engine interface was a root issue: Marconi, Sikorsky, and GE all took turns pointing fingers at each other). Two of the problems that I remember were floating grounds, bad diodes, and sometimes an HMU seal that would harden and fail (which IIRC was resolved at AIMD with a seal made by a different vendor, but I am really reaching here in terms of memory). Last time I talked to my Seahawk brethren (a bit before the SH-60B was sundowned in San Diego) I asked about that family of issues and it hadn't cropped up in years.
I still got some gnashing of teeth about main rotor dampers, viscous damper bearings, and HUMS from the operators

For Jack Carson: well howdy, glad to see that you are still among the quick! :ok:

As to the NH-90: I am sad to see it go from a neat idea (ah, the halcyon days of the 1990's) to 'having a few problems along the way' but if there are 500 of them up and flying, still, I'd say it's a successful model that, like any helicopter, has its quirks.

[email protected]

18th Mar 2022, 17:33

As to the NH-90: I am sad to see it go from a neat idea (ah, the halcyon days of the 1990's) to 'having a few problems along the way' but if there are 500 of them up and flying, still, I'd say it's a successful model that, like any helicopter, has its quirks. But it would seem very few of those 500 are actually available to fly at any one time and spend far more time in the hangar than in the air

chopper2004

19th Mar 2022, 08:21

Since 1979 more than 6000 variants of the UH-60/SH-60/MH-60 and S-70s have entered service around the world. Even Sweden procured H-60s after selecting the NH-90 under the NSHP program. By comparison NH Industries have delivered only 500 aircraft since 2007.

Just an observation here and I am not in anyway being biased, a couple of questions spring to mind:

1) NH90 is a little more complex then S-70/H-60 airframe as the latter started from early 70s design manufacture evolving into 21st century. Also was the marketing strategy aimed at en masse production for the NH90?

2) It’s not a comparison but an observation: the AW139 production after 18 years (just over 2 decades if you count concept / R&D) reached 1000 airframes in sept 2019 with the 1000th airframe handed over to the Italian Guardia di Finanze (GdF). I know because I was invited to the event at Verigiate. Thats a Civil helo (and some mil customers with AW139M)

Amd just looking at numbers realistically could we ever produce en masse something like 100000 UH-1 in todays modern Hugh tech world? I believe was record number of Hueys produced making it biggest number since WW2)? Small civilian airframes like Robinson R22/44/66 then yes.

3) Speaking of Hueys am led to believe that some issues with the German NH90 were the logistics and support framework which had not evolve fRom the UH-1D (which NH90 primarily replaced in Bundeswehr) . In short the mindset was still there. The Oz problem is similar …

cheers

Cyclic Hotline

23rd May 2022, 13:29

Low NH90 availability pinned on contract failings, but programme chief sees causes for optimismBy Dominic Perry (https://www.flightglobal.com/dominic-perry/263.bio) 23 May 2022
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/low-nh90-availability-pinned-on-contract-failings-but-programme-chief-sees-causes-for-optimism/148757.article

Availability rates as low as 25% on the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 were the result of too much focus on managing the acquisition and introduction of the helicopters and not enough on how to keep them flying, according to a senior Airbus Helicopters executive.

The 11t rotorcraft has come in for regular criticism from several customers due to inoperable aircraft, long wait times for spare parts or maintenance, and lengthy retrofit periods; Australia in particular has become so frustrated with the NH90’s problems that it seems almost certain to ditch its fleet in favour of the Sikorsky UH-60M Black Hawk.

https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fd3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net%2FPictu res%2F480xany%2F0%2F0%2F0%2F87000_mrh90ccommonwealthofaustra lia_564325.jpg&t=1653312094&ymreqid=b6e34708-8ebe-a4c1-2f2c-5a002d01b600&sig=ebOYqXEp9Z1q_pGvEzzjpw--~D

Source: Commonwealth of Australia

Royal Australian Navy has retired its five MRH90s

“In the past the focus was on contract management,” says Christoph Zammert, executive vice-president of customer support and services at the airframer, which is a partner in NHI alongside Leonardo Helicopters and Fokker.

“The contractual set ups were not always putting enough focus and priority on flight availability. We have now realised this and we are moving towards a more collaborative approach [with customers].”

In part, that is due to the maturity of the programme, enabling a move to the “sustainment phase”, whereas previously “it was very much focused on managing the acquisition and industrial delivery of the fleet to the customers”.

However, that shift in mindset at the industrial and customer level “could have been done earlier”, admits Zammert.

Across the whole fleet – which encompasses 14 operators flying a mix of the naval NFH and TTH troop transport variants – availability rates average 40%, he says, with the manufacturer aiming to reach at least 50% by 2023, a level that “should be possible”, he says.

Zammert reveals that the lowest recorded availability rate was 25%; this was at a customer two or three years ago and was “mainly driven by the introduction of a new type in a support environment that was used to other OEMs’ models and needed to manage the transition to the NH90 generation”.

Although the NH90’s availability is frequently compared with that of the stock Black Hawk, Zammert argues that its performance is better benchmarked against helicopters where extensive mission equipment “adds complexity and generates additional maintenance workload”.

“You would see similar availability figures comparing the NFH to the Romeo or the TTH to the M-model Black Hawk,” he asserts.

https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fd3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net%2FPictu res%2F480xany%2F0%2F0%2F1%2F87001_nh90tthgercbundeswehr_6975 10.jpg&t=1653312094&ymreqid=b6e34708-8ebe-a4c1-2f2c-5a002d01b600&sig=.15mr5XfVArrh5lOrTcCmw--~D

Source: Bundeswehr

Weekly meetings take place with key customers

Airbus Helicopters has also invested in centrally held spare parts “rather than wait for the customer to do so”, which “past experience shows is not the best way of doing things”.

In addition, NHI and its partner companies have been working more closely with individual customers to tackle specific issues, and to share best practice across the operator community, says Nathalie Tarnaud Laude, senior vice-president and head of the NH90 programme at Airbus Helicopters and president of NHI.

She argues that a “transformation plan” launched last year and featuring 22 separate initiatives, is having a tangible impact on fleet availability. That has included the extension of maintenance intervals for certain tasks, plus the establishment of local partnerships for repair and overhaul work, such as with Kongsberg in Norway.

That deal appears crucial to NHI’s overall recovery plan in the Nordic country: frustrated with the slow pace of deliveries and low aircraft availability, Oslo in February again threatened to walk away from the programme if there was no improvement.

“We consider that developing a relationship with partners in Norway is very important. Considering the situation with Norway at the moment, where aircraft are not flying enough, we believe such partnerships can really make a big step-change,” she says.

