easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

[EGCC4284]

I am really sorry to say this. I don’t work for you, but I have friends who do. I have friends who have gone through the CTC thing and they are telling me what they are being offered to work for you.

Signing up for a 3 year contract earning £23,000 a year before tax and that’s if they do 900 hours. Plus a clause in the contract that if they leave before 3 years, they get penalised, so like a bond even after they have already paid CTC £70,000 plus. Is this true.

New cadets are taking home £1700 a month if they are lucky and got a £1000 plus a month loan to pay, explain that one

Then I get an e-mail today from Flight International saying that CTC are looking for Airbus pilots for easyJet.

I can’t believe that your CC are doing jack all about this. Sorry, but I think its time you lot started acting instead of head in the sand.

If this is true and your CC think it is fine, then you need others on your CC.

Everyone in the industry are looking at you and shaking their heads. Many are now saying that going into easyJet is worst than going to Ryanair and that no one thought that one day they would say that.

Norman Stanley Fletcher, please tell me I am wrong.

anyone from easyJet CC like to put me straight on this one.

We all are waiting to hear from the horses mouth

[disco87]

I've never been able to work out what CC stands for, what is it?

[spanner the cat]

Crikey!

TRSS will have something to say about Easy being better than Ryanair at something (shafting pilots) :E

EGCC 4284
You're right. It's utterly appalling that this is taking place.

At least with ryanair they keep you employed with a reasonable prospect of good earnings. This is little more than exploitation; easyjet - you are heading the way of Colgan Air. :oh:

[spanner the cat]

disco87
Company Council

in your case - Complete Coq. :E

[shaun ryder]

Easyjet a total bag of :mad:, who would want to work for them.

[Bbow]

I'm with BFB on this one....

Although I feel for the cadets having been offered this contract...there's no legal obligation for them to sign for it, so if they do then that's their own fault and they shouldn't b*tch about it afterwards. It was the same when TRSS came out in '04/'05 (?) . Everybody was shocked and a lot were moaning about it, but sure enough people kept signing up for it and it became the norm. And as long as people sign up for it the company will keep taking the p*ss.

I have spoken to several "flexicrew" over the last few weeks and when asked if they have looked around for any other flying jobs the overall answer is "NO". :ugh:

[EGCC4284]

Sorry, its the likes of you saying its their fault for signing up. Wrong, when their is more of them, your T&C's will be attacked.

I have seen it before in my last career.

I can't believe that easyJet CC are doing nothing about it. Myself and many many others are watching you lot in despair

I think your CC are letting you down big time here. We have been told on the outside that your CC don't see anything wrong with what is happening. What a bunch of ??????. They are making a fool out of everyone

[BigNumber]

No one is being forced to sign this contract are they?

Plenty of smiling faces at 'Concorde House', cheap flights for the punters, and prouds Mums.

It's a win win scenario. Enjoy.

[EGCC4284]

There was 100 pilots from Globaspan looking for work, there is 100 pilots from Thomson looking for work, there is 100 pilots from BMI looking for work. Explain to me, why do easyJet want CTC to send them pilots for £23,000 a year. Your management are taking the piss and the easyJet CC are sitting with their heads in the sand. It will eat away at your T&C's and everyone elses outside of easyJet.

Honestly, someone said to me the other day that they never thought that easyJet would be a worst place to go to than Ryanair.

Imagine if this gets in the press

[BigNumber]

EGCC,

However noble, I fear you are missing the point.

1. EZY are happy with a cost effective 'turn key' pilotage solution.

2. The Punters are happy with heavily subsidised flights to the Costa's for a cheap summer junket.

3. 'Ruperts' chuffed because he's in 2 'gold bars' and down 'Bar Med' on a Tuesday night.

4. 'Ruperts' Mum's chuffed because she can 'blow off' to her mates at the Cheltenham Bridge Club. Ruperts a pilot for EZY!

You are absolutely right in everything you say; but we cannot stop the rot. Impossible.

[punk666]

EGCC,

Unfortunately even if it did get in the press no one would care, unless it was printed in a news paper that intelligent people read the most. I dont think the local paper in your village or town would be a good one.

My sister has joined EZY Cabin crew and from what I have been told its pretty good pay for an 18 year old, but for the pilots its SICK!!

Money and publicity talks in aviation, I think we need to scare the public about easyjet then people might actually pay attention and avoid them causing there profits to drop then things might change.

[EGCC4284]

Sorry, your wrong. There is someone who can stop the rot and its easyJet pilots with the leadership of a CC who have not got their head in the sand.

And by the way, Ruperts are not chuffed, they are backed into a corner with debt. Do they fly for peanuts to stay current and then try and move on or go doing something else out of the loop.

Our CC are in disbelief that your CC think what is happening is ok. Sorry, but your CC are a joke thinking that everything is cushdy.

[BigNumber]

So, EZY CC and the Aviation Community at large are going to fight to improve the terms of these 'Ruperts' that are now sadly on the inside.

What about the huge number of folks that did not pay a 'dowry' to achieve an undeserved foot on the ladder? I would rather focus my help on the latter and 'cold shoulder' the former.

[EGCC4284]

No, its very simple

If you fly an aircraft as a Second Officer or First Officer, you get the same rate of pay and T&C's everyone else in that company doing the same job. Is that too much to ask for.

If you are all united, then you will all benifit. If you have the attitude of I'm alright Jack, it will come back to bite you before you know it.

[rod_1986]

The EZY CC wanted to go to the press with a story on this.

They were blocked by the other companies in BALPA at the National level.

It's not just the EZY CC at fault here....

[captplaystation]

I have the impression that BALPA at the national level do not want to get involved in anything too "taxing".
They certainly scuppered any chance of union recognition at Ryanair about 3 years ago, when IALPA were baying for blood, and now it seems this is all too "grubby" for them to have a go at.
With no disrespect to the hard working CC members in certain companies, BALPA at national level is a bit of a damp squib.

[thunderbird-1]

It is not the job of inexperience pilots or pilots out of work to fight for T&C's.

We all know that for inexperience pilots, you need to get that first job. Better a crap contract than nothing and if you don't do it, someone will, unfortunatly.

If you become unemployed, especially if you have a family to take care of, again...better a crap contract that nothing. :uhoh:

It is a shame for experience pilots, that spent 5-10 or more years in an airline, enjoying excellent T&C's, lucky to have got a gold contract at that time, looking at their nice belly, to blame and to give the fault to the inexperience/unemployed pilots. :=

It is our job, the experience pilot to fight for our T&C's and to prevent that type of slavery recruitment,contract...

Who is leading the strike in Lufthansa, the cadet on the waiting list or the 747 captains? :ugh:

[timzsta]

Why did Easyjet's CC need the permission of BALPA to go to the press?

[outofsynch]

Use your brains Timzster.... any press 'BALPA' mentioned needs to be santioned by BALPA for legal reasons. Who would the press say the CC represented?

Everybody needs to think about who the CC doesnt reperesent. i.e. the bludgers living off what BALPA has fought for.... The CC is only as strong as their membership level, and the memberships resolve to do something.

However, I dont expect my 'next company's pilots to fight for a good deal for me. If you dont like whats being offered - dont take it. It's these desperado's who sign up for next to nothing who are undermining the industry. Not the happily (?) employed ones.

If no-one accepted the deal easy is offering, what would happen? ;)

[Man Flex]

The goal posts have moved quite considerably for these CTC cadets recently.

Two years ago they were all but guaranteed a permanent contract following a six month period of "training". Now the contract is pay-by-the (scheduled block) -hour with no guarantee of any flying whatsoever.

But they do have a choice. I know of at least one cadet who has decided to get a job outwith aviation so that he can pay his loan payments which are approxmately £1200 per month. HSBC are losing patience of course with people constantly deferring and are putting pressure on some to declare bankruptcy so that the debt can be written off. At least a dozen or so have done just that and are only now finding out the true cost of having zero credit rating.

My own feeling is that these cadets started out with a belief that a job would be there at the end waiting on them. Most of us who have trained to be airline pilots had no such guarantee and knew that ultimately an alternative career may become necessary. It is this rather immature and naive mentality which has forced these cadets into the situation they find themselves in.

They would rather cling to the hope that easyJet will offer a permanent contract at some time in the future than face up to there responsibilities. In doing so they are only fuelling their own demise as the whole thing is self perpetuating. As the realisation slowly dawns easyJet will find themselves severely short of pilots and it only then that the cycle will break.

[thunderbird-1]

It's these desperado's who sign up for next to nothing who are undermining the industry. Not the happily (?) employed ones.

I think the airline is undermining the industry offering those contracts.

. In doing so they are only fuelling their own demise as the whole thing is self perpetuating

And that's why it will never stop.

Only the happily :confused: employed ones can change all that.

[Orange Peel]

C'mon EGSS4284,

You've pissed and moaned at my CC for a few posts so what would you do? What do you know about industrial dispute law that would make it legal for BALPA to do something?

[al446]

You are perfectly correct and I am sick of posting that, within UK employment law, there are no powers for CC or BALPA to directly influence anything. It would be perfectly legal for EZY to offer a contract on min wage and any court in the country would recognise it as legal. The fool who takes it would have willingly enjoined in that contract. If EZY offered them direct then CC or BALPA may have some grounds to challenge but if offered through CTC they are not employed directly by EZY and the grief is with CTC, that is the stark reality.
The only way things can be influenced indirectly is behind the scenes therefore not much publicised, EZY recently made improvements, albeit small and long overdue ones, after discussions with BALPA, at least that is what I read on here.

[favete linguis]

HSBC are losing patience of course with people constantly deferring and are putting pressure on some to declare bankruptcy so that the debt can be written off. At least a dozen or so have done just that and are only now finding out the true cost of having zero credit rating.


And therein lies the problem. Too many on here believe that by declaring themselves bankrupt it wipes their financial slate clean. Well it does not. HSBC will always have rights to the money they lend. The debt is not written off.

Non Provable debts can still be pursued by the creditor despite a bankruptcy order having been made and as for those whose parents have used property equity as assurance then those contemplating bankruptcy should consider that impact.

[Wildpilot]

Allot of pilots spent years gaining valuable experience before believing themselves ready for the flight deck of an airliner. During this time in the GA sector you generally always had terrible T&C's and a tiny wage packet to boot and most of the time no contract!

If these guys and girls who generally have no experience want to get straight to the RH seat then this is the price they pay. If a company went against a contract then by all means moan and get annoyed but if you agreed legally to have crappy conditions then get on with it and stop moaning.

You are a product of your own naivety.

[Half_Cuban]

Wildpilot has made a very valid point, yes I feel sorry for the new cadets, and it's a bad situation for the whole industry to be in, unfortunatelly they're a victim of their own product, a never ending supply of newly qualified pilots for the likes of easyjet to take advantage of!

I did nearly three years instructing so know what it's like to be skint, £1000 was a cracking month, £500 in the winter. Then 3 years on a Turboprop before joining easy.

And I'm sorry but if these guys cant pay their loans then they shouldn't have overstretched themselves in the first place, £100,000 loan is just f*****g ridiculous, a job at the end was never a complete guarantee.

Unfortunatelly the only way I can see the current situation change is if the banks stop lending for pilot training, a huge reduction of newcomers would push up the conditions for the remaining, Supply and Demand!!

[DADDY-OH!]

It beggars belief that that CTC was started by former Captains!!!

I was offered a place on the B737-400 with one of the first CTC schemes but after much advice from 'Old Sweats & Airline Vet's' I rejected the offer & opted for a permanent, fully paid job as an F/O on a turboprop for 2 years, then got a job on a B757 with a major charter airline without it costing me£16k.

A 'Sin'dick-ate of wealthy, well paid off 'retired' training Captains started a company to train the airline pilots of the future & place them on the 1st rung of the ladder leading to a bright future in the Airline world. 15 years later, they are shamelessly peddling the same bile & crap & many of their ex-Cadets are now saddled with even more debt & are hovering around the breadline & financial ruin.

CTC means 'Con! Total Con!'.

Don't fall for it!

BALPA SHOULD DO SOMETHING NOW!!!

[al446]

BALPA SHOULD DO SOMETHING NOW!!!

Such as????

[DADDY-OH!]

al446

What can they do???? Lobby to scrap the 'Pay-to-Fly' abuse for starters.

[D O Guerrero]

Divide and rule.... works every time.

[djfingerscrossed]

favete linguis - please don't use emotive language to try to shock people when it's clear you know very little about how financing and debt works. Nobody has said, and as far as I'm aware, nobody believes that bankruptcy entirely rids them of their financial obligations. HSBC will not, forever, be entitled to the monies. However, most know, having taken appropriate financial advice, that the majority of the debt will be erased given that their future earnings without an airline job are going to be significantly less than what is required for some time.
The point people make is that this should have been considered before jumping in at the deep end but that is entirely a different point.

The problem is now that people are accepting these deals it is becoming increasingly harder to reject them as it is clear there will be no meaningful changes for some time. Indeed the contracts could get worse but I'm not at liberty to discuss that in any detail.
The underlying fear for CTC guys is/was twofold. 1) There is nothing else out there which will pay anywhere near to a decent salary so acceptance in the hope of doing enough hours to get by outweighs the option of rejection and the financial implications that brings with it. 2) It is abundantly clear that easyJet knew that any rejections could easily be made up by offering the other worse quoted deals to OAA graduates. I'm not going to criticise them although it's very clear their quoted line training hours will get them nowhere. easy management knew exactly how to play the situation and hit it for six, so to speak.

