Emergency Procedures.

[BlueDiamond]

Hello Everyone,
I'm new to PPPuNe and would like to open this topic for discussion, comment or suggestion - the emergency procedures demonstration.

It seems to be the really cool thing for the suits (and almost everyone else)to ignore the safety demonstration. It's almost as if the level of disinterest is used to advertise a passenger's frequent flyer status - the less attention paid the higher up you are on the scale and the cooler you are as a result.

I am sure the cabin crews must find this endlessly frustrating. Information is being given to the pax which will help them to save themselves if it all comes down to the wire and those same pax are busily ignoring it all in case, God forbid, anyone should think it's their first time aboard an aircraft. Those same people will be the first to bleat when something goes wrong and the cabin crew all too busy to give them the individual attention they will demand.

As a passenger, I have a problem with this attitude. When the day arrives that I need to follow the emergency procedures, I am also going to have to deal with a whole aircraft full of people who haven't a clue what they're supposed to be doing because they were too busy advertising their frequent flyer status to take notice of the information designed to save their lives.

The cabin crew will have the same problem. Not only will they be trying to follow procedure, they will also be dealing with a wagonload of "frequent flyers" who now want personal safety lessons because they didn't pay any more attention this time than they did the last time they flew. Their need to appear cool was greater than their need to save their own lives.

Am I the only person out here in passengerland who even cares about this issue? I would love to see the airlines put a little more emphasis on the safety officer status of their cabin crews and a little less on their drink-providing, meal-serving and non-stop-smiling abilities. These are all pleasant extras that add to a good flight but they are not the primary reasons for the cabin crews' presence on the aircraft.

I'd love some feedback on this if only to know that I'm not the only safety-conscious passenger around ..... or perhaps to confirm that I am!!!!!!!!

[Slasher]

I once had to pax in a CX A330 in FC. I was in a suit (unfortunately I had no choice. I was attending a meeting in HKG imediatley on arrival) and was sitting to some Chinese bigshot with his head in the local paper.
Watching the emergencey brief the guy nudged me and asked why I was watching the brief. I replyed that if an accident occurs I intend to be one of the survivers watching his body being pulled out of the wreckage in a bodybag.
BD there will always be those that will die because they are simpley born too stupid to survive. Call it Natural Selection I dont know. Apathey kills and always will. Just keep doing what your doing BD and if an accident happens youll most likely be one of the ones that sees the next sunrise tomorrow and not the inside of a coffin lid 6 feet under.

[ExSimGuy]

We've had this discussion before, but it's never a bad thing to repeat it! I'm a "frequent flier" partly due to being based in the Mid-East and partly due to having a daughter who's working for an airline and I can "get my own back" from the days when it was me providing her with "passes" :)

I'm right with you, some of the silly b*ggers deserve to burn! I'm pretty nonchelant if it's my fourth sector in the last week on the same aircraft type on the same airline, apart from checking how many rows in each direction to the nearest "bolt hole" ( if "it" hits the fan, the lights may not be working or the cabin full of smoke) and reminding myself how that particular door/window opens.

When it's a type or configuration new to me (or one I haven't been in for a while), then a lot more attention gets paid. As someone else pointed out recently, it is probably worth just taking a quick check under your seat for the life-vest that's supposed to be there - I didn't realise it, but many are removed by "souvenir hunters" :mad:

A note of encouragement - the "suits" will probably be still trying to work out how to undo their seat belts as you ( and I ;) ) are vanishing through the nearest emergency exit :)

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---- "Per Ardua ad Mixas" ----
(Through hardship to the bars)

[Airliner Junkie]

As a somewhat almost frequent flier (1 flight/every other month) I watch and listen to the safety demo every time with great interest, hoping that one day I'll be able to repeat the demo word for word (haven't been able to yet). ;)

Erik.

[The Sleeping Pax]

Blue Diamond. I'm right with you on this one. I'm like Slasher. I want to see the bodies brought off the aircraft. What infuriates me are those who just have to have their mobile phones switched on all the time. At AUH the other night as we were taxi-ing for take off. The woman behind me had her mobile go off. Fortunately, a sharp eared Stewardess was able to tell her very firmly, to switch it off. As we were still speeding down the runway she was still struggling to turn off the damned machine. Surely the time has come that airlines as to check mobiles are switched off before passengers board the aircraft. The level of attention paid to the safety announcements is practically nil, sadly. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

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Wake me up when we get there

[CargoRat2]

Concur with ExSimGuy; I always count the rows to the nearest exit; I've been through our "cabin procedures trainer" - pax cabin mock-up. Can't see a darned thing when it fills up with smoke.
Which brings me to smoke hoods; we have enough for everybody on our 747F (max 8 people on board incl crew). They provide around 15mins worth of oxygen, so well worth investing in one. Shame pax airlines don't have them;


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rgds Rat

[Feeton Terrafirma]

I have to agree with ExSimGuy, but will also comment that I have been in the situation with many others where it's a weekly 1 hr commute and I could repeat the demo word for word. The plane is usually departing around 6:30 or 7:00 and is full of suits, or returning around 18:30 or 19:00.

On the very few occassions where I've been on a mainy non-business flight, it's been very different, with most PAX actually watching the demo (including me).

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Once I was VERY good, now I'm very good, once!

[10W]

Another frequent flier here (probably twice a week at least).

I too make sure that the cabin crew have my full attention. Ok, I know the words off by heart, can definitely buckle and unbuckle my seatbelt by now, and have also attended a Safety & Emergency Procedures day with a major airline so have practiced actually inflating the lifejacket, evacuating in smoke, etc.

So why bother. Well, I still mentally run through the things I would have to do and how I would achieve them as the cabin crew describe them. Counting the rows to the exits is a great idea, and in smoke and panic it could definitely save your life. I also take note of those around me with their heads stuck in books or newspapers because I am sure as hell not going to be hanging around to help them out. And if they get in my way on the way out, I'll be glad to push them aside, using force if necessary.

