Slingsby Skylark 2b - Thoughts?

[tiger26isfinals]

Folks,

I am currently looking at purchasing the above glider and wonder if anyone here has any experiences? Things to look for etc when having a look would be appreciated too.

Regards,

Tiger

[rusty sparrow]

That takes me back - I flew one about 35 years ago. Nice vintage glider.

[robin]

Preferred the Skylark 4, except the rigging of it.

[kestrel539]

A few key points.
1 Take an "adult" with you to look at it
2 If it smells "musty" walk away
3 Fabric...press it gently with a finger tip; if it forms a ring, walk away
4 On gliders this age, the trailer is the most important thing.
5 Rigging is easy, but the centre section is a bit heavy . ( not as bad a a kestrel wing root though)
6 Flying.Stable, easy to teach yourself cloud flying, has the usual slingsby nod at the top of a winch launch, just release the back pressure. Dosent soar as well as a K8, but will outglide same.
For your first glider, if the price is right, you will have bags of fun for little money. Will get you your silver C.
Have FUN

[cats_five]

Preusmably you have discussed this with the CFI where you fly - if not do so before going any further with buying a glider.

Has this glider got a current CoA? Be extra careful if it doesn't.

Have you had a BGA inspector check it? If not, do so, and try to find one with an interest in older wood gliders especially if it doesn't have a CoA. My club has one, but I have no idea if most other clubs do.

Have you tried rigging it? Rigging aids can take the strain out of it, but the Skylark at my club seems to take over an hour to rig and another hour to derig.

Have you sat in it? You need to fit, have a decent view and be comfortable. If not, walk away. Quite a bit can be done with dynafoam and the like, but everything has it's limits. BTW you should be sitting on a layer of dynafoam or similar - if it has a soft squishy seat cushion you need to replace it.

Plus all the other good advice below. Especially about the trailer - if it's not roadworthy don't bother. Check it all - look at the underframe, check the lights, check the tyres etc. Glider trailer tyres tend to crack on the sidewalls and also develop flats. I got a new tyre for £35 last year (ATS, Brackley) but if you need three of them that's over £100 and I'm guessing you are on a pretty tight budget.

Make a list of everything else you will need. If it has a parachute, when was it last packed? Does it have some kind of data logger? You will need something if you want to do Silver badge flights - and if you don't I can't really see the point in having your own glider. You might need rigging aids - whilst ingenuity will go a long way, money comes into it at some point if only to express gratitude for help received. (getting the rivets fixed on my trailer cost a rather good bottle of single malt)

Also look at your annual costs - glider parking, insurance and CoA are the main ones.

Finally, how old are you? Younger folks are starting to get caught with not having the group on their driving licence without doing some extra. (old folks like me have a list of groups as long as our arm!) And do you have a car with a towbar?

(edit)
I forgot to say that it's far too easy with a glider of this age to end up buying a project glider rather than one you can start flying and have fun with. It's also easy to end up with a glider that will never, ever fly again no matter how much time and energy is put into it.

Now if a project glider is also your idea of fun, I'd suggest you need a mentor who is a wood glider enthusiast so you start with something that is salvegeable and end up with something that's airworthy.

[Pegpilot]

"...easy to teach yourself cloud flying...."

Not sure I'd recommend that without having had the benefit of some instruction/practice with a safety pilot first....

[cats_five]

"...easy to teach yourself cloud flying...."

Not sure I'd recommend that without having had the benefit of some instruction/practice with a safety pilot first....

Blimey - missed that! Guess it was said on the ground the Skylark (probably) has speed-limiting airbrakes. Personally I don't suggest anyone does deliberate cloud flying and agree absolutely with your recomendation.

[Arclite01]

As I recall:

Good

- Great fun to fly, very slow in roll, soars really well but does not penetrate that well, awesome brakes
- safe for low time pilot

Bad

- Heavy to rig
- 3 piece wing is always awkward

Ugly

- there was an issue with sternposts on Skylarks 2,3 & 4. There should be inspections holes in the side of the fin (at the base) and inspection records (I seem to remember it was a mandatory and I had to borrow a boroscope to check one)

- Difficult to get any spares for them nowadays

Hope this helps

Arc

[glider12000]

I flew a Skylark 2, but was only a quick bash around the circuit. As has been said, has a tendancy to nod a bit on the winch, but something that will be easy to control.

Meanwhile I`ve just purchased a share in an Oly2b! :ok:

[x933]

The early Skylarks should be looked at as a plaything - a good, cheap way of getting into the air and exploring your local area. It's not a serious cross country machine - Ka6's will eat it for breakfast, and rigging it is a team sport - also expect to have no friends when you land out as without good rigging aits it's hard work in a muddy field.

If you just want a toy, then it'll be fine. If you've aspirations of becoming a top cross country pilot, you'll outgrow it in very short order. It'll get around a 50k - on a good day - but you'll work hard for it. Can't remember much about cabin comfort but if other aircraft of that era that i've flown are anything to go by you'll hate it after 5hrs.

[aviate1138]

g12k......
"Meanwhile I`ve just purchased a share in an Oly2b!"

Good move g12k. Three of us bought one from the Polish Air Force Assoc. at Lasham in 1966. Beautifully maintained by the Poles, we had such fun in the 2B.

Did 6hrs and gain of height one sunny Lasham day. Not the most comfortable seating position but a joy to fly, especially in marginal lift conditions. Would thermal on a cow f*rt.

Great glider and being surrounded by helpful Poles was a bonus. We were made "almost Poles" and got to fly their up to date machines as well. Even in '66/7 the Oly was real vintage stuff. :)

[astir 8]

Fin spar inspection at base technical notice TN107/T50 was issued 08/87 and followed an abused Skylark shedding its fin.

The BGA website summary says that it is annual and after heavy landings, ground loops etc. The written TN as originally issued states that it was a one off requirement and then mandatory after a heavy landing or ground loop. I've checked this with the VGC technical officer who says that the written TN is applicable and not the BGA summary.

The TN demanded the removal of a sizeable chunk of ply at the base of the fin to allow inspection and it would have been a major annual effort. The fact that the original ispection has been carried out (in 1987/88) should be recorded in the glider logbook.

Having said that, given the present day availability of fibre optic borescopes a peer into the area under the fin via a small hole is however a very good idea as part of the CofA.

P.S. I can rig a Skylark 4 in 15 minutes and derig and have it in the trailer in less than 10 - with 1 other person who is not an Olypic weightlifter. The stories about needing an hour to rig one imply major finger problems.

[glider12000]

Thanks for that Aviate! When offered a share + year costs for £220 you have to take it!

Looking forward to flying it on the Ridge at Parham, so hoping to finish my silver in it. If it`s not in wood it shouldn`t count :ok: Did my silver height in Ka6CR at Pock so i`ve made the right start!

[cats_five]

Am bemused that it shouldn't count unless it's in wood. All that happens is people flying wood usually have to wait longer for a good enough day, and they probably visit more fields.

[Fitter2]

Pah wimps. In my day it didn't count unless it was wood and had struts.

And a 500k had to be an FAI triangle - none of the 80km yo-yo things.

Not to mention living in a hole in the road - did I mention I went to school in Leeds?

Actually, although my logbook last records a Skylark 2 in 1972 I recall it as pleasant enough to fly, adequate soaring glider on a half reasonable day and less of a strain to rig than the larger 3 or 4. I echo the advocates of taking a wood experienced inspector to look at one.

[cats_five]

Fitter, 50k in/on a Grasshopper?

[Fitter2]

Negative, but to do one in a Grunau Baby 2 was de rigeur in RAF Germany in the early 1960s. The same applied in France, apparently, to judge by George Moffat's memoirs. To my shame I did my 5 hours in the Meise Olympia, appreciating the relative comfort.

[astir 8]

This year a German guy did 110 km in a Hols der Teufel - a bit more than a Grashopper but not a lot! And a Dutch guy did a 40 minute soaring flight on a Grasshopper - with no instruments!

Now those were flights!

I did once meet a lad who on an excellent soaring day had just failed to do his 50k .......in a Discus. Doh!

I always reckon that if people in their £80 K glass gliders have 40 times as much fun as I do in my £2K Skylark 4 then they must be seriously happy pilots!

So have fun out there, and keep the Oly's etc flying.

[cats_five]

There's a lot in favour of glass gliders. The 15m unflapped ones are generally simple to rig, a lot of them are self-connecting, they are nearly all very easy to fly, with suitable covers they can live out in the summer (so less chance of damaging you or the glider rigging) and you can fly XC on days when a lot of wood simply falls out of the sky. They are often more comfortable than wood as well. I'd say the advantages of wood are that landing speeds are usually slower, so you can fit in a smaller field, and you can manage height gains when glass is struggling for lift. And most of them are pretty cheap gliders.

Of course some people will fail to do their 50k in a glass glider, but many of them will manage it (and quite possibly manage flying back as well now that landing out at the end isn't de rigeur) on a day when wood wouldn't want to be out of glide range of base.

And there are lots and lots of really good glass gliders for well under £80k!

