National Air Support

[Fly_For_Fun]

It seems to me that this is moving at a pace now. With trials being set up and questions in the houses of parliament. I was wondering what the implications might be for the observers in place, will they continue as is? Will the pilots be employed by the Home Office or department they set up? Who will own the aircraft? Will the tax payers that bought them in the first place get their money back? Which units will stay and which will go? etc, etc, etc.....Any views or even inside information.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

*****Reporter alert*******

[Fly_For_Fun]

Sorry to disapoint, but no. Just an interested bystander.

[handysnaks]

1. Probably
2. No, possibly
3. Don't think it's been sorted out yet
4. See 4
5. Same answer as 3

[timex]

Dont give too much away mate...

[handysnaks]

Timex, as I understand it my answers are accurate as of now!:ok: However, tomorrow they may be wrong.:eek:

[timex]

I'll be surprised if they last that long..:ok::ok:

[Skidkid]

"National Air Support" ?

Of what?

And where?

[Spanish Waltzer]

Of what?

And where?

1. Air

2. Nationally

:ok:

[Skidkid]

I was being pedantic!

There is nothing in the thread so far that explains what is being supported or in which country. I presume that you are referring to Police Air Support operations in the United Kingdom.

Let's not forget that there are readers fom all over the world and in all walks of life who read these posts and may not understand what is being talked about.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Hey Skidkid, did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? :ok:

[Skidkid]

I certainly did and I've been getting even grumpier as the day progresses.

Role on 5 o'clock!!!!

[Coconutty]

A quick Google search brought this up which might be of interest to you in Dudley :
http://www.west-midlands-pa.gov.uk/downloadchecklink.asp?filename=712&main=0&category=comm15

Paragraph 12. is particularly interesting :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Nothing is ever set in stone!

A HANDS Off Our Helicopter warning has been sounded by the chairman of Cleveland Police Authority, Councillor Dave McLuckie.

He told a meeting of the authority that there has been a discussion at ACPO - the Association of Chief Police Officers - on the idea of bringing police helicopters in the country into a central unit.

Cllr McLuckie said he had urged fellow police authority chairmen who had police helicopters to resist any move to have a pool of about 20 police helicopters in a central location in the country.

“The police authority will decide what it does with its resources,” said Cllr McLuckie.

He said the idea of a central pool came out of a discussion about providing policing for the Olympics in 2012.

“We could look at seconding the helicopter in some arrangement for the period of the Olympics but we will not have anything to do with setting up a national pool of police helicopters.

“I would not want and I would not allow our helicopter to be part of a central pool. It takes away local control,” said Cllr McLuckie.

He said the Cleveland police helicopter was used extensively.

“My message is: Hands of our helicopter. You are not getting it,” said Cllr McLuckie.

Gazette Live - News - Local News - Police chairman rejects helicopter pool plan (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2010/02/26/police-chairman-rejects-helicopter-pool-plan-84229-25920120/)

[timex]

SS, hasn't that changed already? ISTR that Cleveland have signed up to National Air Support?

[Heli-Ice]

Let's not forget that there are readers fom all over the world and in all walks of life who read these posts and may not understand what is being talked about.

I was thinking the same. One shouldn't have to rape dear old Google with questions just to interpret good and meaningful discussions like this one on Rotorheads. ;)

[SilsoeSid]

Timex,

Well, by looking at the date of the article, 26 Feb, I guess it depends who did the signing and what they actually signed up for. Rumour has it that some Forces haven't even been told by the unit what is possibly happening to their aircraft.

[jayteeto]

Hide it from the police authority (their bosses)?? That shows good integrity!!!

[Spanish Waltzer]

Just to take this way off thread for a second, there was talk a few years ago of some of the larger UK fire brigades looking to develop a helo support capability for airborne spotting/control & metro SAR/CASEVAC.

Would/Could a national air support organisation go some way into being able to provide greater capability in this way by having a selection of airframes/roles that could be called upon by a range of organisations - eg police/fire/ambulance and therefore be funded centrally?

[Droopy]

and therefore be funded centrally?

You're 'avin a larf, aincha?

[Coconutty]

One shouldn't have to rape dear old Google...."RAPE" :confused:

If Google is female then surely she consents to being penetrated in this way -
for the perfectly legal purpose of obtaining information :ok:

As for the original post title being ambiguous - it doesn't take a genius to work out that the poster -
being in the UK, and referring to the "Home Office", is likely to be talking about UK National Air Support :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Heli-Ice]

Coconutty.

Thank you for the UK infrastructure 101 course.