A couple of mute points
Half_Cuban the loans are, in the majority £60-65k not the £100k you quote unless of course you speak of the total repayable in which case accept my apologies.

Vexed you're preaching to an audience which, from the sounds of things, sit happily in their ivory tower. Talk is cheap unfortunately although I applaud you for thinking long term.

Wildpilot if CTC was still, pretty much, the guaranteed route into the RHS (you could argue it still is but at what cost) and you had been looking to begin training would you have ignored them and for what reasons? I am talking of brighter times with the then intact 100% full-time placement record.

Man flex it is true there are 2 choices. Most don't have the option of rejection as they have limited, if anything, to go back to. Easy to criticise but bear in mind again the proven track record that was intact.

Before anyone has a pop at me, and you're quite entitled to, I'm a CTC 'product'. I have other options available to me and I am all in favour of rejecting these. I also think that the 1 or 2 rejections that may crop up won't make any difference. I don't like talking about other options as it immediately sounds arrogant or perhaps critical of my colleagues. I am certainly no better than anyone else and I'll make that point strongly if I may.
I've gone through several periods of unrest with some involving industrial action. My opinion is that we all need to be stronger for BALPA to be effective. Previous unions I have been represented by have always covered trainees and I am amazed that BALPA haven't got a specific training category for some representation. On the other hand they don't charge for membership whilst training and have far fewer members so I can see why they don't.
My previous employment has been in a skilled industry that requires stability and longevity. Management, usually, encouraged this as they knew they needed to keep core skills. Perhaps the problem is that anyone occupying a front seat is ultimately replaceable? If you have the hours and the license nobody views you differently from one another. As such the core skills are never noticed and it may indeed take a, dare I say it, further few 'incidents' such as the Colgan crash to wake people up.
The public do not care. The majority want cheap flights to the med and can be spotted by their football shirts and projectile vomiting. Maybe that's a bit cynical.....

[Wildpilot]

djfingerscrossed

To answer your question to me, I would have ignored them mainly due to the fact that I can see through the imagined glamour of the airlines and wanted to fly for a living. I left the UK and have travelled with my flying but not as an airline pilot but as a bush pilot and now a float pilot.

One day if the airlines become attractive to me and me to them I may have a go but to be honest right now I earn as much as the average first officer and enjoy what I do.

I feel little sympathy for these guys and girls who have over committed themselves as no one made them join a sausage factory flying school and sign a ridiculous contract that they must have been aware could go very wrong for them. Someone said earlier that they affect all people that wear gold bars in terms of pay and you are right but an can do little to change peoples minds and to make them see what they are getting into. So day to day I try to ignore the dulling down of the pilots profession from all sectors of aviation and enjoy my my own life.

Hope this makes sense, cheers

[bluepilot]

Its quite simple how the easy CC deals with this. As a recognised union within easyjet BALPA should be consulted regarding terms and conditions of all pilots employed by the company. These terms should be written down on agreed schedules, If Easyjet employ pilots on worse terms agreed by BALPA then this poses a threat to ALL pilot employees within easyjet. (this includes temp contracts , contractors etc). The CC should start by pointing out that agreements have been broken and ask the company to work within agreements, if they do not then the CC ramps up the pressure! This needs to be sorted quickly and attitudes within the company like "nobody is forcing them to sign" will greatly hurt your own terms in the future. Next time there is a meeting for increase in pay the CTC scheme will have become a benchmark and nothing will be forthcoming from the company. You make your bed ...you have to lay in it!

[djfingerscrossed]

Wildpilot - entirely fair enough. You certainly don't need to justify yourself to me I was just interested in what you would have done then.

favete - good for you. HSBC will say and do lots of things. Exactly how much is possible is easy to determine if you seek appropriate advice and are informed. To that end my earlier post is correct. They will give up and they can't pursue things indefinitely. (circumstances dependent obviously).

I'd never advocate bankruptcy anyway but most won't have an option if they refuse the easyJet contract.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

In these Nu Labour saturated days of over extended finances why is HSBC lending such large sums of money to these CTC cadets?

Haven't the banks learnt anything out of the credit crunch? or is the local HSBC loans manager making too much of a kickback (read Bonus) to care?

Seems very dodgy in this environment that lines of credit are extended so easily, even when Mum & Dad sign over the house as security. Some questions need to be asked of the CTC/bank relationship.

[Dreamshiner]

You've pissed and moaned at my CC for a few posts so what would you do? What do you know about industrial dispute law that would make it legal for BALPA to do something?

There is no pre-requisite as far as I'm aware that if you post a question or stimulate a debate you have to offer a solution to the point raised or have a qualification/experience in the subject matter.

If I was a BBC journalist in Helmand reporting on Op Mushtarak I would hope the watching public wouldn't expect me to provide alternative military attack, nation building masterplan and an exist strategy for UK forces after I delivered my report. Why should it be the case on here? Maybe its question would be better asked to the EZY CC than a PPRuNe thread starter.



I suppose the crux of this is dreams and reality. A fair majority of pilots would have pursued this career to fulfil a childhood dream. Sometimes romance and perception overrule reality, kudos and logic. As a result too many have been willing to sign on the dotted line but sacrifice long term T&C's. However how many people think of that on day one? I would argue it more like ....... "I got a job ...... yessssssss"


In the economic climate of the past 2 years, the slightest wiff of any flying job for a newly qualified pilot has generally had a caveat attached.

Apportion blame to the student, but how much exactly? The P2F umbrella has a number of contributors. The schools sell their tie-ins with airlines as a marketing tool to increase student numbers and some airlines will exploit the desire to fly. I would argue that the collusion between schools and airline followed by putting contracts such as this on the table is more to blame than a 13 month warrior who has been fed a fairytale in the current economic and recruitment climate.

However when recruitment dried up, redundancies happened and the pool of CPL/IR holders swelled there has been no change in strategy, marketing or responsibility of care offered.

If you were to go to the owners/founders/CP's of CTC, Oxford, Cabair, etc. and ask how and when they got into aviation 20-40 years ago. I'd then ask them to walk a mile in the shoes of their most recent applicant.

[orangedriver]

bluepilot summed it up nicely.

That's how it should be dealt with. Problem is - Balpa never worked that way, not in easyJet anyway. Always (in my opinion I should add) too careful, too vague in outlining their goals and how to get there and more importantly - where to draw the line - making the members uncertain, insecure and left with a feeling of lack of leadership leading to weak support for any sort of decisive action.
Pilots paid for by easyJet plc, either directly employed, via agencies, cadet schemes etc etc should enjoy the same rights to sick pay, pension contributions, be able to bid for bases when available, HAVE a fixed base to start with (!!!), be paid through a pay scale agreed to between Balpa and the company, that eventually lead to the same pay as "everyone else in the company. If its agreed to use seasonal/temporary pilots they should be used for a maximum of x months and make up a maximum of x % of the entire workforce (3-5% ?). If more crew is needed for longer time then agreed as "temporary" then the temporary crew has to be offered a full time contract on the standard T&Cs.

This has to be the goal and with the right leadership and clear communication I think is could be achieved.

[Man Flex]

Further to my last post; the experience levels withn easyJet are now suffering and it is something the CAA are concerned about. Hence the invitation to "experienced" pilots made redundant from Thomas Cook, Thomson and BMI. Apparently easyJet require about eighty pilots to redraw the balance offering them the same pay-by-the hour contract but there hasn't been too many takers so far.

It's going to be an interesting summer at easyJet but in the meantime could the tide be turning?

[Orvil]

Favete Linguis,
I saw your comments regarding "Bankruptcy", I think your friends at HSBC may be influenced by company policy rather than what the actual law is.

A creditor through the official reciever has 12 months from the date of Bankruptcy to make a claim on the debtors assets or future income. After the 12 months its finished and then its written off. In fact the Babk write it off against their TAX (Enterprise Act 2001 ?, if I'm right). What a lot of creditors do is wait and then send a menacing letter out through a debt collectors agency (usually owned by them). This is illegal !

There is another rule where if a debtor has "disappeared" they have 6 years to find them and then get their money. After the 6 year rule, they will try to get their money by using debt collectors but they have no legal right to collect the money.

All in all, after 12 months, its written off ( no matter what the bank/debt collectors letter may say). It just messes your credit rating for 6 years.
If anybody is reading this and getting such letters, inform your Official Receiver!
Hope thats cleared everything up :}

[BIGBAD]

When i was initially given my at risk letter from bmi I was scratching around applying for any flying job. Amongst other things I applied to CTC and PARC for this easyjet thing.

I was shocked by the t & c's but it was the only thing for a 'bus rated pilot in the UK. Parc were offering £67 per block hour, then it all went quiet from them and I was contacted by CTC who then offered £52 per block hour !!!!!

I decided I would rather walk over hot coals and eat from a camels arsehole - which is what I have decided to do - so I'm heading out to one of the middle east carriers. Something which I never wanted to do, but would rather do that than work for easyjet under these t and c's.

Funny old thing, I was recently re-contacted by PARC and CTC just to see if I was still interested in this - I graciously said thanks but no thanks ! looks like a lot of my colleagues from bmi would rather leave the UK than take this contract !!! I suspect the same is true of Thomson guys !!!!!

Thanks for the offer but I'm not sitting at home waiting for a call for the odd flight because somebody has phoned in sick and Stelios needs to get joe public down to Malaga for their holiday...........

I'D RATHER LEAVE THE UK THAN DO THIS

[Speevy]

decided I would rather walk over hot coals and eat from a camels arsehole - which is what I have decided to do - so I'm heading out to one of the middle east carriers. Something which I never wanted to do, but would rather do that than work for easyjet under these t and c's.

Well done!

If we all acted this way, our profession would have much better terms and conditions..

Speevy

[lurkio]

BIGBAD, may I applaude your courage and resolve in sticking to your standards. I hope you and your colleagues soon find something back in the UK (if you want to come back) as soon as possible. As Speevy said if more people showed similar courage then maybe we will see this blight off sooner rather than later and pilot Ts&Cs in general will be up there where they should be.
Best of luck.

[Firestorm]

Good luck Big Bad. I may well try to follow you. I have been unable to get onto the CTC thing because I have the wrong sort of 737 experience. I think that their terms and conditions are appalling, and I cannot see why anyone would think it a good idea. But I am sure some will.

[Tyke]

For the record, TCX are not making any pilot redundancies. On the contrary, they are re-employing all cadets from last year plus taking on experienced F'O's on fixed term contracts. Not ideal, but the terms will be a lot better than EasyJet. It may be of interest also, that the TCX CC have persuaded management not to offer 'pay to fly' contracts any more. A 'proper' cadet scheme is to be announced soon albeit a cost sharing venture between the company and the student.

[r1flyguy35]

Companies employing cheap labour - been happening for years

Little johnny had his licence paid for by his daddy, never had a job before as was too young until he went through training, now gets £1700 a month, he must be on cloud nine, literally!!!!
My first job when i left school in '91 was £100/week.

For those who have stumped up the cash themselves, I feel for you.

Ezyjet & Rynair, low cost carriers, low pay = high profits, simple maths.

Good luck to those hard workers amongst us seeking employment :)

[Microburst2002]

I haven't read the 3 pages of post, but I read many of them.

Most of you, fellows, seem to miss the point. It is not a moral debate.

It is a simple question:

ARE YOU EZY PILOTS (the "normal" ones) GOING TO DEFEND YOUR POSITIONS AND YOUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS OR NOT"

or you think that these programs are not affecting your T&Cs?

Who cares about good and evil? Care about your jobs and your future!

If a trade union does not start a total war after such attack from its company, that trade union is a joke. The executives must be laughing till they wet their pants. It's unbelievable...

[al446]

What can they do???? Lobby to scrap the 'Pay-to-Fly' abuse for starters.

Perhaps you would like to explain exactly how that change to the law would work and be ring fenced to protect only pilots without being punative to other sectors of the economy.

Flight schools are like any other training facility and they are not alone in using commercial partners in providing industrial experience to their trainees.

Please discuss.

[luvly jubbly]

Being experienced and out of work (although I have secured part time work), I have noticed a change to airlines recruiting minima. Today, most jobs are asking for ATPL + TR + 500hrs on type + 2000hrs TTetc (The goalposts are always moving away from whet you can afford to pay.)
What this means is if you are willing to borrow the cash and take the gamble, you really have to hope that you can secure a full time job with that airline, because nobody else will touch you until you have 2 or 3 years flying experience.....

I think we are just about to witness, for the first time, a massive amount of wannabes or low timers having to declare bankrupcy to survive. For most this would be the end of the dream. And yet there are endless queues still remortgaging and borrowing way beyond their means because "It won't happen to me...":ugh: or "There will be a pilot shortage":ugh: or "By the time I'm trained the airlines will be hiring again":ugh: etc

Just read the threads in http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/

It's beyond belief that so many are still coming through.

Eventually, there will be a massive public outcry when they realise that ANYONE can sit up front, as long as they (or Daddy) have the readies. As usual in the UK this would end up with a draconian overreaction by the authorities, banning training from all revenue flights. And how much would that cost the airlines in legitimate training??

Just a few thoughts on the matter. If you disagree, I don't really care!