Secondly, it is common courtesy to the fellow aviation professionals who are there for our safety. And the occasional thanks and smile from them for paying attention can sometimes be reward enough too ;) But only from the girls !!

BTW Slasher in a suit.......wow, this has to go on Rumours & News :)

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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[DOC.400]

It's about survival. I always check the fire exits and alternative escape routes in hotels; try and never get myself in a position on a road when driving where I can't escape; keep my escape route clear in dodgy bars! and it's the reason I insist my family watches the brief and keeps belted up in case of CAT.
Lifes too short anyway!!

[Airliner Junkie]

Maybe someone here can post a basic recount of the safety demo for several different type of aircraft. I would like to refer to it every now & then, or especially I get ready to go somewhere.

Erik.

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[EGCC Rwy 24]

I always listen - heard it hundreds of times between Manchester and London though. I listen, apart from anything else, because its downright rude and ignorant to ignore someone when they are talking to you.

Last Friday though, I completely lost the plot! Two female "suits" next to me, chattering on through the demo - I actually told them to shut up! They said why should they? I told them that we might need to get out in a hurry and I didn't want to have to climb over them - they apologised and listened to the rest.

The other week, the BA captain gave the normal request for us to listen to the briefing when it came along. This time though, he said "you never know, this may be the morning when you need to know how to get out of a 757 in a hurry". Funny that - absolutely everyone listened!

[JamesG]

Even if you do the weekly or daily commute on the same type of a/c, it makes sense to listen to the safety brief.

The cabin configuration may be a little different to that last "same" a/c and the brief will focus the unconscious part of the mind on this fact, lessening regression to prior experience "I'm sure there used to be a door here..."

The other point is that the flight attendants deserve the courtesy of being treated politely and passengers staying "heads down" when they are trying to do a professional job is very rude IMHO.

[Next Generation PSR]

Top marks Blue Diamond and all the others who have posted their words of sense.

This is directed at the selfish and ignorrant
should they be reading this.

I'm a flight attendant who is constantly frustrated by the ignorrance of 'frequent flyers' - fly more than me do you?

So what makes you think you know it all when we do weeks of safety training for just one type.

Just because it is a 737 does not make it the SAME 737.

All aircraft, even within type have different exit routes, floor lighting systems, slides, oxygen and lifejackets.

So Mr 'know it all' if by chance you are gracing us with your attention - we live in hope, isn't it about time you wised up and stopped hindering those around you.

You will soon lose your 'cool' if burning with the aircraft and will gain no further air miles, unless of course St Peter has his own programme.

I fly other airlines and watch their crews. So what makes you so special you feel you don't have too.

Well done to all those who see sense, your attention to this flight attendant is appreciated. I just hope you were one of them Mr 'know it all'

[I'd rather]

I always listen, even only out of superstition (if I've been good and listened then I'll be safe, the one time I don't, sod's law will get me etc etc). I do feel like I know it by heart, but of course it makes sense to find the exit, and I now count how many rows of seats between me and the exit too. I agree with the point about courtesy as well - it's simply rude to ignore someone who's talking to you.

I think perhaps one of the reasons people tend to ignore the briefing (other than the sheer unlikelihood of anything going wrong) is that they feel that if there is an accident, it's likely to be catastrophic and unsurvivable. As last week's tragic crash shows, that's not always the case - if something goes wrong on the ground, you might have a chance of survival and that chance can only be increased by having taken a couple of minutes to work out where the door is.

[VnV2178B]

Have you noticed that no-one has confessed to ignoring the safety briefings ? I guess that they would be ashamed to admit it.
I hope that reading this convinces any pax to watch and learn.
Next Gen. is right, it's going to be the subtle differences that get you. I always check the fastenings and details on the life vests (doggie clips or ties ?, one inflation tube or two ?) and which exits can you use when (ditching can restrict where you can get out).
I'll admit I used to be fairly complacent about watching the FAs do their 'safety dance' but the more I fly the more importance I place on what I'm being told.
Heads up guys, it's your life they are trying to save !

VnV...

[Squawk 8888]

I think there's a big difference between listening to the preflight and actually comprehending it. I recall one incident a few years ago when a Canadian Regional F28 lost a wheel on touchdown. The captain ordered an evacuation and most of the pax went to retrieve their carry-ons! I can pretty much guarantee that had I been on board those morons would have my footprints all over their backs; I don't mind if they die from their own stupidity (I'd nominate them for a Darwin Award) but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let them take me along.

[The Sleeping Pax]

Realising that I may be treading onto a slightly touchy subject, but.... After a tragic accident such the SIA incident in Taipei, does anyone ask the survivors if they paid attention to the on-board safety announcements?

[pax domina]

Follow the safety briefing - and agree that it is *rude* not to - and also take a look at the safety features card in the seatback pocket.

If Slasher had been sitting there *in his uniform*, I wonder if the guy would have nudged him and asked why he was watching the briefing? Or would he have looked over and thought, "Hey, a *pilot* is paying attention to this, perhaps I should as well"?

I can thank a recent thread on this forum for introducing me to the concept of counting seats to the nearest exit - DOH, don't know why I hadn't thought of it previously.

[before landing check list]

Yes, I will admit it. I am guilty of ignoring the cabin safety announcement. And I know bettter but form here on out I willpay attention. Don't want a boot in the butt on the way out........and my purdy neat stuff bag can stay too.
j

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How could they possibly be Japanese planes?

— Admiral Husband E. Kimmel

Believe me, Germany is unable to wage war.

— Former British Prime Minister David LLoyd George, 1 August, 1934.

[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 09 November 2000).]

[deepee]

Send all the quilty ones to the rear where it doesn't matter anyway because you haven't a clue what's going on from one minute to another even if you're giving 100.

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"I don't suffer from stress.I'm a carrier".