However, as previously mentioned, we who are not familiar with every bit of yours or other countries infrastructure, might need help with the abbreviations to understand what is being discussed. I guess there are Home Offices and NAS's in other countries than UK so it is perfectly legit to point this out.

Some of the abbreviations used on Rotorheads are not always that obvious to many of us and dear Google doesn't always provide the help needed when asked. That does not mean that we aren't interested in the discussion and should be left out?

Thanks again man, your point is taken. :)

Excuse my interruption on the thread topic, didn't intend to hijack it.

[Coconutty]

Heli-Ice :

No worries - Where do I send the Invoice for the Training Course ;)

Stay cool,

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[REGLER]

If the idea of a new National Strategy is produced by ACPO - Association of Chief Police Officers - then the strategy applies to the 43 territorial police forces of England and Wales. Now I'm not absolutely certain but I have an idea that financing and control of police in Scotland and in Northern Ireland are dealt with differently - quirk of the 'United Kingdom'!

[PANews]

Yes and the same applies to British Transport Police - they also do not count towards the National Air Support Strategy. But there remains one element that could provide a model for wider cooperation .... The South Coast Project ... the BAE Herti UAV project that takes in police, customs and a whole raft of different official organisations likely to be able to demonstrate a need for air support. Herti will not happen unless all the interested parties continue to stay interested in it.

On that basis alone, if they get this right, there is nothing to stop National Air Support spreading to encompass a whole range of organisations across the UK.

[Coconutty]

..... .But there remains one element that could provide a model for wider cooperation ....Interesting choice of phrase - Have you heard something else ( Apart from the Celevland issue raised by SS ) that may not be common knowledge, indicating that the (UK) National Air Support Strategy is NOT going to receive such wider co-operation, leaving just the "remaining" element of UAV's to be brought together nationally ???

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

BAE HERTI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_HERTI)
To achieve a UAV that can safely fly within civilian airspace, BAE Systems is developing a "sense and avoid" system for HERTI, utilising a radar and electro-optical systems.

The 'South Coast Project' makes me think, UAVs and weekend/bank holiday trips across to France don't mix.

I'm not particularly against UAVs, however my worry is that 2 aircraft with a minimum of 2 sets of eyes each, have twice the chance of seeing each other, than 2 aircraft and one set of eyes.

What's the chance of a garden search in Brum being covered from the South Coast? :p


p.s. Looks just like the rc plane I have, enjoy and lovingly repair :(
firebird-commander-2-rc-plane.html (http://www.goradiocontrolled.com/acatalog/hobbyzone-firebird-commander-2-rc-plane.html)

[REGLER]

There are some pretty huge issues with UAV operating in civil airspace that need to be addressed before the EASA is going to let it happen. Once this 'minor' hurdle is crossed, then we might see the CAA and the Home Office allow UAVs to operate wearing blue and yellow.

For now and maybe the next five years (say), anything like an aircraft or helicopter UAV weighing more than 7 kg will need to operate over a military range. Sure.... if something really big and nasty happens in the UK, then we might expect the military to turn up with what they have .... but I very much doubt this will happen in anything less than a national emergency. So when it comes to helicopter pilot's police jobs, the next five years should be safe..ish.

The bigger issue will be rationalization of bases and types which is where my...ish comes in.

The problem today is how much helicopters (and the crews) cost and also how much will the inevitable replacements cost in the future. My money is that any airframe rationalization will see older airframes retired and/or used as back-ups, and the younger aircraft made to work longer/harder - so no brand new aircraft every 10 years any more and a smaller core fleet.

If you think you have worries from UAVs, think about helicopter salesmen, who will now have to wait 15 years (or more) between replacement helicopter sales and not the ten they are used to. Really makes me sad...:rolleyes:.

I guess that they(the builders) might see a little more mid-life update work.... which will help the engineers who do the clever stuff:). And when it eventually comes to replacing the current stock - say 8-10 years plus from now.... then UAVs could well be an issue for us all.

I guess the current round of police EC135 deliveries might be the last for a fair bit..........

[Coconutty]

I hear that the CAA are to imminently announce their plans for UK Police Air Support,
with details of the number of aircraft that are going to be cut from the UK fleet -
Anyone know anything for sure yet ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[FloaterNorthWest]

CAA or Home Office?

[Retro Coupe]

Anyone know anything for sure yet ?

Yes, it has nothing to do with the CAA. ;)

The National Police Air Support symposium at the end of October will thrash out the detail following an announcement the week before regarding the restructuring of Air Support in the UK.

The main driving force behind the changes is the NPIA.

[Blind Pugh]

Will that be the NPIA quango that's earmarked to be abolished.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/24_09_10_bbcnewsquangos3.pdf

see p12 of 22

[zorab64]

I'd suggest the real driving force is actually our old friend, "money" - or shortage of it. :\

If the NPIA is running this, I'm sure both public & Officers on the ground would like them to take a very close look at how much "I" they're likely to get for their reduced £££s? :=

[miles magistrate]

I think you will find that ACPO is running with this and not NPIA. Alex Marshal (Hampshire) is the ACPO lead, with R...... W..... acting as his point of Contact. O.... D...... is there as well but not as an NPIA Advisor.

[Coconutty]

Just a thought - Does this topic need to be merged with UK Police Budget Cuts (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397650-uk-police-helicopter-budget-cuts.html)

The UK Police helicopter budget cuts topic,
seems to be converging with the UK National Air Support strategy ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg




Not really: there have been a dozen or so posts moved from this thread to the other one, and the thread topics will remain individual.

Senior Pilot

SP - Thanks - Just a suggestion ;)

[cat up a tree]

If it is all nationalised, I hope they dont just sell the Cleveland aircraft to make a profit after all Cleveland were given their 135 for nothing.

It should be given to the BTP rail cops who have a massive task of patrolling the network especially in the midlands.

BTP hire an old squirell at the moment, and the old Cleveland aircraft NESV would be ideal for daytime patrols and wouldnt have to be scrapped under the latest CAA regs.
:zzz:

[Coconutty]

It should be given to the BTP rail copsNo it shouldn't ! - It's a valuable assett and if Cleveland no longer need it then it should be SOLD
to the highest bidder to recover some of the revenue spent operating it.

As for BTP, with all the National and Regional collaboration going on,
it might be more cost effective if BTP stopped hiring the "old squirell",
which they try to cover their vast rail Network with, and instead negotiate
agreements with the Police forces through whose areas the rail tracks run,
to provide Air Support / patrols as and when needed.


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[EjectEject]

Normal Police ASU doing BTP ASU work is long overdue and should have been sanctioned years ago.

[Fly_For_Fun]

It looks as if the major reconciling of Air Support here in the UK is about to put a lot of pilots on the job market and save a few quid for the chancellor to boot. Would that mean a leaner but better service , I doubt it.

As a side note I wonder if the National model would include HEMS and the like, not just the Police Air Support Units. Hey why not make it a branch of JHC and be done with it?

[tigerfish]

Ive only just looked at this thread but I see that daft ****** cat up a tree has been talking a lot of totally inaccurate cobblers here too!

Cleveland were not GIVEN their a/c. They applied for, and were awarded the standard Govt grant of 40% towards its total cost. Even the cat should be able to work out that they therefore had to fund the remaining 60% themselves. The fund I refer to existed from 1992 until 2008 and was directly responsible for permitting UK forces to develop one of the most efficient Police Air Support services in the world.

Cat if you really must make such comments do try and research your subject first and as a result you might talk a little less garbage.

Britsh Transport Police have contributed very little towards the development of UK Police Air Support and apart from hiring in machines on a fairly regular basis have little experience compared to most other units.

Tigerfish

[mickjoebill]

Britsh Transport Police have contributed very little towards the development of UK Police Air Support and apart from hiring in machines on a fairly regular basis have little experience compared to most other units.


How many hours per annum do they fly?
Why couldn't Police Air Support do the job/s? avaialability? expense?


Mickjoebill

[PANews]

BTP tended to use the 'free' Jarvis helicopter but lost that option when Jarvis [a rail repair contractor] went bust.

There were other contracts - notably with Veritair - but I suspect there was little real substance to either set up. The Jarvis machine had a primary engineering role so it would be spare seat if at all most times and the only high profile use was scare tactics. These were usually flown at end of term time trying to keep the children off the lines.

Number of hours? I have yet to see a document that even suggested what that might have been.

[Coconutty]

the only high profile use was scare tactics. These were usually flown at end of term time trying to keep the children off the lines. .......they were ( are ? ) also used when there was an identified reason for doing so.

One such example was back in 2005 when parts of the Midlands Rail Network were being targeted by someone with a gripe against Network Rail, who was going round setting fire / destroying electrical signalling / switch boxes, causing hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage, and costing Network Rail in excess of £4 million with severe disruption to the rail network.

Former railway worker turned vandal jailed for 10 years | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-449745/Former-railway-worker-turned-vandal-jailed-10-years.html)

A considerable amount of Night time patrols were carried out by BTP using a twin Squirrel, that could easily have been accomplished by the local force Air Support Units.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[J.A.F.O.]

Is there not a good argument for merging this with the other Police Air Support thread that's running?

Mods, any chance? It's the same thing, now.