LJ

PS for those wannabes who think it's easy to pay large sums back, after gaining ATPL in 2001, I have 5000hrs TT, 3500hrs jet time and I still owe £30K in training costs.....:}

[DADDY-OH!]

al446

Laws CAN be amended & changed ESPECIALLY if there is a safety concern. THAT is one of the founding, fundamental reasons why Unions were created.

A previous poster has highlighted that the CAA isn't happy with current experience levels & I don't for one minute think their concerns apply just to EZY. And you can understand why, when...

...there are increasing numbers of young men & women who are ,for the main, relatively in-experienced in their roles which subject them to demanding working conditions in a hazardous, often fatiguing job, who are constantly coming to work carrying massive financial burdens coupled with NO job security, in addition to everything else that encompasses this most stressful of jobs. As for your patronising remarks concerning why should pilot's be treated any differently, I'll not take the bait, however why MUST pilot's be subject to 'special' employment terms & conditions?

BECAUSE THEY ARE THE LAST LINE OF DEFENCE STOPPING MILLIONS OF AIR TRAVELLERS EVERYDAY BECOMING ACCIDENT STATISTICS IN ALL WEATHERS, DAY & NIGHT, 365 DAYS OF THE YEAR ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Such patronizing posts could only come from someone who is not a pilot but one of a growing number of pilot-haters. I think you must be either airline groundstaff, airline office staff, atc, security or engineer. All are vital disciplines that are essential to getting aircraft ready for flight.

But only one team can sign to accept the responsibility for getting that aircraft,crew & pax to where it's supposed to be going safely.

Only one team can through experience, training & competency, deal with plethora of potential problems, dilemmas & scenarios that stop a routine flight ending up in a smouldering mess plastered all over the news bulletins.

Only one team will most likely NOT be at the subsequent accident investigation should an catastrophic & fatal incident occur. In this case, the ground & office staff will get other jobs, negligent engineers may be prosecuted & subject to a custodial sentence, yet free to practice on another part of the planet.

Only one teams' family & loved ones MAY have to use any compensation or 'Death in Service' benefits to pay off burdening loans to unscrupulous banks in deals brokered by people who have no respect WHATSOEVER for the one team, ultimately responsible for the safe passage of the very people who pay everyone's wages- The Customers.

That 'one team' is the Flight Deck, the Pilot's, The arseholes at the pointy end, the miserable demanding letch's, & their over inflated egos & opinions. Whatever your view of the Flight Deck team, your lives & the financial health of an airline is dependant upon their judgement, skills, experience, knowledge & integrity.

Treat them with the respect they deserve & reward them accordingly. Abuse them & take them for granted at your peril.

On a final note, well done to our Kameraden in Luftie!:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[al446]

You are about as wide of the mark as you could be in who I am, perhaps you should look look through my previous posts. I am not gong to going to give a biog here, it's mostly in there.

You mention something about CAA, until CAA says it I won't believe it. Anyone can second guess CAA.

If you read through my posts you will see that I actually WANT your T&Cs to be maintained or improved. And I detest P2F, BRK contracts etc but I asked how do you do this legally? Your reply vented your spleen but would do nothing in progressing an argument.

[Wildpilot]

Daddy-OH


That was Oscar winning stuff but little over the top don't you think. At the end of the day pilots are just another job and as much as we would like to think we are the most vital part of any aviation organisation well its just not true. Could you be replaced, yes for the most part by the aircraft its self which with guidance from you does the majority of the flying, well that's how the management see it.

The industry is going down hill and for a number of reasons but throughout so many different post we will always get the armature dramatics of how incredibly important we are but at the end of the day we like to fly so over time we as pilots have allowed the industry to take advantage of this.

I wish it was differant but its the truth in all sectors.

[DADDY-OH!]

al446

Well may I suggest you try offering options, suggestions & alternatives to how we can fight P2F & enlighten those who seek such a path, instead of picking through other people's posts. I haven't read through any of your previous posts because I don't micro-examine what people wrote days or weeks ago. If you are passionate about ending P2F then help find a solution & refrain from questioning at every turn, those who want to try. By the way, my previous post wasn't spleen venting- It's just the findings, observations & opinions of someone who has been in this industry for the last 24 years.

Wildpilot.

'Oscar-winning stuff'? Nope just the thoughts & feelings of someone who has been in airlines from charter to scheduled long haul to Low Cost & knows exactly how 'important' pilots are & how 'unimportant' pilots are deemed, but if we don't start to make a stand, where will it end? You may not be an airline pilot- that's your choice.

How many careers in industries start off with someone having to pay over £100k for the joy of doing a job they love?

How many careers in industries are there when someone has the responsibility of hundreds of lives every day?

I decided to be a pilot because I wanted to fly, loved aeroplanes & wanted to travel & see the world. Don't get me wrong, I still love the job & go to work with a smile on my face, but when I come to retire on a pittance of a pension & no savings because I've been too poorly paid to save & spent half of my career paying off training debts, those days of smiles while driving to work aren't going to pay my bills are they? You are a bush pilot & I'm happy for you. I was a bush pilot too when I first started out in my career over 20 years ago & enjoyed it but knew my dream was airliners. As for you're inferrence that the aeroplane flies itself, well that may be but we don't get paid for watching what it does, we get paid for taking over when it doesn't.

Enough said.
:ok:

[clanger32]

If you want to question what can be done to stop this, then here's a suggestion. IT contractors have been plagued for about 10 years now by IR35. IR35 essentially states that if you are set up to run as a company or sole trader but you only supply your services to one client, then you are considered what HMRC terms "a deemed employee".

If you are in this category then you are liable for all the standard PAYE terms and conditions applicable...and hence your own limited company must pay you as such (drastically reducing your income - hence the IT contractors chagrin). Moreover, the - if I can term is such - "deemed employER" is ALSO liable for the company funded parts of this, such as NI contributions etc.

In the case of these latest offerings from Ezy and BRK - and freely stating that I do not know the terms of the deal and suspect that no company using this route would have been so dumb as to not check it out - it is absolutley clear that the "contractor" is a deemed employee.

If Balpa put their hand in the pants and find their nuts, they can pursue the legal point that these pilots are deemed employees. Succeeding in this would then put the employing airline in the position of having to pay backdated contributions to HMRC and quite probably a tasty little fine. I rather suspect that this would stop it dead.

Food for thought though...

[clanger32]

If you want to question what can be done to stop this, then here's a suggestion. IT contractors have been plagued for about 10 years now by IR35. IR35 essentially states that if you are set up to run as a company or sole trader but you only supply your services to one client, then you are considered what HMRC terms "a deemed employee".

If you are in this category then you are liable for all the standard PAYE terms and conditions applicable...and hence your own limited company must pay you as such (drastically reducing your income - hence the IT contractors chagrin). Moreover, the - if I can term is such - "deemed employER" is ALSO liable for the company funded parts of this, such as NI contributions etc.

In the case of these latest offerings from Ezy and BRK - and freely stating that I do not know the terms of the deal and suspect that no company using this route would have been so dumb as to not check it out - it is absolutley clear that the "contractor" is a deemed employee.

If Balpa put their hand in the pants and find their nuts, they can pursue the legal point that these pilots are deemed employees. Succeeding in this would then put the employing airline in the position of having to pay backdated contributions to HMRC and quite probably a tasty little fine. I rather suspect that this would stop it dead.

Food for thought though...

[Firestorm]

Clanger. The flexy crew contract is through a different company effectively acting as an agency (albeit with only one customer company at the moment). I don't know if that makes a difference. I know that if you are employed by that company you are not self employed because of the level of risk in a legal sense as a pilot, and because HMRC has rules about self employed people working for only one contract.

I can't imagine why anyone would get involved in this scheme. It completely favours the employer, and Easy Jet, and confers next to no security on the pilot in terms of levels of income, and so on. I hope that enough people have the sense to refuse it, and that it falls flat on it's face.

[BIGBAD]

luvy jubbly
Eventually, there will be a massive public outcry when they realise that ANYONE can sit up front, as long as they (or Daddy) have the readies.

you would hope wouldn't you but people really care about cheap flights ! The only thing that will stop this is existing company pilots standing up say enough is enough or an accident...........

I think the easyjet pilots should be worried, it can only ever have a negative impact on their tand c's, prompotion prospects etc..........

[clanger32]

Firestorm,
There may or may not be some technicality due to the nature of the job, but certainly you could make a very very compelling argument that in everything other than name these pilots will ONLY be working for one company. Therefore they would definitely be deemed employees....that's the angle I'd pursue if I were Balpa. However, as I have previously noted, Balpa doesn't actually appear to "be" anything more than a disparate collection of CCs that represent one company only....hence the lack of representation for student pilots, newbies and smaller companies.

The fact they're employed by an agency makes absolutely no difference - or doesn't at least in IT contracting...the net result is you have one person providing services to one company = deemed employee...

[DFC]

The important issues in this case were highlighted in the first posts;

Established Easy pilots know that there is a limited amount of money to pay salaries and therefore to ensure that they continue to receive their well established terms and conditions they are happy thast a scheme is in place that is not going to overstretch that limited resource especially when times are hard and thereby are only too happy to see a system in place where new entrants remove as little as possible from that limited amount of money.

It's called "I'm all right Jack". and as posted early in the debate they turn their backs on or give a cold shoulder to the new entrants - not because they really dislike the way they entered the industry - it has been the practice for decades (how many of us remember Hamble closing) but because they are embarrased by the fact that it is clear to the world that they are maintaining tyheir terms and conditions in difficult times thanks to the fact that new entrants cost the company less.

There is nothing different from other industries - were agency work has become the norm or even the aviation industry - go ask a NATS ATC what happened to the new entrant terms and conditions in the past 20 years and you will have the exact same picture - new entrant Ts and Cs drastically reduced while established ATC's get increases (clearly paid for by ther new entrants)

One does not need a legal basis to see what is happening - just the willingness to seek change.

[Microburst2002]

Clanger32 has it:

No matter how many "legal engineering" is made by means of contracts, agencies, etc... A group of good lawyers can show to any judge or jury that these pilots are actually RYR or EZY pilots, that they are "deemed workers" or whatever the term is. It is not so difficult. Against legal engineering, you can use good lawyers. BALPA should coordinate such movement and put an end to this amazing cut in worker rights. It is a trade union, isn't it?

Imagine that RYR has to pay you all the vacations and other things they did not pay to you in the last years. It is a lot of money. Your money! which was stolen from you by means of legal engineering.

They are fu*ing us with clever and complex contracts? OK, then let's defend with lawyers. It is the only way. Anything else is like trying to kill an armoured samurai with your bare hands.

[Man Flex]

DFC,

because they are embarrased by the fact that it is clear to the world that they are maintaining tyheir terms and conditions in difficult times thanks to the fact that new entrants cost the company less.


How completely wrong.

easyJet has once again made a profit despite the management's best efforts to prevent this by applying appallingly bad judgement to the fuel hedging policy.

Permanent positions are not under threat and neither are their terms and conditions.

Any financial benefit that comes from these flexi-crew contracts goes straight into the management fund for bonuses.

The vast majority of senior pilots are greatly concerned about this turn of events and are emploring Balpa to come up with a solution.

I am disgusted that you believe that we would happily accept these aspirational young men and women on lesser terms and conditions to improve our own lives.

We are not management. :=

[Firestorm]

Clanger I agree. I don't think there is much difference whether the employer is Easy Jet or a third party agency. They have the same responsibilities.

Having had a conversation by e-mail with Flexy Crew at CTC over the last couple of days we have agreed that we will not be entering into any mutual exchange of services and money! Primarily because I am too experienced, and on the wrong sort of 737. Although having seen the T&Cs first hand I couldn't entertain it as a good idea.

I would be delighted to hear of anyone who has a good season with this scheme at the end of the summer. Good luck most sincerely to anyone who goes down this route.

[EGCC4284]

easyJet are asking CTC to provide pilots to fly easyJet aircraft for a maximum of £23,000 a year, and that’s if they do 900 hours a year. They are also asking these new pilots to sign a 3 year contract with penalties if they want to drop our before the 3 years is up. Please someone tell me if I am wrong.

So again, a message to easyJet pilots. Your management are taking the piss out of you, me and every pilot in the UK.

I am many others on the outside can not believe that you are not kicking off about this.

My problem is not that its through CTC or Parc, but that you lot seem to think that “I’m alright Jack” is going to make things any better. Its not.

I and many others can’t believe that the easyJet CC with your support are not doing something about this.

Give it another 2-3 years, and it will be too late then. When you have near to 500 pilots in your company on this scheme from around the world, then you won’t be able to do anything about it.
Then you have a 1000 and then those FO’s who are on a normal wage now will soon realise that you are an endangered species that’s cost more than others doing the same job as you. It in my last career.

The next thing that is going to happen is DEC and then possibly summer only Captains

Its simple, you do your time, get your job and get paid the same as everyone else on year 1 in that job. No more, no less.

Don’t blame these cadets for it. When they started their journey over 15 months ago, CTC had a great record of getting them positions. They are now in a situation of do I or don’t I.

Let me ask you all this. If easyJet are taking these cadets on at a max of £23,000 a year, do they or don’t they need pilots. Why are they doing this. My thoughts are only that they are using the situation in preparation for driving down your T&C’s.