[Thermal-Soarer]

Hello All :ok:

Just a quick question does a Skylark 3b need a EASA :confused:

[astir 8]

Nope, EASA only starts at the T51 (Dart). The Skylark 3 (T43) and Skylark 4 (T50) are Annex II (Hooray!)

[JW411]

For me it was all three Silver legs in an Oly 2b.

300 km triangle and Diamond Goal plus Gold C height in a Ka6.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that Chris Rawlins at Booker did his 500 km triangle in a Ka 6.

[Thermal-Soarer]

Yeh i did think they were a AnnexII but was not 100% sure.

On the whole what are peoples thoughts of a Skylark 3b ?

[astir 8]

Done Diamond Goal & Height in a Skylark 4. Still missing the 500 k. I said this to a gent a couple of years ago and he looked at me in some puzzlement.

"500 k in a Skylark 4? ..............It should be easy enough"

Piggott, I think his name was...


Just fix the ergonomics of lifting the centre section and there's nothing wrong with a Skylark 3. The 4 is a lot prettier though!

[Thermal-Soarer]

Yes i've heard the centre section is heavy and you could strungle on your own ,unless your Mr muscles lol

How much is a skylark worth ?

[astir 8]

Not a lot, frankly. At least one Skylark 3 was being offered free to a good home a year or so back. There's one festering in our hangar that's probably a write-off by now.

The value depends very much on condition, the trailer, parachute and instruments really. The airframe could get thrown in for nothing!

Forget one man rig, without an elaborate system, even with muscles, but rigging with 2 reasonably fit people is feasible with the right equipment. pm me if you want some pix.

[cumulusrider]

Skylarks. Big cockpits so ok for wide people like me. I am not sure on the 2 but on the 3 I flew the seat was a sort of canvas hammock affair and was adjustable. Bare in mind that the fabric has a finite life and is labour intensive (costly)to replace.
Wood can still fly long distances. There is a K6e in the club class nationals who flew 456km on saturday, 437km on sunday and yesterday flew243km in 25knt winds to come a close second. Well done Will Ellis

[snapper1]

Tiger,

There's an article on the Skylark 2b by Brian Griffin in the current edition of 'Sailplane and Gliding,' (the British Gliding Association's magazine) which will give you some useful information. Also, in the same edition there's an article on the Olympia 2b written by Terence Henderson, ex Concorde pilot, that I think you will find interesting too.

You can get the magazine direct from the BGA at Welcome to the British Gliding Association (http://www.gliding.co.uk)

[Thermal-Soarer]

Is there a online data base where you can find out the history of any glider ?

[Piper.Classique]

Is there a online data base where you can find out the history of any glider ?

Don't think so. Let us know if you find one!

[longer ron]

Skylark 3b?
Not too bad to fly...quite pleasant...have the ailerons had the 'F' mod carried out ?
Originally the 3b had plain ailerons without tabs but some were modified to have balance tabs (sometimes erroneously called servo tabs !) A La 3f !
I flew an original 3b without tabs back in the early 80's and let us say that they were perhaps not the most effective ailerons in the world LOL.
But as others have said - if the price is right - they do climb well and have excellent airbrakes,I did my first 5 hours in a 3b and seem to remember her having quite a comfy cockpit :)

[astir 8]

Re glider histories - there's Richard Cawsey. He generally knows more than appears on his website.


Slingsby page (http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/slingsby.htm)

Alternatively if you can work out at which club the glider was operated, an email appealing for info from the older members can work.

If you think it did any national or international competitions you can look through all the old copies of Sailplane and Gliding on the Lakes GC website.

The problem is that most people used a personal racing number which was transferrable from glider to glider rather than the fixed BGA number and trigraph so tracking can be difficult

[longer ron]

Some lovely colour footage from Lasham 1960's...starts off with rigging a skylark :)...

GLIDING beware - other Colour Pics share this title - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/gliding-beware-other-colour-pics-share-this-titl-1/query/airfields)

[T-21]

Better off with a K-8 great soarer, easy to rig and maintain and very nice handling on a cross country. Did nearly all of my Silver C in one missed duration by 30 minutes. :ok:

[JW411]

I know it's an old story but it was said that when Andrew Schleicher saw his first Skylark 4 at a competition he was reported to have said:

"Very impressive but with that amount of wood I could make five Ka 6s!"

[longer ron]

Better off with a K-8 great soarer, easy to rig and maintain and very nice handling on a cross country. Did nearly all of my Silver C in one missed duration by 30 minutes.

