Plane Spotters Detained In India

[donnlass]

Plane spotters from Bristol detained in India


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47337000/jpg/_47337340_jex_5334_ico27-1.jpg Mr Hampton has photographed planes all over the world

Two plane spotters from Bristol have been detained in India on suspicion of spying. Stephen Hampton, from Keynsham, and Steven Ayres, from St George, sparked suspicion after asking a Delhi hotel for a room overlooking a runway.
The pair were carrying an air traffic control scanner, laptop, binoculars and cameras.
Dan Norris MP is liaising with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to try to bring the pair home.
Mr Norris, MP for North East Somerset, said of 46-year-old Mr Hampton: "His family are distraught, ever so anxious and worried, understandably, that he can come home soon.
"My job is to try and make that happen with the support of the Foreign Office and our diplomats and officials."
The railway worker's mother, Eileen Cock, said he had travelled all over the world photographing aircraft.
Mrs Cock said she had been expecting her son to arrive home last Tuesday, but received a call from one of his friends to say he and a friend had been detained at the hotel at which they were staying.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47338000/jpg/_47338053_jex_5340_ico27-1.jpg Mrs Cock said she was just waiting for the telephone to ring

She said the scanning kit he was carrying was used to track incoming aircraft so they could photograph them at the best moment.
"He was under hotel arrest then for two days," Mrs Cock said.
"In the meantime I've been having various bits of information, both from Stephen and his friends, as to what was happening.
"The next thing I knew he rang me from a vehicle on his way to what I believe was a foreign registration office.
"Then, in great distress, he called me again (to say) that they had been taken to this place and that he didn't know what it was."
Mrs Cock said she believed her son was now at a deportation centre in Delhi.
"I had a rather frantic call the next day to say 'what could I do to please help him out?'," she said.
"I'm just going from minute to minute, hour to hour, waiting for the telephone to ring."

[donnlass]

I remember aircraft handlers in Dublin getting very upset when we wanted to take a pic of the Ryanair flight we had just come in on.


And we did ask as well.

[tigger2k8]

I remember aircraft handlers in Dublin getting very upset when we wanted to take a pic of the Ryanair flight we had just come in on.


And we did ask as well.generally any electrical device isnt supposed to be used from the boarding gate door to the aircraft.. such as mobile phones, cameras, mp3 players blah blah.. in the very rare chance a spark is caused when fuel vapour is in the air... ground staff are told to enforce this rule, some do so more than others... cant recall if anything has ever happened though.. more of a precaution

also some airports dont like pictures being took airside without a permit

[donnlass]

Thanks for that I didnt realise. Of course there is always a logical reason for such rules and I certainly wouldnt want to endanger an aircraft/personnel particularly with fuel involved.

[LogieBear]

India. I would not be too concerned being detained in an hotel there for aircraft photography. Far better than Greece or countries ending STAN who I presume detain in worse conditions? Having taken photographs of aircraft worldwide myself, India is friendly.

[tailstrikecharles]

lets see, a white man in a brown country, "taking pictures of Aircraft while having devices capable of eavesdropping on Aircraft communications"




now switch and have a brown man in America doing the same..

[ He went for a gun! -oh, never mind it was petunia]

[LN-KGL]

tigger2k8
generally any electrical device isnt supposed to be used from the boarding gate door to the aircraft.. such as mobile phones, cameras, mp3 players blah blah.. in the very rare chance a spark is caused when fuel vapour is in the airNonsense tigger2k8, or in pure and simple English: bollocks

Jet fuel have autoignition temperature of minimum 210°C, you need an open flame to start a fire and the jet fuel vapor is much heavier than air so one metre over the ground the concentration is way below the "explosive window" under normal outside temperatures. Non of the electronic devices you list can ever reach 210°C and don't emit sparks. No, the reason is quite different. The ground crew want to get you out of harms way as fast as possible, and the airport ground crew can certainly be used better than being day care personnel.

The fire danger card can be used though for piston engined aircraft using avgas and especially during their refueling. Avgas is highly flammable and electric equipment used within the explosive mixture areas must be Ex classified.

[tigger2k8]

Nonsense tigger2k8, or in pure and simple English: bollocks

Jet fuel have autoignition temperature of minimum 210°C, you need an open flame to start a fire and the jet fuel vapor is much heavier than air so one metre over the ground the concentration is way below the "explosive window" under normal outside temperatures. Non of the electronic devices you list can ever reach 210°C and don't emit sparks. No, the reason is quite different. The ground crew want to get you out of harms way as fast as possible, and the airport ground crew can certainly be used better than being day care personnel.

The fire danger card can be used though for piston engined aircraft using avgas and especially during their refueling. Avgas is highly flammable and electric equipment used within the explosive mixture areas must be Ex classified.nonsense? then you need to re-write the training for most airport staff in the UK, and no doubt the world.... so your telling me if a passenger was walking under the wing and vapour came out and an electrical device malfunctioned causing a spark that its impossible the vapour wouldn't ignite? the odds of it happening are extremely slim, but why take the chances when vapour is around

[PA38]

Trying to remember my early days "jet fuel" and diesel are very close with flash points, and auto ignition points.
Flash point is around 62 degrees C and autoignition at about 210 degrees C.
I can't imagine temps that high on an apron, unless it's dripping onto a hot engine.
I would have thought if there was a chance of ignition, it would have happend a long time before you got your camera out!!!!!
You can drop a lit cigarette end into Diesel at ambiant temps and it will go out, don't try it in petrol type fuels though, flash point is about -40 degess C ;)

[Skipness One Echo]

I have yelled at at both STN and PIK for taking a shot on the ramp. At PIK the yellow jacket was winding in the line that makes you walk round rather than under the wing and the target was an Israeli AF B707. As I was on home turf I just politely told him I disagreed and walked calmly away and up the rear steps.
At Stansted, one of the Swissport pushback tug crew became animated as I shot a record photo of the Ryanair I was about to board.

Hence I have a procedure now that works very well. Correct lense on and settings ready to go before I leave the lounge. Accept I will not be changing settings or lenses when on the ramp and have a very small window to set up a record shot and shoot, do this quickly. It works for the aircraft I am boarding and anything immediately adjacent. Learn the difference between a quick pause and loitering and be aware when not to even try.

Got off last year at Ciampino and thought better of it. Happy spotting.

As an aside, in Ireland you can quite happily walk under the wing when boarding.

[MAN777]

Cameras and quick shots.

Learn to shoot from the hip, with the camera hanging from your neck.

Most auto focus cameras will give good results, if they are a bit wonky correct in photoshop, simple !

I also agree that the chance of Jet A1 igniting from a spark is absolutely nil.

In fire training at the airport they have to pour petrol onto the Jet A1 first before there is any chance of ignition.

[gate4]

Some places around the world the local authorties are not familar with the hobby of "plane spotting" and seeing someone carry out such can be suspected of spying! I have encounted problems in BKK, SIN and a few other airports around the world. Best idea is to be discreet about your actions and keep the laptop and scanner out of sight. Maybe even have two camera memory cards, one with scenic photos and the other with your plane photos and keep the scenic card handy to show which works well.

[tigger2k8]

In fire training at the airport they have to pour petrol onto the Jet A1 first before there is any chance of ignition.

yes, thats in liquid state, the vapour on the other hand is easy to ignite with a spark... isnt this the reason why fuel tanks have an inerting system? ( Inerting system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inerting_system) )

[chiglet]

Was it Lord Brabazon who challenged his American counterpart to stand in the American fuel [JP4] whilst Lord B would stand in his [JP1] and drop lighted matches...JP4 declined

[philbky]

It most certainly was.

[Groundloop]

Interesting how this post went straight of topic and those actually arrested were hardly memtioned after in post 1!

The only thing to say - is how stupid can some people be! Something perfectly acceptable in one country may not be in another. Ask first - don't take the risk. I have seen tourists at Indian Airports being approached by armed soldiers telling them not to take photographs. And these guys had scanners - which could well be illegal in India.

[Wannabe Flyer]

The only thing to say - is how stupid can some people be! Something perfectly acceptable in one country may not be in another. Ask first - don't take the risk. I have seen tourists at Indian Airports being approached by armed soldiers telling them not to take photographs. And these guys had scanners - which could well be illegal in India.

Well said. It is always announced that photography is banned etc etc etc. when on board an Indian flight. Most time Indian airports share infrastructure with Military ones. Also the hotel rooms of this particular hotel overlook the hanger areas of the RAW. IL 76, IAF Embrarers and some covert aircraft or the other are usually parked here. For the uninitiated RAW is the Indian version of the CIA.

It just goes to show that vigilance of civilians is needed in these times. Considering there was a terrorist attack the same day, plus some hotheads have started warning foreigners to come to India for even sport activities it is commendable that the hotel staff correctly identified what these guys were upto ie: photographing and overhearing aircraft movements.

Strange part is that the authorities are figuring out what to book them under. Thankfully not the terrorist act and the more sedate Indian telegraph act. So at least they beleived their story and did not ship them to Guantanomo first :D

[andyjoy]

got so say i have little sympathy asking for a room overlooking a runway and having SBS laptop and cameras, in the world we live in nowadays its just asking for trouble.Just because 1 person gets away with it in another country does not mean everyone will its just a case of getting written permission from the right people to say yeah its ok to use and if you dont get it leave it at home!!!

Asking a few simple questions can save alot of hassle and avoid a trip to the local nick:)

[learjet50]

Doesn t his mothers name Discribe him ??

[Avman]

I take the point about the SBS, but if a hotel in India is built with rooms overlooking a runway then explain to me why a guest shouldn't stipulate a runway view? Oh and a large percentage of hotel guests are in possesion of a laptop these days!

I would guess that they naively carried on with their spotting activities whilst their room was being serviced. Dumb!

[Ridge Runner]

Its all about discretion. Keep it as a hobby and be sensible. Scanners+cameras+bins+asking for a runway view will always raise suspicion! I've been around the world and photographed in many places - Libya, India, Greece, Russia, South America, etc - and only been stopped once.... in Israel!!!! Luckily with a little foresight I had a sketch of a bird in my note book and I said that I was bird watching.... I returned to my hotel and then on to the UK! And the poster who mentioned the US..... who'd want to go to the US these days anyway? RR

[High-higher]

Is there some sort of list to specify which countries you are legally allowed to use scanners and those you are not? I was amazed to read this story.

[Ifield Lad]

Regarding taking photos on the apron/ramp, I seem to remember late 60's/70's always having our photos taken as we disembarked at Palma, Alicante, etc. Maybe the camera technology was so different then that there was no danger!!

[astir 8]

Isn't listening to aeronautical messages still (in theory at any rate) illegal in the UK?:ooh::ooh:

[champair79]

yes it is, but it's one of those unwritten rules where the police turn a blind eye unless you are deemed suspicious.

I'm living in Turkey and got busted last weekend for doing it actually. I was near the fence waiting for my friends plane to take off. Security guard moved me on so I went across the road into a car park and watched from there. The b*stard still sent two police vans after me when I walked past him 10 mins later on the way home. Luckily the cops were ok with me when I explained I'd only taken 2 pictures and it didn't include any of the airport - just the plane and that it was my friend on it. I won't be going back there again in a hurry. I'd rather planespot from my balcony :8

[swr_e007]

It worries me a little when contributors to this thread imply they were asking for trouble.

Things is, I work in IT and fly a lot to visit customers. So... I always carry a laptop and often stay in hotels at or near airports (just because it is easiest to catch the 5am flight next morning... or fall into bed after a 2am arrival...) I'm interested in birds (feathered ones) so often carry some binoculars and yes I enjoy photography too, so might well have a camera with me.

Ironically, I'm not a plane spotter... although I might have a casual look if the runway is in view.

But should a suitably suspicious cleaning lady from the hotel be sniffing around in my room then could I expect to find myself in the same boat? Or prison cell?

Personally, if I was a terrorist plotting to shoot down an airliner or something - I think I might keep my surveillance equipment out of sight and be careful not to raise suspicion. Frequently, people who appear to be 'suspicious' only do so because they aren't trying to hide anything... because they have nothing to hide.

Alas... if only it were so easy to spot terrorists. The professionals find it hard enough - amateurs tend to just harass innocent people.

[Groundloop]

swr, your naivety is astounding! There are some countries that are absolutely paranoid about security (the UK seems to be going that way!). Logic simply does not enter into the equation in these countries.

[Gulf4uk]

Groundloop is correct in UK now even using or looking as though
you are going to use a camera will likely get you stopped and
Even Arrested .you dont have to be anywhere near an Airport
taking Pictures of anything is fair game to the police . They
were sent Letters to knock this stupidity off but well you know.
Most airports where spotters gather now have ID scheemes
Farnborough Has AIRPORT WATCH as good some ideas are
all this seems over the top and makes more paper work
something the police Moan about FORM FILLING but they seem
to Love handing out pieces of Paper .
The thing is if somone calls police about anything SUS they are
obliged to act but it often goes over the top.

TONY
Farnborough

[Avman]

in UK now even using or looking as though
you are going to use a camera will likely get you stopped and
Even Arrested

Strange, I enjoy photographing civil aviation and have never had any problems in the UK. Yes, I have often been approached by police for an I/D check and I have no problem with that whatsoever. Maybe some of you are getting confused with airfields which always had a certain amount of "security" even prior to 911. More of a privacy issue than a pure terrorist one I think.

[Ridge Runner]

Many if not most of the contributors here are looking at this with a UK/European pair of eyes (Greece, Sebia, etc excepted). In most parts of the world people are ignorant of many things, naive, nervous, ill-informed, and sometimes poor. They think differently and act accordingly. THey are driven by different things. What they do is not necessarily wrong, its just different. If you want to venture out in to that world you get on much much better by understanding them and then acting around that or, ideally, with that.

I've been a spotter since the late 60s, albeit my interest wained after the introduction of noise limitations and the gradual retirement of classic types like the F-104, the IL-18, the Connie, etc, but I've never had a problem, save one occasion when I knew I was doing wrong - in Israel! I travel a lot for work and the above priciples always work, whatever you are doing.

RR

[SloppyJoe]

What a load of rubbish saying that a camera could start a fire if used to take a picture of an aircraft. If this really is a rule then yes the rule should be rewritten. What about all the cars driving around? What about all the radios people are using, what about all the mobiles, what about the big jet engines? Seriously if they have a rule they should come up with a better reason for it.