Its a joke and anyone who says its their fault, well sorry mate, but you are as much to blame if you have that attitude. The "I'm alright Jack" just sums up what idiots you are

Big Bad, I take my hat off to you.

[Dreamshiner]

Maybe Jim McAuslan would like to publish open letters he has sent under the BALPA banner to CTC in the past couple of years so we can see how robust he has been.

[Harry Shyters]

In some airlines this would be a matter for a strike ballot - nothing less. As sure as night follows day, the terms of the contracts the permanent easyjet pilots enjoy(?) will be attacked. Once turnover starts to increase, where do you think the replacement pilots will come from? I'll bet they aren't TRSS F/Os let alone DE F/Os.

A poster several posts ago said that the minimum requirements seem to always keep pace with a level slightly above the hours and experience you as an individual have. Sods law and the way it is folks. As an experienced TOM pilot on the market and looking for employment in UK or Europe the vast majority of recruitment is for people without experience. I find myself as shut out as when I started out. There is nothing good that can come of these schemes however they are dressed up. The CTC (or ATP) scheme initially was a good way of getting into the RHS but it started the rot in the mainstream airlines and we find ourselves 14 years later in this position.

I'm off to the ME instead. I would have liked to try for easyjet but I'm not such an opportunity for exploitation and profit. You only have to see the other thread about how the experienced pilots are being treated if recruited for a summer of possible toil with sleazy and that's a piss take too. :=
I'm not personally rated to fly with a table but I'd be giving it a wide berth if I were.

So Easyjet pilots - where are your balls? :E

HS

[Microburst2002]

It doesn't take balls to defend yourself.

All it takes is FEAR.

EZY pilots must be the bravest of all pilots (bigger BALLS). Because it is clear that they are FEARLESS.

Very good point!

In Europe, you can't get a gob if you are experienced. Isn't it amazing? You have to be inexperienced! (and be ready to spend a lot of money and then sign a ****ty contract).

If they did the same program in BA, or other traditional airline, strike would occur inmediately. Why are EZY seniors different? I can't explain...

In the next 10 years we are to see even more amazing things. But none of them will be "the pilot shortage". Who the hell invented such thing? He has realyl screwed us!

the TSUNAMI will reach all levels, up to the Everest. Non type rated experienced pilots (already drowned) junior FOs (drowned), senior FOs (the water already at the neck level), captains (don't you think your feet are wet?), major or traditional airline FOs (dry, so far) and same airline captains (unless those who retire just before).


How nice!
:D:D:D:D:D

[Microburst2002]

Why are you imploring BALPA?

You are BALPA. Your move.

[gyni]

OK Microburst - let's pretend for a minute that you are a SFO in easyJet who pays his percentage every month to BALPA. YOU are BALPA so what is it that you would do?

[Harry Shyters]

You direct your question at Microburst but let me chip in a bit more. :E

I'd be onto my BALPA reps and be over them like a rash wanting to know what the score was and what they were doing about it. :hmm:

I think that using the TOM example, it would be fair to say that the BALPA reps were squeezed from both ends during the negotiations about the pilot surplus at TOM. I was one of many affected who were regularly on the phone to the reps. I have no idea how much traffic is being generated on Easyjet's BALPA forum or any company bulletin board which may exist, but in the TOM case the exchanges on the BALPA site's main pilot surplus thread alone are over 40 pages long and it spawned many other multipage threads.
:ouch:

It has been very fiercely debated even on the company BB and has got very heated at times. Either the easyjet peeps are really good at keeping any turmoil under wraps or there is little turmoil. Think I know which one applies here. :hmm:

Gyni, you're right to ask what would YOU do if YOU were an easyjet SFO. That's why EGCC4284 is also asking the question and he doesn't seem to be getting much back. It makes his point rather elegantly don't you think? :ok:
Your rhetorical tricks with Microburst, because you think that MB wouldn't actually put their money where their mouth is, illustrates that you don't really understand why the easyjet pilots should be getting far more fired up about this. Either that or you do and you think it's a done deal.

Before too long the easy pilots will be watching the horses ringpiece disappear over the horizon and realise they've left things far too late. If they think they can just move on when things pick up - well if 2 of the largest recruiters aren't taking experienced pilots now when there are shed loads of them on the market, what's the industry, as a whole, going to be doing recruitment-wise when it all picks up. There'll be nowhere to go - unless you're fresh out of flying school with credit to burn. :}

The US is legislating to stop this, bit of a blunt instrument IMHO, when better oversight and sharper regulatory teeth would have sufficed. Maybe the regulator needs to get some balls too. :oh::mad:

HS

[Doug the Head]

If they did the same program in BA, or other traditional airline, strike would occur inmediately. Why are EZY seniors different? I can't explain...Hint: search through my posts of the last couple of years (!) and you will see a few reasons!

As for BALPA, I think Orangedriver summed it up quite nicely in this (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/406558-easyjet-pilots-your-management-taking-piss-now-3.html#post5530084) post: Problem is - Balpa never worked that way, not in easyJet anyway. Always (in my opinion I should add) too careful, too vague in outlining their goals and how to get there and more importantly - where to draw the line - making the members uncertain, insecure and left with a feeling of lack of leadership leading to weak support for any sort of decisive action.

BTW, where is NormanSF these days...? :suspect:

[gyni]

Harry

Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm alone amongst my colleagues in understanding that we do need to be fired up about this and the consequences that it will bring. However, when you are constantly told that we can't really do anything about it and that 'meetings are going on behind the scenes' when you do email or speak to the cc, then what more are we supposed to do on a personal level?

[EGCC4284]

Cmon-PullUP

EGCC, you sound like you have some really personal issues with ezy, so why do you show any interest in the company at all? (did you get rejected?)- You also clearly show that you know sod all about what is actually going on inside the company, so maybe you should do a little more research before you go on crusades again?

Sounds like I have an issue with ezy. Yes I do. The issue I have is they are taking the piss out of you, me and any other professional pilot in the UK

Why do I show an interest. Because what is about to happen in easyJet in the near future affects me, you and everyone in the pilot world. Your T&C’s are being eroded because of what they are doing now. Offering 3 year contract with a max potential earning of £23,000 a year before tax and you are bonded in a sort of way.

Did I get rejected. Yes I did about 4 years ago when I only had 300 hours on light aircraft, but I don't hold grudges. I would apply right now, are you recruiting, where can I apply, how much would I be on. I have 2000 hours 1700 on 737NG. Where can I apply, please tell me. I AM about to be made redundant from Thomson. Please feel free to let me know where I can apply. Oh by the way, will I get what your FO’s get or would I be offered £23,000 a year. Oh forgot, I don’t have an airbus rating, will I have to buy that first at my own expense or will they do that for me, then bond me like the good old days. Answers on a postcard please.

I know sod all about what is actually going on inside the company. I am very tempted to copy and paste here an e-mail I got from a cadet friend from CTC about what he has been offered, but as it was his e-mail to me, I thought better of it. By the way, I have many friends who work for you, but they were lucky in that they got into your company 3+ years ago, so are not forced into accepting this crap now on offer. I know many with your company and they are great blokes.

Do more research before you go on a crusade? Sorry mate, just making you aware that many on the outside are watching in disbelief regarding what is going on now at easyJet. It really hit me a month ago when a couple of wannabe friends said to me that Ryanair was now better job to buy into than easyJet.

Trust me, if I could apply to easyJet, I would if they offered the wage they should for year 1 FO’s

BALPA ARE trying to help the cadets, but HOW are they expected to do much, when the cadets CONTINUE to accept being raped? - They really need to stand up for themselves.

They really need to stand up for themselves, well that says a lot about you. I'm alright Jack springs to mind

All I am asking is this, what are you the pilot workforce asking your CC regarding this. That crap answer of we can't do anything because they are from CTC does not stick.

I like others will have to go to the Middle East and fly a 777, not where I want to live, but its a job and a good one at that

Look forward to more responces from you LOL

I imagine NSF is reading this and I can imagine you think like we do. I don't think bad of you for not commenting on this thread.

Gaz, Black Rabbit just for you

[joe two]

It is NOT about acceptance of contracts by cadets.

These contracts should have NEVER BEEN OFFERED.

and yes , BALPA should be more pro-active in preventing fake pilot contracts being offered.

[EGCC4284]

My God, a sencible post

Joe, your the man LOL

[sidtheesexist]

EGCC and others - forgive me if this is a question that you've already answered and i've not spotted it, BUT - are you suggesting that the 'bright young things'(???) who continue to sign on the dotted line are in no way partly responsible for the continuation of these exploitative deals?

[Cmon-PullUP]

EGCC, you will see that my statement re BALPA was corrected BEFORE your reply, just to put that into order :hmm:

- And then i can just add that with your repeated statements that we are all idiots in Easyjet, then our HR dept did a good job by not taking you in. - I wish they would give your colleagues a contract though, one like the one they used to offer outside of CTC.

Good luck on the 777. It's truly a nice airplane :ok:

[EGCC4284]

Cmon-PullUP

Can you point me to where I say you are idiots, and I will check if I wrongly used it to label all easyJet pilots. That was not the intention and applogise if I did. Please direct me and I may edit that one. But what I will say is this. If you think that having the attitude of “I’m alright Jack” that this problem will not develop, then yes those that think that are idiots. Just for the record, I don’t think all easyJet pilots are idiots, just the ones with the I’m alright Jack Attitude.

As for your HR doing a good job, do you mean by not employing me? Please feel free to explain that one, what is it you saying? Are you saying I am not capable or would not fit in? Please elaborate. Just for the record, I did not do CTC. I did not buy my way into a job. I am leaving Thomson with 2 years of my bond left and they are wiping the slate clean as I am being made redundant. Sounds to me I was lucky to be employed by a company that at the time I was recruited, did not want to shaft me or the others that started with them in the last 5 years. Yes, your HR are certainly doing a good aren’t they.

777, yes a nice plane, can’t wait.

sidtheesexist

I was not saying that the bright young things were not to partly blame at all. But look at it from their point of view. They sign on the dotted line 2-3 years ago, go the full hog thinking that they will end up in a good job and then they are offered nothing or this. Do they say no and not get a type rating, 1500 hours and let everyone else pass them, or do they take it to get the experience in the hope the market will change enabling them to be able to move on. The interesting thing will be that once this becomes common knowledge, who will want to sign on the dotted line with CTC for a full time mega buck course when the end product is £70,000+ debt with interest to be offered a £23,000 job with some sort of a clause in the contract that they will be penalised if they leave before 3 years.

The question I have asked time and time again but don’t seem to be getting an answer to is this. Are the easyJet CC being approached by any easyJet pilots complaining about what is happening. Are you going to be straw poled on the feeling of your pilot workforce.

One last time, I and many many others on the outside cannot believe you lot are not going ape. At least Monarch pilots kicked off about their little bit of crap and stood together. You may have read about that in the BALAP mag.

I know our CC are shaking their heads in disbelief at what is happening at your place.


NSF, you still alive LOL

[EGCC4284]

Cmon-PullUP

What you doing on Sunday

Would you like to come for Sunday Roast

EGCC4284

[djfingerscrossed]

As a 'cadet' it's nice to see that current pilots, regardless of employer, are talking about this.

For the guys asking cadets to reject the deal:

Most are somehow finding the required up front cash, amazing in itself, for the new deals and are doing so as they have nothing else to go for. Let us be frank. I think the new deal stinks. As a group we might have had some negotiating power given the large numbers involved however the stance taken by HSBC leaves most with little to no options. With the growing number of people accepting the deal we are losing that ability.
Take the job on a pittance in the knowledge that a) you're ultimately degrading terms and conditions for everyone b) you're going to be scraping by and only just at that c) you have no other choice.
The protection of bankruptcy may be needed for some if they take the deal. It almost certainly will be needed if they don't.
The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is all well and good sitting in the ivory tower. The guys are just trying to keep their credit ratings and survive. Significantly most of the current guys are all on unsecured finance. Can you imagine the sheer terror that the others who needed security are feeling, given that as each day rolls by and that first payment is due, so the bank(s) inch ever closer to their front door.

Instead of everyone just complaining and moaning, how about suggesting a way forward?

Reasons for the problems:
Cadets already in the program never anticipated the worst. Perhaps their own fault some will say.
Some did and have other careers to go to. These are an unbelievably small minority and are labeled as negative and pessimistic.
HSBC are not being flexible and will not grant extensions to the finance even in the knowledge that they are, potentially, foreclosing on revenues up to six figures. This could possibly be more if they did offer extensions and compound interest was allowed to increase further still.
With HSBC being unmoving and quite hostile, again understandable given the financial climate we are in, people have no other choice. Entry graduate jobs are massively over subscribed to thanks to a useless Labour government with a massive reduction in the value of a degree.
Core skills such as medicine, engineering, teaching etc are simply not accessible without experience and most have forgone this to take up places on the CTC course.
Oxford cadets have already demonstrated, similar to the ATP and Eaglejet brigade, that they are more than willing to throw large sums of cash at this. I have no doubt that if CTC seniors were to resist the deal completely that the likes of OAA would gladly take over. Imagine all those lovely new placement numbers they could put in their glossy brochure.
Nobody else is recruiting low hour fATPL pilots and can we please stop harping on about FI jobs. There aren't any going either.

