Commander when in crew rest

[oicur12]

Can someone give some insight into the responsibility of a commander when on crew rest.

What happens if a stuffup occurs while the skipper is stacking zzzzz's in the bunk. An example being an altitude bust en route.

Do governing authorities hold the commander responsible for such an incident when not on the flight deck. Have there been any cases of this?

Its something I have never understood especially considering that the crew are all required to have access to rest according to FTL's.

Just wondering.

[Liam Gallagher]

Is there something you want to confess???

[F_one]

Isn't that why they get paid the big bucks....:D

[Steve the Pirate]

It's actually the second in command who would be responsible.That's why the the Commander and the ISM shouldn't take rest at the same time...

STP

[F_one]

The commander AND the ISM. Are you saying they're not the same person?

[SloppyJoe]

Is that because the ISM monitors the flight with their flight path and ATC communications uplink app for iphone and can take over with the remote aircraft flight path controller app for iphone if they deem intervention is required?

[Virtual Reality]

I thought ISM is the overall commander of the flight? Ask 'Masako' about it .....:}

VR

[oicur12]

Having never flown long before I was just wondering what the legalities are when the only commander is in crew rest when something occurs.


The reason I posed the question here was because in a recent breakfast conversation with commanders from various airline backgrounds, nobody could actually pin down a precise answer. No one had a clear understanding of the legal implications of crew rest.


Thanks for taking the time to answer with maturity and intelligence guys. I forgot how cynical the bitter and twisted harbor dwellers really are.

[411A]

I forgot how cynical the bitter and twisted harbor dwellers really are.

A bit harsh, me thinks, nevertheless...
at our mob, the senior First Officer is in charge when the Captain is on crew rest, and he is paid accordingly.
He holds a full Command rating in the airplane, and operates it accordingly.
We are a small company, with really outstanding experienced folks on the FD.
I expect CX is much the same....experience-wise.

[Steve the Pirate]

oicur12

Sorry for the flippant reply - I feel suitably chastised.

Seriously though, nothing is likely to happen because if you read Vol 2 about the handover briefing you'll see that it's very comprehensive. One thing that is missing though is the final point, which of course should be:

Don't stuff up

STP

PS. The Commander is always responsible.

[kmagyoyo]

Isn't that why the CN logs the entire flight while the FO logs only time in seat?

[moosp]

Years ago on a ship the Captain always signed off the log as he went for rest with the words, "If in any doubt, wake me." I asked why and he said that under maritime law he was responsible for the ship even when asleep and that is the best the company lawyers could come up with to give him a bit of cover.

I do not believe that aviation law has caught up with the concept of commanders rest, so it would be up to the interpretation of the judge on the day of the subsequent enquiry. Live with it.

[Wobblywonker]

simple, a commander is always in charge when all goes well but the moment there is a stuff up, it's management's fault for putting commercial considerations before safety, or it's fatigue caused by untenable rosters, or it's latent factors brought on by systemic failures, or it's the wife's fault for be such a nag, or it's the kid's fault for not listening, or it's natures fault for the weather............

you get the drift :}

[Five Green]

Wobbly:

Not here, the commander will wear it no matter who is at fault. Actually the whole crew will wear it if something major happens. Even if things go exactly as trained and the crew does everything to perfection they will still be hauled in front of CSD and FOP who will do their utmost to confirm the company is not at fault. They may even forget to tell the crew what a great job they did, saving 300 + lives.

The "authorities" are not usually that involved.

411 : Not here relief qualified FOs (who may be the most junior FO on the flight deck) get an extra $80 us per month to be relief commander.

Hope that helps !!

FG

[club med]

If something happens while the Captain is resting, he would only be responsible for the outcome based on his decisions AFTER he had been advised. The relief crew would be responsible legally up to that point. I would caution however that the courts may not hold to that, so basically.... no one really knows until it's tested in court.

[Guava Tree]

Ah yes and we might ask, was the Captain of the Titanic "On Duty" at the time the iceberg was hit? This is only an associated question,not an answer.

[claire40]

Just ring the HK CAD they know everything

[Capt Toss Parker]

At dispatch I like to ascertain the crews previous experience, GA Military Cadet etc. and if there are any G.A. guys then I don't really sleep.

I prefer to sit in the rest seats and stay alert for any unforeseen circumstances.

People may think this is over the top but I cant trust these G.A. guys at the wheel, I probably wouldn't sleep that well anyway.

If the crew are predominantly ex military then that's a different story.

[freightdoggiedog]

People may think this is over the top but I cant trust these G.A. guys at the wheel
If the crew are predominantly ex military then that's a different story.

Troll? To bite or not to bite, that is the question... anyway, I declare it open season on Capt TOSS(park)ER :}

[Capt Toss Parker]

I apologise for my honesty but that's the way I feel when it comes to ULH.

Guys from general aviation don't have the big picture that the military guys have, it comes down to the rigorous selection process and aptitude testing that we went through to join the military.

One of the first things I ask when I fly with a new guy is "what is your background", back in the day CX hired highly skilled aviators from a large pool of heavy jet and ex military pilots now they hire any old ding bat to make up the numbers.

When I was in the air force we used to brief everything, even how the landing will be conducted for the conditions presented and I intend to have this kind of discipline incorporated into our SOP's.

[j3pipercub]

Well your first name seems indicative of your persona. Reason #45,678 NOT to join an airline...

[moosp]

Good catch! Hook, line, sinker, most of the rod and his bait bag too!

Now back to the thread...

[VR-HFX]

Fly fishing used to be what one did on BKK overnights but there is now a comprehensive program poolside at the USRC.:ok:

BTW what is wrong with the comments? It is one of the reasons for the increase in commander fatigue on ULH rosters:cool:

[Guava Tree]

claire 40,

You said:

"Its quite simple really.Just ring the HK CAD they know everything."

I say:

"Please don't say that. I don't work for the Hong Kong CAD yet."

[VR-HFX]

Capt Parker

As Sir Humphry would say...couldn't agree with you more but I will certainly try...

All those twats playing with the bits and bobs without knowing what they really do...is enough to keep anyone awake at night....especially over Siberia and the frozen wastes of Alaska:zzz:

[Capt Toss Parker]

Thank you HFX.

I'm pleased that you understand my concerns. They say you shouldn't stereo type people but I've been in this game long enough to see the trends that filter through the training system.

G.A. pilots being trained by young STC's with minimal experience it's a recipe for disaster in my opinion. When I read their training file it frightens me, inexperienced trainers with G.A. guys could it get any worse.

[VR-HFX]

In a nutshell yes it could and it will.

Hopefully we still have enough checks and grey hair in place but it is only a matter of time.

I certainly would not allow any of my loved ones to travel Air Asia and their kin but we are heading that way ourselves.