No arguments there :)
Was it Derek Piggot that said...
''The only catch with a K8 is the canopy catch''

Although given any choice...I would go K18 :) now that was a nice little glider :)

[mary meagher]

K18, very nice. I managed 200k in one a few years ago. It was a Talgarth K18 that went swimming in Lake Lingham in December -the pilot ran out of ideas and daylight about the same time and decided a water landing would be better than trees. When they went to retrieve it the following day, it was undulating in the waves; the glue had softened a bit.....nevertheless somebody took it on and rebuilt it...

[Arclite01]

K18

I've flown a couple

Regretted never buying the ones they had at Dunstable when they replaced them with K23's 25 years ago.

Could have had all 4 for £18K. Didn't have the money at the time sadly.............

Personally I think it's one of the best non-glass single seaters I've flown - massive cockpit, actually a lot bigger all round than the K8 but retained much of the docile handling.

What a shame they didn't make more....................arrived a few years too late

The SF-27 isn't a bad 'looky-likee' and is good if you do a hinged canopy mod rather than the lift on/lift off prehistoric throwback...............

Arc

[Ka-2b Pilot]

When I first got involved in competitions in the 1960s all the gliders were wood, Oly 2s, Skylark 2, 3 & 4, Ka-6, 7 & 8, SF-26 and similar. Skylark 3 & 4, & Ka-6 were in the top class (I forget the name) with the rest in the lower class. A lot of tasks were from A to B via C if the wind was considered too strong to fly upwind successfully but in light winds there were closed circuit tasks and some were quite big, including 300K although that was not often. In one competition the top class was set a 300K triangle and the lower class a 200K triangle. We all landed out on the middle or last leg. A couple of us almost got back, having flown Westbury to Hereford in a straight line, across the Bristol channel and almost through the Welsh valleys near Cardiff! Those who went the inland and longer route via Cheltenham landed there! All the 200K gliders completed their task! The next day the tasksetters changed the roles and set us an easy 200K triangle and the Oly 2s, Skylark 2s etc were set a 300K dog leg race to Yarmouth. They all finished with most getting Gold distance & Diamond Goal! We nearly all landed around Lasham while those who did get back were mostly penalised for flying through the airspace near Heathrow! I recall there were some huge clouds between Newbury and London going into the airspace. Those of us who flew round them to the south found dead air, those who went into them got penalised as cloudbase was already in the airspace. A couple who stayed under them completed the task.
So, big tasks were, and still are, possible in those old gliders. And I still fly one and have lots of fun, and it will out-climb most of the modern gliders most of the time, just takes longer to get to, and usually arrives lower, at the next thermal.

[cats_five]

The difficulty with closed courses in older gliders is headwind - they climb very well, but the polar drops off substantially as you speed up plus general speeds are lower than newer glass gliders, so it's easy to end up in the situation where you take a climb and get blown back during it, then glide out to the same point where you pick up another climb from the same thermal source...

However the last day of the Club Class Nationals that finished at Lasham last Sunday was a 510km task which 38 of 41 gliders completed. The day was won by a K6. Club Class is handicapped and (I think) windicapped. The alter attempts to balance out the effects of a headwind on different gliders.

[OldManRiver]

Just fix the ergonomics of lifting the centre section and there's nothing wrong with a Skylark 3. The 4 is a lot prettier though!

And goes better...ah, nostalgia...Gold Distance/diamond goal in a Skylark IV, o/r Challock, through the 'Gatwick Gap' (does it still exist, I ask myself?) and round the big aerial thingy at Chilbolton....

[ParaglidingBrit]

Hello All,
I stumbled across this thread whilst looking for information on Skylark 4s. I am in a position to purchase a 1963 Skylark 4 but I have a few reservations and need some advice.
The sailplane has a blemish free history without any damage and was overhauled and recovered about 10 years ago.......that's the good part. The problem that concerns me is that it has been kept in an open hanger for the last few years and although has a current CofA hasn't been flown for at least a couple of years. Because there is some wood deterioration on the end rib of the center section and I bore scoped the inside of the wing. Although I think the deterioration is just on the outside, I did find a lot of mouse droppings all through the center section. The glider does smell musty but other than the stated problems, looks to be in fairly good condition. I have some photos of the affected area, but I'm not computer savvy enough to figure out how to post them!
I would really appreciate any advice you can give me.

Thanks,
Ian

[astir 8]

Hi Ian

I've owned a share in a Skylark 4 for longer than I care to remember.

Musty and wood gliders don't go well together. Get a second and third opinion from people who understand wooden airframes. Diagnosis by photos wouldn't be enough.

best of luck
Dave

[GAZSD]

mice and wooden aircraft are not compatible, not just the droppings but mouse urine and the nibbling damage

take an experienced inspector with you

good luck...beatiful machines...and nothing that can't be fixed....given time and money

GAZSD

[ParaglidingBrit]

Thank you both for your sound advice. As much as I would love to own this sailplane, I think I will have to pass it up. The mouse issue really concerned me more than the deteriorating wood because of the associated urine. If the sailplane was cheap enough, I would probably be willing to tackle the restoration but the owner is asking $9000 for it and I was expecting an immaculate example.