Possible Route(s) to Improvement:
????
Cadets to refuse the new deal. We'd need agreement from OAA cadets that they would do likewise and an agreement from easyJet that they will not re-introduce the ATP program or recruit from similar schemes. Fiendishly difficult to do.
Existing employees to strongly push management into offering standard contracts along the lines of 1 job role, 1 standard of remuneration. Simples. How this is not standard now is beyond me. It'd be cause for a strike at any engineering company for sure. Of course this doesn't bring contracting into it. That is a hellishly difficult subject to handle. Unions hate it and I've taken advantage of it myself in previous job roles.
You could plausibly avoid the contracting subject completely. If there are vacancies then employment has to be on permanent contracts. They could easily be fixed term. CTC deals are three year deals and the uptake recently has been substantial and we know they're still undercrewed. No need for recruitment? Bull:mad:.....

Like I've said in earlier posts. Orange management have played an absolute corker here. Exploiting contractors is a fantastic way around employed crew and they must be well aware of 1) HSBC's beligerent (sp?) new attitude towards CTC cadets 2) Oxfords willingness to usurp CTC and step into the breach.
Divide, laugh, humiliate, conquer and reap the rewards. It sounds like most of us would....

What do I know. I'm edging towards 30 and have experience in a significantly challenging environment with just as tough financial constraints as aviation but because I only have sub 300 hours flying I must be a fool.

[ZBMAN]

Cmon-pullup,

Let's be honest here.

EGCC is right in the sense that most of us in easyJet don't give a toss about these new contracts being offered. Most of the guys I speek to either don't care, don't want to know, or comme up with the same "nobody forced them to sign" crap. Same with the Berlin "issue". All people come up with is the usual "well they enjoyed no tax for a while bla bla". I am ashamed, really ashamed at the apathy demonstrated by a lot of us on these issues.

Most people do not realize that the pay to fly, cadet, flexicrew contracts directly undermines ALL our futures in easyJet. IT DOESN'T ONLY AFFECT THE CADETS BUT ALL OF US!!! This is a direct attack on our futures within easyJet, you and the others must understand that. Don't think these contracts will disapear with upturn - they won't. They are here to stay, if we do nothing to stop them. When the upturn comes, and when countless SFO's ldecide to leave for better jobs,( as all they will we offered for a command will be flexible contract on a german B-scale) then how do you think the company is going to fill the gaps? If you plan on staying with easyjet long term, you may find yourself in the uncomfortable situation of being in a minority. What exactly do you think your negociating power would be in such a position?

The company must be laughing their heads off!! Not only are we letting them screw us over, but also by our inaction we are directly screwing our colleagues outside easyJet. No wonder they are pissed off!

[EGCC4284]

ZBMAN

100 Thomson guys being dumped, 100 BMI guys with Airbus ratings, being dumped, Fly Globespan gone throwing 100 pilots on the dole all looking for work in the uk and easyJet are taking cadets via CTC on £23,000 a year IF you manage to do 900 hours.

Then we read crap like it the cadets fault, we don’t care, it does not effect me, why should we care, bollocks.

Pissed off is an understatement

I worked in my last profession where the original staff were on £26,000 basic and got overtime and a final salary pension. The company offered them a pay rise of about £2000 a year if they gave up union recognition. They tok it. Within 6 months, 2 more members of staff were employed on a basic of £16,000 a year, then 2 more, then 2 more. Eventually, there was 16 members of staff on £16,000 a year and only 8 left on £28,000 a year. The 8 were then given 90 days notice of change in T&C’s or take redundancy which was a good wedge.

So you see, now is the beginning of you getting shafted in the next couple of years.

Do you bring your own food now, do you pay for car parking yet, do you do sims on days off yet. I think you already buy your uniform.

All I keep saying is this. If you line train a cadet for 6 months, then ok, that was on a reduce rate. But when he has done that, give the guy a job on payscale one like everyone else in easyJet got, not an hourly rate of £25 an hour for the first 500 hours then £55 an hour there after.

YOUR MANAGEMENT ARE TAKING THE PISS OUT OF YOU, ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY

Cmon-PullUP

Roast dinner and apple pie with custard. Come on, lets be mates LOL. I am only saying what I and everyone else thinks and wonders what the fck you lot are thinking.

[Man Flex]

I thought long and hard about this but in an attempt to pacify those posters who have criticised the easyJet pilots I am copying from the very latest Balpa newsletter.

As most of you know easyJet has been using newly qualified cadets
from CTC to fill our first officer vacancies over the last 2 years. They
have come from various schemes but essentially all are now
contracted via CTC on their Flexi Crew Contract, via Oxford Aviation
Academy (OAA) on their APP Plus scheme or in the case of a few ex-
BMI pilots via Parc Aviation as contractors. In total there will be
over 200 First Officers who will be contracted for this summer of
which we believe around 100 will be at Gatwick.
There have been changes to the contracts being offered by CTC and
OAA this year, the most significant of which has been the removal
of any guarantee of flying, thus removing any guarantee of
earnings. Because of the financial pressure this has created some
cadets, mainly those not flying for easyJet, have chosen to file for
voluntary bankruptcy. The concern is the financial situation many
cadets are in may result in high levels of stress which could effect
their performance. In addition, as the employers are paying no sick
pay, there is a further concern that some cadets feel pressured into
working whilst unfit in order to maintain their income.
All ePG Local Council’s are extremely concerned about this
situation. As you will have seen, BALPA and the other MA’s are
pursuing this as an industry wide issue and there is clearly some
read across from the US Colgan Air accident report. Whilst the
cadets are not directly employed by easyJet, they are not legally
represented by us as ePG Local Councils. However, we have to work
with them and any impairment in their performance puts our
passengers and ourselves at increased risk. We have conveyed our
concerns to the Company and are formulating a proposal which
could bring the cadets into permanent employment sooner. Trying
to make this proposal work without significant cost is a real
challenge, but one we hope to overcome during the next few
months. In the meantime please understand the situation your
colleagues are in.

[windshear-a-head]

It'll take a smoking orange hole in the ground as the pay-to-pass/fly/work etc SO/FO bins it when the overworked TC misses something.....once the press get hold of that they'll have a field day! :uhoh:

The above post just hammers the fact home....stressed, overworked, un-fit to fly brand new FO with money issues...now just give him a shiny new 319 to fly full of punters...I can see the headlines now. :=

[DiagonalLeg]

Come on folks, why is so much hot air being spouted about who's fault this situation is? What does pinning the blame actually achieve? It's devisive and completely unproductive.

It's equivalent to getting into a fist fight with your wife over who left the gas on while your house burns down around you, rather than calling the fire brigade and at least having a chance to save the house...

Not that I have a ready made battle plan to offer on a plate as some desire. What I do know is that if you can't directly change the situation within the law then you have to at least try some things (again within the law) to level the playing field somewhat.

BALPA needs to do some PR, PR, PR and then some PR on this. It needs to make the issue visible. Get a whip round and buy a bill board outside LGW, take out a full page advert in a red-top. Take the attack back to the management for a change. I can think of a few headlines to go on there...

Most of all, everybody needs to at least try to stand united rather than continually reverting to the default position of tearing lumps out of each other.

[EGCC4284]

Man Flex

Thank you for posting that.

EGCC4284

[Darth Helmet]

Don't like it , don't agree with it but it is the way it is.
Good time to buy a house , you decide it might make you a big profit or you might lose a load of money , it's your choice. Welcome to the world.
No big magic fairy (Balpa) gonna wave their big wand and make it all better.
1000 planes and 10 pilots = Big Money
10 planes and 1000 pilots = No Money
Airlines managers are running a buisiness and not a flying syndicate.
It's all about money , money , money.
I'm a pilot for Easyjet and I don't think I'm alright jack, far from it.

[sidtheesexist]

I tell you what's really starting to hack me off is the way " The I'm allright Jack" criticism/observation is banded around so willingly!! You seem to forget that a lot of us in the ' Ivory Tower' self funded without racking up huge debts based on no security, whilst having a fall back plan should we not realise the dream! There's too much of a blame culture shining through some of these posts for my liking..........I'll get shot down in flames over this post - so what!!!

[Hahn]

If I where "Mr. easyJet" I would offer "Mr. BALPA" a reasonable amount of money to let it all happen and find some comforting words for the members....

[Darth Helmet]

Don't think Mr Easyjet even knows who Mr Balpa is.
Good discounts on Volvos again in this months LOG.

[Caudillo]

If I would work under worse conditions, why should I support the old guys to be more expensive to the company than myself?

Because you're not petty, because it causes no detriment to you and because you are (presumably) a pilot and inclined to side with your colleagues?

The question is why should you not? If their conditions do not cause you to be worse off, why not support them? Or is it best if they're in the gutter alongside everyone else?

[djfingerscrossed]

They are able to do this as they are taking advantage of the very nature of contracting. Pretty much every company under the sun utilises this way of employing people. However there is a stark difference in what we see here. Contractors are normally brought in on much larger increased salaries given that they provide, generally, immediate solutions to difficult problems. Couple this with a lack of sick pay, no holiday allocation etc and you get the idea.

I think every 'cadet' was hoping to accumulate the magic 1500 hours to go and contract elsewhere as soon as possible. The structure of the new deal(s) with a financial bond effectively prohibits that early movement. To be honest I'd be surprised if anyone actually managed to get to the 1500 hour mark given that managements plan must be to share the required hours out over a much bigger flight crew community with most pilots earning per rostered hour on peanuts.

[Doug the Head]

If I where "Mr. easyJet" I would offer "Mr. BALPA" a reasonable amount of money to let it all happen and find some comforting words for the members....:E :suspect:

[Harry Shyters]

DJfingerscrossed
If every cadet is doing as you say and jockeying to get 1500 hrs so they can go contract they basically deserve (without understanding) what they're getting into.

But we'll leave that to one side.

DiagonalLeg
I like the way you make your point about it being fruitless to attribute blame.
But you miss the point. :ugh:
If you were as much in financial poo as they are and you are offered a flying contract - albeit a very bad one - I'd say that not all would take it but a good few would. It's like putting a piece of poisoned meat in front of a hungry dog and telling them not to eat it because it's poisoned. The fact the they are being offered the contract in the first place suggests to me that the easy CC isn't keeping on top of all aspects of the business that affect the pilot workforce - and bringing contractors in with much lower T&Cs has to be one.

In fact the contract is so loaded against the cadet I'd be interested to see if it could be enforced. It's the sort of contract a loan shark would draw up with a "client". :ouch:

Btw Cmon-Pullup -
And then i can just add that with your repeated statements that we are all idiots in Easyjet, then our HR dept did a good job by not taking you in.
More like a narrow escape :}

EGCC, you sound like you have some really personal issues with ezy, so why do you show any interest in the company at all? (did you get rejected?)
You make yourself sound like a complete coq. Why not use the classic ostrich approach? "Oh you've obviously been turned down for our brilliant job and want to ruin it for all the golden (orange) ones". Get your head out of your a@se and look around you. Situational Awareness is the key and you need to look to yours. :ok:


HS

[Mister Geezer]

Interesting to see that on a similar thread, someone has mentioned that they have heard that Monarch may be joining forces with CTC Flexicrew.

Very interesting to see a post from one of the Monarch brethren, saying that hell will freeze over before their CC would allow such a thing to happen!!!

[clanger32]

djfingerscrossed,
You're correct in your assessment of traditional contracting in other industries, but you miss the absolutely fundamental and key point that Could/would/should be attacked, which is that to contract AND BE CLASSED AS A CONTRACTOR BY HMRC you must offer your services - and be able to demonstrate that you are doing so - to more than one company.

If you only ever fly for one airline, then it doesn't matter a hoot - you ARE a deemed employee and your salary should be paid under normal PAYE terms, with the employER facing their costs.

IT contractors (an industry I am VERY closely alligned with currently) face this problem continually.

As stated before, BALPA should be arguing the legal point that anyone on flexicrew is actually a deemed employee, which in turn forces the employer to fund NI and tax contributions. The employER in this case might not be easy directly, but PARC, CTC - but the point remains that they can not operate deemed employees without charging.

[djfingerscrossed]

Clanger - I've faced the same problems as yourself in engineering over several years. There are several umbrella companies who do absolutely nothing but charge you for keeping you on the right side of the IR35 whilst you contract for ONE employer. It's bordering very very closely on legality but there you go.
Most engineering agencies I've gone through have always pointed me in there direction. Shocking? Yes. Legal? Probably not.

Harry - I think most realise the implications however they, and I, would rather be treated like :mad: and paid instead of being treated like :mad: and paid bugger all.

[gyni]

Dj- your last paragraph sums up the whole problem. When management know that that's your attitude then contracts like this WILL be the only ones that are offered! You started training in 2008 thus taking a huge gamble and now expect people like me to fight for your cause. I have and will continue to lobby my cc to do make a stand against these conditions but we need a better attitude than that from you guys.

