Hi Vis Jackets that is the question !!!

[Mu Meter Man]

Okay due to being sick to death of hearing about the reasons for and against Hi Vis Jackets on another thread here is one were all you folk can discuss it til your hearts content !!!

[bfisk]

What the... ??? :ouch:

If you don't like hearing about it (or reading, rather...), then... don't. Really, it's that easy.

I for one do not have a problem with high vis gear. I don't want to end up as FOD, or being run over.

[john_tullamarine]

In our operation

(a) flight line folk wear hi viz kit - pilots and maintainers alike

(b) if one ventures out without the kit, be prepared for a bollocking from whomever

(c) culture is such that, on the odd occasion when I have so ventured (and I'm the boss-man) I get said bollocking from whomever.

Healthy culture, I suggest.

The aim is not to die or end up in court.

[Piltdown Man]

Hi-Viz jackets work. Ever since I have worn one I have never been attacked by a snake, bitten by a crocodile, caught fire, run over by my own aircraft nor been poisoned. But I have been rained on many times and what's really poor, loads of people (I have truly lost count) have tried to run me over because "They didn't see me". I've also lost count of the times I've been caught without wearing a jacket - so how did the goons see me?

However, here's the rub. No jacket, reduced compo so you could say I wear the jacket for my kids!

PM

[Roddenty]

Its a bit like flashing amber lights. One flashing light on the airfield makes you conspicuous, 160 flashing lights on every vehicle just blinds you (or promotes epilepsy).

[Airbus_a321]

HiVis:yuk:
..it will not save one single life...
...but its obviously a outrageous opportunity for some airports to make some extra money (e.g. from flight crews).

Aviation is turning crazy !!!!

[ei-flyer]

In the UK it is legal to ride a superbike in your shorts, a t-shirt and a crash helmet.

But God forbid should you try to walk across a deserted apron without a high vis!

[turbocharged]

You all seem to have forgotten the Crossair Captain struck and killed by a vehicle at Manchester while doing his walkround check in the dark. I think that was the trigger for Hi Viz on the apron.

However, I was having my car fixed on the hard shoulder by the RAC a few years back. The guy put on his Hi Viz. He told me that if he is wearing the Hi Viz and gets killed while doing his job his family gets an additional insurance payment. The jacket will not save his life. It might reduce the risk. But he wears it because it is his family's interest for him to wear it.

Now look at aviation. I was doing jump seat flights a few years back. I boarded with the pax and did a few sectors. When we finished I was on board with the crew, pax all gone. How do I now get back to the terminal with no Hi Viz. We could radio for someone to bring a jacket out or the crew could form a cordon around me and we could pray that we don't get seen. Small regional airport. Only room for 4 aircraft. We went for Plan A. No aircraft movements, no ramp activity, 3pm on a sunny day but the Captain wasn't prepared to risk it. This is the wrong approach to developing a 'safety culture' - The RAC used the carrot method, we use the stick.

[wap101]

Pilots in the jump seat should have a high viz jacket with them at all times same as operating crew.

If yours had been lost then why not use plan C. Two persons go to terminal and then one comes back to aircraft with spare hi-viz. You then have a hi-viz to go to terminal. Problem solved.

WAP

[Piltdown Man]

You all seem to have forgotten the Croassair Captain struck and killed by a vehicle at Manchester while doing his walkround check in the dark.

With respect, this poor guy was run over by three guys messing about in a baggage tractor. One was steering, one doing brakes and the other on the go-pedal. He was sandwiched between the tractor and the aircraft's hold and died from blood clotting complications after his legs were operated on. Manchester, showing they had "a proactive approach to safety," started to get heavy with those not wearing Hi-Viz jackets. Nothing quite like a smokescreen to hide the real problems at an airport - too many morons!

Remember, if you make rules for fools, all you end up with are fools.

PM

[turbocharged]

PM, bow to your superior knowledge of the case. I was really just trying to highlight 2 different approaches to risk management and developing attitudes to safety.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

PM

I was always lead to believe it was between the baggage truck and the pushback tug door, is that not the case. Any idea what happened to the 3 bods that were in the vehicle ?

Are Hi-vis jackets not in the european health and safety 6 pack. May be wrong, but i thing it mentions not only should they be warn, but warn fastened at all times !!!!

[chris-h]

I forgot to put mine on once on the GA apron at Liverpool and was stopped by a police officer and sent straight back in to get one.
It kinda helps me remember, He may of saved my life tho.

[A and C]

I could except the "hi vis" if the regulations said it should be used at night or in low vis............... but No! the blanket enforcement of "hi vis" use tells me that they are for the protection of the insurance company's and inforced by those who cant get a real job.

[turbocharged]

I worked with a police helicopter unit once. The Chief Pilot had specifies that all crew wear flying overall with hi viz strips on the arms and legs. He told me that whenever another unit came in to act as cover he could tell something about the 'culture' by their manner of dress. As soon as the blades stopped turning out came the leather flying jackets and baseball caps. People reckoned that they looked like 'firemen'. But he reckoned that it was better that his crews were visible than that they were fashionable.

The manner of enforcement on hi viz may leave a lot to be desired but an individual's response to having to wear hi viz jackets is an indicator of their attitude to the concept of safety.

[TurningFinals]

Another pro for the use of hi viz vests is that it helps identify you to pax.

[ground_star]

This may sound sad but even when I'm travelling as pax I always carry a hi-viz & wear it when I'm walking from the apron to the terminal (as is invariably the case with the lo-co carriers) - odd looks maybe, but that better than the crowd you'd get round you on the floor in a pool of your own blood!

I've spent far too much of my life airside dodging juvaniles in baggage trucks & tugs who drive around with their heads up their rear ends - figure if I can be seen slightly better they at least have time to realise they're going to hit me!!

Although, there is an "in" joke in the company which goes something along the lines of "if you're wearing hi-viz you're fair game...." !!

[The Heff]

I can see an argument for High-Viz jackets on a regional airport; but not in GA.

For me, airside safety is about staying alert and giving way to the aeroplane, because you have more ability to manoevre on your two feet then lets say a taildragger crabbing down the taxiway. On that basis, I wouldn't consider it a worthwhile investment to buy a jacket.

However, the CFI at my local club obviously disagrees with me, and mandates the wearing of high-viz jackets airside. But at least he does loan them for use without charge, so I can't really complain.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I don't rate hi vis jackets at all, at least not in an airport environment. The brain processes mainly shape rather than colour, and the torso / shoulders is one of the primary cues we use for spotting one another.

Now, if you are lost at sea or standing by a road at night then obviously it'll help, as the viewer sees a bright object against a dark background. But your typical airport pan is bathed in bright orange light, and covered in things that are either white or already painted dayglo.

All a dayglow jacket does is break up the distinctive "human" shape and just provides the viewer with one more bright object to be lost among all the others in their field of view.

So, whether a hi vis jacket *actually* helps you be more visible is highly situational.

[Pull what]

Reading the above posts just serves to remind us that the less aviation needs any involvement with human beings the safer it will be!

Remember all the cretins that said seat belts would be dangerous in cars!

[A37575]

At my local shopping mall every workman and his dog plus old age pensioners now all wear their hi-viz jackets/ shorts/jumpers/ and even walking shoes with hi viz stripes down the side. Mostly all carry water bottles of coffee cups too. Crazy man...

[Pugilistic Animus]

I think this example from the electrical workers applies remarkably well to aviation professionals wrt safety culture,..:)

YouTube - Arc Flash Incident Palo Verde Arizonia 2008 (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8hO1s_SFHe0%2 6feature%3Drelated&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fjet-blast%2F407373-elekrickery-question-post5608644.html%23post5608644)

[Piltdown Man]

Hi-Viz vests are now being worn by shoplifters, muggers, car-jackers, armed gangs and so forth. Why? Because it allows them to blend into the background.

PM

[Langball]

My brother recounted a funny story to me once (he files for a well known LC outfit). They wear hi-viz if they are operating crew, but they can be positioning as passenger in full uniform with no requirement for hi viz.

On of their captains alighted from the steps without high-viz, and within milliseconds a security vehicle appeared from over the horizon and made a bee line for him. The security guy jumps out and declares " Captain, may I ask if you are passenger or crew". The pilot looks at him sheepishly and replies "what's the right answer".

[AKAFresh]

I see the reasoning behind hi viz jackets but I think its gone way over the top with policing and enforcement. However,

Can someone who works for Ryanair please enlighten me why their crews seem to wear their Hi Viz inside the terminal buildings and also I kid you not only the other day I saw a female cabin crew member getting off a bus in town and walking down the street with her hi viz on!!! :ugh:


Aka

[Mr_G_Box]

Turbocharged...Coming from one of the police units that used to supply cover to the unit that you are probably talking about. I find verging on offensive that you even repeat such pompous twaddle...do you actually think it's reasonable to assume that it is possible to tell something about the safety culture of a flying operation by the fact the crew put on their coats on when they land?

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Just put the bloody thing on for the 5 minutes you spend on an apron. It isn't an inconvenience at all, and if it does annoy you, then you're easily annoyed and in need of some acupuncture!

I don't see why people make such a fuss about high-vis jackets. What is wrong with putting it on for 5 minutes, so you can do your walk around on the apron? Where is the problem in that? Do you think it "cramps" your style? You are paid to fly and do so safely. If 'looking good' is your priority then god help us.

[turbocharged]

Mr G Box.

Don't shoot the messenger

[DX Wombat]

For those who might like to wind up management who want people to wear hi-vis but who also wish to comply with the requirement, may I suggest you look VERY CAREFULLY at the wording of it? As far as I can tell most of the wording is something along the lines of "High visibility CLOTHING must be worn etc" Now, from what I have seen, most people usually wear more than the one item of clothing such as a jacket - skirt, trousers, hat etc (prevents bother with Plod with regard to indecency laws) so what is there to prevent you from wearing say a hi-vis green bobble hat, fluorescent pink skirt (or shirt if the lads prefer not to wear a skirt) with reflective strips or maybe a scarf? :E :E :E You would be complying with the requirement and would probably stand out from the crowd too whilst driving management slightly bonkers. :E

[arem]

Now, lets see, what colour do the RAF paint their training aircraft so that they can be seen? - did I hear black? their hi-vis colour scheme!!

[Capt Scribble]

The theory being that the eye detects objects by contrast against the background, so to highlight objects they must be brightly lit or completely devoid of light. Therefore, the RAF paints some of its aircraft black and leaves the headlights on if poss. Hi Viz jackets are just more PC junk; if you stand against a similar contrast background there is no benefit at all. But I do wear mine where the risk is greatest, the walk from the carpark in the dark, where drivers are not required to have a special permit. I heard the LGW are employing sharp-shooters on the tower to pick off the guilty!

[TurningFinals]

Jeremy Clarkson once said "the only people who should be wearing a hi viz is someone who's job could involve them being hit by a fast moving jet."

This includes most of us on this forum I would imagine, and what JC says goes!

[passy777]

I don't rate hi vis jackets at all, at least not in an airport environment.


Personal Protective Equipment is ALWAYS at the bottom of the hierarchy of controlling risks. Elimination, reduction, isolation etc. are always the priority and PPE is a last resort or supplements other controls.

I agree to some extent that hi viz clothing ALONE may not prevent impact with vehicles or pedestrian operated handling equipment, but safe operational procedures/working practices including marshalling for instance, training of staff and monitoring of workplaces/areas will certailnly reduce the likelihood, and hi-viz clothing is just one of the measures - not the sole method of accident avoidance.

Certainly one of the key safety measures in an 'apron' environment is effective traffic/people segregation.

This (http://safety.sv.net/pdf/ao_mar-apr03.pdf) is an interesting report that suggests hi-viz clothing is ineffective although I believe it is unfair to dismiss the effectiveness of high - viz clothing outright in certain situations.

What cannot be substantiated however, is how many accidents have been avoided by workers wearing high visibility clothing.


Are Hi-vis jackets not in the european health and safety 6 pack. May be wrong, but i thing it mentions not only should they be warn, but warn fastened at all times !!!!

TOWTEAMBASE you are correct in respect of being part of EU directives and guidance will state that PPE should be worn properly, however, risk assesments will determine as to whether there is a requirement for PPE in the first place.

The PPE regs (Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992)were indeed part of the '6 pack' which came into force in July 1992.

There is guidance to such legislation here (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l25.pdf) although as I quoted earlier, PPE is the last resort of avoiding risk and should only be used when other controls cannot be reasonably implemented or is used as a supplement to other preventative measures.

There is some industry specific legislation such as The Dock Regulations that requires the mandatory use of Hi-Viz clothing for certain staff.

Remember - personal protective equipment is like a goalkeeper in a football match - when a striker has beaten the midfield and breached the defence, the goalkeeper is the last hope which unfortunately is not always effective.

Sure, a safety helmet may prevent something falling from height causing a head injury - but it is better to prevent the item falling in the first place!

so what is there to prevent you from wearing say a hi-vis green bobble hat, fluorescent pink skirt (or shirt if the lads prefer not to wear a skirt) with reflective strips or maybe a scarf? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif You would be complying with the requirement and would probably stand out from the crowd too whilst driving management slightly bonkers. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Certainly here in the UK, It would be very unlikely that you would be 'complying with the requirements' as such 'flamboyant' clothing would not conform to British Standard BS EN 471.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I don't rate hi vis jackets at all, at least not in an airport environment.
Personal Protective Equipment is ALWAYS at the bottom of the hierarchy of controlling risks. Elimination, reduction, isolation etc. are always the priority and PPE is a last resort or supplements other controls.

I agree to some extent that hi viz clothing ALONE may not prevent impact with vehicles or pedestrian operated handling equipment, but safe operational procedures/working practices including marshalling for instance, training of staff and monitoring of workplaces/areas will certailnly reduce the likelihood, and hi-viz clothing is just one of the measures - not the sole method of accident avoidance.

The point I'm trying to make is not "high vis clothing is not a panacea" but rather that in an airport environment it can actually serve as camoflage.

I've seen it render people almost invisible, especially during a 'quick glance'.

I don't see why people make such a fuss about high-vis jackets. What is wrong with putting it on for 5 minutes, so you can do your walk around on the apron? Where is the problem in that? Do you think it "cramps" your style? You are paid to fly and do so safely. If 'looking good' is your priority then god help us.

The problem is, Sir Herbert, that I don't want to get squashed like a bug because I'm wearing a bright coloured vest that (a) does not contrast with the white, yellow floodlit paint scheme of the aircraft I'm walking around and (b) breaks up the 'human shaped' outline that is the primary visual cue my killer might have been able to use to spot me.

pb

[passy777]

The problem is, Sir Herbert, that I don't want to get squashed like a bug because I'm wearing a bright coloured vest that (a) does not contrast with the white, yellow floodlit paint scheme of the aircraft I'm walking around.

Then how about wearing a 'bright coloured vest' that does contrast with the white, yellow floodlit paint scheme of the aircraft?

As I alluded to earlier, the PPE should be the last line of defence for protecting you and it would be hoped that to avoid being 'squashed like a bug', there are other supplementry safe working practices in place to avoid impact with vehicles.

The reality is that many airports have a mandatory requirement to wear such clothing in certain areas.

I generally accept that there is no authoritative evidence that confirms Hi-Viz clothing will prevent accidents, however, I supect there is no verification to suggest it has caused any either.

[Dual ground]

Surely that is what the rather natty reflective stripes are for Capt Pit Bull. To ensure that you are conspicuous are night.....