NTSB Recommends Airlines Routinely Monitor CVR's

[Machaca]

AFP reports (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100224/pl_afp/usaviationblackbox_20100224193323/print):

US watchdog wants to eavesdrop on cockpit chit-chat

WASHINGTON (AFP) – US air safety officials want to monitor "black box" voice recorders in a bid to eliminate the kind of cockpit banter blamed for an airliner crash last year in New York that killed 50 people. "It is essential to understand what is going on in the cockpit if we are to achieve further reductions" in the number of accidents involving commercial aircraft, Debbie Hersman, chair of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said in a statement sent to AFP Wednesday.
"The benefits attained from the cockpit voice recorder should not be limited to posthumous investigations," she said.
The NTSB recommendation that cockpit black boxes be routinely monitored came in the agency's report, released this month, into the crash in which 49 passengers and crew and one person on the ground died when a Continental Airlines commuter plane slammed into a house outside Buffalo, New York.
The black box on that flight showed that the pilot and co-pilot "began a conversation that was unrelated to their flying duties" when the aircraft was below 10,000 feet (3,000 meters) as it approached Buffalo International airport.
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and airline policy rules prohibit non-essential discussions when flying below 10,000 feet.
In another case of pilot distraction, two Northwest Airlines pilots overshot their destination by 100 miles (160 kilometers) because they were chatting and using their laptops, which is also in violation of aviation safety rules.
If the NTSB recommendation is put in place, airlines would themselves monitor cockpit voice recorders from their own aircraft, and they would do so "for safety reasons, not punitive reasons," Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs for the NTSB, told AFP.
The NTSB is also asking the FAA "to seek legislation, if necessary, to ensure the protection of those recordings from public disclosure," Lopatkiewicz said.
Only cockpit conversations on US airlines would be monitored, he said.

[411A]

Nothing new...when I was at SQ some years ago, CVR transcripts were played...regularly, at management cocktail parties.
Notes taken...pilots not renewed with their contracts.
An old story.
Nothing new.

Loose lips...sink ships.
IE...keep your opinions to yourself.:}

[protectthehornet]

411A

has a point.

I would be proud of what is on the CVR from my flights. I try to run a good cockpit

I have found that those who run a bad cockpit are the first to say NO to cvr monitoring.

funny how that works , isn't it?

but what is SQ?

[Bluestar51]

SQ is Singapore.

BS

[sb_sfo]

I'd like to hear this CVR...
Incident: Air Canada A321 at Toronto on Feb 22nd 2010, landed without clearance (http://avherald.com/h?article=427b9ef7&opt=1)

AC485/22 Feb lands at YYZ w/o talking to the tower.

[Huck]

Don't kid yourself - those things are listened to more than you think.

[Squawk7777]

Don't kid yourself - those things are listened to more than you think.

Absolutely! There's no law preventing management to listen to the CVRs. :uhoh:

[swish266]

S7777
You are talking BS.
Downloading and deciphering CVRs takes man-hours and job-orders.
In any decent a/l these job-orders (MAINT entries on the TLP) will be kept on file for a while.
I recently had a meet with my CP over a young "protected" but under-performing FO. The boss had ordered the tape to be removed as I stood accused of verbal abuse, but did not have it deciphered as he would have needed a valid excuse to do so... And, of course, he didn't have one.
Still I support the monitoring below 10000' as it will definitely help improve safety.
:ok:

[Sqwak7700]

I will gladly allow managers at my airline to listen to my CVR recordings as long as I am also allowed to listen to the recordings of all their meetings and telephone conversations while at work.

If they have nothing to hide or be ashamed of they shouldn't have any problem with it. :ok:

[MosEisley]

Bad Idea. I'm sure there are some outfits that will use it as a safety tool but more than likely it will be used as a weapon against anyone who opposes management. I think the data that is randomly and anonymously collected from FDRs is more valuable. I could be talking about cars or strip clubs but as long as the aircraft gets from A to B in a safe and stable manner and I follow the SOPs then what does it matter? It is valuable in post crash investigation but only on occasion is failure to maintain a sterile cockpit below 10K a factor.

A mechanism that would only allow management to listen to those portions of the CVR that occur below 10K AAL might be a viable training tool, otherwise it's just spying.

For those who don't know, for a CVR to be pulled and checked in the US, there are specific legal requirements and paperwork. For management to listen to it, the pilots must be present and are entitled to legal representation.

One of he best parts of my previous contract was a clause that stated that no discliplinary action could be taken against a pilot based on recorded data. The point was to protect the pilots against a hostile management. On the flipside, we had one of the best safety records of any airline and a top FOQA program.

Several years ago I might have agreed that it is a harmless and potentially valuable tool, but after working with current management, they would simply use it to eavesdrop and fire any rabble-rousers. I'm sure they do listen to CVRs and would never state it as the reason for dismissal, but they would put a big target on you.

[PantLoad]

Back in my working days....I always made it a point to erase the CVR tape at the end of the Parking Checklist. Maybe mamagement had the erase button disconnected....maybe that's why I never progressed any further in my career.... :mad::mad::mad:


There are always a few exceptions....but, generally, I've found the management types to be a bunch of worthless XXXXsuckers.


While I never totally agreed with the goings-on of the union, I was always glad and proud to be a union member.

BTW, Sqwak7700 hit the nail on the head!!!!!


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[4Greens]

It was standard practice in my youth to scrub the CVR on blocks. On a more serious note, the more monitoring of this type that goes on, the less data will be around to analyse in the event of an accident.

[Capn Bloggs]

Getting behind the aircraft and unstable inadvertently is one thing, but how hard is it to obey the Sterile Cockpit rule? It's not as though you need to be an ace pilot to comply with that rule...

[ManchesterFinals23R]

What about Virgin in this Video:
There was a slightly longer version on there somewhere
YouTube - Virgin Atlantic B744 Landing at LAX, REAL!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIggut7Dn-4)
"Like a cat pi**in on a velvet cushion"
Not sure who was chatting though :)

[Avman]

Don't you just love the gloves. Must have been an ex BOAC guy!

[Basil]

US air safety officials want to monitor "black box" voice recorders
In the words of a great Lady: "NO! NO! NO!"
The CVR was introduced in order to assist accident investigation, a purpose which has been successfully achieved.
At that time it was agreed that CVR recordings would ONLY be used for accident investigation.

Time to get the unions involved and, in the interim, pull the CVR CB.


Must have been an ex BOAC guy!
Naah, they couldn't land like that; must have been ex BEA :ok:

[udachi moya]

Most airlines, including my current bode of peace has a QAR, Quick Access Recorder, and it doesnt take more than a memory stick or a 3 1/2 inch diskette to download raw data and raw voice. And it cant be reset with the magic little green button, its on a loop for 7 days and is independant from the main boxes - voice audio is instant, data takes a little longer

Nothing new, nothing to be scared about, nowt to complain about. You are an employee of the airline, if they decide to monitor convos and decide your cockpit practices are not up to company standards, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

[By George]

With Security rummaging through your underwear, random drug and alcohol testing, full body scanners taking 3-D pictures of your 'wobbly-bits', somebody listening to your conversation while flying seems natural progression to me.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

QARs in my company record FDR data only- there is no voice element. QAR data is ALL downloaded and analysed, but by the safety department- management have no access.
If an exceedance or incident is highlighted (and not already reported by the crew) then the safety department will contact the pilots directly.
Incidentally, many of the pilots in my company know how to disable the QAR- in fact, in a previous job, the company issued a memo threatening immediate dismissal for anyone who did so- along with a description of how it is done! :rolleyes:
I have never seen it done, or done it myself... but our engineers assure me it works.

[West Coast]

Just what I need. Some comments made outside of sterile about a member of management, a young lassie in the back or anything else management considered offensive is now in the public forum.

Don't think some well placed comments about the lineage in the CEO's family tree wouldn't have repercussions.

During a debate last Summer over video camera's (this absolutely opens the door for them) in the cockpit one former member of the NTSB roundly criticized the others in the interview. No way, no how he promised would video tape ever make it outside of a privileged few with an absolute need to see it for accident investigation purposes. The story that led up to it, piccies and video from the Michael Jackson autopsy, another supposedly sacrosanct event.

[Huck]

If this does happen, we can't say we didn't bring it on ourselves, at least here in the U.S.

Like my grandpa used to say, people generally get the respect they deserve. Lexington, Buffalo and Charlotte (BE-1900) all left violations of sterile cockpit on the tape. NWA's overfly incident was as egregious as they come.

[N7242G]

I like what CarltonBrowne the FO said; allow the SAFETY department to view these tapes. If there's a true safety issue, it can be dealt with. If someone says something that management wouldn't agree with, too bad for management. Just because you say something that goes against what one person says does not give that person the right to fire you. Now, if you're chatting about Porsche and Mercedes at 50' from landing, you're gonna have to explain yourself.

[Squawk7777]

S7777
You are talking BS.
Downloading and deciphering CVRs takes man-hours and job-orders.
In any decent a/l these job-orders (MAINT entries on the TLP) will be kept on file for a while.
I recently had a meet with my CP over a young "protected" but under-performing FO. The boss had ordered the tape to be removed as I stood accused of verbal abuse, but did not have it deciphered as he would have needed a valid excuse to do so... And, of course, he didn't have one.
Still I support the monitoring below 10000' as it will definitely help improve safety.

I'm afraid you're the one talking BS. With the digital FDRs it is nothing more than a few keystrokes on the computer and a cable hooked up to the airplane's CVR to listen to the last couple of hours. Who cares about man-hours if maintenance is on salary and watches repeats of wheel of fortune on the graveyard shift? You have obviously never taken a look behind the screen what's going on. Management can be really creative when it comes to paperwork (or the lack of it!). This is not much about the 10000' sterile rule but more an intrusion of your freedom of speech at work (if there's such a thing).

[lomapaseo]

Interesting and valuable reactions above.

Do we trust the crew-union safety officer and the company safety officer to extract some lessons learned out of CVR samplings without retribution other than a visit over a spot of tea?

The fewer the number of people that participate in a party-balanced review the less chance of embarassing leaks of tidbits rather than generic lessons.

[Squawk7777]

If the 10000' mark is the main issue, then pass a law/regulation that the company (through safety officers etc.) can only listen to the cockpit conversation up to and down from 10000'.

7 7 7 7

[Basil]

Don't forget the thread is about CVR, not QAR/FDR.
In my British company I was happy that BALPA was on top of QAR monitoring; not so sure about another employer at about GMT+8 :hmm:

[jimpy1979uk]

There's a whole world or changes coming with regard to flight recorders.

The FAA have launch a final rule on CVR and DFDR regulations.
ICAO have proposed ammendments to Annex 6 Part 1, 2 and 3.
EASA have an NPA out there for the changes too.
Eurocae ED112 has superceeded ED55 and ED56.

I think what is implied by this report is that airlines will have to begin scheduled downloads of CVR data similar to what happens to DFDRs to verify that the quality of the recordings is of an acceptable standard.

Additionally the FAA rule requires all FAA regulated aircraft to have TSO-124a approved CVRs fitted which have a 2 hour recording duration.

Some of the other changes are the recording of datalink messages which is going to come in. Most manufacturers are looking at recording this data to the CVR rather than in a seperate recorder.

Additionally the proposed ammendments to Annex 6 and Eurocae ED112 expand the number of recording systems from two, CVR and DFDR to four, CVR, DFDR, Datalink Recorders, Flight Video Recorders.

Lots of work required by the aircraft manufacturers to make this happen though so don't expect it over night!

[protectthehornet]

real time voice and video links to the ground from the cockpit and retired pilots employed by the NTSB should be monitoring things...a pilot could not lose his job for saying:

management sucks:

but he might lose his job for saying : Management sucks below 10,000feet ;-)

[Huck]

There once was a small freight operation that had a chief pilot named Joe.

There was a landing incident, involving some blown tires. The CVR was downloaded and reviewed.

Evidently the chief pilot had just made some announcement or other. In the descent, the captain was recorded to have said, "Well, I guess ol' Joe's taking us up the a## again...."

[Five Green]

I like this job less and less.

I would agree if you taped Management meetings as Corporate culture features in to most accidents and should be monitored.

If management makes a decision to push flight times or reduce crew, or crew control calls someone out in a way that reduces their rest it should all be recorded and reviewed !!

That is much more likely to cause an accident than chatter of competent crew !!

I think that they should have someone chattering like hell during your sim rides so that you can concentrate under distraction.

.25c

[mrdeux]

I guess it means that at least a % of CVR circuit breakers will be pulled.

[rottenray]

... employee of every major concern has been subjected to video and audio surveillance for the last two decades.

Personally, I'd prefer that your employers didn't download CVR and FDR data as a way of "keeping tabs" on you.

On the other hand -

- funny how there is always that extra other hand...

... some of the employment situations pilots find themselves in truly warrant constant review.

Young newbs who don't consider themselves to be mortal or fallible might benefit from this.

It would be a huge violation of workspace privacy to those who have proven themselves through years of exemplary performance.

But there needs to be a compromise.

Grown from roots pilots might need to accept more monitoring, simply to help younger pilots who have not had the benefit of the same training and chance for experience.

Do I think it's a good idea personally?


With great emphasis, NO!


But, I'm from the generation who reveled in flying aboard a 727.


Facts are, many pilots now are there for the earning potential as primary consideration.

If anyone else can help with this thought, I'll be grateful.

A certain percentage of those who worked themselves into right or left seats did so simply for the prestige and the money.

But many, perhaps most, climbed there way up because of a love for flight and genuine respect for the wonderful aircraft they could fly.

I think the percentage has changed in the last decade or so.

Not to insult any, and certainly not to insult the pilots who frequent PPruNe and post (and often excoriate me) I think the balance has shifted a bit.

Now, more are in it for the money, and fewer are in it for the love.

Do I object to constant review of pilots who consider their occupation just a job?

Not one bit. Have at it.


But, I truly don't want anyone to inhibit those pilots who consider their avocation to be what it truly is - a form of modern art which requires utmost skill, concentration, and knowledge to perform correctly.

Out of 10,000 flights, perhaps one flight would benefit from being monitored; the others would simply be a waste of time. Of this 10k, most points of interest would likely fall into the category of training and the information provided by ATC.

Out of a million flights, perhaps one would reveal "unacceptable" behavior on the flight deck.

And out of those, maybe one or two would present actionable behavior.


If we could "strip out" all the negatives at this point, we'd prolly have an extremely safe system. Adequate rest, a level of zero stress reporting for a flight, more accurate and reassuring load sheets.


Until we can provide that, we'll be stuck with the same system we have now. It's moderately safe.

Many new pilots are ushered into a system which, by its own admission, has a plethora of mutually exclusive compromises. Economics versus safety. Schedule versus safety and customer service.


I'm not knocking the current scheme, simply saying it could be much better.


RR

[outofsynch]

To push the erase button at the end of every flight. Start now so you may be in practice when the time comes.

The worst CRM could come when crew sit together, and dont say anything for the whole flight. Anyone can do a checklist while pointing instead of talking!!

Imagine the amazement of management listening to a recording with no talking except on the radio. Spooky!! :}

[protectthehornet]

relax

few of the NTSB's ideas have been adopted.

why not demand that pay at an airline allow for a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle within 50 miles of the airport?

[deathcruzer]

Good one someone else with no idea of the aviation environment sticking their oar in....Start this crap and see chewing gum on the monitor heads or cb's pulled or tapes disappearing etc what a negative contribution to flight safety.
It really frightens me to think of the poor quality people we have in charge of some of the most important legislation in this business. Come on lady push off before you cause any permanent damage here. :mad:

You really want to sort out potential safety issues…look at the hours and duty periods that pilots are expected to work…..or is that not a commercial option…money or safety……. eh?.....:ugh:

[MungoP]

This could be one of the few things that would have me feeling sorry for management...
Imagine... hours upon hours of listening to...

" Roster.. Whinge Whinge... Bidding..Whinge Whinge... Flight pay... Whinge Whinge ... State of the Industry ... Whinge Whinge ad nauseum:bored:

[Finn47]

Listening to CVR tapes for a living would be one of the most boring jobs imaginable :hmm: Any volunteers here? ... I didn´t think so...

[protectthehornet]

I also want crew sked and dispatch recorded and reviewed as well.

no captain, you don't LEGALLY NEED any more fuel

I OWN YOUR ASS TILL TUESDAY

etc

[Huck]

Other union investigators suggested a plastic cap for CAM (easily purchased at any hardware store).


Actually it was the little rubber doo-hickey that goes on the end of a crutch.

(break break)

Think of the logistics for a second - I'd imagine that for every two-man cockpit, you'd need at least two people whose full-time job would be to listen to CVR data. That'd be over 600 people at my company alone.....

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

My initial reaction is 'No Freakin WAY!' :mad:

On the other hand, management would find out what the workforce really thinks about them, in an extremely personal way.:uhoh:

Could that be useful?

They'd need thick skins to listen to them tapes!

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I am currently working for a company that does this and it has been mandated by local CAA (India). Additionally, the "erase" buttons are placarded INOP. I'm not a particular fan of that, but to answer some posts above:
- it is technically possible (though only a fraction of the CVR's is listened to)
- one can get used to that. It does prevent people from talking below 10000ft and bitchin' on the managers too much :}

[Sqwak7700]

The sad truth is that this BS will actually decrease safety. Because it won't be long before crews get into the habit of doing something to circumvent this invasion of privacy (pull CBs, cover cockpit mics / interphone off, etc.) and it won't be long before an aircraft accident in which CVR data will be corrupt or non-existent.

I really wish we would go back to the days of common sense. :ugh:

[Squawk7777]

I really wish we would go back to the days of common sense.

I'm afraid those days are gone, I don't even recommend this career anymore. :uhoh:

[Piltdown Man]

They should get on with real safety stuff, like insisting operators pay enough so their employees don't have to moonlight or deadhead across a continent to go to work. They should have a proper understanding of how those in the lowest rungs of aviation live so Colgan 3407 doesn't happen again. Debbie Hersman should get her fingers out of her RRR's and do some work. Piddling about with CVR's will not fix the REAL problem.

PM

[nicolai]

Think of the logistics for a second - I'd imagine that for every two-man cockpit, you'd need at least two people whose full-time job would be to listen to CVR data. That'd be over 600 people at my company alone.....

Automation will soon make this easy. Google is offering audio transcription on YouTube videos now, and any number of companies sell systems that work on natural speech - ever called a service line that asks you to state your problem, product, location, etc, and automatically works from there? They will only get better at this.

Audio transcription will become a paid service, a cheap one: upload your audio, download transcripts, pay a small bill at the end of the month. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to pick out most of the words.

Then fishing expeditions on CVR contents become a computer search problem, and the fishermen will just get whatever CVR recordings have interesting words in them to listen more carefully.

You won't be an invisible needle in a haystack, you'll be a needle in a haystack where someone has a very large magnet to find you.

[rottenray]

nicolai writes:

You won't be an invisible needle in a haystack, you'll be a needle in a haystack where someone has a very large magnet to find you.

Agree.

But -

If we're going to hold FD crew to perfect standards, we need to go back to the concept of paying them well and hiring the best of the best.

[PJ2]

nicolai;
Automation will soon make this easy. Google is offering audio transcription on YouTube videos now, and any number of companies sell systems that work on natural speech - ever called a service line that asks you to state your problem, product, location, etc, and automatically works from there? They will only get better at this.

Audio transcription will become a paid service, a cheap one: upload your audio, download transcripts, pay a small bill at the end of the month. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to pick out most of the words.

Then fishing expeditions on CVR contents become a computer search problem, and the fishermen will just get whatever CVR recordings have interesting words in them to listen more carefully.

You won't be an invisible needle in a haystack, you'll be a needle in a haystack where someone has a very large magnet to find you.

And you will get exactly what you pay for: Junk, not worth the paper it's printed on.

The airline industry has made parsimony a science, and a religion.

An industry that will not pay properly for flight crews is certainly not going to pay for programs like this, not because it's good bang for buck but because nobody who knows anything about flight data including CVRs would take it seriously or use the information for anything important.

If Congress is successful with this kind of nonsense, such a program would become nothing more than an administrivial box-tick (just like a lot of SMS work), and fall into disuse.

As usual, the focus is on getting rid of symptoms of problems and not coming to terms with the problems themselves.

[LNAV VNAV -]

This situation sort of reminds me of the ban on using the mobile while driving in this country: There were a few accidents because people were holding their mobile instead of the steering wheel so they banned it.

Then there were a few accidents where people were using the speaker of the mobile and were distracted from driving so it was suggested that talking on the mobile using the speaker phone should also be banned.

But then someone said, 'what about speaking to the person sitting next to you in the car? If we ban using the speaker phone, shouldn't we ban that as well?' And then someone else said: 'If we ban talking alltogether, what about thinking? Surely thinking about other stuff can be a distaction whilst driving! Should we ban thinking?'

So they can listen to the CVRs. If a pilot doesn't know that he needs to pay attention during the approach, if he's not talking to the person sitting next to him it doesn't mean that he will be paying attention. He may be daydreaming. So what's next? Recording your brain waves?!

[PJ2]

LNAV VNAV;
Recording your brain waves?!
The future of brain-controlled devices - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/12/30/brain.controlled.computers/index.html)

NeuroSky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeuroSky)

And some think that fly-by-wire is "not really flying the airplane"?... This may be at the "toy and gamer" stage right now, but...

[A-3TWENTY]

And..What about recording all the manager´s activities??

Actually , the real s!"#$ comes from their offices. They are the guys who with their BS take lots of airlines to bankrupcy every year...

I am 39 , still have to fly 25 years, but I`m already completely tired of this profession and its burocratic rules made by tie idiots who spend most of their time scratching the balls and the rest of their time figuring out stupid ideas.

But what takes me to exaustion is to hear from sheepy coleagues. The ones who act like sheeps , saying yes to all BS , either because they believe themselves superior to others or because they are simply "yes men".

:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Microburst2002]

I totally agree.

In every corporation should have a "transcriptor" who recorded every meeting, every conversation, and kept a log of each decision, each event, each fact, when it occurred, who said what, etc...
At least in those corporations where management decisions can affect the safety and lives of many many more people than the passengers of an airliner. Including, of course, Airbus, Boeing, Honeywell...
When some problem occurred, investigators would just take a look at the transcriptions and use the recordings to find who was responsible.

If they are going to monitor our conversations even if nothing has happened yet, what is going to be the penalty for the misuse of it (including leakages) by the management?

they cannot guarantee that they will be used properly.

Remember that "we are going down, Larry!__I know, I know...!"?

[Global Warrior]

On another thread, there is allegedly a Qatar Airways crew that HAS been fired for derogatory remarks about the CEO............ no mention as to whether it was 10,000' or below.

[172_driver]

EU-OPS 1.160(c)(1):

(c) Use of recordings

1. The cockpit voice recorder recordings may not be used for purposes other than for the investigation of an accident or incident subject to mandatory reporting except with the consent of all crew members concerned.



:=