[ZBMAN]

Gyni,

What you are saying sadly illustrates the state of mind within the company. You and the others are basically saying "why should I help these cadets, no one forced them to sign". What you guys fail to understand is that the introduction of paid by the hour (and pay to fly) contracts are undermining OUR terms. Whether or not the cadets are right to accept these terms is completely beside the point. If we, as a group, cannot see this as a direct attack on our profession, then perhaps we deserve to be called stupid. We are letting the company screw us over, and it is shocking that all we can come up with is "well they knew what they were signing for" .

and when Balpa come up with this:
We have conveyed our
concerns to the Company and are formulating a proposal which
could bring the cadets into permanent employment sooner. Trying
to make this proposal work without significant cost is a real
challenge, but one we hope to overcome during the next few
months.sorry, but I have to shake my head in disbelief. We are seeking a zero cost solution to this, when we should be seeking an end to these kind of employment practices, period! easyJet aircraft, easyJet pilot: that's what I expect Balpa ePG to fight for. Nothing less.

and before anyone asks: yes I have made my position clear to my union rep.

[gyni]

ZBMan- I totally agree with you!! I'm extremely disappointed in the constant lack of fight amongst us and the lack of leadership from the CC! I'm making the point that EVERYBODY has to do their bit both outside and inside the company! As I said earlier, I have sent emails, spoken to colleagues- what else can I do?!

[djfingerscrossed]

gyni - You don't need to fight for my cause. If it's offered to me I'll be rejecting the deal in it's current state. The point you miss is that I have something else I can do for work AND it will give me the means to repay my loan. Most don't. It is their cause you should fight for as they have nothing else they can do.

Actually on reflection I think you might have misinterpreted my last. I was replying to Harry in that the guys were looking to get 1500 and then grab other positions that paid better even if they were the usual, asian, me, treat us like crap but pay half decent. What I was NOT saying is that we would prefer to take the easy contracts over other jobs.

[gyni]

Dj- understood! It's very easy to misinterpret opinions on an anonymous Internet forum eh?!

[djfingerscrossed]

Gyni - no problem. I really should have worded my reply to Harry a little better.

I hope you can see the problem though. A lot of these guys are all very intelligent, most put me to shame, and have excellent degrees. I have absolutely no doubt they'd all do very well in their degree related industries. The problem they face is that massive numbers of people are degree educated and only core industries ask for specific degrees. Even most of these are over subscribed to. Entry level grad jobs might just let them scrape by if they could live at home with parents or house share with fellow cadets. No experience means they can't chase the better paid vacancies and they don't have the hours to apply for any other airline positions. Couple this with the bank playing hardball and you can begin to see how futile it can seem.

No requirement here for any smart arses to pipe up saying they can't be that clever as they got themselves in a financial pickle. In my opinion they've been sold down the river.

We, they, I, whatever, would be very grateful of your support. I can completely empathise with your thoughts and I've been in a similar position before in engineering. No resolution was forthcoming and the union happily got members to sell new entrants out. Reduction in terms and closure of the final salary pension scheme and low and behold with smaller numbers now that is under threat.
What I would say is that the majority, neigh, almost all of the people in the holding lake, tried to reject the deal. It became extremely apparent that easyJet wouldn't offer anything substantial in terms of improvements or concessions and with nothing else available I can't bring myself to criticise them. Rock, hard place.

I only wish everyone had held out a little longer. It was obvious easy needed crew but with the threat of OAA-let's-throw-30k-at-it looming large and HSBC barking for repayments and taking legal action what to do?

[Harry Shyters]

....and that dear djfingerscrossed leads us nicely back to the easyjet CC. We seem to have established now that the Kaydets, whilst culpable in signing, aren't really the root of the problem.

Sometimes a CC has to educate a management team who wish to implement something completely mental but which seemed a good idea when it was dreamt up.

The easy CC shouldn't be looking at this as a cost neutral thing - are they another tier of managers in the company's heirarchy? :ugh: As I read it the statement quoted implies an acceptance of the scheme by the CC - or its inevitability. Are concessions going to have to be made from another area in order to finance the bringing of the cadets into permanent employment sooner? By shortening the time period before permanent employment is offered, more mugs will be encouraged to go for it. Therefore easyjet will have successfully shifted yet more of their training costs and business risk onto their prospective employees. And where one goes, the others will follow. :D :hmm:

This is a direct (and major) attempt to undermine easyjet pilot T&Cs (let alone any collateral damage to conditions elsewhere in the industry). This is cause for teddy to not only be thrown in the corner but thoroughly stamped on as well. Glad to see that unions and management are able to work so well, hand in hand. :ugh:

HS

[Microburst2002]

Yes

It seems they are good friends, doesn't it?

What BALPA has to do is to say "STOP" to this form of hiring, and that's it.
Its mere existence is a torpedo below the floating line. It is deadly, 100%, no doubt. Only the torpedo hasn't hit yet, but either you veer the ship quickly or say good by to your T&Cs.

So why are they so friendly? Are they nuts? Have they been bought?
It is unbelievable what is happening... On the part of EZY senior pilots and BALPA. Did they hire them in the first place because they are masochist?

Or is it that none of them is happy with this, that they hate what is happening, but they just can't make their opinion heard in the higher levels?

[kriskross]

I think the last sentance about sums it up - we make our views known both individually and collectively, but they are ignored by an Ops Director who 'cares nothing for loyalty', and totally ignores any different opinion, that is why we are so short of crews at the moment, and it's only February.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

For those who are affected, why don't you just phone / write a letter to BALPA with your questions asking their opinions and if they'll be getting involved?

If they are the only people who can help, then I sure would have tried them first, instead of typing on Pprune! lol

[FlyingSpanner]

Hi Guys,

I am an engineer who has managed to break into the flying game. I got rated on the A320 and was lucky enough to get some flying with an airline that i worked with during summer season.

I was looking for a more permanent position and had applied to Flixi Crew, however a friend of mine told me about the terms and conditions and I could not afford to take a position like that.

Even being in the RHS is a pay cut for me under normal conditions, I am not bragging but I dont have any debt to repay back I worked hard and paid for everything as I went. However the realities are I have a mortgage which costs 1300 Euro per month, that would be what I could expect to recieve after tax working their max hours.

I simply could not afford to live on fresh air! So I will have to keep looking and waiting for a reasonable paying job while still working as an engineer. Though even the rates for that have gone down over the last 2 years!

As a wise man once said "F*ck Em"

Keep the faith!

Spanner:ok:

[EGCC4284]

1300 Euro per month

So is that how much they value their co-pilots. I am not talking about cadets doing line training here, this is someone who has an Airbus rating and some hours on it. Now do you understand, your management are taking the piss now and you need to do something about it. Not just for yourselves, but for everyone in the industry. If not, the UK will end up like the USA with in the next 5 years.

This thread is nearly 7 days old now.

115 post and viewed 11,145 time. Everyone is watching in disbelief.

A question for anyone in the know, have your CC been bought off???? Please feel free to put me straight on this

Take home pay 1300 Euro per month, that’s what easyJet think the rate should be.

And those few who come out with "they don’t have to do it" are as much to blame as those that do it, so the "alright Jack" lot need to wake up and think about what your job maybe like in 5 years time.

All it needs is for easyJet to take 100 pilots a year from anywhere in the world and within 5 years, you’re screwed.

The time to stop this is not next year, next month or next week, its now if you want to do something about it.

I have to go and work abroad in the Middle East, as are about another 80 Thomson pilots that are being made redundant. What is being offered by CTC and PARC is a slap in the face to us as much as it is to those wanting to get on the ladder and those already employed within easyJet.

Many of us would rather stay here and would be happy to work for you for the going rate, not this prostitution rate

Either easyJet needs pilots or they don’t. If they do, then employ them and give them the rate for the job. Is that too much to ask.

Even being in the RHS is a pay cut for me under normal conditions, I am not bragging but I dont have any debt to repay back I worked hard and paid for everything as I went. However the realities are I have a mortgage which costs 1300 Euro per month, that would be what I could expect to recieve after tax working their max hours.

And this guy does not have a £70,000 plus interest debt. This says it all

They are taking the piss out of YOU, ME AND EVERYONE ELSE

[Microburst2002]

Yes, man

So....?

LOBBY, LOBBY, LOBBY, LOBBY!

What are you waiting for?
Write letters, have meetings, make phone calls.
Nobody will do that in your stead.

Force and Honor!

[Bruce Wayne]

Nobody will do that in your stead.

BALPA havn't.

1300 EU. on max hours.

Frankly, thats worse than f:mad:ing offensive. :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[captplaystation]

I don't understand employment law, and post Maggie T I understand it has its limitations, but. . . . is there no scope here for the permanent employees to take industrial action if the company "employs" (be it through PARC/CTC whoever) someone to do the job at a pittance and thereby in effect make the post unavailable to a more "suitable" i.e. experienced candidate, and quite demonstrably lay down a marker as to where future employees will be graded.
Alternatively is there no clause in your BALPA negotiated "agreement" that prevents someone being employed on lesser terms.
FFS, if there is, give your CC a clout on the lug, and insist they do likewise to BALPA HQ NOW. . before you are totally Donald Ducked (which will happen sooner than you think)
If there is no protection in employment law, or no clause, then play dirty and find another reason to take action, but find a reason now, or there will very soon be nothing left to protect.
Forget all this "cosy free-masonic/we are all professionals together" clap-trap ("zero cost solutions" my @rse ) & fight HARD, fight NOW and fight DIRTY, like they do, whilst there is still a modicum of time & chance left.
Christ, you have BALPA recognition and yet you still let this sh1te, which is as bad or worse than anything Ryanair have imposed on a non-union workforce, continue, nay prolifigate, and then the union-defenders wonder at the result of the BALPA poll on the other thread.
For crying out loud DO SOMETHING ! ! ! :ugh:

[Thad Jarvis]

I do love the way so many on this forum think there is only one issue outstanding in Easyjet at the minute. I'm sure the cadet issue is important but I can absolutely assure you that it is not top of the membership's priority list..maybe sad but nonetheless true. Chances of a membership ballot for strike action over cadets? Zero.
As for the CC taking backhanders from management.. if you had ever met any of them you'd know that is total BS and shame on those that imply it.

[captplaystation]

Thad Jarvis

" can't see the wood for the trees" springs to mind.

If you cannot see the implications of employing a group of pilots on drastically reduced terms (not Cadets, but experienced F/O's via PARC) AND the inevitable consequences for future recruitment, AND thereafter your goodselves, what is it there to be dealt with that is more important ?
This is the thin edge of the wedge, the further up your @ss you allow them to shove it ,the more it will hurt to extract it :eek:

Learn from history, and look where this went in Ryanair. Your lot have a "role model" and appear to be quite determinedly trying to outdo them.
What could be more pressing than stopping this spiral dive to terra firma ? :confused:

WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP ! !

[ZBMAN]

I do love the way so many on this forum think there is only one issue outstanding in Easyjet at the minute. I'm sure the cadet issue is important but I can absolutely assure you that it is not top of the membership's priority list..maybe sad but nonetheless true. Chances of a membership ballot for strike action over cadets? Zero.
As for the CC taking backhanders from management.. if you had ever met any of them you'd know that is total BS and shame on those that imply it.

I see two major, pressing, issues :

1) The Berlin B scale and contract.
2) The Cadet/PTF/PARC contracts.

The rest is quite frankly secondary. I am astonished that more people are bitching about the crew food or the uniform than this. Even the temp commands are less important than this direct attack on our long term futures. Can't you see this?

Now, what progress has been made on these issues (which have been going on for months)? Appart from the search of a zero cost solution?

If this isn't stopped, then it will spread. And then all we'll be offered with a base transfer or a command will be a PARC contract. An if a base closes it will be PARC or the boot.

If we don't do anything NOW we are f***ed.

[FANS]

ZBMAN has summed it up.

You've demonstrated that you can't negotiate anything with this management team, and whilst most pilots are normally against industrial action, it is now the only action.

Q - How much one would day's strike cost EZY?
A - More than their FO savings from this contract nonsense.

This should be justified on safety and a fair wage - and we're talking a fair wage in the context of spending £50k+ post tax to get it.

I really think that this will be like the banks. By the start of 07, everyone thought their lending behaviour was normal to generate shareholder profit and the risks carefully managed. Then several of them crash - the regulator gets blamed, the public want to know why they weren't aware, press have a field day and everyone "expert" pipes up saying they warned of this years ago. Well now's your chance to make a stand and find your backbone as talk is easy.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

These contracts will end soon at EZY but it's not the ineffectual EZY CC who will stop them, it will be BALPA and the CAA.

Eazyjet are breaking quite a few rules regarding these contracts, unfortunately the EZY CC and pilots are too useless to stop it going on.

[Bruce Wayne]

but it's not the ineffectual EZY CC who will stop them, it will be BALPA and the CAA.


CAA wont. They are a regulator and unless there is smoking hole in the ground they wont. Even then, they will only address regulation from a saftey standpoint not employment contracts.

BALPA ? Horse.. Gate.. Bolted...

[captplaystation]

whatdoesthisbuttondo,

What rules are these then ?

I am sure if you can point them out there will be no shortage of "whistleblowers" within Easy only too keen to contact the relevant authority to bring them to their attention.

Unfortunately, the rules are so lax that they are probably not breaking any, but if you know better I (and I am sure countless seriously p1ssed off Easy employees,and indeed p1ssed off unemployed pilots) would be glad to hear about them.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

The rules are CAA's own regarding UK employees being employed on a permanent basis not a temporary one.

[eagle21]

There have been many temporary contracts in the UK aviation sector before. The CAA has nothing to say about this. What is the problem when people accept new contracts and current employees say nothing?

[wind check]

BTW, is the boss Andy Harisson still supposed to leave the company next June? Where is he going and who's going to replace him?

He looked totally pissed off on this video:

YouTube - George Monbiot meets easyjet chief executive Andy Harrison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhpTr_ZJ4Gk)

[Thad Jarvis]

well at least we have clear demonstration as to the lack of understanding of the nature of the problem now - the only reason BALPA HQ are making any fuss at all is because the CC pushed them. As for the CAA, well the Easyjet OPs Inspector lives in cloud cuckoo land- apparently he is mighty impressed with the FRMS function and happy with the number of cadets coming through at present irrespective of their contract or lack thereof. It is not for the CC to determine strategic planning on industry matters- that is why the NEC exist. The outside world might not like it but the CC agenda has always been driven by the membership and I'm sure it will remain so.

[Zippy Monster]

He looked totally pissed off on this videoI'd be p*ssed off if I met George Monbiot. Odious little man.

[captplaystation]

Odious little man indeed, but whether or not you subscribe to his agenda , you have to admit he had Andy on his back foot.

[Microburst2002]

But...

What is BALPA?

I thought it is a trade union, which is formed by the workers.
So if EZY pilots belong to BALPA EZY, then it is EZY pilots who have to do something. Or are they waiting for BA BALPA pilots to do it?

Gentlemen: You have to move. You have to arrange meetings, discuss the situation (inminent, certain, deadly threat to your T&Cs) and then decide what actions to initiate. BALPA will provide assessment as to how to initiate actions, I guess. But all the initiative and the thrust for action needed to succeed in avoiding the torpedo can only stem from you.

As someone said:

WHOOP WHOOP.... PULL ..UP!

[wind check]

Odious little man indeed, but whether or not you subscribe to his agenda , you have to admit he had Andy on his back foot.


AH seems to be very patient and polite, it would be funny to see this journalist interviewing O'Leary :}:ouch:

[stansdead]

There WILL be contract Captains next if you guys don't stop the rot.

It's only a matter of time.

[easy]

the only reason we're not flooded with contract captains already, is that the BALPA CC stood it's ground and said NO. Contract F/O's are something the CC is trying it's best to improve, but as has been mentioned already, are only one of the many issues that concern the easy pilots.:ugh:

[Bruce Wayne]

the only reason we're not flooded with contract captains already, is that the BALPA CC stood it's ground and said NO. Contract F/O's are something the CC is trying it's best to improve, but as has been mentioned already, are only one of the many issues that concern the easy pilots.:ugh:


So, easy,

Just to clarify, or play devils advocate here, contract captains are not in EZ because the BALPA CC put its foot down and said no..

By reasonable deduction, then, can we ascertain that Contract F/O positions are out there becuase the BALPA CC didn't put its foot down and say 'No!'

?

[Microburst2002]

It clearly follows.

Maybe EZY FOs should associate aside from captains.

[easy]

Dear Bruce and Microburst,

I think you'll find that easy F/O's are more concerned at DEC's taking their commands than pay-to-fly's 'taking' the summer jobs of unemployed but experienced F/O's.

:ouch:

[Bruce Wayne]

if that is the case then it seems to be a very bizzare view; like looking for the blindside, while ignoring dead ahead.

[Doug the Head]

Well Bruce, that has always been a major issue for me: the total lack of foresight and situational awareness by many EZY pilots and the CC!

Win the battle but lose the war, Penny wise, Pound foolish [worried about their own command (i.e. DEC's) but failing to see how cadets are undermining the entire T&C's], thinking tactically and not strategically, that sort of thing.

Hence the problems ahead... :(

But hey, what do I know, right? I've only been predicting these problems for the last couple of years or so... :hmm:

[Man Flex]

Yes there are other issues going on but the problem is partly because Balpa membership levels are not what they used to be inside easyJet.

Assuming membership is running at about 70%, any sort of ballot for industrial action would perhaps return say 70% of that (a fairly typical return).

And how many of those would care enough to say "yes"?

[Bruce Wayne]

Man Flex,

You know, a few months back when the discussion was ongoing about BALPA's 'Respect and Dignity' campaign toward FR, there was a lot of sanctimony about how great EZ was and the T&C's were so much better in EZ because of BALPA...

... seems very hollow now, even more so in consideration of your post above.

BALPA membership at 70%, THAT'S still not enough?

That just tells me that BALPA is not doing what it says on the tin.

(ref: figures in BALPA poll thread)

[Dreamshiner]

I really can't believe what I'm reading. I think based on the poll and what's been written on a number of threads so far a distinct separation is forming between big (national) BALPA and little (local/company) BALPA.

Maybe its not enough that the trend is having your own little company specific union i.e.

BA BALPA
EZY BALPA
TCX BALPA

but now maybe we should be looking at further splitting i.e.

BA BALPA FO
BA BALPA SFO Shorthaul LGW
BA BALPA SFO Longhaul LGW
BA BALPA SFO Shorthaul LHR
BA BALPA SFO Longhaul LHR
BA BALPA CAPT Shorthaul LGW
BA BALPA CAPT Longhaul LGW
BA BALPA CAPT Shorthaul LHR
BA BALPA CAPT Longhaul LHR
BA BALPA CAPT HAMBLE LGW
BA BALPA CAPT HAMBLE LHR

EZY BALPA CADET
EZY BALPA FO
EZY BALPA SFO
EZY BALPA CAPT

and on and on and on, each with their own agenda's, specific membership cards, reps and level of influence over the management. Obviously this is a nonsense, the whole reason a union works is that the majority pull together for the common good. I can understand management rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of divide and conquer (Jesus, we established an empire by employing it) but when pilots start aligning themselves it is bloody worrying.

What I've read is the EZY CC made a stand with Capt's but didn't follow up with the same gusto for FO's. What message does that send about your fellow colleagues and industry as a whole.

Maybe its time we remembered that while we all (industry wide) tend to support a change in relations/interaction with airport security and rest being a 'big' issue, to suggest this current EZY behaviour can't be taken on and addressed nationally combined with a lack of evidence of any action makes me glad my subs stay in my bank account.

[ZBMAN]

What I see happening in the next few months/years:

With the upturn, and most legacy carriers finding themselves suddenly short of crew, attrition will skyrocket, as most FO's will not see EZY as a viable long-term employer. If that happens, then no matter how many contractors are pulled in, the operation will fall appart, experience levels will dwindle, safety will be impacted (despite all the BS from H89).

Some FO's are already waiting in various holding pools/looking elsewhere. The problems are only just starting, believe me.

[Silvertop]

The one thing about Airline Management is how bad they are at looking anywhere else other than far enough ahead to their next bonus! They certainly will never look over their shoulder's at even the recent past of just a few short years ago. Easy's lot are particularly "blinkered" and arogant in this respect. 2003 here we come!:rolleyes:

Happy days Silvertop

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

There is so much rubbish on this thread about BALPA that it really is quite embarassing. Dreamshiner has, for reasons best known to himself, taken out a personal vendetta against BALPA and just rants on with virtually no substance to his complaints. The statements by Cmon-PullUP are equally foolish - they simply are not true. What is being presented about BALPA only caring for Captains or BA employees or fighting 'small' battles instead of 'big' ones is just utter drivel. More importantly, these statements are being presented as fact to a gullible audience who take it as gospel truth.

From where I sit, BALPA are fighting a vigorous battle on several fronts at easyJet. They have full-time line pilots giving their every spare hour to the work of BALPA - only to be met by a torrent of abuse by some of the people I have mentioned plus several others. It frankly disgusts me to listen to the whining of people who can barely lift a finger to assist - but have hours of free time to rubbish something they should have supported. If you want to be a pathetic whiner, please feel free - just at least have some substantiated evidence to back up your assertions. Personally I would rather poke pins in my eyes than listen to some of this stuff - it really becomes so utterly tedious. Just try and be part of the solution rather than most of the problem.

[EGCC4284]

NSF

I thought you had left Planet Earth, welcome back.

Do you think that the rot will be stopped and easyJet will start to offer perm jobs with the going rate, not the crap on offer from CTC or PARC

[Dreamshiner]

NSF, I see why you were locked up, Mr MacKay has some questions to answer with respect to not losing your key. However I'll address your Horlicks induced rant and reply accordingly.

My reasons are I was a card carrying BALPA member, I was left feeling disenfranchised as the organisations top brass seemed more concerned with going for easy solutions to low priority issues rather than take on the big pertinent ones. As a result I started a poll after my opinions and views were questioned in another thread essentially to see if my thoughts and feelings were out of kilter with the general consensus. As for why have so much time to post on here, well, like a great number of our colleagues find myself unemployed and not feeling the union did all it could.

You attacked me for starting the poll, and while it is by no means perfect, when typing this reply there had been 600 votes. Of current membership 62% look upon the body negatively compared to 38% who are in the positive camp. Of all people who have held BALPA membership (therefore including the cancelled members) 72% think its ineffective balanced with 28% who are content or impressed with its performance. Thirdly, of those never holding membership for whatever reason, for every one person who think they are doing a good job, 11 think they are not. Am I and the poll I started responsible for this perception?

When you question motives and run someone down for starting a poll, to vote on post #3 (and not comment negatively) kind of endorses it in a masochistic way ... or don't you agree?

The substance to my argument is rubber stamped as I find myself in a group of people who are intelligent to distinguish that BALPA HQ is far away from the individual CC's and the reps who give up their time. I also find myself in a group that outnumbers people with your stance 3 to 1.

You have offered nothing except preaching idolatry and subservience despite the outcomes or results of the union. I was initially advised as a child to only offer blind faith to an organised religion, which I rejected when I was old enough to research and think for myself. Something I subsequently ignored when I discovered science and dinosaurs. I was also taught to avoid throwing good money after bad.

I will not stand idly by as I see the industry I invested £120,000 in destroyed by inactivity, ineffectiveness, division and ambivalence. I am not looking to disband BALPA, I am looking for it to reinvent itself, wake up and take on the rough with the smooth. I think it needs a serious reorganisation of its top personnel, resources and strategies going forward. I have offered suggestions and initiatives that could be employed going forward. What else would you see me do short of a high court gagging order.

I doubt you will change your opinion as I will mine but if nothing else I pondered some of your suggestions and comments as I hope you have with mine and applied your arguments against the points I have made to date to see if they have merit or flaw.

You are more than entitled to a public right to reply. However we could easily turn this into a personal tet-a-tet. I suggest it may be better to continue on PM to ensure the integrity of this thread and the title.

[Scottie]

Of current membership 62% look upon the body negatively compared to 38% who are in the positive camp.

How do you know they are members? You don't. Therefore your stupid poll is worthless.

I will not stand idly by as I see the industry I invested £120,000 in destroyed by inactivity, ineffectiveness, division and ambivalence. I am not looking to disband BALPA, I am looking for it to reinvent itself, wake up and take on the rough with the smooth. I think it needs a serious reorganisation of its top personnel, resources and strategies going forward. I have offered suggestions and initiatives that could be employed going forward. What else would you see me do short of a high court gagging order.

Excellent, I'll enjoy reading your manifesto when you stand for election.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Oh hear we go, if you don't like it, pay your subs AND stand for election.

A statement that has cost us many members over the years.

Anything more constructive to say Scottie?

In many ways I agree with Dreamshiner, but I also see that in many ways BALPAs hands are tied thanks to the heavily employer loaded employment laws in this country. Something BALPA and every other union should be doing something about.

Look at the complexities involved in the BA cabin crew dispute, every t must be crossed and i dotted then teams of lawyers go over it and they go to court take out injunctions..................

Then look at our SXF base. Tomorrow morning we strike for the first wave. Done and dusted.

If we did that in the UK we would be out of a job and if BALPA said do it they would be sued by the company.

BALPA walk a fine line in the UK but what they do not do a good job at is communicate and lead from the front ( or top ) and I have told Jim McAuslan this on more than one occassion.

None of us pull in the same direction and if we did then Cor et al may take us a bit more seriously. Nick and team do a great job but are only effective with a solid membership behind them and that we do not have. This is where BALPA fails. It needs a charasmatic leader to rally the troops and herd us like a sheepdog to all point the same way, because I can see that, does that mean I should stand for election Scottie? No, I am not the man for the job, I do think NSF could do a great job for BALPA, but I mean a full time BALPA leader, because Jim McAuslan is a great debater, he is well versed in employment law, he is a great asset to BALPA, but not as top dog.

BALPA does need to reinvent itself, with that I agree 100%, and if people were to look at this unscientific poll and pick it to pieces without even thinking about its results then to me it is clear their heads are in the sand and they are happy with our % membership, our % response to ballots and the continual abuse of our agreements by EZY.

The problem is two fold, people need to sign up to, and back BALPA, but BALPA needs to take that membership, consolidate it and show it can lead and deliver. Otherwise we have the status quo, which is not delivering what we need.

[Scottie]

Anything more constructive to say Scottie?

What I said was constructive:}

[Dreamshiner]

No election for me Scottie, I'm a professional pilot and when I get into a job again I intend to follow the career as I was advised as a child that if you find a job that's your hobby you will never work again. I have no interest sitting in an office as BALPA general secretary (I did that when I was younger, I made what I had to fund my training and happy I made the career change) or do I feel I would be qualified to get the job. However I am entitled to pass comment or would rather I was restricted?

As I've said before it happens too often on PPRuNe that if you find fault there will always be someone who insists you provide a solution. It's not good enough to question, they feel have to be proactive too.