Oslo laid out its concerns in a letter to NHI and Tarnaud Laude says the issues raised have been answered “with very clear solutions – we now believe we have a plan to improve the situation for them”.

https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fd3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net%2FPictu res%2F480xany%2F0%2F0%2F4%2F87004_norway-nh90_74768.jpg&t=1653312094&ymreqid=b6e34708-8ebe-a4c1-2f2c-5a002d01b600&sig=7kqIKBJWn9t0z7uyAV_QFA--~D

Source: Norwegian defence ministry

Norway has threatened to walk away from the programme

Availability issues should ease further as the fleet grows: Norway’s final serial NH90 is due to be delivered shortly, followed by its final retrofitted helicopter by the end of 2023, she says.

The time taken to perform retrofits – a requirement due to early aircraft being delivered in an initial operating capability standard – has been another bone of contention with operators. That process is being accelerated, she says: there are 107 NH90s still awaiting retrofit and NHI has so far this year delivered five of the 20 upgraded units scheduled. That compares with 13 in 2021 and five in 2020, and illustrates “quite significant levels of ramp-up”, she says.

While mission systems are still awaited for “a couple” of helicopters awaiting retrofit, overall “we feel confident we can accelerate retrofit deliveries in 2022 as scheduled”, says Tarnaud Laude.

But even with the improvements being made they seem unlikely to be enough to rescue the situation in Australia, which in late 2021 said it would retire its MRH90s – the local designation for the NH90 – to be replaced by UH-60Ms.

Although no final decision will be made until the end of the year – and a change of government may alter the picture – Canberra seems set on divesting the NH90; indeed, it has already phased out five examples used by the Royal Australian Navy in favour of additional MH-60Rs.

Tarnaud Laude still holds out some hope that the NH90 can find a way back, but counsels that “we should not be naive” about its prospects. However, with the remaining 42 helicopters likely to continue in operation until 2026 or 2027, future support will remain necessary; both sides are discussing an extension to the current contract, she says.

https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fd3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net%2FPictu res%2F480xany%2F0%2F0%2F2%2F87002_tthctombuysse_shutterstock _760115.jpg&t=1653312094&ymreqid=b6e34708-8ebe-a4c1-2f2c-5a002d01b600&sig=B_iEnDqHZLbj.arDQ.Kcew--~D

Source: Tom Buysse/Shutterstock

Life extension of 11t helicopter is being contemplated

“It is very important for us that no matter what the decision is that we deliver on our commitments [so] that the customer can fly when they want.” NHI is has promised that 38 units will be available by mid-2022.

Meanwhile, development of the new Standard 2 configuration for the French special forces continues, with the critical design review milestone imminent: “Here we are on a very good track,” says Tarnaud Laude. Deliveries are due to begin in 2025.

In addition, a separate major system upgrade called SWR3 is currently being discussed with the NATO NAHEMA helicopter management agency and NH90 operators. This could require considerable downtime to perform the upgrade on each helicopter, Tarnaud Laude admits. She remains hopeful this can be reduced to 12 months, “but we are not there yet”.

Meanwhile, NHI is hopeful that it will receive a contract from NAHEMA in the coming weeks to conduct an analysis that will allow the lifetime of the NH90 to be extended to 50 years.

“This is something that was positively appreciated by the customers who want to continue to operate the aircraft of course beyond 2030 and until at least 2050,” she says.

But with the backlog dwindling, production is currently set to run out in about 2026. However, Tarnaud Laude thinks more NH90s can be sold.

“To be honest with you we totally believe we can accept other customers,” she says. “We have a good machine – we are convinced that it is one of the best machines in the category – we just need to convince them it can be operated with better availability.”

pitchlink1

24th May 2022, 07:26

About the upgrade program: "She remains hopeful this can be reduced to 12 months, “but we are not there yet”", says Tarnaud Laude. Not too impressive with a target of 12 months upgrade program for helicopters that for many has just come of the production line. And lifetime extended to 50 years "until at least 2050" is another big WOW. So aircraft delivered in 2022 will only have 28 years+ life until the program stops? And have to spend at least one year right of the bat in an upgrade program. An upgrade program that only brings new gizzmo to the aircraft and does nothing to improve on operational readiness. New gizzmos that need more repairs. And the final blow: "availability rates average 40%, he says, with the manufacturer aiming to reach at least 50% by 2023, a level that “should be possible”, Christoph Zammert says." Is 50% availability the stretch target? It should be 90+% shouldn't it. All aircraft typically follow the bath tub curve with high maintenance burden in the early life which then comes down during the mature phase and then skyrocket at the end of the product life. The NH90 is in the mature phase - it has been around close to 20 years. Toothing issues should have been resolved since long. And it took NHI only 20 years to figure out they should have spares on the shelve for their customers, contrary to the earlier assumption they will only manufacture parts to order. That philosophy would not fly well in the commercial world, and apparently not in the military world either. A production ramp up of more spares for storage will cause additional strain on supply chain, further drive cost, and further reduce availability while the stores are being filled up which will take years. This would only represent another revolution on the pain screw for the program. It seems they have a lot of fun at the Christmas parties at NH Industries coming up with new programs that includes a lot of fuzz words and promises but it seems customers now are rightfully fed up.

[email protected]

24th May 2022, 07:50

Sell the aircraft for a 'lowish' headline price to get the contract and then screw the customer with expensive parts and upgrades options when you have them over a barrel of poor availability.

Seems a common theme amongst manufacturers - not just in aviation - and never seems to engender customer loyalty, something that is supposed to be key to longevity of a company.

GenuineHoverBug

10th Jun 2022, 06:31

It was announced this morning that the Norwegian government has decided to return their 14 aircraft (13 delivered) and ask for their money back.

Cyclic Hotline

10th Jun 2022, 08:36

Norway to return NH Industries helicopters, seek repaymentReuter (https://www.reuters.com/authors/reuters/)s
1 minute read
OSLO, June 10 (Reuters) - Norway will return the NH90 military helicopters it ordered from France's NH Industries because they are either unreliable or were delivered late, the defence minister and the head of the military said on Friday.

The government said it would also seek repayment of 5 billion crowns ($523 million) plus interest other costs from NH Industries, which is owned by Airbus Helicopters (AIR.PA) (https://www.reuters.com/companies/AIR.PA), Italy's Leonardo (LDOF.MI) (https://www.reuters.com/companies/LDOF.MI) and Fokker Aerostructuresof the Netherlands.

NH Industries was not immediately available for comment.

No matter how many hours our technicians work, and how many parts we order, it will never make the NH90 capable of meeting the requirements of the Norwegian Armed Forces," Defence Minister Bjoern Arild Gram told a news conference.

The original contract for 14 helicopters was signed in 2001 but Norway has received only eight, the ministry said. "We have a helicopter that doesn't work the way it's supposed to," said General Eirik Kristoffersen, the head of Norway's armed forces.

($1 = 9.5572 Norwegian crowns)
Reporting by Gwladys Fouche; editing by Terje Solsvik and Jason Neely

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-return-its-military-helicopters-seek-repayment-nh-industries-2022-06-10/

Cyclic Hotline

10th Jun 2022, 11:17

A great article here from Vertical, with the official NH Industries response!
https://verticalmag.com/news/norway-cancels-nh90/Norway terminates NH90 contractBY GLENN SANDS | JUNE 10, 2022Estimated reading time 6 minutes, 7 seconds.