There is a Dart 17WR for sale in England........does anybody know anything about importing a sailplane into the USA?

Thanks again,
Ian

[Piper.Classique]

Your first stop should be the British Gliding Association.
This is a very rare glider, I would expect it to be annexe II. All darts have a bonded spar, and delamination has in the past been a problem causing several to be stopped flight. Lovely to fly, but not a little boy's aircraft.
You might consider a standard libelle, which should be fairly easy to find in the USA, a lot were exported there.

[longer ron]

the owner is asking $9000 for it


He is havin a giraffe :)
A wooden glider in that condition is worthless unless historic and rare - and I would hardly call a skylark 2 ultra rare LOL
As PC posted - you might be better off with glass - Std Libelles are lovely little gliders (esp with top and bottom airbrake conversion ) - unless you are over 6 feet tall !
Another lovely glider is an Open Cirrus (a little like a grown up libelle) but of course it all depends on what is available !
I certainly would not pay much for any Dart variant !

[astir 8]

If I understand correctly it was $9000 being asked for the Skylark 4, which would be way too much in the UK, even for a good one with a good trailer.

I just built a new trailer for mine, and the trailer is probably now worth more than the glider! (and it was flown by Nick Goodhart in the 1963 world championships).

But I love it dearly.

[dsc810]

Darts are not Annex II

[longer ron]

You are absolutely spot on Astir 8 - it was the Sky 4 - but still waaaay too much for even a 4 !!

[ParaglidingBrit]

I agree that $9000 is way too much for a Skylark 4, but this is the States where even a 1-26 or a K6 goes for $8000!!! You can call me weird, but I seem to have a perversion for vintage wood. I'm looking into importing a sailplane from England, even with the cost of shipping it works out cheaper and I feel that gliders are much better cared for in the UK.

Unfortunately, a Libelle is out of the question for me as I'm 6'4". I even have a hard time fitting it the back seat of a ASK21 with a parachute.

Thanks to you all for the advice.

Ian

[Piper.Classique]

If you like vintage wood, most polish gliders seem to be made for the tall and skinny. You might consider the cobra, or the foka.

[cats_five]

Be aware that both the Cobra and the Foka (and a few other types) have the same rigging method and need to be rigged with very great care to avoid a probably fatal accident.


SZD COBRA WARNING (http://www.sylacaugasoaring.com/SZD%20COBRA%20WARNING.htm)


Also:
Air Accidents Investigation: Download PDF document (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/SZD-24-4A%20Foka%204,%20G-DBZZ%2005-11.pdf)


The BGA has issued an alert on this, unfortunately it doesn't want to load for me right now.

[Piper.Classique]

Same method as my Standard Mucha, not to mention the Bochain. So? Rig properly, like any other glider. Then do a proper pre-flight inspection.
I've seen other types mis-rigged, and other types have failed due to mis-rigging.

[glider12000]

I was at the Foka accident, so if considering this type or an aircraft that uses the same rigging method please double check.

[Above The Clouds]

A sad unavoidable accident, however, if the correct manufactures rigging procedure had been followed along with using the correct tools for rigging the UK Foka this accident could have been avoided.

[Piper.Classique]

Sad, indeed. Unavoidable? Well, no.

As you say

if the correct manufactures rigging procedure had been followed along with using the correct tools for rigging the UK Foka this accident could have been avoided.

[JW411]

I had a share in a Cobra about 40 years ago. I liked it it. We never had any problems rigging and de-rigging it. The only problem that we had was the gel coat covering the plywood surfaces started to craze quite badly so she had to go back to Poland to be re-finished. After that; no more problems.

[Above The Clouds]

Piper.Classique
Sad, indeed. Unavoidable? Well, no.

As you say


Well please enlighten us all ? they used the WRONG tool to join the wing, simple.

[astir 8]

Really it was down to unfamiliarity with rigging the glider. See the AAIB report previously referenced.

Having said that, a lovely glider to fly. Just be aware of the potential problem and the ways to avoid it.

[Fly-by-Wife]

A sad unavoidable accident, however, if the correct manufactures rigging procedure had been followed along with using the correct tools for rigging the UK Foka this accident could have been avoided.
Does not compute.
One statement denies the other.
Contradictory, don't y'know.

Hard to make it much clearer.

FBW