[LowNSlow]

I've always counted the seats to the exits in front and behind me (you never know which end will be burning), but I must confess to occasionally ignoring the safety briefing. This ignorance stopped when I noticed that SAS lifjackets have different strap fasteners to other lifejackets and I hadn't paid attention to how they were fastened. Now I ALWAYS pay attention.

[SLF]

I must confess to ignoring the safety briefings too – as one of the “suits” referred to, I you’re constantly travelling on the same plane to the same destination (typically short haul, weekly commute), you know the drill for the plane you’re on.

When travelling on unfamiliar routes/planes, I do check the safety card for the exits. I’ve never counted rows, but I think I will from now on. No one has mentioned the floor lighting, have any of you who have experienced “real sims” found it useful? I’ll be checking for a vest too…


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29A please!

[pax domina]

Back to the top, given recent events in Miami, as described at
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/011132.html

What got my attention (and has me :mad: ) is this, from a Miami Herald article posted by SKYDRIFTER:

"Those who didn't know how to use the chutes went head first, witnesses said."

Just one minute, just one effing minute!!! No, I cannot ever remember having been told to slide feet first. I can't even remember reading anything about sliding feet first. But what I do remember, and is (or should be) bloody obvious, even to the *illiterate*, is the picture in the safety information card in the seat front pocket, the same picture that I believe was in *every* safety card I have ever seen - the one that clearly shows people going *feet first* down the evacuation slides.

Any bets on whether anyone who suffered certain *specific* injuries (say to hands, arms, or face) as a result of sliding head first, an action which appears to have been the result of his or her own *stupidity*, will sue the maker of the aircraft and/or the airline because of these injuries? Grrrrrr.

My sympathy goes out the colleagues, family and friends of the purser on the flight.

[Rollingthunder]

I submit that us (in the business) flying in the cabin are not role models for the pax. I do many flights a year in aircraft I know, different configurations included. I check what specific aircraft I'm booked on, what snags and what MEL's are logged. I count seat tops to nearest exit, I know where my life jacket is, I know how to don O2 mask, I know how to open doors/exits if required. I check that the seat safety card is there in the pocket (MOT requirement). And I can fasten a seatbelt.After several hundred flights, I watch the FA's safety demonstration if she's cute.

[Flygor]

Pax domina,
As an FA with a major UK carrier your post reminds me of our manual and training, it says: A slide will accept passengers side on, face down or head first with little or no discomfort.

In an emergency situation if evacuation is required then our training is that we must evacuate in the shortest possible time, therefore I would not interfere with a passenger who looked like they would jump head first out of the door. I only wish that all passengers displayed the common sense that you do.

More relative to this thread, My airline usually carries out the emergency procedures through the video system, with the cabin crew pointing out exits at the appropriate time. I have noticed however that passengers seem to pay far more attention if the demonstration is carried out live. Also pax seem to pay far more attention when there has been a publicised accident, its just unfortunate that it takes a tragedy for people to take notice.

[This message has been edited by Flygor (edited 23 November 2000).]

[mik]

Once things have quietened down a bit after boarding, I usually take a quick walk towards the rear of the a/c to look at the door & see how it opens. (I check the nearest door forward as I walked past it)

On the last flight I took, one of the cabin crew asked me what I was looking at, so I told her. Strangely enough, I didn't get a strange look.

Mik

-- 20-odd years ago I was in a hall of residence which had a very minor fire. Seeing and experiencing the panic caused by the smoke was highly education.

[You splitter]

I have to say that there is one thing that I have always thought strange about this whole issue of paying attention to the safety briefing. We (the airlines) ask our cabin crew to hand out a newspaper to the passengers and then ask them to "pay careful attention to the following safety briefing".

If you want their attention, don't give 'em a paper first!

[Lucifer]

I have to admit, being a relatively frequent flyer, although I stop reading or whatever I am doing, I will always try to listen to the safety brief, but invariably switch off and become a little complecant. I do however look at the card, and I also have a quick feel to see if there is a lifejacket still under my seat. I do know what to do, and how to open the doors etc if I needed to, and I listen attentively on new aircraft types or configerations. I also think others may pay more attention if they are sitting next to somebody who is at least looking in the direction of the cabin crew.

In addition, I do know some crew who have not briefed me on escape if I have had to sit in the flightdeck. If I am in an Airbus, I do not know how to get out as it is not my aircraft type, and I appreciate even though knowing how to use it, being told where the oxygen is and how to put it on.

[EGCC Rwy 24]

One of Nigel's lot made me very angry on the BA1383 yesterday! Fair enough, she was travelling as a passenger, but she was in her uniform, so very recognisable. She was sitting in seat 11B and had a large morning newspaper which she continued to read and wave in the air during the safety briefing!

By holding the paper up, she was obstructing the view for other passengers. All power to Chris the poor lady trying to actually deliver the briefing standing just abeam row 11. She took every opportunity to give 11B an icy stare, but to no avail.

This, in my view, is not the way to encourage passengers to pay attention!

[GalleyWench]

This thread reminds me of a flight long ago. While doing the 'safety dance' 2 business pax chatted away loudly and ingored my jewels of safety wisdom. They laughingly asked me after the demo if it bothered me that they ignored the demo. I told them'not at all, I know how to get out of this aircraft with my eyes closed'. Silence...a moment later they got out their safety cards as did several pax within earshot.

[SevenFiftySeven]

I have to admit being like Lucifer. I am English, but live in the USA. I fly on approx 6 aircraft per month, usually with the same airlines/aircraft types. Despite knowing the safety briefing inside out and backwards, I always make a point of reading the card, checking to see if the life jacket is there and listening. I also count the rows to the nearest exit and make sure I would know how to open it. Why? We'll I'm not a nervous flyer - I love flying, but I have been involved in two emergencies, one of which got very hairy. Belive me - when we were told that there was a problem and we may have to evac immediately on landing, EVERYBODY started looking at their cards and asking the FA's questions - right at the point where they needed to sort out other things.
I know first hand what it is like under these circumstances and if I can give myself a better chance by paying attention for a couple of minutes at the start of each flight, I will.
If people don't want to pay attention, then I'm not going to feel quily about stepping over their dead bodies on my way out of the aircraft.