I was unhappy with the forwards performance during the weekends 6 nations match as I pointed out to my friends in the pub, nobody asked me to furnish the management with a new strategy and send my CV in to apply for a coaching position. However on here, you find fault, you suddenly have to be a crusader for the cause.

All I'm advocating the current leadership team need to do four things, 1st of which is look objectively and not personally at the criticism levelled, recognise that a significant number feel they are ineffective and put measures to address this, 2nd is to walk a mile in another man's shoes (a newly qualified pilot) and recognise the issues he/she faces in 2010, 3rd, combat the disintegration of the whole into separate groups with their own issues, a union works based on all pulling together for common goals, at present there isn't consistency among the CC's, some are more effective and have better relationships with management than others. Exchange of ideas, strategy and best practice could combat this easily, finally 4th, grow a pair and take on the hard issues as well as the easy, otherwise membership will dwindle in the years ahead and as will BALPA's relevance.

I have offered a number of initiatives that I feel would help their cause, goals and perception among our community. I am sure that someone in the senior management keeps an eye on the threads on here and no doubt communicates them to all at their regular meetings.

I agree the poll is not an exact science, its results depend on the honesty and integrity of those viewing the thread and that can't be monitored in the same way that someone could set up a username and post on here with an agenda.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

studi - I completely agree with you. I think the most pressing issue we at easyJet face is the issue of contract pilot employment. This issue bothers me more than any other, as it is clearly a union-busting tactic by our Operations Director. He is a totally ruthless individual who has made a complete hash of everything he has touched at easyJet. His shambolic handling of the winter crisis, where he did absolutely nothing was a disgrace. He is personally responsible for the ongoing disaster of crew numbers which is costing us millions. He has managed to alienate himself from just about every employee in the company apart from Andy Harrison. After AH departs, he will find himself a very lonely man indeed - I trust his time at easyJet after that will be very short-lived. How right you are - we do need a scope agreement to prevent contract staff and it must become a top priority for BALPA.

[joe two]

we do need a scope agreement to prevent contract staff and it must become a top priority for BALPA.



And this should have been done at BALPA yesterday.



.

[Microburst2002]

Yes, but don't forget:

You are BALPA. BALPA can be as good as you can make it to be. Not any better. It can be superb. It's up to you.

Don't wait. Tell them to do it. I am sure they will gladly start the fight if they feel they are backed by you. And if they feel that you will not change your mind in the middle of the fight, or that you will be distracted by some stupid thing.

Good luck, mates

[hiha]

Do not ask what BALPA can do for you, but what you can do for BALPA.

Stop blaming BALPA and start acting yourself.

xx

[Company Message]

And what exactly are WE expected to do?

Let me see, what HAVEN'T BALPA sorted out:

Crew food
Roster transitions
Crew food
Roster violations
Crew food
Leave booking fiasco
Crew food
Cadet contracts
Crew food
Pay negotiations
Crew food
Positioning pay
Crew food

... and apart from the crew food, we'll now have to deal with contract Captains this summer. BALPA now have a real credibility problem whether they think so or not.

Having bought the dog I don't expect to have to bark myself, that's what I'm paying 700 quid a year for, I'm far too busy flying my backside off...

[Zippy Monster]

Do not ask what BALPA can do for you, but what you can do for BALPA.

Stop blaming BALPA and start acting yourself.

I'm sick to death of hearing this rhetoric every time someone dares to criticise the 'work' of BALPA. I don't pay my fees to do stuff for BALPA. I pay for them to do stuff for me. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Company Message is right. What do you mean, 'start acting yourself'? What are the ordinary, fee-paying, rank-and-file members supposed to DO, exactly?

The whole point is that the union is supposed to act for you (with your mandate), not the other way around. If we all start 'acting ourselves', as you put it, then what's the point in BALPA even being there?

I'm a member and I want the union to be successful in what it does, but like CM says, they are having a bit of a credibility problem at the moment. I don't blame the CC for this, who are overworked and under-rewarded for what they do; I blame the total lack of leadership and communication from up on high in HQ.

[EGCC4284]

Like I said

easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

What are you CC doing about it

[Microburst2002]

Zippy you are right

I don't say each one acts on his own. That is exactly what you don't have to do. That is why unionizing is necessary.

I say you all use your phone, call your BALPA representants, and tell them what you feel, what you want, what your worries are.

Even better: Visit them, a few of you at the same time. And then visit them again, and call them, too. I am sure you all would be amazed at how quickly things would start changing.

They are not the general of an army nor you the following orders soldiers. You must take part in the strategy if you feel so. Having representants doesn't mean that you forget about the issues. Your problems are yours, and BALPA is one of the tools you have to solve them. Use that tool. It never works well on its own.

Let them know how worried you all are (if you are). Don't blame them. It is your fault, too. You have to communicate well. That's all. Not easy, however.

[Moonraker One]

Leak it to the press like everyone else does.

It is not Queensbury Rules any more.

Fight dirty.:\

I expect some hard up fellow could make a great Hello Spread from it.

Shattered dreams etc a fool and his money.:oh:

[Bruce Wayne]

Leak it to the press like everyone else does.

It is not Queensbury Rules any more.

Fight dirty.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif

I expect some hard up fellow could make a great Hello Spread from it.

Shattered dreams etc a fool and his money.:oh:


You think the media gives a flying f:mad:k about T&C and payscales?

The media sees pilots as overpaid middle aged, middle class, overpaid ruperts that work two days a week with a week in the Maldives every time they fly while drawing a couple of hundred thousand in pay.

Any view on increased T&C's in the media will be viewed as demanding more time off for crews to sun themselves in an exotic far off land on full pay, or push the costs of tickets up for the customers.

Out of the cost of each ticket, to biggest earner is HMRC/Government*, not the airlines, not the crew, not the shareholders.

Again this misrepresentation of the facts is an abject failure and disables the industry from challenging government policy that physically damages aviation as a viable industry.

* Alistair Darling admitted that revenue generated from APD is being used to bail out banks.



Chancellor Alistair Darling has admitted that Air Passenger Duty (APD) is a tax to help fight the banking crisis, according to reports.

Speaking (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1224195/COMMENT-ALEX-BRUMMER-Rocky-flight-green-taxes.html) in London last month, Darling told The Journal (http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2009/10/23/tax-on-flying-helped-us-to-maintain-north-jobs-61634-24995975/): "I am quite blunt about it, we need to raise money to pay for some things we have done.

"If unemployment goes up there is a cost obviously to the family, there is cost in increased benefits, Northern Rock has cost a lot of money."

A Treasury spokesman confirmed to Travel Weekly APD has always been a "revenue raising instrument".


my bold

Darling admits APD will help pay for banking crisis (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2009/11/02/32266/darling-admits-apd-will-help-pay-for-banking-crisis.html)

[beachbud]

I would like the details of this particular pay to fly scheme please.
Thanks in advance.

ASAP PLS TOO.

[African Drunk]

As a Biz Jet pilot BALPA really does not help us. I have however kept my membership going as I believe we as a industry do need a union. The stronger BALPA is as a union in terms of numbers of pilots the stronger their position is against the companies.

Maybe the answer is to also penalise those who join as cadets on these new deals. When the US pilots faced the issue of "pay to fly pilots" I understand they took harsher measures and the number of pilots willing to sign up to these schemes reduced and companies were forced to go back to sensible T's and C's.

[dynamite dean]

Agree with a the above a little bit, I wouldnt mind a but of protection in my avaition side of the business. Sooner or later paying for type ratings after paying for thousands on your training then paying for interviews, paying baiscally the whole process to becoming a crew member; eventually allows these hideous contracts that crews end up working under.

As for BALPA im a bit anti unionist after seeing the miners strike effect our part of town . However having said that safety in numbers and having one voice representing a large fraternity sometimes does help. So now what? Join them or not, sign up with a loco and work in these ever degrading terms and conditons .Maybe its time for a career change? Just as people change their careers to pilots. I did hear years ago that 'corporate' is the way forward I wonder if it is:E

[Dreamshiner]

Beachbud - Every UK airline apart from Virgin have taken or currently take low hours pilots and they are given their line training in revenue generating flights with passengers or cargo. They only do this after an advanced course (TR) and simulator time on the aircraft type they will be flying, company acclimatisation and then another simulator session to ensure they are competent (OPC/LPC). When they fly its always with a training captain (a senior pilot who has been flying for a long time and has had additional training too). Upon reaching a sector or hours threshold the FO is assessed and if competent, released to the line and can fly with any fleet captain going forward.

That includes BA taking cadets from OAA, Easy, TCX and Thomson and Monarch from CTC, FlyBe from Cabair, or every airline in the UK from the large number who pursued a modular route to aviation.

The issue highlighted by this thread is one company (Easyjet is not the only one doing this and definitely not the only one considering it) is asking students to pay for an over inflated type rating (a jet TR on the open market ranges from £18,000 to £22,000) and secured line hours, however their is no guarantee of a job at the end and a dangerous precedent could be set if these pilots are cut loose at the end of their contract to allow the next batch in. There is also a large pool of unemployed pilots due to the demise of 6+ UK airlines in the past 2 years, granted not every one will be rated on a 737 or A320, however many believe to hire from this experienced pool rather than from individuals willing to throw money (generally not their own) to gain employment is the wrong way going forward.

The terms and conditions are derisory and ultimately will hurt every pilot going forward if its allowed to continue.

I don't know what your plan is but be careful not to go down the sensationalist route. Your second sentence would lead me to believe you aren't fully aware of how this industry works.

[Global Warrior]

How do the training Capts feel about having to line train these guys? I guess if i felt that strongly about it, i would just go sick every time i was rostered to fly with one............

[beachbud]

A high turnover of inexperienced pilots is a concern and not in the least sensationalist. I have had this discussion with senior management pilots and there is a general consensus that we are moving in the wrong direction. There are more than enough examples of experience depletion, dilution. A lack of consistent flying is a safety issue for a brand new pilot and for the passengers who may end up sitting in the backseat, this is occurring now.
I understand pilots by nature are afraid of using the media as I am one.
PS. Read one particular schools FlexiPilot scheme for example.

[Dreamshiner]

beachbud you have since edited and removed your second sentence from your original post. I'm paraphrasing from memory so apologies for any errors:

"or any other airlines acting as a flight school".

All airlines train pilots. Some take 250TT fATPLers, some ask for a TR attained elsewhere first, some (such as Virgin) ask for 2,500TT. All airlines train pilots in some form. However, only a few ask pilots to contribute financially towards already revenue generating flights and hopefully it can be combated effectively.

Your post led me to believe that you were passing on information to someone/something that could bring this to light to a larger audience. I merely advised you to be aware that this argument should be presented rationally. It is clear we have to distinguish between this scheme and how airlines have traditionally operated with respect to pilot training. You have to be able to cover your bases and the comment you made (even though the sentiment was correct) would leave what you are trying to achieve open to criticism.

As for the rest of your comments in the above post I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't know what your outlet is however we all need to be aware that the media tend to soup up a story as it tends to sell more copy.

[beachbud]

Thanks for your comments. Removed that post as you rightly pointed out it could be misleading. Dont worry, we will be stating nothing more than facts and it will be quite clear as to our intent. Best.

[Microburst2002]

Training within an airline is a cost, with a bond, maybe, but a cost.

But these programs are not a cost. They are a bussiness, where those who buy "the product" are the pilots.

It is simply perverse, and I am convinced that it is not legal, though it seems to be.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Training within an airline is a cost, with a bond, maybe, but a cost.

Quite, A cost. A Business cost.

Which is why it is morally indefinsible and utterly WRONG to charge the trainee for this. In ANY way. A properly run company doesn't even need to bond because it suffers so little wastage due to the loyalty of its employees...

Fuel is a cost too, so is maintenance. Are we to be bamboozled into subsidising the airline for this too in future?

When this industry regains it's sense of morality (Ha! Pigs might fly!) it may also regain its place as one of the highly regarded places of work. Right now it seems to me that airlines are on the moral level of rapists and kiddie-fiddlers with these obscene con tricks and rip-offs that are being perpetrated on desperate rich kids, while the dedicated hours-builders of yesteryear remain in the weeds, unable to compete.

Ps. A type rating on any of the medium sized jets is obtainable at something like 13,000Eu at a major and very impessive training facility I know in Holland...

The airlines involved in this style of training are guilty of nothing less than fraud, imho.

[Dreamshiner]

Well put Agaricus/MB2002

While executives have targets assigned by shareholders resulting in juicy bonuses, the unending search for efficiencies and the eroding of T&C's to align us with bus drivers will not cease.

Does the EUR 13,000 TR include a base check?

[Microburst2002]

No it doesn't.

I saw that advertisement in AMS a few months ago.

Times are not good for TRTOs, right now, because fewer and fewer people are taking the risk of self sponsoring their TRs (of which I am glad). That's why we have "sales" now. But the base training is the problem. Along with the problem of keeping currency in type without actually flying the airplane.

They say that JAR FCL, right now, permits renewing type rating without the 10 sector in 12 months requierement. All you have to do is the sim. So you can be a 737 or 320 rated pilot for 30 years if you do 4 hours sim each year. Amazing, isn't it?

So maybe they will eliminate the requirement for a base training in the real airplane, too. In order to help the TRTOs in these times of crisis. They are suffering so much... :sad: