Courcheval questions

[VMC-on-top]

I'm thinking of venturing over to Courcheval next year in a Bonanza. My questions are:

1. Do I need an Altiport rating as well as a Mountain rating or does the Mountain rating cover specific Altiports too? How many hours are each rating?

2. Is it feasible to get there in a SEP (non FIKI) from NE England in winter?

3. Is it feasible to do with an IMCr rather than an IR? (specific day of arrival not being a massive issue - within a day or two anyway).

thanks.

[mm_flynn]

I'm thinking of venturing over to Courcheval next year in a Bonanza. My questions are:

1. Do I need an Altiport rating as well as a Mountain rating or does the Mountain rating cover specific Altiports too? How many hours are each rating?

2. Is it feasible to get there in a SEP (non FIKI) from NE England in winter?

3. Is it feasible to do with an IMCr rather than an IR? (specific day of arrival not being a massive issue - within a day or two anyway).

thanks.
I think long distance winter flight in a non-FIKI aircraft to a schedule of a day or 2 is always problematic.

Certainly when skiing there I have always either been in clear blue (possibly with clouds in the valley) or blinding snow - so you are either in conditions where you don't need an IR in France or conditions where it will be impossible to land. However, without an IR it makes your planning of 'plan B' more important - you can't just divert to Chambery or Geneva and shoot an ILS.

I believe today, you need a site specific rating (valid for 6 months) or the full French Mountain rating (which IIRC has different requirements for ski and wheel ops)

[IO540]

2. Is it feasible to get there in a SEP (non FIKI) from NE England in winter?

Sure - depends on the weather :)

3. Is it feasible to do with an IMCr rather than an IR? (specific day of arrival not being a massive issue - within a day or two anyway).

As above :)

I think, as you are talking VFR-only, you have about a 25-50% chance of doing the trip on a specific day.

IFR will improve it somewhat but not as much as one might expect. In warmer temps, it improves things to maybe 75% or more, IF you can land on an IAP.

[S-Works]

We generally fly to Grenoble and then rent a car to get to 1850.

You probably have a better chance of getting into Grenoble VFR.

[hoodie]

Your Q3 implies that your IMCR priviliges would be usable outside the UK - which of course, they would not be (legally).

[VMC-on-top]

I should have been clearer.

What I should have said was VFR / VMC on top.

[hoodie]

I should have got that from your handle really, shouldn't I? :)

[wsmempson]

BTW The pedant in me feels that I should point out that it's actually spelt "Courchevel"...

I did a couple of hours with an instructor at the altiport two years ago and enjoyed it hugely but, as a field at 7,000ft, with no navaids, in the middle of the alps, during winter, I reckon that your chances of a VFR arrival there, from the uk direct, are pretty minimal. Even if you did have the necessary ratings and felt current enough to use them.

Probably best to plan on flying down to Lyon Bron or Grenoble Isere or Chambery and perhaps meeting an instructor there for the flight up to the altiport.

This is the guy I flew with and might be worth a chat?

thierry gerard
aeroclub du dauphine

work 0033479083123
mobile 0033609735054
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[RatherBeFlying]

Field Reports (http://www.higher.flyer.co.uk/html/lflj.html)

AEROCLUB COURCHEVEL DES 3 VALLEES :: AC3V | Savoie (73) :: Alpes :: France | Bienvenue à la Montagne ! (http://www.aeroclub3vallees.com/formation)

[Adrian N]

1. Do I need an Altiport rating as well as a Mountain rating or does the Mountain rating cover specific Altiports too? How many hours are each rating?

You need either a full mountain rating, which is currently valid for life at all altiports and altisurfaces with no currency requirements, or you need a site authorisation for Courchevel which needs to be renewed by experience by landing as P1 once every 6 months, or renewed by flying there with an instructor who also holds a full mountain rating.

To learn to fly a circuit safely at Courchevel in nice weather takes a few landings and perhaps a couple of hours. Some instructors will give you a site authorisation after that. To do it safely, you should also spend a couple of hours learning to fly and navigate in the mountains, and experience different wind conditions - typically a sign off for your first altiport from a thorough instructor would take 5 or 6 hours flying.

The full mountain rating is quite different, and typically takes between 15 and 30 hours training for the wheels rating, and about the same again for the ski rating.

Chambéry is the sensible place to fly to if you don't have the rating, as long as you don't want to park there on a Saturday when the British charters arrive.

[Flyboy-F33]

I have flown there in a Bonanza on the way back from a holiday in Spain, Chambery was our stopping off point, it's about 1/2 hr from there up the valleys. You would need to be familiar with the area as it is fairly easy to pick the wrong valley with disasterous consequenses. I would say to do it anything other than reasonable VFR is asking for trouble. And to get into Chambery in marginal VFR is risky (its surrounded by mountains). Technically all you need is the courchevel sign off and to be within 6 months of your last landing there. Go on nice day and its an awsome experience.

GG

[LH2]

Just to add to the above:

Technically all you need is the courchevel sign off and to be within 6 months of your last landing there

Apart from that, you will need to be a fairly competent pilot to attempt a landing there if not current, even though Courchevel is, relatively speaking, one of the easy altiports.

Realistically, you probably want to aim for one of the "flatland" airports like Chambéry or Genève, as previously suggested. Maybe post a line here before you go--personally, if I happen to be in the area and you're not more than two people I'd be happy to give you a lift to CVL and back via Mousquetaire.

[IO540]

I know nothing about Courchevel but I have heard a number of highly experienced pilots say (about it and other similar places) that it makes more sense to fly to a nearby "normal" runway, and take the bus.

All these altiports are surrounded by copious amounts of wreckage, including stuff flown by "professional" pilots.

[nouseforaname]

Its good fun flying into Courchevel I fltplanned to Courchevel just before xmas, couldn't get in there due wx and diverted to a v.busy Chambery. Left the a/c there and it's about 1h30 to Courchevel 2hrs to Val d'isere. Not a bad journey at all but taxis v. expensive (€250+!!)

One tip, you may have trouble getting your ifr fltplan accepted with a route to Chambery due the high traffic density at weekends there (ski holiday changeover days). Trick i pulled was flt planned to Courchevel even though I knew there was an 80% chance I wouldn't get in there and got it accepted but diverted to Chambery with Geneva controller.

[VMC-on-top]

Have emailed Thierry - thanks.

I'm not underestimating the altiport or the experience to get there and most certianly, have no intention of flying that far having only done a handful of hours to get the local rating. However, surely with a GPS, it "should" be relatively easy to find it on a good VFR day?

[Adrian N]

All these altiports are surrounded by copious amounts of wreckage

Mostly just Courchevel, which attracts people who should know better because they keep the runway clear of snow in the winter. There are far fewer accidents at the other altiports, although all of them except Megève are more difficult than Courchevel.

VMC-on-top - on a nice day with a GPS, it is a piece of cake to find it as long as you use a bit of common sense. Without a GPS it has a tendency to move from one valley to the next.... On overcast days, it sometimes seems to disappear altogether.

Re Chambéry - it's 48 hrs PPR by NOTAM until April 18th, with restricted access, special VFR routes through their (class E) airspace, very limited parking availability, and inevitably on a Saturday lots of commercial traffic complaining about having to hold for so long. Fine on other days, but best avoided on Saturdays.

LH2 - where do you fly from?

[Fuji Abound]

I have flown in and out of Courchevel albeit whilst near their for skiing so chosing the weather was far less of a problem. In VMC it is straight forward and not a difficult approach or runway with good facilities. I would happily arrive their direct form the UK in good weather, but even having flown from there I would have little interest pitching up in marginal conditions.