[Maint99]

If you want to save your sorry a$$, PAY ATTENTION to the briefing!! I have been a maintenance engineer for 13 years, and have flown all over the place, usually in the same types (DHC-8, BAe 146, 737). It pays to listen. In an ongoing attempt to increase your chance of survival in an incident, the briefing is, from time to time, modified. If things have changed since the last time you flew, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?? I cannot stress the importance of this strongly enough.

Besides...its only polite to listen when someone is talking to you. It sends my wife into fits when she is talking to me and I have my nose stuck in a book!! :)

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"You want it on the gate for WNEN??"

[The Sleeping Pax]

MCT-AUH last night. Actually bumped up to 1st. Two Pilots sitting in Front of me from an airline which I won't name but if you re-arrange the words Air and Martin, then you'll have a good idea! They actually watched the video, Full marks! Bad marks though to the pilot who didn't nudge the Pax sitting next to him who read his newspaper all through the video.

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Wake me up when we get there

[RATBOY]

Distinctly remember flying from MCO to DCA on Air Florida the day after they lost one of their 737s into the river just after takeoff from DCA. You would have thought there was going to be one he** of a final exam because all paxs paid strict attention to the cabin brief, which was the best I have ever seen (included demo of lifejackets/cushons). Most paxs I saw checked to see there really was a life jacket under their seat. Maybe it was seeing the live TV of a pax giving the end of the rope from the hovering helicopter to the stewardess so she could be rescued before he went under the ice got people's attention a little.

After 25 years of flying commercial as pax I always count the seat backs, and should have a smoke hood (but don't), and always read the cards, look at the doors and try to give myself and family the best chance I can. And always give full attention to the brief. The subject of smoke hoods has been covered fairly thoroughly on another thread, but what sold me was after a meeting asking a cabin safety research fellow from the FAA Technical Center where they burn them for "fun" whether smoke hoods were any good. Ho opened his briefcase and showed me his. 'Nuff said.

[Goldie]

If so few are reading the safety card how about the same info being printed on the placemat that the meal comes out on, sure different for each a/c type but the fundermentals could go there & be a good refresher.

Magazines that I have read on board always come in a cover apply the same principle here

[Deb Riechmann]

I'm a reporter for Associated Press in Washington. I happen to be doing a story about whether people listen to the flight attendants' safety message at the beginning of each flight. If it would be alright to contact you, please send me an e-mail at [email protected]

Deb Riechmann
Associated Press
2021 K St. NW Suite 600
Washington, D.C. 20006
202-776-9479

[PAXboy]

As a regular pax over 35 years, my response is like most of the others. I check the machine and type and if a regular, just keep a passing eye on the briefing.

I check exits for type and was interested to notice on the BD A320 last week that the over wing doors are hinged at the top and swing out and STAY, rather than having to be discarded. Sounds sensible as the hatch could damage someone or a raft.

However, I appear to be the only one commenting in this thread that DOES have a smoke hood!

My first was a flat pack type that would give minimal assistance but was all that was available in the early 90s (as I recall).

Earlier this year, I bought the Evac-U8 from the www.airsafe.com (http://www.airsafe.com) web site. This is a much more substantial device that will give 20 mins safe breathing. Onviously it is bulkier but I have it to hand in hotel rooms as well.

I also carry a torch, the slim metal MagiLite. They sit together in a bag at my feet to be got out together.

Another safety point? On a long haul, I never ease my shoes leave alone remove them, until we are established in the cruise. When we have to dash across hot tarmac (JNB and CPT for starters!) I do not want to have burned feet. Also, shoes will help me to climb over the backs of seats and leave a good imprint on the twits that are looking for someone to help them!!

I will secure my shoes as soon as we start the let down and be aware of the phase of flight and attitude of the a/c. I notice that many pax have no idea when the touch down is near. If it is a 'firmish' one (I know that no PPRuNer would make a hard landing!) they are jerked back to reality, often exclaiming out loud!!

If a problem is going to occur then we know that departure/landing is the most likely and I consider it a vital part of my safety (and that of any companion) to be aware as early as possible that something might be wrong.

Incidentally, when on the f/d if invited to sit in the j/seat - if they do not tell me about Oxygen and escape, I ask!

Safe Journey everyone!

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A window seat on the sunny side of the aircraft, please!

[frigatebird1]

Apart from the cost implication, my airline don't carry smoke hoods for passengers because, if they were needed, in the time it would take for everyone to locate and don them we'd have everyone off anyway. (90 seconds for 344 pax on 767 300 with only half the exits available)

As for pax not paying attention to briefings, being cabin crew it doesn't bother me, I'm sitting next to a door. When I fly as a passenger however, I always make sure whoever is likely to hinder my swift exit pays attention.

[Cyrano]

FB's reference to evacuating all the pax in 90 seconds through half the exits (the standard for certification, I know) reminds me of a comment from someone who is supposed to deal with these things for a living: he said, "Yes, the aircraft manufacturer needs to demonstrate getting everyone out through half the exits in 90 seconds, but the manufacturer gets to choose which exits he'll use."

Can anyone confirm that the choice of exits in certification tests lies with the manufacturer? Obviously if all the (say) starboard exits all down a 747's cabin are available, it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to evacuate quickly than where for example the front exits are all u/s and everyone has to head for the back...

[Deep Cover Gecko]

FB, you say that cost is a reason for not having smoke hoods for every pax, as well as the fact that the a/c would be evacuated in 90 seconds. How about the fact that this thread deals with whether or not pax pay attention to the demo? Surely the pax who aren't paying enough attention to know how to get out of the a/c won't be helped by a smoke hood as they won't have been paying enough attention to work out how to use it.

[flypastpastfast]

Some people I knew who don't travel much said they don't bother with the safety briefing because if the plane crashes, they know they don't have a chance. I corrected them on this regarding crash survival, but I do wonder how many passengers don't listen because they know very little about the chance of surviving an 'incident'. There is a perception amongst some passengers that if it goes down, you can kiss your ass goodbye.


I don't think all people have the same reasons for ignoring it.

Any flight I am a passenger on, I get a seat near an exit, and calculate the number of dimwits I will have to jump across to get out. In a way it is almost like evolution, as those who won't get out on time are either not physically fast enough or are too dim to have watched the safety breifing.

Survival of the fittest.

I do think some airline have to address some points relating to this, particularly in relation to space around emergency exits. Budget airlines like Go et.al. have seats adjacent to the overwing exits, and there really is not much space for getting out - didn't this come up after the manchester runway fire with a BA? (please correct me if I'm mistaken) holiday flight which went on fire?


Airlines seem to be constantly pressurising the regulatory authorities to increase the number of passengers and seat rows between exits, and of course with the forthcoming A380, I really do wonder how well that could be evacuated. I personally remain to be convinced on that one.

[This message has been edited by flypastpastfast (edited 01 July 2001).]

[ammdolly]

Having been Cabin Crew for over 12 years now, it still alarms me how many people do not pay attention to the Safety demo, I have in the past [and will again in the future] stopped the demo and demanded that pax pay attention. I do not care if they are uninterested in getting out, but i will not have any other pax killed by there ignorance or stupidity. I have been unfortunate enough to have been involved in a number of onboard incidents including decompression and 2 evacuations. In the decompression I actually witnessed 1 guy looking around and pushing his mask out of his way and trying to carry on reading his newspaper! Regarding the question of overwing exits, all overwing exits must have enough space between the 2 rows for the pax to use the exits, and yes this space was increased after Manchester in order for this too happen. No airlines have seats blocking the overwing exits, yes they have seats either side, all airlines do,not just the budget ones, who I think get unfair treatment. Let us not forget that the budget airlines in the UK cut costs on customer service and not safety.Manchester also resulted in a number of other safety recommendations being implimented as did the kegworth incident. Regarding smoke hoods, we as crew have a job to get pax to keep there seatbelts on, especially inflight during turbulance, I actually had quoted to me the other day that by demanding a pax remained seated during turbulance and not allowing them to visit the loo was against the new UK human rights act. What chance do we have in getting them to use correctly and safely a smoke hood? It really is sad but as hard as we try as crew, most pax only consider safety when it is too late. Myself, I would like the saftey demo to include a video of some major airline disasters and the aftermath of them, then maybe I could get there attention for just a couple of seconds longer to show them something that I hope they will never need but that might one day save there life.

Happy and safe flying

[mutt]

PAXBoy,

I guess that your smokehood is one of those in a cannister which inflates? Can I ask how do you get it through airport security?

I had a big discussion with Manchester Airport security years ago because I tried to carry a life jacket (with CO2 cannister) on-board an Aer Lingus flight. They tried to reassure me that EI actually had their own!!

They just couldnt understand that I needed it in the C150 which I had just flown to England.

Luckily the EI Captain did appreciate that it was needed for single engine overwater flights.

Mutt. :)

[Evening Star]

Worthy subject. The trouble is that it is in the wrong place. Those of us who are SLF and interested enough to read PPRuNe are, I suppose almost by definition, more likely to pay attention to the safety briefing. (In fact, the last time I flew to Belfast City in an ATR full of suits, the cabin crew doing the demonstration seemed almost pathetically grateful that I paid attention to the briefing!) We are also more likely to be aware that it is good practice to count seats, check to see if the life jacket is there, door operation and so on.

We can talk about trampling on the clueless as they work out how to undo their belt, but do all know that is a joke, don't we? It is a pretty mean feat of agility to clamber over up to two people at any time (especially in Y class), let alone when everybody is trying to get to the exits in an emergency. Be blowed to survival of the fittest therefore, I would feel more comfortable about the message getting home and not risking impeding my survival. Is Goldies idea of repeating the safety card on the place mat as a way of reinforcing the message so bad? Also, has anybody from the USA replied to Deb Riechmann?

[SLF]

Guilty, I'm afraid!

I check the nearest exits when settling in, and ignore the safety briefing. I know there's a safety card in the seat pocket. I know how to put on seat belt, that it is fastened like this and opened like this. I can pull an oxygen mask towards me, I know to do mine first before helping others. I can put on a life jacket, fasten it at the side, I know that it has a light and whistle to attract attention. Its under my seat (I hope!) or the armrest. I know about child seatbelts, life cots etc

Face it, 90% of the briefing doesn't vary at all from airline to airline or plane to plane. If I'm flying a new leg, plane or airline I look at the safety card.


------------------
29A please!

[Jungle Strip]

haven't read through the whole thread, so please forgive any obsolete remarks or repetitions.
When I trained (as an FA) we were tipped off that the passengers with their heads most deeply buried in the newspaper were likely to be the nervous ones...

All passengers think they are SPECIAL and INVULNERABLE. That's why it's more important to them to appear Cool than to up their survival chances. See also: leaping to their feet as soon as rubber hits runway..

Thanks 10W for pointing out that, if nothing else, courtesy comes in here. To my mind, if someone is standing 2 ft in front of you doing something you have been asked to take a few minutes to watch, it is only polite to put down the paper/book/girlfriend etc

On most flights, there is a substantial minority of people who make a point of smirking at us ("ooh look, he's going to do that silly "Exits" gesture again..") or even openly s******ing.

Yes, folks. You are COOL and we are IMPRESSED. :rolleyes:

[Jungle Strip]

Postscript:

Interesting. Couldn't fathom why the s-word, I used in the last, meaningly only to laugh softly but unpleasantly, got asterisked.

Have just realised it must be because it contains the sub-word "n*gger"...!