Norway has ended its NH90 helicopter contract, stating the contractor’s inability to find replacement components for critical systems on the helicopter. This included some components for the NH90’s anti-submarine warfare capability. Norway will now return all the helicopters and demand a full refund.

In a press release from Norway’s Ministry of Defence, Mr Bjørn Arild Gram stated: “Regrettably we have reached the conclusion that no matter how many hours our technicians work, and how many parts we order, it will never make the NH90 capable of meeting the requirements of the Norwegian Armed Forces. Based on a joint recommendation by the Armed Forces and associated departments and agencies, the Norwegian Government has therefore decided to end the introduction of the NH90 and has authorized the Norwegian Defence Material Agency to terminate the contract.”

Following the statement, the Norwegian Defence Material Agency informed the manufacturer of the NH90, NATO Helicopters Industries (NHI), that it was terminating the entire contract. The Agency will begin preparation to return the helicopters along with any spares and equipment received. Additionally, the Agency is requesting a refund from NHI, which will include an estimated five billion kroner it has paid under the contract, along with any interest and other expenses.

Director-General of the Norwegian Defence Material Agency, Gro Jære said: “We have made repeated attempts at resolving the problems related to the NH90 in cooperation with NHI, but after more than 20 years after the contract was signed, we still don’t have helicopters capable of performing the missions for which they were bought, and without NHI being able to present us with any real solutions.” (https://servedbyadbutler.com/redirect.spark?MID=178916&plid=1810728&setID=435521&channelID=0&CID=665416&banID=520696754&PID=0&textadID=0&tc=1&adSize=728x90&mt=1654859028259635&spr=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fverticalmag.com%2F&hc=fae69a3f4edb716120a35108fdaf04830852f3da&location=)https://i0.wp.com/assets.verticalmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/nh90-1-1024x683.jpg?resize=640%2C427&ssl=1Norway has announced the termination of its contract for the NH90. Photo Mats Grimsæth, Norwegian Armed ForcesNorway’s acquisition of the NH90 began in 2001, with 14 helicopters for the Coast Guard and anti-submarine warfare duties with the expectation that all would be in service by late 2008. Currently, prior to the termination, only eight have been delivered in full operational configuration. The fleet was expected to fly 3,900 flight hours per year, but recently this was averaging around 700 hours.

It was in February 2022 that the Norwegian Ministry of Defence asked the Armed Forces in cooperation with the Norwegian Defence Material Agency and the Norwegian Defence Research Establishment, to conduct a full review of Norway’s maritime helicopter capabilities. The review revealed that even with significant additional financial investments, it would not be able to bring the performance and availability of the NH90 to the level that would meet Norway’s operational requirements.
Norwegian Chief of Defence, General Eirik Kristoffersen said: “This is the right decision for the NH90 and our maritime helicopter capability, and in line with our recommendation.“I have been impressed by the efforts made by our organization and everyone who has worked so hard to make the NH90 deliver. This has not been a question of a lack of effort, creativity, and skill, but quite simply that we have received a helicopter that has not been able to deliver. Also, even though we are now moving on from the NH90, we still need the support of those who have been working on the helicopter. My priority now is therefore to take care of everyone who has worked on the NH90.”
Following the termination of the contract, Norwegian NH90 flight operations stopped, and any planned future missions have been cancelled.Next for the Norwegian Ministry of Defence is to begin the selection process again, for an alternative maritime helicopter. Bjørn Arild Gram stated: “Norway continues to have a requirement for maritime helicopters, and it is, therefore, essential that we quickly begin preparations to fill the capability gap left by the NH90. We will consider several alternative approaches to meeting our operational requirements.”

Following the announcement, a statement from NHIndustries said: “We are extremely disappointed by the decision taken by the Norwegian Ministry of Defence and refute the allegations being made against the NH90 as well as the Company. NHIdustries was not offered the possibility to discuss the latest proposal made to improve the availability of the NH90 in Norway and to address the specific Norwegian requirements.

“NHIdustries and its Partners have been absolutely committed to addressing the concerns expressed and have brought the appropriate and tailored solutions to the table to meet the specific and unique Norwegian requirements. With 13 helicopters delivered out of 14, and the last example ready for acceptance, we were close to finalizing the main scope of the initial contract. NHIdustries considers this termination to be groundless.”
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chopper2004

10th Jun 2022, 11:19

fdr

10th Jun 2022, 11:27

Photos of the NH-80 in flight from the OEM raised a question as to the AOA that the rotor was running at, which in turn impacts the hysteresis in CL, CM, CD on the blade and the subsequent SR of loads in the rotor head. Nothing that another few feet of blade span or increased Cl wouldn't sort out. The question became more interesting when looking at the location of erosion damage on the blades, it is quite unusual, and is a maintenance factor in keeping the blender happy. Fixable, sure, but there is little interest from the OEM or operators in fixing the machine. It is impractical to add half a dozen feet of the blade to the system, gets pretty noisy around the tail but only for a fraction of a second. Two choppers and a tilt-rotor cry out for some help the NH90, the PAH Tiger, and the V/MV-22. It's not rocket science, JC Lin worked the graphs 30+ years ago, but the operators remain with the mediocrity of a rotor system that defies rational explanation. Rotors dynamically pitch rapidly, that's just what they do, so all of the optimizations of worrying over an 0012 or an Onera OA-209 section or an SC-1094, VR-7, RC-04 etc is borderline vacuous, once the blade starts spinning, it has massive hysteresis which looks more like a P crossed with an italic D for CL and CM, and all of the worry that goes into getting the Cm just right, such as reflexed camber lines, well the Cm gets to look like an upside-down and mirror-reversed big L. both lift and drag are adversely affected, but al least it is only biggly, and the Cm messes with everything connected to the spinning stuff at the top. Getting rid of the Cm is in the words of the HH-3/SK61 TP: "spooky".

The rotor designs do benefit from tip sweep, BERP etc but the majority of the blade is just adding pain to the exercise, and that is needless.

:rolleyes:

Tango and Cash

10th Jun 2022, 15:34

Norway to return NH Industries helicopters, seek repayment

Return for a refund? I didn't know helicopter/defense procurements worked that way. I'll get my popcorn as the lawyers do their thing.

Self loading bear

10th Jun 2022, 16:25

If spare part delivery was such as problem, it might be a quicker and more secure option to recoup some money by parting out the 13 aircraft and selling to the highest bidder.

Cyclic Hotline

13th Jun 2022, 19:36

Obviously, lots of activity has been occurring in the NH90 word in the last week. Now the French Government is stepping in to attempt to resolve an issue that neither Airbus or Leonardo appear to be able to resolve - I'm not sure that's a very good outcome for two of the largest helicopter manufacturers who appear unable to sort this problem out themselves after decades of lost opportunity. Once again Airbus gets quietly bailed out by the French Government - remember the 160 orders?

Of equal or greater concern is the extremely serious issue of medium helicopter mobility for militaries that have had the misfortune to place their faith in this platform. With a war continuing in Europe, this platform is a primary asset for Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Spain and Sweden. This helicopter is currently compromising NATO security and capabilities across Europe and requires some serious remedial action, although some might doubt the outcome of this latest campaign before it even starts - you've had decades to resolve these issues, and nothing thus far has succeded. I'm sure that many might doubt the effectiveness of the latest solution to get rolled out. Spare parts shortages are only a part of the failings of this product.

https://verticalmag.com/news/french-military-order-set-to-help-nh90/New French military order set to resolve NH90 issueshttps://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/f502bc914956f518cd4f5698b5ba9ad5?s=30&d=mm&r=gBY GLENN SANDS | JUNE 13, 2022Estimated reading time 4 minutes, 28 seconds.

Following the cancellation by Norway of their entire NH90 contract, the French government announced on June 13, a new contract for the helicopter, to demonstrate its commitment to the program moving forward.

The French government said the new contract would focus on resolving the issue of a spares shortage for the helicopter, which in part was one of the reasons for Norway axing its program.
https://i0.wp.com/assets.verticalmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/nh90copy-1024x614.jpg?resize=640%2C384&ssl=1A new order announced by the French government demonstrates its faith in the NH90 helicopter’s future. Photo NHIndustriesA press release from the French Ministry of Armed Forces cited: Signing of the new operational support contract for the NH90 helicopter: improving the availability of the French and German fleets while strengthening cooperation with partner nations

The NAHEMA (NATO Helicopter Management Agency) signed on May 23 on behalf of France and Germany, with the NH Industries consortium (composed of Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo, and Fokker), the new operational support contract for the NH90, a performance-based service contract.

The NH90 has been a “combat-proven” helicopter for several years, which has already proven its high added value in external operations for the Army and the French Navy during deployments on combat ships for the fight against underwater.

However, the NH90 has also suffered from spare parts shortages in recent years, resulting in largely insufficient operational availability.

The objective of this new contract: is that the armies immediately have spare parts for maintenance and repairs. This is to meet the requirements of operational availability.

To sustainably increase the operational availability of the NH90 fleet, the first stage of work was carried out in 2020 by NAHEMA, the General Armament Directorate (DGA) and the Aeronautical Maintenance Directorate (DMAé) for the French armies, and the NH Industries consortium. The team of experts formed then extended the support contract initially designed around French needs, for operational support adapted to all partner nations using NH90 helicopters. In an extremely short but intensive period, the experts have thus transcribed all the complexity of the logistics into a long-term contract (three times five years) with a target of 50% availability from the start of 2023.

First, the supply of spare parts will now be the industry’s responsibility. This includes the material planning of manufacturing, storage based on needs and the respect of delivery times in the warehouses of the units of each of the armies concerned, as well as industrial repairs carried out at Airbus Helicopters. Industry experts will also be distributed among the units to facilitate technical exchanges and maintenance forecasts. Then, the duration of maintenance visits will evolve according to clear commitments to reduce the time devoted to this task. Finally, a performance incentive process has been established to encourage manufacturers to exceed availability targets. NH Industries, and Airbus Helicopters, in particular, are committed to achieving the fixed availability rate and flight hours targets, required, and guaranteed in this new NH90 operational support contract.

This contract is the first step towards more effective joint support, for the benefit of all the partner nations of the NHS90 program. France and Germany will be the first to apply it. Other nations have already expressed their intention to join them in the medium term, at the same time strengthening cooperation between all participants in the NH90 program.

Cyclic Hotline

18th Jul 2022, 11:10

Farnborough 2022: Swedish Air Force loses patience with NH90, considers going the ‘way of Norway

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/swedish-air-force-loses-patience-with-nh90-considers-going-the-way-of-norway/

18th July 2022 - 10:58 GMT | by Tim Martin (https://www.shephardmedia.com/author/tim-martin/) in Farnborough

Sweden is actively considering whether or not to prematurely end NH90 operations. (Photo: NHIndustries)
Will Sweden follow in the footsteps of Norway and prematurely end NH90 operations. https://www.shephardmedia.com/media/cache/images/images/article/NH90_ki4QPBT/8d5b6f3a2d6729c94d8d5828d8e910eb.jpg (https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/norway-terminates-nh90-helicopter-contract-seeks-full-compensation/)
Maj Gen Carl-Johan Edstrom, chief of the Swedish Air Force, has vented his frustration at under-fire manufacturer NHIndustries, claiming that the NH90 (https://plus.shephardmedia.com/detail/nh90-tth/?_ga=2.83051350.1101147383.1657814182-453100442.1615808774) partner is not ‘delivering what they should’ and revealing that consideration is being given to whether or not Sweden prematurely replaces the country’s fleet.Speaking at a 17 July press briefing in London, Edstrom said that Sweden’s supreme military commander Gen Micael Bydén will issue guidance on the country’s long-term helicopter modernisation strategy in November 2022.

Edstrom noted that a final phase of study is underway.

‘The big decision will be what we do with the NH90 and whether we continue to operate it or go the way of Norway (https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/norway-terminates-nh90-helicopter-contract-seeks-full-compensation/) and select another system,’ Edstrom said. ‘We are still a strong partner in the NH90 family and we have talked to countries [including Norway] that have made decisions about changing the system. The NH90 is not delivering what it should be at the moment.’

Sweden operates 18 NH90 helicopters with the designation Helikopter 14: nine built to the TTH configuration and nine for SAR/anti-submarine warfare missions.

While Edstrom did not talk of operational problems associated with the fleet, prior reports have often focused on aircraft deliveries being significantly delayed.

In the wake of Norway cancelling its NH90 contract, the renewed public criticism of the helicopter will cause concern for NHIndustries.

Besides what happens in the near future with Helicopter 14, Edstrom confirmed that ‘no decision had been taken yet’ regarding which 'basic' training helicopter succeeds the AW109 (Helikopter 15) ahead of the fleet being phased out from 2030 onwards.

He said that Sweden’s UH-60M Black Hawks (https://plus.shephardmedia.com/detail/s-70auh-60alm-black-hawk/?_gl=1*1asz3h2*_gcl_aw*R0NMLjE2MzYxMTE3OTkuQ2owS0NRandySk9NQ mhDWkFSSXNBR0VkNFZIRVEwcUo3c2F5UXVTX2VObi1PaDNUTFY0Q3FlMGh0W nhxR3hpbWQ3Rm5XM3hzOE5XVXBWc2FBdWJIRUFMd193Y0I.&_ga=2.244949763.74005083.1658050967-752133034.1614590272) are operating ‘really well’ and will benefit from ‘continuous upgrades’ to stay in service until 2040.

Sweden also intends to replace four of its C-130H transport aircraft with newer C-130J models (https://plus.shephardmedia.com/detail/c-130j-super-hercules/?_ga=2.70864464.1101147383.1657814182-453100442.1615808774) from 2028 and it aims to proceed with a Gripen C/D upgrade that will include integration of the RBS15 Mk4 (https://plus.shephardmedia.com/detail/rbs15-mk4/?_ga=2.250589056.74005083.1658050967-752133034.1614590272) anti-ship missile and a ‘new radar capability’, according to Edstrom.

Swedish Air Force plans call for an additional Gripen squadron (https://plus.shephardmedia.com/detail/gripen-jas-39ef/?_ga=2.82487894.1101147383.1657814182-453100442.1615808774) in 2030 and it aims thereafter to retain a full complement of 60 Gripen C/D and 60 E/F variants.

‘We will release new upgrades almost yearly for Gripen, mostly software upgrades and hardware upgrades every three to four years,’ added Edstrom. ‘The main reason for this is to remain operationally relevant as a fighting force but also ensure optimised management at industry level.’

Rigga

19th Jul 2022, 16:12

Hmmmm.......I wonder what the RAF's Puma replacement will be.....?

ericferret

19th Jul 2022, 16:58

Hmmmm.......I wonder what the RAF's Puma replacement will be.....?

"He said that Sweden’s UH-60M Black Hawks (https://plus.shephardmedia.com/detail/s-70auh-60alm-black-hawk/?_gl=1*1asz3h2*_gcl_aw*R0NMLjE2MzYxMTE3OTkuQ2owS0NRandySk9NQ mhDWkFSSXNBR0VkNFZIRVEwcUo3c2F5UXVTX2VObi1PaDNUTFY0Q3FlMGh0W nhxR3hpbWQ3Rm5XM3hzOE5XVXBWc2FBdWJIRUFMd193Y0I.&_ga=2.244949763.74005083.1658050967-752133034.1614590272) are operating ‘really well’ and will benefit from ‘continuous upgrades’ to stay in service until 2040."

Buy something proven and actually get something that works, on time, on budget and available now..

airsound

19th Jul 2022, 17:04

Buy something proven and actually get something that works, on time, on budget and available now.. You mean like the USAF did with the KC-46?

airsound

Lonewolf_50

20th Jul 2022, 13:43

You mean like the USAF did with the KC-46?

airsound What has that to do with helicopters?

Cyclic Hotline

20th Jul 2022, 14:47

What has that to do with helicopters?

Maybe he was thinking of the A400M from the same stable?

airsound

20th Jul 2022, 16:45

What has that to do with helicopters? Nothing specifically to do with helicopters. What it does have to do with are national attitudes to procurement, where lessons are being offered - and maybe even learned.

airsound

Lonewolf_50

20th Jul 2022, 17:14

Nothing specifically to do with helicopters. What it does have to do with are national attitudes to procurement, where lessons are being offered - and maybe even learned.

airsound You mean like how the UH-60 wasn't chosen by the Spanish (back in the 90's or late 80's) despite winning the fly off, after the French forwarded a few Basque separatists to Spain?
(Memory vague, believe extradition was involved)
Is that the kind of thing you are referring to?
(Granted, I got that second hand - there may be some more missing pieces to that story)
(This is not to be confused with the Seahawks which were in fact bought by the Spanish Navy)

airsound

20th Jul 2022, 17:48

No, I wasn't thinking of any of those things, Lonewolf! I was merely reacting to ericferret's startling idea to Buy something proven and actually get something that works, on time, on budget and available now..
The KC-46 immediately leapt to my mind as a prime example of a procurement where that didn't happen. I'm sorry you were so offended by that thought.

airsound

EESDL

21st Jul 2022, 17:05

No, I wasn't thinking of any of those things, Lonewolf! I was merely reacting to ericferret's startling idea to The KC-46 immediately leapt to my mind as a prime example of a procurement where that didn't happen. I'm sorry you were so offended by that thought.

airsound
Not sure what the fuss is about.
I understand that this is a 'rumour network' but the odd FACT would not go amiss.
There is only one option that can be delivered in the timeframe and at the quantities required and with the role configs already approved - and with EXACTLY the same engines as we are already using for AH64E. And it's not the 60-'M'.
It's a model with genuine UK content - as we all know, the airframe is the 'cheap' bit, it's the Bells & Whistles which cost.
A combat-proven design (>2-million hours) recently used for the Jolly Green 2 and to be supported to 2070.
A type where there are immediate avenues where UK air and groundcrews could go and get experience on type so no manning gap.
A type previously and currently flown by UK serving personnel.
A type that actually exists (>15-million hours) in required format - not 'imagined'

Bravo73

21st Jul 2022, 17:32

Not sure what the fuss is about.
I understand that this is a 'rumour network' but the odd FACT would not go amiss.
<snip><yawn>

You’re on the wrong thread. You need to bang your drum over on the Puma thread.

Out of interest, how much are you getting paid to repeat this stuff ad nauseum?

FloaterNorthWest

21st Jul 2022, 18:12

You’re on the wrong thread. You need to bang your drum over on the Puma thread.

Out of interest, how much are you getting paid to repeat this stuff as nauseum?

EEDSL,

Why don’t you tell everyone your connection to the AceHawk bid?

FNW.

EESDL

21st Jul 2022, 20:06

EEDSL,

Why don’t you tell everyone your connection to the AceHawk bid?

FNW.
correct thread as it’s the NH90 issues - and attitude - leaving Europe in such a perilous predicament for chopper support - which helps to motivate the folk at AceHawk

electrotor

26th Jul 2022, 20:17

Anyone know if the NH90 ever got the external liferaft pods they were supposed to have?
It certainly doesn't look like it from all the photos I can find and no references on the net.
Asking for a friend.

Cyclic Hotline

27th Jul 2022, 15:20

Not sure what the fuss is about.
I understand that this is a 'rumour network' but the odd FACT would not go amiss.
There is only one option that can be delivered in the timeframe and at the quantities required and with the role configs already approved - and with EXACTLY the same engines as we are already using for AH64E. And it's not the 60-'M'.
It's a model with genuine UK content - as we all know, the airframe is the 'cheap' bit, it's the Bells & Whistles which cost.
A combat-proven design (>2-million hours) recently used for the Jolly Green 2 and to be supported to 2070.
A type where there are immediate avenues where UK air and groundcrews could go and get experience on type so no manning gap.
A type previously and currently flown by UK serving personnel.
A type that actually exists (>15-million hours) in required format - not 'imagined'

I can see no way that a refurbished airframe will make it to the final selection phase for a UK replacement. This is not what the military, politicians, and general tax-paying public are looking for, and no politician in their right mind would push this as a solution. As a non-OEM, the prospect of supporting this platform is frightening, especially considering you can purchase a contemporary model UH-60 (not that I'm endorsing that solution) with full OEM support and complete FMS support. You need to consider the UK history with the Puma upgrade (disgraceful waste of money) or the Nimrod (even greater disgusting waste of money), or the disastrous UK'ized Chinook to understand that there is no appetite for this type of solution.

Cyclic Hotline

28th Jul 2022, 14:12

And now they need a new CEO at NH Industries. Talk about a poisoned chalice.

https://asianaviation.com/atr-appoints-nathalie-tarnaud-laude-as-chief-executive-officer/

fdr

28th Jul 2022, 23:44

And now they need a new CEO at NH Industries. Talk about a poisoned chalice.

https://asianaviation.com/atr-appoints-nathalie-tarnaud-laude-as-chief-executive-officer/

That may be about time for this program. The NH90 on paper had all the right bells and whistles and seems to have still failed to meet expectations in the field. A 40% availability for the system seems to suggest that spares and MPD expectations missed the mark. How that remains a problem for a product that is in production is surprising, a sure way to minimize the market is to neglect the current customers' spares needs while chasing new customers.

As it stands, they are a great advertisement for Sikorsky products.

Lonewolf_50

29th Jul 2022, 19:17

EESDL

1st Aug 2022, 12:26

as we have seen with the wider NH90 fiasco - they are well-versed in sloping shoulders and excuses

Jack Carson

1st Aug 2022, 14:13

Doors Off

9th Aug 2022, 21:39

Rumour is that Australia will not be replacing the MRH-90 with UH-60M. Budgetary issues and low on the priority order. MRH to stay.

Blackhawk9

27th Aug 2022, 07:08

fdr

27th Aug 2022, 23:44

Approval granted yesterday by US to acquire 40 UH-60M for Australian Army , US will fast track delivery with US slots if the order goes thru, the ADF want them but the new Labor govt are not known for defence spending and as Doors Off said the Labor govt may try and sidetrack the replacement. They are locked into the AH-64 and Self Propelled Howitzer buy but may squirm out of Black Hawk buy.

How did the ADF end up making decisions to end up with the NH-90 in the first place? Were the program risks from the gap from expectations to reality reasonably weighted?
Heavier lift capability than the -60 is a reasonable capability to have, the CH-47s needed some replacement program but for the ADF they are a niche capability, that needed high levels of confidence in meeting requirements.

Same question re the PAH Tiger. Of all the choices that existed out there with potential for better program outcomes, how on earth did the ADF end up with a kitten vs a Tiger?

megan

28th Aug 2022, 00:06

How did the ADF end up making decisions to end up with the NH-90 in the first place?I suspect the local work offset in construction was the deciding factor, four being manufactured in Europe, and 42 being manufactured locally by Australian Aerospace (an Airbus Helicopters subsidiary) in Brisbane. I think "manufactured" in the article I got the detail from may be loosely used.

Ascend Charlie

28th Aug 2022, 02:27

The politicians' decisions on where to put the manufacturing ("Where do we need the votes?") over-rides any preferences the ADF has on type and off-the-shelfness.

Mee3

28th Aug 2022, 03:01

Twenty years ago the Nordic countries (NSHP) made their decisions to procure European aircraft. Sikorsky and Boeing legacy aircraft the Blackhawk, Seahawk and Chinook were all rejected as old technology solutions. The S-92, a finalist in the competition, was also rejected across the board. Now, as back then, those legacy aircraft are rising to fulfill the needs as proven supportable and very capable machines.
Don't get butt hurt. NH90 is still one of the most cutting edge type in its class today after 10 years. The only handful of S92, the only mil variant is not even flying with the only one customer. The problem are the sub types (not variants!) and bizarre work share. Same goes to S92's only example.

Jack Carson

28th Aug 2022, 12:11

My point was not that the S-92 wasn’t selected but that the legacy machines were not even considered. I agree that military variants of a commercial S-92 may not have ever measured up. One only has to look at the long and troubled Canadian Cormorant development as an example.

fdr

28th Aug 2022, 12:21

I suspect the local work offset in construction was the deciding factor, four being manufactured in Europe, and 42 being manufactured locally by Australian Aerospace (an Airbus Helicopters subsidiary) in Brisbane. I think "manufactured" in the article I got the detail from may be loosely used.

Aussie Aerospace, yup. An EADS program, How did they go fixing the problems of the NHI product? Did that affect their bottom line?

I concur that the potential for the NH-90 was interesting. Another 4' of rotor diameter would have cured some ills. Not having parts in a new program for current operators is a bad look.

As a project, it was less frustrating than the LAMPS debacle, NZL and the USN still thank all concerned for their generosity on that score.

henra

29th Aug 2022, 11:01

One only has to look at the long and troubled Canadian Cormorant development as an example.
The CH-148 (S-92 Mil) and the NH90 somewhat share the same pains: Too much tech for too little gain. It looked interesting on paper but reality caught up on them. A bit similar like the full carbon wonder airliners (A350 +787). The more the manufacturers learned, the heavier they got. At the end both were fighting to keep the promises that were based on the hopes of weight and performance gains by composite miracles that didn't fully materialise. Same witrh NH-90 and S-92. The promises of tech led the manufacturers to offer endless variants and features which differentiated them from Legacy Aircraft (Mechanically, Rotorcraft are mostly end- developed -there is no more miracle left to uncover -cue the ACRB on Chinook Block II). The complexity finally overwhelmed the manufacturers.

Cyclic Hotline

1st Nov 2022, 18:25

https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2022/11/01/sweden-plans-to-axe-nh90-fleet/

Sweden Plans to Axe NH90 FleetNovember 1, 2022 (https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2022/11/01/sweden-plans-to-axe-nh90-fleet/) - by Daniel Darling (https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/author/dan/)Under new defense spending and equipment plans laid out by Sweden’s defense chief, General Micael Byden, Sweden plans to follow the lead of neighboring Norway and retire its existing fleet of NH90 helicopters (https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/sweden-to-axe-nh90-fleet-under-revised-defence-equipment-plan/150778.article). The proposal – which would see the NH90s replaced by Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks and a yet-to-be-determined-type – was revealed on November 1.

The Swedish fleet is currently used in multiple missions, including transport, search-and-rescue (SAR) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW).

The Swedish military also operates a fleet of 15 UH-60M Black Hawk utility helicopters that were acquired through the U.S. government-to-government foreign military sales (FMS) channel in 2010to help address a shortfall in medevac and combat SAR rotor-lift capabilities in the Afghan theater.

The acquisition of the UH-60Ms emerged as an urgent requirement due to delays in Sweden’s NH90 deliveries, which fell years behind schedule.

Ordered in September 2001, the Swedish NH90 complement of 18 units was supposed to be delivered and reach full operational capability (FOC) standard by 2008. Instead, the procurement was beset with delays, and the Swedish Air Force only received its first complement of NH90s in initial operational capability (IOC) configuration (four basic configuration models) in April 2011.

The final Swedish NH90 – referred to as HKP 14 in Swedish service – was handed over to Sweden’s defense procurement arm, the FMV, at the production facility in Marignane, France, in July 2019.

After undertaking a review of its NH90 fleet earlier this year, Swedish officials noted the need to update the ASW capabilities on the naval variant (HKP 14F) while voicing concern over the availability of the ground-based transport types (the HKP 14E variant). By this time Swedish frustration with the platform had already mounted (https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/nh90-helicopter-not-delivering-sweden/).

Byden’s proposal will see the NH90 fleet begin being withdrawn in 2024 with the entire fleet retired by 2030.

During the same 2024-2030 period a parallel acquisition for a new maritime platform will run, while additional UH-60 Black Hawks are also procured. Any delays encountered in delivery of replacements will result in more gradual NH90 withdrawals, but the entire fleet is to be retired by 2035 at the latest under the new plans.

The proposal has yet to be approved by the Swedish government but will likely move ahead.

Meanwhile, the NH90 continues to suffer blows on the global market.

The Australian government announced on December 10, 2021, that the Australian Army will be prematurely retiring its fleet of NH90s (referred to in Australian service as the MRH90 Taipan) and replacing them with up to 40 UH-60M Black Hawks.

Norway then announced the termination of its contract with NH Industries on June 10, 2022 and plans to return the 13 NH90 helicopters it has so far received in return for a full refund of the NOK5 billion ($500 million) invested in their acquisition.

Sweden’s dissatisfaction with the platform (https://corporalfrisk.com/2021/12/29/enter-seahawk-exit-whitefox/) is just the latest chapter in the NH90 story.

For its part, NH Industries – the three-way consortium involving Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo and GKN/Fokker – maintains that the low levels of availability to the Swedish fleet in recent years are due to a combination of customized Swedish requirements and a retrofit and upgrade program begun in 2017 that is expected to wrap up next year.

Meanwhile, the NH90 continues to suffer blows on the global market.

The Australian government announced on December 10, 2021, that the Australian Army will be prematurely retiring its fleet of NH90s (referred to in Australian service as the MRH90 Taipan) and replacing them with up to 40 UH-60M Black Hawks.

Norway then announced the termination of its contract with NH Industries on June 10, 2022 and plans to return the 13 NH90 helicopters it has so far received in return for a full refund of the NOK5 billion ($500 million) invested in their acquisition.

Sweden’s dissatisfaction with the platform (https://corporalfrisk.com/2021/12/29/enter-seahawk-exit-whitefox/) is just the latest chapter in the NH90 story.

For its part, NH Industries – the three-way consortium involving Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo and GKN/Fokker – maintains that the low levels of availability to the Swedish fleet in recent years are due to a combination of customized Swedish requirements and a retrofit and upgrade program begun in 2017 that is expected to wrap up next year.

Cyclic Hotline

5th Nov 2022, 00:04

Norwegian NH90 cancellation and refund demand ‘legally groundless', says manufacturerby Gareth Jennings Nov 4, 2022, 14:05 PM
Norway's decision to cancel its NH90 helicopter contract earlier in 2022 and to demand a refund has been described by NHIndustries (NHI) as “legally groundless”.
https://www-janes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/www.janes.com/images/default-source/news-images/bsp_47342-jdw-19656.jpg?sfvrsn=9f059e5f_2
NHI has reiterated its earlier position that it would not accept Norwayʼs decision to axe its NH90 programme and demand a refund, with the consortium saying the countryʼs position on the matter is “legally groundless”. (Royal Norwegian Air Force)Norway's decision to cancel its NH90 helicopter contract earlier in 2022 and to demand a refund has been described by NHIndustries (NHI) as “legally groundless”.

The assertion came in a 3 November earnings statement released by NHI stakeholder Leonardo about five months after Norway said that the type was unable to fulfil the requirements of the armed forces. Norway had said that it would seek a full refund of the approximately NOK5 billion (USD474 million) it has paid for its NH90 NATO Frigate Helicopters (NFHs), plus interest and other expenses.

“In June, the Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency (NDMA) formalised a request for termination for default under the contract – governed by the Norwegian laws – for the supply of 14 NH90 helicopters, which had been entered into in 2001 , with NHI, a company incorporated under French law, the shareholdings of which are held by Leonardo, Airbus Helicopters, and Fokker Aerostructure, due to alleged delays and alleged product non-conformities.

“The contract has been subject to extensions and amendments over the years and was expected to be completed by the end of 2023. NDMAʼs request is to return the 13 helicopters that have already been delivered and accepted and claim repayment of the disbursed amounts, including interest. NHI considers this request for termination for default legally groundless and reasonably challengeable in any appropriate forum due to lack of factual and legal basis, misinterpretation of the contract and the Norwegian law, as well as breach of confidentiality obligations,” the consortium said.

industry insider

5th Nov 2022, 08:39

Megan wrote

I suspect the local work offset in construction was the deciding factor, four being manufactured in Europe, and 42 being manufactured locally by Australian Aerospace (an Airbus Helicopters subsidiary) in Brisbane. I think "manufactured" in the article I got the detail from may be loosely used.

And yet for the MH60-R program, in spite of the offer of generous offset programs, the Government of the day turned them down.

ericferret

5th Nov 2022, 12:31

Rotorbee

5th Nov 2022, 14:06

So, why are the Kiwis pretty happy with their NH90's. They have the ship with the highest hours. They must do something right. What is it?

Blackhawk9

6th Nov 2022, 09:41

So, why are the Kiwis pretty happy with their NH90's. They have the ship with the highest hours. They must do something right. What is it?
And yet they aren't that happy with them, over operating budget, lower serviceability than expected, if this is the high time operator you can see how bad everyone else is with them.

ginty79

7th Nov 2022, 07:32

And yet they aren't that happy with them, over operating budget, lower serviceability than expected, if this is the high time operator you can see how bad everyone else is with them.

Serviceability is 70% for us fella - not too bad. Yes they are expensive, and yes it is a concern that other operators are giving up on them. In saying that if you can't look after your things, you shouldn't get expensive toys..

Cyclic Hotline

15th Nov 2022, 11:52

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/why-new-nh-industries-chief-is-upbeat-despite-swedish-setback/150978.articleWhy new NH Industries chief is upbeat, despite Swedish setbackhttps://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/50x50/P/Pictures/web/j/w/i/fgteamportraits001_481180.jpg (https://www.flightglobal.com/dominic-perry/263.bio)By Dominic Perry (https://www.flightglobal.com/dominic-perry/263.bio)15 November 2022
The new president of NH Industries (NHI) believes three nations seeking to ditch their fleets of NH90 helicopters are abandoning the programme at the worst possible moment, arguing that long-sought availability improvements are just around the corner.

Axel Aloccio took over as the head of NHI in mid-September and, as has been the case throughout the manufacturer’s recent history, was immediately forced to deal with a crisis of sorts when Sweden announced on 1 November that it was proposing to replace its 18-strong NH90 fleet.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/4/8/7/90487_swedennh90againcnhindustries_950812.jpg

Source: NH Industries

Sweden announced on 1 November proposals that would see it phase out NH90 fleet

Stockholm joins Australia and Norway, which have revealed similar decisions over the last 12 months, in seeking to exit the military helicopter programme. Should all three proceed, that will represent a combined 79 NH90s removed from the active inventory – or around 15% of the total.

While each nation has specific complaints, the common thread linking their decisions is a continued dissatisfaction with availability rates.

But Aloccio, speaking exclusively to FlightGlobal, says improvements to that metric are within reach. “We feel that the timing is a bit unfortunate because we feel they have done most of the hard work.”

He points out that a customer does not acquire a platform and make the associated significant investment in training and support “just for 10 or 15 years – you do it for 50 years”.

The service-entry phase for a new aircraft – “the difficult part” – can take that long to work through, Aloccio adds. “So, they have done most of the hard work – and just when the system starts working they are about to, or at least they are considering, phasing out the NH90.”

Aloccio compares the situation to a mountain stage in the Tour de France cycle race where “there’s a big climb and it’s hard” but once you reach the summit “you know the most difficult part is done and then it starts to be flat or even downhill.

“But this is where they decide to get off the bike and give up.”

In recent months, availability rates in Australia and Sweden, at least for the latter’s nine anti-submarine warfare-roled examples, have been well above the global average, he adds.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/4/8/4/90484_mrh90ccommonwealthofaustralia_470060.jpg

Source: Commonwealth of Australia

Australia has seen recent improvement in availability rates

Aloccio also argues that “dropping the NH90 now” would not be the most cost-effective solution for the countries or their taxpayers given that billions of dollars will be required to bring alternative helicopters into service.

Instead, if “they invested even a very small fraction of that into further enhancing the NH90 support system”, additional pilots or technicians could be trained, or more spare parts procured, he says.

“We are offering them many things for a very small fraction of what they would invest in procuring new helicopters.”

But whatever direction those nations eventually choose – and Australia and Norway appear particularly intractable – Aloccio says NHI will “respect their decision” and will “support them until the end”.

Under Aloccio’s predecessor Nathalie Tarnaud Laude, NHI and its partner companies – Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo Helicopters and GKN/Fokker – launched a transformation plan called New Horizon, designed to deal with a range of issues that were hindering up-time improvements.

Speaking to FlightGlobal in December 2021, she promised that system-wide changes, such as better spare part availability and localisation of overhaul services, would drive average global fleet availability to 50-60% by the end of 2022.

However, Aloccio admits NHI has failed to reach that target, with average global fleet availability sitting at “a little bit above 40%”. Of course, an average figure disguises the extremes: at one end, some operators are hovering around 90%, while others are “achieving much less”.

The inability to achieve the promised increase is down to numerous factors. Some – the ongoing supply chain crunch, the war in Ukraine – are outside of NHI’s control, but Aloccio admits there has been a longer than hoped for period of “latency” – the time taken for any changes made to have an effect on averages taken over a six- or 12-month period.

Despite this, he is confident that progress will become apparent “over the next 12 to 18 months”, when “we will definitely see an improvement in the KPI, that’s for sure”.

The length of time it is taking to retrofit early-build aircraft to the latest standard – another source of complaint for operators – has also only improved slightly, from 24 months in late 2021, down to a minimum of 18 months at present.

Of course, other customers dissatisfied with these aspects of the NH90’s or NHI’s performance, emboldened by recent announcements, may feel that a year-and-a-half is too long to wait to see any improvement. Does Aloccio think that others will follow suit and exit the progamme? “I have no reason to believe that they will,” he says.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/4/8/6/90486_norwaynh90cnhindustries_547252.jpg

Source: NH Industries

Norway had 14 maritime NH90s on order

“But we are working very closely with all the other nations to tell them what we are doing. We also keep them informed of the status of our discussions with Australia, Sweden and Norway.”

NHI is sharing “in full transparency”, all the changes it is implementing to the supply chain and support system, as well as longer-term enhancements to the helicopter itself.

Although you can divide NHI’s strategy into short- and long-term actions, Aloccio argues that even those designed to drive up availability today will have a lasting impact on the programme.

“We are convinced that in the long run we will have an extremely robust support system that will work, and that will more importantly be able to cater to the needs of all the nations in terms of achieving their flight-hour targets.”

As an example, he points out that maintenance inspections have been extended from 600 to 900 flight hours – a 50% increase – and the time before overhaul for dynamic components has been extended from 1,200h to 1,800h. Crucially the new figure is a multiple of 900, so the maintenance inspection and overhaul activity can be synchronised.

Additionally, Aloccio sees a performance-based support contract, launched by France and Germany during the summer, as a blueprint for future sustainment activities: “The same discussion now is also being extended to other NH90 nations which have shown some interest in such contracts.”

Aloccio declines to say precisely which customers are interested but notes that they are all members of NAHEMA, which, besides the two nations above, also includes Belgium, Italy and the Netherlands.

These long-term actions are key, he argues, as based on the current backlog and the likelihood of further orders taking production out to 2030, plus a life-extension, the NH90 will probably be in operation until 2070 or 2080.

To achieve that seemingly distant goal, NHI is carrying out a study of the composite fuselage to ensure it will last for 50 years, two decades beyond the previous limit. Aloccio hesitates to prejudge the results of that research, which are due in early 2023, but says: “We already know the study should be positive.”

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/4/8/3/90483_nh90qatar2022qnfh045pics_652257.jpg

Source: Leonardo Helicopters

Qatar is latest export customer for the NH90

That should provide operators with a “long-term perspective”, allowing them to consider other future upgrades of mission equipment or weapons. “But the foundation is to really have the core vehicle last 50 years – and this should be confirmed early next year.”

There are around 110 NH90s still to be delivered, including examples to core nations France, Germany, Italy and Spain, plus to Qatar, the latest export customer; by year-end, NHI will have delivered the 500th helicopter. Aloccio remains confident that top-up orders from existing operators alongside those from nations new to the programme can still be secured.

“The NH90 story didn’t start and will not end with Australia and Sweden, and we will continue to support these five, six hundred, maybe seven hundred aircraft in the long run,” he says.

“And we are investing together with all the partner companies of NHI… into making sure that we will have a support system that is able to respond to the needs of those aircraft.”

The content of a potential mid-life upgrade is also being discussed with operators, although Aloccio stresses there is “no rush” to decide on its content as it will not be implemented until the mid-2030s – around 30 years since the first NH90 was delivered.

He is also anxious to clear up what he feels is a misconception about – or at least mischaracterisation of – the NH90: “On social media you often see people saying the NH90 is a peacetime helicopter, not one for wartime and this is something that annoys me,” he says.

He points to deployments in “high-intensity conflicts” in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Mali, and to anti-piracy and anti-smuggling missions off the Somali coast and in the Caribbean, where, despite harsh operating environments and logistical challenges, “each time the helicopter has performed extremely well in terms of mission capability and maintenance.

“When deployed the NH90 has always had between 70-80% availability – even when it’s been in theatre without the support of industry,” he says.

“The NH90 is not just for disaster relief or training – it’s a military helicopter for wartime. We know this is what our customers expect. We want to support them deploying the NH90 in theatres of operations everywhere.”