I'm starting to agree with those who say Pprune Towers is getting a bit PC-megalomaniac in its old age.. Presumably words like "st*ff" (as in stick, or employees), p*ddy (as in Chinese rice field), itinerary (as in, a word which is potentially offensive to Italians), p*megranate and asp*c, to name but a tiny few, are also bleeped out.

Bl*mey.

[SLF]

Good thing you're not from Scvnthorpe!

------------------
29A please!

[GalleyWench]

Cyrano, To answer your question on the last page about evacuating in 90 seconds...... I was one of the cabin crew that performed the evac that got the 777 certified by the FAA. The doors do not all work (one was planned to be inop but we did not know that)and there was difficulty in getting the pax out in the 90 seconds with the FAA minimum crew suggested- I think it was seven. The FAA minimum crew on the plane had to be upped by one to certify the plane. Keep in mind that the evac was performed with 'passengers' that were Boeing/United employees and their family and friends- so hence more savvy than the average pax. I do not know who selected which door failed to open but frankly it was immaterial which one when you evacuate into a hanger.

[Celtic Emerald]

Well I can't admit to something I don't do because I always follow the safety demo & study the card for a while after the demo is over. I'd want to be safety conscious because I like travelling in the cockpit & they don't want non-safety conscious assh*les up there :mad:.

Airlines advise as many of you have wisely pointed out that you should count the rows from the nearest exit after you've boarded because in the event of an accident the cabin could be filled with smoke & your vision greatly impaired so this COULD save your life. They also advise choosing a row close to an exit and an aisle seat (why oh why do I always put a nice view first) :confused: to increase the likelihood of survivability. The one thing I worry about with the safety demos is there so theoretical which I think is part of the problem, in a real situation where the theory has to be put to practise without the practical experience pax are likely to get very confused in an already frightening situation.

Emerald

[The Sleeping Pax]

:cool: sorry to be a bore but I'm totally with slasher on this question. I faced the same situation as he seems to have had and my reply wa that I didn't want to have to climb over the fools body in the event of an accident. I would love for the crew to stop the presentation of the video and ask that passengers watch and start the presentation again. I have worked in the oil, gas and chemical industry for 35 years and safety at all times is paramount. The sad thing is that I see at times flight crew travelling in uniform ignoring the presentation. I would have thought that these would be the people to set the example.

Besides, isn't it fun watching the people doing a piss poor parody of sign language in a one square inch box amazing? I realise that loosing one of your sences increases the power of another sence but hey.......the deaf must have amazing eyesight.

[Self Loading Freight]

Yes, I always pay attention during the safety briefing. Yes, I check the lifejacket, count the seats to the exit, read the seatback card.

Extra marks to companies like Virgin who try and make the briefing interesting or amusing, and to crew who liven things up. It makes a big difference: people really don't pay attention to boring things.

Also, what about people who don't know much (if any) English? With modern seatback technology, it would be very possible to have safety briefings in hundreds of languages stored away for recall on demand. I bet if people could rerun the briefing, there'd be a surge of interest following any noticeable turbulence...

R

[henry crun]

I'm the same as most who have replied in that I always watch the briefing, study the card, and know exactly where the nearest two exits are. However SLF has raised a valid point about different languages. A while back I was on a full 747 London-Bombay and was one of only a handful of white faces in cattle class. The rest were from india or thereabouts and from the conversations that were taking place around me and the numbers that I helped with their landing cards, few if any, had anything but a minimal grasp of English. Despite this the crew went through their safety briefing in English and French and I'm willing to bet that 95% of the passengers wouldn't have understood a word of it or realised that they could have got some essential information from the diagrams on the safety cards. So, what is the answer in situations like this, there just isn't time to get the message out between leaving the ramp and take off. Perhaps recorded messages in several languages via the headphones would be one way ?.

[PAXboy]

Firstly - to mutt, sorry not to reply earlier but I have not been on PPRUNE for a while. :(

Yes, the smoke hood IS a canister but I have had no questions. I started with it in May and have been through: DTW, JFK, LHR, LTN, EDI, IOM, PMI, MAN an never a peep from anyone. I can only presume that, since it is designed for use in aircraft, it is of all plastic construction. Perhaps it looks like a bottle of water on the screen?

Secondly, on the continuing debate. I have done 16 round trips of LTN/EDI with EZY and their -300s in the last seven months and the next starts tonight! I have to admit that I do not pay full attention during demo... :eek:

On walking out to the machine, I check if it is a -700 but these are usually deployed on the longer runs. I still count rows and check life jacket. Incidentally, I was VERY surprised when, last Friday night, the pax next to me checked for life jacket! It turned out that he is an orthopedic surgeon and travels a lot. He must see enough broken bodies!

Whilst keeping a weather ear for any changes to the demo a couple of weeks ago, I asked the pax next to me why she was ignoring it (we had been chatting beforehand). Turns out she was a frequent flyer but still nervous. "If we crash in the water, we're all going to be dead anyway." I decided not to challenge her on the logic of it or the 'crash on water', rather than 'land' on water!

But I taught her to count rows and how to use the headrest from the seat infront as an emergency smoke mask, by using water/tea/coffee.

Back to LTN, I go!

:rolleyes:

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: PAXboy ]

[You want it when?]

Well I was frequent flyer - and I followed the demonstrations. I once even had a BA stewardess come up to my row and say I was the only one listening in business class so in the event of a crash would the others follow me <G>. I've been in a 757 (I think) that was in poow WX and during the descent for Edinburgh all the masks dropped - I had mine on ASAP even though I guessed we were below 10,000. 2 minutes is your life not worth that (as well as it being good manners).

[PAXboy]

You're right, of course. I will do my best to correct my ways.

It occurs to me that another good reason to have used the mask, even if you had been at very low, was the chance to practice with the mask and how to put it on and so forth!

[QTSOA]

I fly regularly, usually on domestic routes on the east coast of Australia, and occasionally international routes to the UK, Europe, USA, and Asia. Early last year, I boarded a flight aboard JAL from Brisbane to Sydney through the international terminal, as it made my connection to the USA easier.
The aircraft arrived late from somewhere in Japan.
I among many other passengers were surprised to experience the plane take off, (after only a 2-3 minute taxi) without any safety briefing at all. Furthermore, all the inflight announcements were made in (I assume) Japanese. The majority of passengers were english speaking, and connecting onwards to other destinations. The plane was full, stunk of vomit, and there was no inflight service at all. The flight attendants remained seated for the entire flight, despite smooth conditions. The landing was among the most awful I had ever experienced. I could complain all day about that flight, but I guess what I really want to know is if this is a regular occuernce... I know they are legally reqiured to make announcements in english, but there werent any. I have experienced a similar occurence recently in france, where upon landing, there were problems with the aircraft and the crews emergency instructions were all given in french.
Anyone else ever experienced the same?

P.S. Commend Ansett after a recent flight with them. They went out of the way to get everyones attention during safety announcements by involving a couple of passengers. It was funny at the time, yet very effective!

[Crepello]

I work in the offshore gas industry, where we get to sit through 15 minutes of safety video before every strimmer flight. Believe me, the 2 minute briefing on a commercial flight is a welcome change, and the presenters are (usually) better looking...

I'd an interesting experience a few months ago on a CityFlyer RJ100 from LGW to AMS. Boarded in the normal manner, checked under the seat and - no lifejacket. This isn't unusual on AMS flights (don't get me started on certain types of tourists :mad: ) so I called the steward and arranged a replacement.

Thought that was it, until we pushed back and taxied towards the r/way. The skipper made the usual announcements on the Passenger Address, explained the short delay, then continued with "special congratulations to the passenger in 7A :o for his excellent safety awareness, that's the standard we'd like to see more of, would you all check under your seats, etc." Made me wonder why it's not part of the f/a's pre-boarding checks?

Ironically, I'd spent the day in London at Final Board recruitment for wannabe BA pilots. Suffice to say, I'm still in the old job :(

Crepello

PS - PAXboy, I'd not heard of the emergency smoke mask trick. I presume you rip the cover off, soak it in liquid and wear it like a mask?

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Crepello ]

[radeng]

Read this thread with interest. I've done about 850,000 miles as SLF, and tend to take some notice of the briefing. But I've never checked to see if the life jacket is there. Next Monday, I'll check that when I get on BA776......and pay full attention to the briefing. If necessary, I'll tell other pax to shut up so I can hear it, too.

So you're never too old learn......

[Adrianna]

Watch Listen and learn and this is just the place for it
How many of you people count rows and oops parden me if you climb over me
But remember I will be the one on the floor counting rows getting to the exit Because if you climb over the seats People. ( Smoke will get in your eyes ) So remember next time you watch the drill In case of fire drop to the floor and count rows

[Bally Heck]

If you guys ever travel in the cabin with positioning aircrew, (cabin or flight crew) watch whether they pay attention. 99.9% do and they fly more frequently than any "well travelled passenger" It is both good manners and good sense!

[low flyer]

I always listen - partly because it might save my life and partly because the crew are doing it for my benefit (they already know how to get out in an emergency) and it seems only common courtesy.

I've seen a brief being stopped while the crew member went over to a pax and asked him to pay attention.

I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw years ago - an aircraft was falling out of the sky woth one wing hanging off. Coming from the flight deck was a speech bubble: "For those of you too bloody blase to listen the first time, I shall now repeat the safety announcement" :D

[cabinkitten]

To be honest I don't think airlines really want to underline the possibility of an abnormal flight. Granted they do the minimum and the mandatory... a quick run down of the emergency exits... here's your drop down mask and then bingo hows about a glass of Evian while you stow your 4 stone Louis Vuitton trunkette in the bin above my crew seat.

Would passengers I wonder (rather than just taking our word for it) appreciate a printed 'reasons why' or 'further safety' card. Maybe how to tell whether your 02 mask is actually delivering the stuff, how to access it should it not deploy...why bags should not be placed behind the legs (Kegworth crash reports)...

Would passengers appreciate this or would it just be too much unpleasant information?

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: cabinkitten ]

[PAXboy]

Hi Crepello,

Yes, the tip I was given is:
Pull the headrest material from your own seat (or that in front). Typically, they have only a strip of Velcro (Hook & Loop) fastening at the top edge, with the lower hanging down the seat.

Water, tea, coffee, whatever liquid you can grab will help. The material is often quite thin and so folding it double might be needed to provide a smaller mesh.

I doubt that there is enough material to tie it around the head and it will have to be held across mouth and nose by hand.

Although it can be a bit of a hassle always taking the smoke mask with me, I reckon that it is worth the hassle. IF the day comes when smoke fills the cabin - I know that it will happen very fast.

[PAXboy]

cabinkitten - I think that you are absolutely correct. Sadly.

Airlines will not make the risks more explicit unless forced - and that is not going to happen. Whilst they can point out that it is relatively safe, nothing is going to be done.

This week, The Independent (a UK daily newspaper of quality) had an article about the 4,500 people killed every year on the roads in France. Mainly because existing laws on drink, driving and speed are not enforced. On the same day it carried the news of the impending test flight of the Concorde. This was to fix the problem of the deaths of 109 people.

The problem is always the single death versus the multiple deaths. If the French motorists clubbed together and had a REALLY big car smash (say about a Jumbo's worth) then they might not die in vain.
:eek:

[brockenspectre]

Over the years I have flown as SLF on several different aircraft types to many short-haul and long-haul destinations in both Business and Economy (not First yet!!). Like most in this thread, I pay attention to the safety brief and have counted rows and always ask for an aisle seat (this because I am large and long and like the leg room when in Economy). I have found that more people in Economy pay attention to safety briefings than in Business. In fact there have been many occasions (on British and other nationality airlines) when in Business I have made a point of putting down my book/magazine/newspaper and focussing on the brief to have people either side of me give me pitying looks and continue their reading. As a matter of courtesy to the cabin crew plus I value my own life, I will always pay attention to the brief and will, as I have a couple of times before, tell other SLF to "shush, I am trying to listen"!

On another note, also mentioned above, I really HATE when folks ignore the request to ensure cellphones are off. On one flight (in Business) I was heading for a Scandinavian country, the aircraft was taxying to the hold and the guy next to me had his cellphone ring. Instead of looking embarrassed (no, he wasn't Brit!) and turning it off, he answered the call. I just said, quite loudly, "excuse me but you need to turn your cellphone off"...he ignored me..I pressed the call button and fortunately the cabin crew who had been trying to ignore the situation (yes..I am serious.. a non-Brit airline and the cabin crew were ignoring this big-shot on his cellphone) came and asked him to turn the telephone off. He finished his call, glared at me without saying anything and as soon as we had taken off and the seatbelt sign went out he moved to another row (there were spare seats). I think I was the only female in Business that day, I was also I suspect the only Brit, and the number of bad looks I received was shocking. When the cabin staff came by with the menu cards I smiled and apologised for causing any problem, and he smiled back and said "thank you for your concern, it was no problem". I had asked to see the flightdeck (my usual, ask once and let it ride) and was invited up and found both the RHS and LHS delighted to meet the passenger who had enabled the cabin staff to deal with a cellphone issue. Apparently this airline has had a lot of difficulty in the past getting its Business passengers to turn phones off - being abusive to crew etc - but because I was an "equal" (well...I am not sure I was thought of that by the big-shots as I was in casual-smart clothes and not a suit) the cabin staff could deal with the issue! Needless to say my landing in Arlanda was in the best room in the house and I left with an airline carrier containing complimentary champagne and chocolates PLUS my bags were gotten from the bin and handed to me as I left the flight deck and I was first off the aircraft!!!

Interesting insight for me..maybe I have been naive in the past but it never occurred to me before that cabin (and flight deck) crew would NOT be in charge of the aircraft or have their requests ignored/challenged.

Despite no longer working in banking, I have since flown several times with the same airline and realise that boorish and unpleasant behaviour from Biz SLF is the norm...maybe when I was in banking I was too preoccupied with the reason for my trip to pay close attention (except for the safety brief)..I don't know.

Why is it that people whose lives are not much different, but who are being paid to fly, once on board begin to regard themselves as superior and cabin staff as "servants". How many of us, in this day an age, actually live in a house with servants?

:cool:

[What_does_this_button_do?]

I'll admit that I only came over to read this thread as it was in R&N.

I am amazed, no, shocked at the BA safety video. It's nothing short of awful in my opinion.

It shows you all the procedures (which is good) other than one point. It follows one woman through the events. Nothing wrong with that, but at the point she needs to exit with the lifejacket on she's standing at top of the chute blowing into the jacket, blowing the whistle, checking the light and being generally very slow and more importantly an obstruction. I think BA should review this part.

Yes, I always listen to the annoucement and demonstration; always have done and have told a few people in front of me to put there papers down so I could see the demo - also have told a few people to switch of mobiles whilst we're taxying to the gate.

I'm sirprised at the different companies and the different demos. BA mainline show you to do the seatbelt as number 1, Brit Regional do it last....

[Pandora]

I've decided to raise my head on this forum once more since the last time I posted here I was told as a pilot I couldn't possibly fly more than MIB does as a Pax :confused:

As I position around Europe with work I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that most (I didn't say all) pax switch their brains, if not their mobiles off at passport control. I haven't seen one pax yet watching a safety brief when I position in civvies. When I position in uniform it is another matter altogether. I notice that as I sit and patiently watch the briefing, the pax around me all sheepishly stop what they are doing and listen.

However, no amount of uniform stops pax beside me leaving their mobiles on all flight and leaping up to grab their overweight bags while we taxi in.

Just to give an example of the amount of pax who listen, I once flew with captain to Germany who thought it hilarious that the English word for a certain weather condition meant 'poo' in German. He gave weather/'poo' updates every 10 minutes and the CC were almost wetting themselves laughing, and not one of the 60-odd German speaking pax we had even batted an eyelid. The dispatcher at the other end did though. :D

[OldAg84]

As SLF and an aviation buff, I pretty much know where the exits are and what to do. If possible, I try to sit next to the overwing or other exits, depending on A/C type.

I don't know how others feel, but I feel safer on certain A/C vs. others. Granted, it may not be statistically valid, or based on facts, but for safety I much prefer the 757 to the F100 (waddya mean there's no exits after the wing??!!).

I'm ashamed to admit I have been a little blase about the announcement at times. I think what scares me is not so much what people will do in the event of an emergency- but will they panic? You read stories of pax getting their bags from the overhead, etc. Unbelievable!

As a former firefighter, I will say the first time in a burn building was impressive. Totally disorienting and frightening, even though deep down you know it's a controlled situation.

Let's hope none of us ever finds out how bad it can really be.

[PAXboy]

Pandora - could not agree more. When they start standing up before we are on the stand (despite announcements) I always hope the pilot flying will stamp on the brakes hard. :D

However, a new point in this matter occured to me on Sunday evening. I was on BD from LHR to EDI (A320). As I am not on these very much at the moment, I took extra care with the demo. Incidentally, in Biz they were just as 'heads down' as normal. Although the oriental gentleman adjacent to me, did look through his card.

My point is - BD use a video show with reasonable cartoons/diagrams and a clear voice commentary BUT there is music throughout!! I suspect that the people who make these are young and do not wear a hearing aid!

Although my hearing is still good, I have a friend in her mid 40s who has worn an aid for many years due to an inherited hearing defect. My father, in his last years, wore two aids (result of noisy a/c and their guns in the war!). The majority of hearing aids simply amplify EVERYTHING. Music and all! :eek: