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druckmefunk
19th Feb 2010, 01:34
What does it all mean?????:eek::eek:

Unions join forces against V Australia: maximum duty hour limitations
Steve Creedy
From: The Australian
February 19, 2010 12:00AM
V AUSTRALIA is facing legal action and possible industrial turmoil as unions representing flight attendants and pilots lobby for new agreements.The Flight Attendants Association of Australia is preparing to launch legal action with Fair Work Australia, alleging breaches of maximum duty hour limitations defining how long crew can work under the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award.

And the Qantas-based Australian International Pilots Association has moved to help its fledgling Virgin counterpart, VIPA, with negotiations on an enterprise agreement. Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.

FAAA international division secretary Michael Mijatov said the union had written to V Australia several times about the flight limitation issue.
Mr Mijatov said the union, which had recruited 75 per cent of the airline's flight attendants, wanted to discuss the issue in the context of wider enterprise bargaining negotiations. "They are just being very, very difficult," he said. "They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."

Mr Mijatov said the association expected to lodge its duty hour claim today and he was seeking legal advice on how to get the airline to the bargaining table. "One of the things I will be raising will actually be the option of notifying a bargaining period and that would be the first step in the potential use of industrial action."

A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue confirmed that the FAAA had raised a concern with management and said VAustralia had responded.

She said the airline had already agreed to start discussions on an EBA for the airline. "Currently we're simply awaiting the nomination of EBA representatives so we can proceed with that intention," she said.

But Mr Mijatov said a letter was received this week indicating the airline believed it was not breaking flight limitations and indicating it still wanted to keep all crew under one agreement.

He had spoken to both VIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and was aware that neither wanted an agreement involving cabin crew.
VIPA, which was set up last year, and AIPA said they were working together on ways to increase membership of V Australia pilots with the aim of negotiating a new collective agreement.

AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said the current V Australia contract was capped at levels below those of most airlines. "We're a bit worried where that contract's going to go ultimately and I gather they're coming up for EBA negotiations, so we felt it was time to offer assistance unless they plumb the depths of pilot contracts in Australia, let alone the world," he said

Muff Hunter
19th Feb 2010, 03:21
Best thing VIPA and the VAUS pilots could is keep the AFAP as far away as possible.

They will only negotiate a deal that suits VAUS management!

goodonyamate
19th Feb 2010, 03:28
Great to see AIPA and VIPA working together. Could this be the start of the 'united front' we have needed in Australia for so long???:D

Lets hope so.....:ok:

hongkongfooey
19th Feb 2010, 03:35
preparing to launch legal action with Fair Work Australia

Good luck with help from these oxygen thieves :mad: A more employer biased organisation you would be hard pressed to find :ugh:

waren9
19th Feb 2010, 03:40
What Muff Hunter said.

psycho joe
19th Feb 2010, 04:13
OMG :eek: Could it be true? Unions putting aside petty differences, seeing the bigger picture and working together to improve conditions for all involved and the betterment of the industry. Stop the clocks and mark the time. Run to the sea and observe the tide; It may finally be changing. :D

Meanwhile where is the AFAP? Are they still fighting the MBF for the betterment of themselves? :hmm::ugh:

Red Jet
19th Feb 2010, 04:31
OMG http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif Could it be true? Unions putting aside petty differences, seeing the bigger picture and working together to improve conditions for all involved and the betterment of the industry.

You better believe it!! This is great news for the industry in general and V Australia pilots in particular. And to those of you who are still sitting on the fence, waiting to see what the union will do: Get involved and join a union of your choice. EBA negotiations are happening VERY SOON, and and the higher percentage of the pilots are involved, the better the outcome!


JOINT STATEMENT FROM VIPA AND AIPA
18 February 2010
Virgin Blue, V-Australia, Jetstar, QantasLink and Qantas
Pilot Associations get down to business
Groundbreaking high level discussions have resulted in Australia’s main commercial
airlines’ Pilot Associations agreeing to work collaboratively for the benefit of all
airline pilots.
Both VIPA (the Pilot Association representing Virgin Blue, V Australia, and Pacific
Blue pilots) and AIPA (the Pilot Association representing Qantas, QantasLink and
Jetstar pilots) are together working on ways to increase the membership of V
Australia pilots prior to negotiating a new collective agreement with the Virgin
Airlines.
VIPA will utilise AIPA's international experience and expertise to assist VIPA
members within V Australia (V Australia pilots) to form a new collective agreement.
We are confident that our collaborative approach will serve us well for the future and
will also be a solid foundation for further combined efforts down the track.
It is clear that pilots are best served by unified Pilot Associations that work together
to resist the deskilling of pilots’ work and the negative effects of an increasingly
globalised economy where pilots continue to bear the brunt of continuous cost
cutting by airline employers.
As a recently registered association that is gathering momentum, VIPA looks
forward to contributing to an alliance that presents exciting possibilities for
Australian pilots.
John Lyons, President of VIPA, the Virgin Pilots Association and Barry Jackson,
President of the Australian and International Pilots Association, said in a joint
statement today.
ENDS

Howabout
19th Feb 2010, 04:32
"They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."

Why is this unsurprising? Good luck to the DJ guys and gals. As SLF, I haven't had one bad experience with DJ and that goes to the people, not the suits.

Someone commented that the NT in my handle indicated that I couldn't have flown DJ that much. The NT stands for 'not there anymore (unfortunately).' I fly DJ heaps, particularly the Junglies, between the east and that place with the one-way free-way. The cabin crew have always been superb.

If any of you guys read this, just take a thankyou from a satisfied passenger - I hate that 'customer' rubbish.

Mr. Hat
19th Feb 2010, 05:12
Thank god, it's about time!

Could this be the begining of a united pilot front in Australia?

Wod
19th Feb 2010, 06:09
Or better.

Industrial unions instead of Trade unions.:eek:

Transition Layer
19th Feb 2010, 07:14
And if, according to another thread, AFAP is actually getting rid of their Loss of Licence (the only reason a lot of pilots stick with them) then they really will go the way of the dodo.

Bring it on!!!

A. Le Rhone
19th Feb 2010, 07:38
Fantastic - a glimmer of hope prevails!
Please keep up the momentum.
Regardless of some attitudes towards the AFAP, hopefully they too can cast aside history and join the combined group.
There is only one way that pilots can improve their lot and that is TOGETHER.
No more moaning about our differences, it's well past time to work together.
This new and hopefully long-lived cohesiveness, combined with the inevitable shortage of qualified bums needed to fill the thousands of new airliners being built presents the best opportunity in a very long time for Australian pilots to once again make their profession a viable and rewarding one - a situation that does not exist at present.
:D

Tee Emm
19th Feb 2010, 13:07
This is great news for the industry in general and V Australia pilots in particular.

Yippee! When do we strike? Man the picket lines, me hearties. Don't forget the Hi Vis shirts wiv I am a unionist and proud of it on the back and front. Don't worry about the tourist industry going bust with no tourists. Their problem - not mine. Hang on a sec though Whoops! I might lose me pilot job too..

High-Bypass
19th Feb 2010, 13:41
Am I missing something?

For years there has been an over supply of pilots. Airlines twigged that they could save a buck by working their employees more and paying them less, because ppl jumped at the chance to get out of their current job, for the chance to work somewhere bigger, better, closer to home, etc.. Hence, the race to the bottom.

Everyone @ VB, JQ, VA, etc.. were told the terms and conditions they would have to agree to if they wanted to be employed. Some ppl said "Yes, i'll do it" while others said "Thanks, but no thanks."

Now the ppl who said "Yes, i'll help you bring the industry down" have realised what they've signed up for and NOW they want it changed??

Maybe i've missed something, but IMHO, if you've made your bed, you should lie in it. Maybe if more ppl said "No" at the beginning, companies would offer better conditions, instead of having to bring the unions into it.

Muff Hunter
19th Feb 2010, 20:30
Physco Joe,

Do you want to know where the AFAP is?

They were in FWA last week sitting along side JQ management fighting AIPA's dispute with JQ....

Thats's right!

LC and co were sitting alongside JQ management fighting another union who is trying to represent the MAJORITY of JQ pilots!

Another disgraceful act by the soon to be/already irrelevant AFAP!

Let's hope VIPA and AIPA can finally head us in the right direction....

A. Le Rhone
19th Feb 2010, 21:18
Ah yes some of the last posts reiterate exactly why it will be difficult for Professional Aviators to improve their lot. Unity will be difficult to achieve and self-interest will almost always prevail in Australian aviation.

The other problemm is agressive stupidity. I don't usually like to be negative but then we have absolute idiots like TBM-Legend and Tee-Em (why are you even on this website and are you the same person?), with simplistic statements like "If you don't like the big V or anywhere else. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif-off and work somewhere else you winging cretins..." Gee that really helps. Good onya champs, great posts and great turns of phrase, you must be so proud of yourseves.

Anyway back to hopefully well considered posts....

VA is a rotten package at present and those who took it may often have done so because of difficult personal circumstances. Yes it can be argued that they brought down the level for Professional aviators but there is nothing to stop them by whatever means (preferably united) improving their lot now.

Just adopting the stupid "if you don't like it F-Off" mentality isthe domain of fools.

Ironically however TBM that's exactly what WILL happen, but not the way the likes of you would prefer. The will imminently be Not enough pilots and too many aeroplanes. It was already becoming severe before the GFC. Basic supply/demand equation. If VA don't shape up the their crews will vanish within months to airlines desperate for experienced crew and who necessarily and realistically pay better. The 777 is a sellable rating. The same will apply, particularly to Tiger which will have to cancel services and to a lesser degree Jetstar.

So before we recommence sniping at each like children other can we grasp the basic fact that.

A) We can only achieve anything if we are united.
B) There will always be idiots like TBM ready to undermine us. We just need to bypass such people and achieve an aim that betters the lot of all professional pilots.

TBM-Legend
19th Feb 2010, 22:06
Mr La Rhone -Thanks for your comments. The point is that this is the 21st century. The extreme case of trying on the employers [see 1989] was last century and it caused much agnst for all including many folks who became collateral damage victims of a self-centered group who did not see the forest for the trees.

Today we all have choices - take them if you have the courage..

8888
19th Feb 2010, 23:19
A.L.R. have you considered the possibility that much of the negative 'turns of phrase' that you refer to are born of utter frustration at what we have done to our industry? All the talk of solidarity and unification will never amount to more than that. History has proven so over and over and over again. To emphasize my point just look at the naivety and completely off topic direction of Compylot's post! He is the new age pilot. "I don't care. I want to fly a shiny new Jet. It will get better in due course."

Fill your boots trying to undo the parasitic self destruction that's been breeding unfettered in the Great Southern Land for over a decade now. Such a miracle would be quite novel...

FFG 02
20th Feb 2010, 01:04
"All the talk of solidarity and unification will never amount to more than that."

On an anonymous web forum no, probably not, but it would be great....wouldn't it? How do we help to get it together?

smoka21
20th Feb 2010, 01:58
Unfortunately, I think we all know that pilots as a group are as weak as pi$$.

We tried getting together before, and well you know the story. Many of the $cab$ are C&T around the place. It was one way to get a promoion.

On the upside, my children learned to speak Malay very well.

Cost Index
20th Feb 2010, 02:07
I for one hope this will begin the unification of pilots as a whole. :ok:

Weak as piss, some, selfish, some, impatient, some... but with appropriate guidance the flaws of a few will be diminished by a greater good. Just the mere presence of a such a force will be enough to get management to think twice.

mention1
20th Feb 2010, 02:15
I sincerely hope there will eventually be more aircraft than pilots. As we all know there has always been an oversupply of pilots in Aus.

Early in 2008 there were signs that there was a shortage beginning to appear. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the world's economy gets back to normal. But don't forget when ever an airline goes broke - BANG - hundreds of pilots become available. For instance I hear you can't get a job in Japan anymore

From what I hear most pilots joined V - Aus knowing the T&C were sh!t but are hoping that with each EBA negotiation things will get better, citing a similar outcome at Virgin Blue.

A37575
20th Feb 2010, 03:02
I don't usually like to be negative but then we have absolute idiots like TBM-Legend and Tee-Em (why are you even on this website

Tee Emm? Splendid chap. Maybe he is just pulling your leg and you fell for it? Who is the absolute idiot now?

oicur12
20th Feb 2010, 10:17
High Bypass.

So, in simple terms, according to you, there are two categories.

There are those that accepted the job offer at Vaus and later realized what a crappy deal it was. As though they struggled to read the terms of their contract before signing it.

And we now know that they are presently struggling to make ends meet on the meager offerings provided by the overlord for whom they are in servitude.

And then there are those we admire, the ones that said "Thanks, but no thanks."

My question to you, Mr Bypass, is, where exactly is this second group of people you refer to, the ones who refused the job offer. Are they presently enjoying the higher salaries they eagerly held out for, happily in the employ of the other, more generous Australian based 777 operator?

Or are they presently sitting at home in eternal hope that the phone will eventually ring bringing joyous news of a more substantial offer.

How long are they prepared to sit….at home….waiting for such an offer?

Perhaps they don’t have bills to pay and families to feed.

KRUSTY 34
20th Feb 2010, 19:17
The problem is, in 12 months or so this may all be somewhat academic! :uhoh:

Red Jet
20th Feb 2010, 20:48
The problem is, in 12 months or so this may all be somewhat academic!
Pray tell, Krusty! Why would that be?

A. Le Rhone
21st Feb 2010, 04:10
Or it may not. VA may fly to Japan and China and PER-LHR and SYD-JFK. It is a better product than QF and in normal times will flourish.

Hopefully those 'normal' times may force them to look after staff properly.

bushy
21st Feb 2010, 06:34
And that's the problem. No one is interested in improving anything, except their own situation. Airlines are not run by pilots anymore but by hard nosed businessmen (or businesswomen) who do "whatever it takes" to make the figures better and get bonuses.
And while there is a huge pool of "wannabies" conditions will get worse, not better. Some of these "wannabies are buying jet endorsements, and the race for the bottom has started. Look at GA. The only difference is the size of the necessary debt but the same thing is happening in the airline world now. And you blokes are letting it happen, because most have tunnel vision and cannot (or will not) see the big picture. There is an ad for flying training on this forum, but I don't see any pilot jobs advertised. The flying magazines have lots of advertising for flying training, but mostly no jobs. And a poster on prune who is not happy with the situation at one of our more prominent regionals seems to be promoting flying training to make the pool of wannabies larger. (Ther'll be pie in the sky bye and bye) The wannabies do not stop at CPL level anymore. Airlines are powerful financially and politically and this has been demonstrated. I would not like to pick a fight with any of them, but they will react to what will cost them money. And if the pool of wannabies dries up it will cost them. And the race to the bottom will slow.
The public should read headlines like "the pilot was paid
$20-00 for this flight." Or "this airline pays it's F/O s $35,000 a year" or "Pilot's award is less than the average wage"
or "these pilots have to generate an cash flow suficient to pay their wages before they get a job with this organisation"

But this won't happen. And the oversupply of pilots will continue and the race to the bottom will continue. Because most pilots have tunnel vision and can only see that one job that is important. Their own. We have to make sure that the real facts get to the student pilots before they spend their money. But you blokes won't, will you?

CaptainSouth
21st Feb 2010, 08:35
Hooray. AIPA Jetstar and Virgin guys...a united front and we may yet achieve something. Ultimately, an airline is a plane a couple of pilots and some flight attendants. We are not useless numbers to be paid as little as THEY can give us. We are responsible for many lives and high value assets but are continually devalued by our respective employers...accountants and management consultants. A united front with one overarching union....NOT NECESSARILY AIPA!!! and we may yet get back some respect.
Good luck Virgin guys. I would be happy to support you.:ok:.

A. Le Rhone
21st Feb 2010, 10:48
Good points bushy. With all respect however, I think for the first time in living memory, the 'wannabe' supply has been diminishing significantly over recent years. CPL issues have plummeted over the last 10 years, most Australian CPLs are issued to foreign cadets destined for airlines in their homelands of China and India.

Why would anybody now wish to commit to 200k worth of debt to get a job that pays at best 50k for an FO and that's after years of slooging it out to get to even that stage? The job has no allure anymore for young guys and this is not helped by locked cockpit doors etc.

Pilots are retiring, the military has downsized and far fewer wannabes are entering the business.

However airlines ordered up big a few years ago and are taking delivery of aircraft just as we emerge from the GFC.

Basic supply and demand (not our wily negotiating skills) will force those hard-nose businesspeople to pay whatever it takes to get pilots to join them. Of course there are benefits to living in Oz but why join Tiger or VA, never see your family and have to scrimp and save just to exist when you could nip off to Asia for 10 years and be set financially for life? Increasingly that's exactly what Aussies are doing and it will be the Tigers of this world that will need to improve things dramatically if they are to avoid cancelling flights and jeopardising their very profitability.

I wouldn't say 'happy days are here again' but I would say it's time for the boys at VA to start the ball rolling for significant improvements and the best way to do that is to join with the AIPA (and AFAP for that matter).

Good luck.

High-Bypass
21st Feb 2010, 15:11
Oicur12,

The people i know of who said "no thanks", all found jobs elsewhere. Some flying, some non-flying, but they have better lifestyles then what they were offered.

My point is, if you are offered a shit sandwich, and you agree to eat it, then don't complain about the taste. IMHO, if more people said no to the sandwiches, then eventually they will come off the menu.

Shark Patrol
21st Feb 2010, 20:00
Some of these "wannabies are buying jet endorsements, and the race for the bottom has started.

Bushy, that race has been on for years. Arguably it started the day that Virgin Blue commenced operations and has been gaining pace ever since.

IMHO, if more people said no to the sandwiches, then eventually they will come off the menu.

This argument started about the same time but, universally, was cried down by the wannabes who accused those in the high-paying jobs of being silvertails who only wanted to cover their own butts. How dare some highly paid Qantas pilot suggest that others should not improve their lot from GA because they don't want their overbloated T&Cs eroded. Go back a few years on PPRuNe and read the threads and responses that suggested that nobody should accept employment in Jetstar/VOz.

Some of these former wannabe pilots now even gloat about the fact that Qantas is an endangered species (even though their own T&Cs would never improve if Qantas were to disappear) - such is the depth of disunity, disharmony and malice in this industry!! Maybe those who accepted the "sandwich" are finally feeling threatened because of the entities (Jetstar NZ/Asia, for example) that have been created to undercut them.

For this industry to have any future, a single pilot union is not only desirable ... it is essential!!!

GADRIVR
21st Feb 2010, 20:04
High bypass....we both know that that won't happen. This so called united front will, as usual disintegrate the moment the busineeses will want it to. Pilots as a industrial group have been proven time and time again, to be as united as a bunch of Bedouins within spitting distance of a water hole!

It's too late to achieve anything at this point in history. The damage was done back in 1989. The problem worsened when the integrated school system was scrapped.

Take the jobs on offer if you want to fly a nice shiny jet... thats what you all really wanted to do in the first place right? Just be prepared to not earn very much. For the time and effort expended, even a Red Rats salary after 20 odd years is a bit weak these days and we can see what happened to those boys and girls. That path is gradually closing down.

So its off to living in the Far Western suburbs for the vast majority of you lot and a second hand car as the kids get older.... just like the rest of the general population, if you're lucky.

Basic Economics 101 won't allow anything else. Shame really, it was fun while it lasted.:(

Captain Dart
21st Feb 2010, 23:21
Agreed. 'That year', where the domestic pilots, demonised by the Murdoch press (he owned half of Anscab), were left on their own to fight the fight, was the start of the Great Australian Airline Pilot Race to the Bottom. The inability of other pilot and employee groups to appreciate the situation ensured that the Race continues to this day.

Dark Knight
21st Feb 2010, 23:33
CD

I suggest it really started when the QF pilots walked away from the AFAP and responsibility to their fellow pilots forming APIA.

The events which followed in a later nameless year where others failed their fellow pilots continued the slide.

The inability of other pilot and employee groups to appreciate the situation ensured that the Race continues to this day.

Succinctly said.

Since then the question has been and now is, are pilots capable of overcoming their own selfishness to actually become unified as one again to fight a common enemy i.e. Airline Management?

DK

Captain Dart
21st Feb 2010, 23:51
Yep, Mr. Knight, they walked away and stayed away.

There is even the potential for a third pilot union in Australia as pilots of a certain Asian carrier, already based in Oz, become 'onshored' later this year. They may affiliate with one or the other, or even the TWU.

bushy
22nd Feb 2010, 01:46
Look at the history. There was a time when those who could do it were in high demand. It was always competitive to get in, but there were "closed shops" that were powerful. Those days have gone. The "closed shops" are no longer as powerful, and there has been a pool of "wannabies" for the last 35 years or more. Even in the so called "pilot Shortage" there was still a pool of wannabies. It was just a bit smaller.
Some posters on here appear to have a financial interest in a flying school, and can always find a reason why "there will be pie in the sky bye and bye" It appears that there is not "pie in the sky" like there used to be. Let's face facts and tell it like it is. I think some airline pilots enjoy the military style elitism that says "only the best get in" and they appear to like to promote the present system for that reason. It makes them feel good. But the present system is destroying them.
There will not be a "super union" that fixes it all. Pilots have to THINK, and get rid of that tunnel vision. And get rid of that huge pool of wannabies who have bought that $200,000 lottery ticket that probably won't win anything. Airlines should plan ahead and sign provisional contracts with those they will need next year. That would make the expensive lottery ticket worth something, and may slow the race to the bottom. You will ever stop it while the supply grossly exceeds the demand. It may make you feel good, but it is destroying your industry. Too many don'y care.

Chocks Away
22nd Feb 2010, 02:21
Bushy, that race has been on for years. Arguably it started the day that Virgin Blue commenced operations and has been gaining pace ever since.

... I'd say the day McGowan started with his C99's & B1900's endorsements.

Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.... and isn't that what PacBro is trying to do too?

Suggest THEY ALL (Poly-Pac Blue, VB & V) gather around the camp fire, so there's no undermining.

Horatio Leafblower
22nd Feb 2010, 03:15
... I'd say the day McGowan started with his C99's & B1900's endorsements.

Hear hear. Don't forget that you weren't even an employee, you were a shareholder a business and you were paid a dividend each fortnight/month/whatever.

Did they pay you while you were in Miami getting your endorsement? :confused:

...all this long before DJ came to our sunny shores, and Pornstar just picked up the ball and ran with it. :ugh:

A. Le Rhone
22nd Feb 2010, 03:54
Yep, great. All that stuff happened. It's in the PAST. Yes it was horrible, weren't Qantas pilots arrogant, weren't dispute pilots naive, weren't Jetstar pilots undermining everybody and weren't the rest of us all silly for just standing by doing nothing etc but for crying out loud LETS MOVE ON.

Bushy - "Pilots have to THINK, and get rid of that tunnel vision" Absolutely. well put.

Shark Patrol - "For this industry to have any future, a single pilot union is not only desirable ... it is essential!" Spot on.

Right now we are at a fork in the road. This is THE perfect time to join forces and intelligently, strategically and masterfully battle the greedy CEO's of the world like Dixon who happily sneer with delight as your profession is denegrated and (as the recent Good Weekend magazine nicely portrayed) take money straight out of your wallet and put it into theirs. Why battle each other when we should focus our attention on individuals such as that?

Time will tell whether in 20 years we will still all be bitching at each other on PPRuNe like babies or have actually done something tangible to change our fortunes. A good start would be for the AFAP to get on the blower to the AIPA and join with the VIPA and J* group etc to create one umbrella organisation.

For the sake of all of us let bygones be bygones and realise that our future globally is very bright and if some industriousness is employed, our future in Australia can also be very bright.

TurbTool
22nd Feb 2010, 04:27
A. Le Rhone you make excellent points and discuss the situation objectively which is all great to read.

I question though about moving on and urging the AFAP etc.

When this situation has been created and continues to grow now because VIPA is born of people who were not willing to pitch in and assist the AFAP but whinged that the AFAP could not perform miracles for them,

and

AIPA has stated publicly (in a recent Australian) that it can no longer work with the AFAP and will instead turn its attention to VIPA,

and

while both of these are de-unifying acts and are in the present not in the past,

How would you expect people to move on and become united?

I agree that it would be desirable but cannot for the life of me see how it will ever happen while VIPA continues to attempt tp split the VB pilots and AIPA continues to attempt to lure AFAP members from the QF regionals and Jetstar, instead of working together.

maggotdriver
22nd Feb 2010, 04:42
Prior to that year, I have read that the AFAP were the most powerful union in Australia's history. This needs to be read in the context that there were mistakes made, but what can be learned? United and legal but even more importantly not fighting a government owned entity we have considerable power. Ask the management of QF how much the engineers cost them. How much are the management of Lufthansa about to piss away in four days? 98 million $AUS. AIPA is the biggest aviation union at the moment, the best resourced and QANTAS have an EBA coming up with significant flying being outsourced. When time and time again management have made hollow promises - surely, just a meeting (well advertised to stop any problems with business and the government) and stamped by FWA as legal, must be on the cards. Just one, to begin with and let's see what happens then. I know the history so I don't need a lecture. The way the future is headed we're in the same place at any rate. I just prefer once that instead of being hoodwinked again for the 27000th time, we held their stare and didn't blink. We did everything legally and had it stamped as such by the government, not in arrogant defiance of it.
Good on you AIPA and VIPA we may have a chance.

somewhereat1l
22nd Feb 2010, 05:45
http://www.faaa.net/images/int-news.gif
Please do not reply to this email. Send all correspondence to [email protected]
22 February 2010
Attention All V Australia Cabin Crew
FAAA LODGES DISPUTE WITH FWA OVER DUTY HOUR LIMITATIONS
Further to our newsletter to members dated 15 February 2010, I wish to advise members that VAustralia management finally responded to the FAAA by letter dated 12 February 2010, that in their opinion they are not in breach of the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2010, particularly its provisions relating to duty hour limitations.
In these circumstances the FAAA had no option but to lodge a dispute application in Fair Work Australia (the industrial umpire), last Friday 19 February 2010. We now await a date from FWA as to when the matter will be heard. We anticipate that the hearing will occur fairly soon. Once we get these details we will advise members and the FAAA would urge interested members to attend the hearing and hear firsthand how V Australia justifies the creation of patterns which exceed the limits allowed by the Award.
The FAAA is disappointed that management continue to obfuscate, delay and generally be as difficult as possible on the issue of commencing EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreement) negotiations with the FAAA.
We (the FAAA) have been crystal clear with them in relation to this issue. We have indicated to management that we do not propose to negotiate an EBA that would cover pilots as well as cabin crew in one EBA or indeed any other occupational grouping.
In their letter to the FAAA of 12 February, the Company persists with the notion that it wants pilots and cabin crew to be covered by one EBA. This is despite the relevant Pilot's unions also being opposed to the idea.
We will shortly advise members as to the next step that the FAAA will take to attempt to "persuade" the Company to cease its nonsense and commence EBA negotiations with the FAAA.
Finally, reprinted below is an article that appeared in The Australian on 19 February 2010.
Unions join forces against V Australia: maximum duty hour limitations

Steve Creedy
From: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/)
February 19, 2010 12:00AM V AUSTRALIA is facing legal action and possible industrial turmoil as unions representing flight attendants and pilots lobby for new agreements.
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia is preparing to launch legal action with Fair Work Australia, alleging breaches of maximum duty hour limitations defining how long crew can work under the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award.
And the Qantas-based Australian International Pilots Association has moved to help its fledgling Virgin counterpart, VIPA, with negotiations on an enterprise agreement.
Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.
FAAA International Division Secretary Michael Mijatov said the union had written to V Australia several times about the flight limitation issue.
Mr Mijatov said the union, which had recruited 75 per cent of the airline's flight attendants, wanted to discuss the issue in the context of wider enterprise bargaining negotiations.
"They are just being very, very difficult," he said.
"They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."
Mr Mijatov said the association expected to lodge its duty hour claim today and he was seeking legal advice on how to get the airline to the bargaining table.
"One of the things I will be raising will actually be the option of notifying a bargaining period and that would be the first step in the potential use of industrial action."
A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue confirmed that the FAAA had raised a concern with management and said V Australia had responded.
She said the airline had already agreed to start discussions on an EBA for the airline.
"Currently we're simply awaiting the nomination of EBA representatives so we can proceed with that intention," she said.
But Mr Mijatov said a letter was received this week indicating the airline believed it was not breaking flight limitations and indicating it still wanted to keep all crew under one agreement.
He had spoken to both VIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and was aware that neither wanted an agreement involving cabin crew.
VIPA, which was set up last year, and AIPA said they were working together on ways to increase membership of V Australia pilots with the aim of negotiating a new collective agreement.
AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said the current V Australia contract was capped at levels below those of most airlines. "We're a bit worried where that contract's going to go ultimately and I gather they're coming up for EBA negotiations, so we felt it was time to offer assistance unless they plumb the depths of pilot contracts in Australia, let alone the world," he said.

Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov - Secretary International Division

20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192 www.faaa.net (http://www.faaa.net/)

psycho joe
22nd Feb 2010, 05:57
When this situation has been created and continues to grow now because VIPA is born of people who were not willing to pitch in and assist the AFAP but whinged that the AFAP could not perform miracles for them,


Ah, the mantra of the diehard supporter.

Time & time & time again the failings of the AFAP are blamed on its constituency.

Like it or not the AFAP is increasingly becoming irrelevant & isolationist; And when the last of the dispute pilots die out, the last remnants of its die hard support base will be gone.

The only way that the AFAP can survive is by pointing the finger internally, seriously reviewing their core business and embracing the other unions.

I think it's universally agreed that no pilot thinks well of VA t & C's, but the fact is that the airline does exist; So any cohesive effort to improve conditions must be encouraged & can only be beneficial to the industry as a whole. And if by some genius/miracle/black magic the Vaus pilots achieve a favourable outcome where does that leave the AFAP? Isolationist? Irrelevant? Looking like a petulant child?

struggling
22nd Feb 2010, 08:03
Untimately disengaged pilots, tough management and the inability to come up with a lateral solution, results in:

A Strike
The pilots' union of Lufthansa began a strike Monday after a last-ditch effort at negotiations over pay and job security failed, a spokeswoman for the airline told CNN. The four-day work stoppage by the pilots' union of one of the world's largest airlines threatened to disrupt travel on more than two dozen partner airlines later on Monday.[/font]

The union is also concerned with the airline's recent buying spree of small regional carriers, such as BMI and Austrian Airlines which, it says, is cannibalizing flights away from union-flown routes."We fly less hours and have less potential for (performance-related bonuses)," Handwerg said. "We want to have the opportunity to grow, but instead it shrinks."

In a statement, Lufthansa said: "In addition to demands on job security, however, the union also insisted on a greater say on fundamental entrepreneurial issues, equating to intervention in business management at the airline. That demand cannot be accepted."

Video Report available at:
Lufthansa pilots will strike | Video | Reuters.com (http://uk.reuters.com/news/video?videoChannel=2603&videoId=44349283)


Can only hope that those flying and managing V Australia know what's best for managment, staff and shareholders. :(

busdriver007
22nd Feb 2010, 08:36
Germany is unique in that the unions already have a seat on the board(on Lufthansa)...by law...interesting concept....

TurbTool
23rd Feb 2010, 00:26
Psycho,

I doubt VIPA will survive without the the support of its constituency (if it actually has one) and should it fail that will be the main reason.

Interesting that the head honcho of the AFAP is a VB captain and VB still has an active council, so I still believe the formation of VIPA is as I suggested.

The AFAP is surviving very well, as AIPA don't care about anyone but the Qantas group pilots, and very few of those are leaving to join AIPA, as it is not able to deliver on its promises.

I would be delighted to see VIPA negotiate a better deal for VA, that is not what my post was about, it was aimed more at the suggestion that the new AIPA/VIPA alliance will bring "UNITY" to the pilot profession in Australia, which clearly, it won't.

Van Gough
23rd Feb 2010, 00:52
Gorgon workers to get pay bonanza - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/mp/6839633/gorgon-workers-to-get-pay-bonanza/)

Have a look and see what the CFMEU union negotiated for unskilled labourers (admittedly for a 70 hour week)

$150000 as a labourer! Thats what happens when workers stick together...

High-Bypass
23rd Feb 2010, 01:17
and if Gorgon paid less than the industry standard, people wouldnt apply.

VA, TT, et al offer below standard conditions and ppl can't wait to join.

laut
23rd Feb 2010, 06:07
I'm watching the rush begin again. You are all aware of the pay and conditions of the LCC's you run for to say you fly a jet. That's great, but when you are there don't complain about the guys and girls that sat back and waited for a job that actually offered fair terms. A job that gave you a parking space, a job where you didn't have to pay for your uniform. a job where you were paid a training wage, a job where you had a chance of real progression, a job where you felt that you were getting treated and paid in a way that reflected the hard yards you have done where ever you flew and studied over the years.
Oh wait ! Alot of you haven't done much flying and really don't know what hard yards are do you ?! Alot of you jumped at cadetships with Qlink and Rex etc and now realise you maybe stuck for quite a while. A long while... Well no surprises there, they wanted you to stay !!! For the Crz F/O's at VOZ, well I don't even want to begin. It is sickening.
I hope this latest batch of people running for JQ and VB don't start complaining after the first few months on the pretty jets wear off but history indicates other wise.
I also hope for pilots to stop being such a selfish bunch and look out for the future conditions of fellow aviators. It has been said to death but it is SO simple. If you don't apply or show interest in these positions that offer pay and conditions that would be more suited to the unskilled labour market then the operators have to improve their game. We still need pilots (or monkeys) to "fly" these machines.
Wouldn't it be nice if your child one day showed an interest in aviation and you were able to encourage that interest ? Well I know most of us that have watched what has happened (especially over the last 10 years) would tell the little one to forget it.

Mr.Buzzy
23rd Feb 2010, 07:57
Thanks Laut,
some terrific pearls of wisdom there. You make so many new and original points in your post.
Tell me, do the midgets serve full strength or only light beer in your dreamland?

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

A. Le Rhone
23rd Feb 2010, 08:03
...and do you and your childish bbbzz stuff ever post anything mature? I do lament for my profession when when somebody thinks their contribution to their peers is snide cynicism. Whenever I see you've posted I know it will be something stupid and again you have proved that.

Good points laut.

laut
23rd Feb 2010, 08:18
Thanks A Le Rhone. Buzz - I am not claiming originality. But maybe when it is written as simply and often as I attempted here (and by others before) it may slowly sink in. I thought after the lessons learnt since the last boom people might do some more research before jumping at these jobs.
I made these points as politely as I could as this is a "professional" forum.
I have been disgusted for over ten years now that educated people still work for this garbage and others continue to buy their jobs :yuk:. Not trying to be wise here Buzz, just seems that common sense isn't that common.

psycho joe
23rd Feb 2010, 09:36
I thought after the lessons learnt since the last boom people might do some more research before jumping at these jobs.


What boom are you refering to?

Has there ever been a period in Australian airline history, whereby pilots were in such short supply that the airline actually and significantly in real dollar terms increased pay & conditions across the entire airline?


I would be delighted to see VIPA negotiate a better deal for VA, that is not what my post was about, it was aimed more at the suggestion that the new AIPA/VIPA alliance will bring "UNITY" to the pilot profession in Australia, which clearly, it won't

What unity has the AFAP acheived? The AFAP is only interested in itself.

Small steps. Today a couple of unions are working together :D If they are successful then VIPA will have proven their worth & finally a precedent of unity will have been set for future negotiations.

novice110
23rd Feb 2010, 10:44
"I hope this latest batch of people running for JQ and VB don't start complaining after the first few months on the pretty jets wear off but history indicates other wise."

Could you please elaborate on this?

neville_nobody
23rd Feb 2010, 10:50
If you don't apply or show interest in these positions that offer pay and conditions that would be more suited to the unskilled labour market then the operators have to improve their game

And who then is going to stay flying a busted arse 402/Metro/PA31 etc when they can get a pay rise and ride around in a flash jet?? Your argument is probably correct if you are already in a reasonable airline, however if you are suggesting that people should stay in GA vs getting into a 777 I'd be suprised if you would turn down a Crz FO job given that option.

A. Le Rhone
23rd Feb 2010, 11:13
...except I as a recruiter for a 'proper' airline won't even look sideways at a QF S/O or VA Crz FO. Sorry, but those positions are irrelevant and basically amount to nothing. They may temporarily give the recipients access to pretty girls and the pretence of importance but that's all (although at QF you may have the possibility of advancing to F/O one day (???).
On the other hand if I'm recruiting somebody whose been flying around single pilot IFR in a 'busted arse 402/Metro/PA31' I will look most favourably on them. There are fewer more difficult jobs out there and no better training ground for a subsequent LHS in a jet.
If you can handle delicate piston-engine handling and Single Pilot IFR procedures in thunderstorms simultaneously tiptoeing around dubious employers you are almost a dead-set certainty for employment in my crowd.
If however you've opted for a back seat in a shiny jet I'm worried that you've become fat, lazy ans indoctrinated to avarice (especially at QF) and sorry but that's not so appealing.
I know it's a generalization but Beware the shiny jet syndrome.

coaldemon
23rd Feb 2010, 11:47
So you don't look at Multi Crew background people for your " Proper" airline? Amazing. Single Pilot IFR is difficult but doesn't prove diddly when you have to work in a team and usually it is a steping stone to Multi Crew. Each to their own but I think that the rose coloured glasses are well and truly on.

waren9
23rd Feb 2010, 13:48
coaldemon

You've missed the point. And, I disagree most heartliy.

Good single pilot ifr types almost always make very good team players. A Le Rhone is right.

The very fact that that they are out on their own making it happen, loading their own planes in the pissing rain at 3 in the morning, means they're already part of a small dedicated team. Just 'cause the rest of the team isnt all in the cockpit with him at the time doesnt change that fact.

Queue jumping cadet pilots, with a head full of class room theory in my experience dont carry the same work or team ethos of a hard working GA pilot who's proved himself in the field.

Transition Layer
23rd Feb 2010, 20:49
A. Le Rhone,

I'm a bit confused by your post. Did you even consider that the vast majority of QF SOs (or VA Crz FOs) were flying Single Pilot IFR or Multi-Crew Regional ops before starting with QF? Sure they're sitting in the back seat now but it's not where they've always been.

I'm glad you don't work for QF, cause it would be bloody hard work sitting next to you if you don't respect your crew.

neville_nobody
23rd Feb 2010, 21:42
..except I as a recruiter for a 'proper' airline won't even look sideways at a QF S/O or VA Crz FO.

I'd humbly suggest you have no idea!!! Most QF 2nd officers come from the background you are talking about. Some have jet time already, many are from regionals and there is the odd Wing Commander or F18 pilot thrown in the mix. If I was an airline I would look seriously at any second officer as I know the Australian Industry is alot different to the rest of the world and that it takes much hard work just to be in a position to get into an airline.

OneDotLow
23rd Feb 2010, 22:19
A Le Rhone,

Your lack of knowledge on what exactly a S/O or Crz F/O is, and more importantly where they have come from, shows without a doubt that you are not a recruiter for a 'proper airline' as you say.

That having been said, if you are actually a recruiter for an airline, I would be surprised if a S/O or Crz F/O would look sideways at your airline for work once they had been offered a position 'back home'.

FYI, on my S/O course (a long time ago now), we had 2 ex military instructors, 2 experienced regional airline drivers, 2 experienced flight instructors and 2 cadets.

KRUSTY 34
23rd Feb 2010, 22:29
I think the point is not so much the value of the S/O or CFO, but the incredable shortsightedness and ignorance of VA management in exploiting their crew for what amounts to nothing more than short term gain.

But then again they (the crew) did accept a truely pathetic package. Ouch! I'm getting a headache. :(

Arctaurus
23rd Feb 2010, 22:43
Muff Hunter's comments re the latest AIPA / Jetstar foray show a total lack of understanding of what AIPA is really about.

For a start, they are not respondents to the current EBA and should fall over at this hurdle on the basis of jurisdiction.

Secondly, Jetstar pilots would be well advised to think seriously about AIPA's motives and following them blindly .

AIPA's so called "support" for Jetstar pilots is a thinly veiled smokescreen for the real motive of getting Qantas mainline pilots command slots in Jetstar outside of seniority.

Something about herd mentality........:ugh:

Keg
23rd Feb 2010, 22:43
Queue jumping cadet pilots, with a head full of class room theory in my experience dont carry the same work or team ethos of a hard working GA pilot who's proved himself in the field.

What a crock. In my experience, for the most part, a cadet is virtually indistinguishable from the 'hard working GA pilot'. The differences normally have nothing to do with work or team ethic. :rolleyes:

However, after 15 years in QF- two of them as an S/O, ten plus as an F/O and just under two years as a Captain (those latter 12 years spent flying often with former cadets, the 'hard working GA pilot' types and even ex military types- what would I know.

A. Le Rhone
23rd Feb 2010, 23:03
I used 'proper' airline in parenthases for a reason (after all what is a proper airline?) but yeah don't mean to denegrate any S/O or Crz F/O!

TL & One Dot - If they're good guys (most are) and try hard then the'll get everybody's respect, regardless of whether they've flown F18's, F27's or C152's. If however they've just sat by choice for 14 years in the back seat, pinch the good sandwiches and moan about the company all day then they don't!

Sorry if it's offensive but right or wrong I have found that guys fresh from banging about in C402's are usually way more suitable/capable than somebody who has been idling along (I know often not by choice) in the back seat. Similarly offensive perhaps but airlines like Emirates and Ethihad currently airlines that are recruiting, don't pay much due to SO time - it's pretty meaningless unfortunately.

With everything that's happened at QF (farming all their ops off to Jetstar) would any new SO ever get a go at a LHS? Similarly VA's career path seems even less certain. So whilst the shiny new jet syndrome may seem a good idea after years in Karratha or the circuit area at Parafield (and possibly a pay rise!!!) it may in the future be a one-way road to oblivion. Not because the SO/Crz FO is no good but because he has no value to his management - a management not interested in upgrading his skills but only interested in their own appeal to the sharemarket.

As I say, hopefully shortly most of this will be academic. Not enough bums to fill the many cockpit seats being rolled out in Toulouse and Seattle means that there should be jobs everywhere.

waren9
23rd Feb 2010, 23:42
Well Keg,

Your experiences and mine are obviously slightly different then. We're all entitled to an opinion, yours and mine happen to be different on this issue. If you are able to offer some balance to an opinion that has likewise taken me some years to form as well, then thats great.

Nothing further to add, your honour.

:ouch:

ernestkgann
24th Feb 2010, 00:08
Geez Krusty that axe must almost be ground away by now.

Muff Hunter
24th Feb 2010, 00:16
Actaurus,

Are you Lawrie C in disguise??

Or perhaps another stooge from the AFAP!:mad::mad:

KRUSTY 34
24th Feb 2010, 00:19
Gidday 'Ernie,

Almost down to the nub mate! :E

Keg
24th Feb 2010, 01:07
waren, fair enough. We'll agree to disagree. Can I ask what your background and experiences are based upon? What types of operations? What sort of time frames? What sort of cadets? Are you talking QF cadets? Rex? Others?

To take my comments further, I've often found that many ex cadets have a harder work ethic than others of different backgrounds. Many of them put more into their preparation, more effort into their review and they tend to work pretty hard in the aircraft to stay in front of it. In all cases I suspect they're well aware of their lessor experience base and are working hard to ensure that they can broaden that base as much as possible and as quickly as possible. I've seen this work ethic provide dividends when the cadet's operation runs rings around the supposedly harder working GA driver or ex military types. To sum it up, I can only think of a single cadet who I've worked with in QF who I would classify as having had a poor work ethic. I reckon that's not a bad rate when compared to the other crew that I've operated with over the years who I would put in the same basket.

Anyway, back to VIPA and AIPA working together.

waren9
24th Feb 2010, 01:51
Keg, PM sent.

Indeed, back to the thread.

Pass-A-Frozzo
24th Feb 2010, 08:21
http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/popcornic3ba6.gif

The Bolter
24th Feb 2010, 08:25
Muff Hunter,

If Cox posts here it is under his own name. In this instance Arctaurus is right on the money.

waren9
24th Feb 2010, 14:04
Arctaurus and The Bolter

AIPA is doing nothing more than trying to improve job security for its members. One of the ways it can do that is by trying to enforce the provisions of the MOU on both JQ and QF management.

There is nothing "out of seniority" about a QF pilot who comes across under the MOU to JQ for a command.

If you are unhappy about the existence of the MOU then either;
1. It was voted in by a majority of your peers in 2004, or;
2. You joined JQ after that magic date in which case you signed up knowing (or should have known) the existence of the MOU.

No one has ever denied that from time to time there could be a conflict of interest between the 2 pilot groups for AIPA.

In the interests of pilot group unity, from time to time there may or may not be one side that does better than the other in some situations.

Cost of doing business and achieving a higher goal.

If you AFAP guys are going to run to the hills every time something gets a bit hard then:
1. Pilot unity and AusALPA will never happen in this country.
2. AIPA will eventually capture about 75% of all JQ pilots, rendering AFAP a redundant dinosaur because it will not be able to achieve anything with its doors closed to 2500 other very close knit and unified QF mainline pilots.

AFAP's choice.

And just because you bought it up,

If you lot are that concerned about things happening on seniority, how come AFAP showed up at FWA and defended the company position on the Right of Return dispute AIPA has regarding the DRW pilots taking commands elsewhere in the network outside of seniority?

Led Zeppelin
24th Feb 2010, 20:48
Jetstar Airbus jobs for Qantas mainline pilots now.

Jetstar 787 jobs for Qantas mainline pilots into the future.

That's the reality of AIPA's intentions in "looking after" the Jetstar pilot group.

When AIPA's previous executive attempts to denigrate and ridicule the Jetstar pilots failed, the new executive decided that a "softly softly" approach to achieve the goal of Jetstar jobs for Qantas pilots would be more successful.

The Jetstar pilots are being hoodwinked with this "takeover by stealth" action.

There are huge industrial issues with JQ, VA etc etc and we need a "BALPA like" umbrella organisation in Australia that does not have the political agendas that AIPA and AFAP have now.

maggotdriver
24th Feb 2010, 21:15
Many of my colleagues aren't that motivated (strangely, I don't know why?;)) to forego conditions and gain added responsibility so they can be paid less, just to swap three gold for four silver. How much is a strip of metal fabric worth? Consequently, we are encouraged by VIPA and AIPA and don't see it as some political subterfuge but a way forward where we can all share in better terms and conditions. If we become united we become market makers not market takers, quite simple really.

Tidbinbilla
24th Feb 2010, 21:27
This thread is NOT about Qantas vs Jetstar. Nor is it about the merit or otherwise of cadets.

Let's get back on topic, shall we?:ugh:

TID.

Capt Kremin
24th Feb 2010, 23:00
I think this sums it up.....

FRANCIS: Once in the sewer, timing will be of the essence. There is a management feast later in the evening, so we must move fast, and don't wear your best flying boots. Turning left here, we enter the Oldmeadow-Farrough memorial sewer and from there, proceed directly to the hypocaust. This has just been re-tiled, so pilots, careful with those weapons. We will now be directly beneath FWA audience chamber itself. This is the moment for Habbakuk to get out his prong.

[chink chink chink]

[thuk thuk chink chink chink chink chink]

[thump thump thump thump]

[suspenseful music]

[heartbeat]

AIPA: Shhh! Shh. Shhh. Shh.

DEADLY DIRK: Australian and International Pilots Association!!

FRANCIS: Oh. Uh, Australian Federation of Air Pilots. Officials.

DEADLY DIRK: Oh.

FRANCIS: What's your group doing here?

DEADLY DIRK: We're going to kidnap uncommitted pilots, take them back, issue demands.

FRANCIS: So are we.

DEADLY DIRK: What?

FRANCIS: That's our plan!

DEADLY DIRK: We were here first!

FRANCIS: What do you mean?!

DEADLY DIRK: We thought of it first!

WARRIS: Oh, yeah?

DEADLY DIRK: Yes, a couple of years ago!

AFAP.: Ha. Heh. Ha ha.

DEADLY DIRK: We did!

FRANCIS: Okay, c-- co-- come on. You got all your demands worked out, then?

DEADLY DIRK: 'Course we have.

FRANCIS: What are they?

DEADLY DIRK: Well, I'm not telling you.

AFAP.: Aghhh...

FRANCIS: Oh, come on. Pull the other one.

AIPA.: Shh!

DEADLY DIRK: That's not the point! We thought of it before you!

WARRIS: Did not.

DEADLY DIRK: We did!

FRANCIS: You didn't.

AFAP.: We bloody did!

BRIAN: Shhhh!

AIPA.: Shhhhh! Shh.

DEADLY DIRK: You bastards! We've been planning this for months.

FRANCIS: Well, tough titty for you, Fish Face. Oh! Oh.

RANDOM: All right.

WARRIS: Clever. You sly...

BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!

FRANCIS: We are! Ohh.

BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!

EVERYONE: The Virgin Pilots Association?!?!!?

BRIAN: No, no! Airline management!

EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

FRANCIS: Yeah. He's right.

RANDOM: Look out!

RANDOM: Careful.

[footsteps]

DEADLY DIRK: Right! Where were we?

FRANCIS: Uhh, you were going to punch me.

DEADLY DIRK: Oh, yeah.

[AIPA and AFAP fight]

BRIAN: Brothers! [whop] Oof!

Nothing changes...........:(

SilverSleuth
25th Feb 2010, 00:51
Yes Capt Kremin, What great contribution.... very whitty :rolleyes:

bushy
25th Feb 2010, 02:27
We have met the enemy, and it is us!

43Inches
25th Feb 2010, 07:50
There seems to be a few posts here aimed at the divide and conquer angle.. AIPA and VIPA should work together, what argument could there be against this? unless you try to run an airline based on minimising crewing costs! Stop the crap about motives, stop and think whether it is realistic first, what is to be gained from improving terms at v aus other than preserving our own jobs and conditions?

TBM-Legend
4th Mar 2010, 02:00
Here is the rallying call.....oh so last century!

YouTube - Strawbs - Part of the union 1973 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs)

oicur12
4th Mar 2010, 19:21
High Bypass

"all found jobs elsewhere”

Where elsewhere. If you’re a 777 rated skipper at Korean/Emirates/Etihad/Singapore etc and you want to relocate back home to oz, where is the “elsewhere” job?

“My point is, if you are offered a shit sandwich, and you agree to eat it, then don't complain about the taste.”

And my point is that, for the group of people I mentioned above, there is only one sandwich on the menu in oz right now. If you don’t eat it, you go hungry. Or you stay put. Great!!!

The folks I know who took the job at Voz (and the ones I know who are keen to get in) are working crap jobs in crap places of the world and will jump into a Voz 777 in oz because there is no other 777 job on offer at home.

Welcome to the world of capitalism.

Pass-A-Frozzo
6th Mar 2010, 12:58
A much better explanation of unions..

Milton Friedman PBS Free to Choose 1980 Vol 8 of 10 Who Protects the Worker (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871921977484002896&q=Milton+Friedman+Free+to+choose+duration%3Along&total=16&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7)

Capt Basil Brush
6th Mar 2010, 21:44
The folks I know who took the job at Voz (and the ones I know who are keen to get in) are working crap jobs in crap places of the world and will jump into a Voz 777 in oz because there is no other 777 job on offer at home.

And this folks is why conditions will never improve at Voz!

While people are knocking down their door on the current conditions - why would they?? I don't think the current contract includes any pay rises at all. Maybe someone can confirm this with the exact wording from the contract?

Hoofharted
6th Mar 2010, 23:22
Hey P.A.F I've missed ya. Where ya been? I was looking forward to your commentary on the recent financial sh1t-fight. :)

Pass-A-Frozzo
9th Mar 2010, 08:16
Hey P.A.F I've missed ya. Where ya been? I was looking forward to your commentary on the recent financial sh1t-fight.

Which one would that be? The one where Rudd taxed non home owning single mothers and gave that money to backpackers to install pink batts, in order to increase the value of home owners homes -- I mean stimulate the economy? :}

High-Bypass
10th Mar 2010, 18:46
I Can't Believe I'm Having This Conversation :ugh:

OICUR12, where do I start?? Have you passed YR 12 English? If your friends want to fly B777 for an AUS based carrier, than V Australia is their only option, if they agree to their skit house terms and conditions.

The T & C's are the equivalent to their teenage children flipping burgers @ MCDonalds, the only difference is Dad is responsible for the welfare of 300 ppls lives everytime he goes to work and teenage son/daughter might only upset 1 or 2 customers everytime they go to work.

As i said, If you are not happy with the shit sandwiches, STAY OVERSEAS or come home to V Australia, accept whats on offer and STFU !!

If your mates want to return home, then they will have to fly something other than B777, or accept a shit sandwich.

I had to find a pre-school teacher to put this post in simple terms for you and your friends who were daydreaming of returning to OZ with B777 commands, B737 commands, tax free dollar signs etc in their eyes

Red Jet
10th Mar 2010, 22:44
There is of course also the option of trying to get in with a new 777 operator from the get-go with a realistic expectation of a reasonably quick progression, join a union and work diligently towards improving the T&C's.
I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!

VA's management will only pay as little as they can get away with, while attracting the caliber of pilots they need to operate the aircraft safely. If they payed MORE than that, they wouldn't be looking after the shareholders best interest. There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between QF,SQ CX etc. and VA in this regard. THE ONLY difference is that VA don't have to deal with several decades worth of accumulated collective bargaining power from the employee organisations, but is a greenfield operation with ample access to qualified pilots wanting a sea-change. The job ahead for those of us who have imbibed on the "shit sandwich" is to stick together to improve the quality and texture!!

But please, at the same time put all this in the RIGHT perspective - a Captain with VA currently has a salary in excess of 200K - and it will only improve as we are all coming off individual contracts onto an EBA. I'd imagine you'd have to flip A LOT of burgers at Macca's, to make that kind of money.....

Meanwhile, VA is a great place to come to work, - we're not all out of the same sausage factory - and with the new routes and aircraft coming on line over the coming years, offers an attractive alternative for those of us who have had enough of expat-life.

Hoofharted
10th Mar 2010, 23:28
Actually P.A.F I was thinking on more of a global scale. However I must agree with you, this fool and his troupe of labotomised baboons have been an absolute disaster. Anyway I digress.

Mr.Buzzy
11th Mar 2010, 10:34
a Captain with VA currently has a salary in excess of 200K

:ugh: I don't think so.

bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

neville_nobody
11th Mar 2010, 12:01
I wouldn't be so quick to shoot him down Mr Buzzy V have individual contracts so if you were a Emirates 777 driver you might have been able to negotiate something in your favour at the beginning as CASA would have wanted a certain percentage of folk with time on type. However I agree the average V Captain is nowhere near that sort of salary.

I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!

However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.

Red Jet
11th Mar 2010, 22:20
However I agree the average V Captain is nowhere near that sort of salary.Agree amongst yourself to your hearts content:rolleyes:
Current VA Captain - (and that goes for ALL, except C&T & Training Captains who have the current industry standard additions) - base salary incl Super is AUD 201.830.
In addition to this is Loss of License Insurance, VB Group Profit Share Plan (up to 3% on top of Base Salary) and Individual Incentive Plan (Up to 5% of base salary). Allowances are payed according to local cost factor at slip port.

So - it's not great, but it's not as bad as some are making it out to be.

Those of you who have decided VA is not for you - great, enjoy whatever you're doing!

However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.Those people you are referring to ARE the market forces.

psycho joe
11th Mar 2010, 22:34
Current VA Captain - (and that goes for ALL, except C&T & Training Captains who have the current industry standard additions) - base salary incl Super is AUD 201.830.


Who includes super when mentioning a base salary figure?

Super aside, the base salary is less than that of a B737 Skipper. :hmm:

flamingmoe
11th Mar 2010, 22:34
I thought the Capt base salary was 175k? Has that changed recently?

neville_nobody
11th Mar 2010, 22:52
It is. V people just add super to make their salary sound higher than what it is. The reality is somewhere near 175K for a skipper. No overtime, No payment for working on a day off. At the setup stage with minimal routes it's not that bad a deal. The problem will be as it expands and you start working more and more you would want to tidy a few things in those contracts up.

A. Le Rhone
12th Mar 2010, 00:12
Even if it's 205k (which might sound good from a distance) the reality of living in Australia, paying tax in that bracket and trying to achieve just a little bit more than you would driving a bus or working as an accountant means this salary just doesn't go anywhere near far enough if you have kids at other than a public school and a mortgage.

The aspiration at minimum should be the Qantas salary of the mid-300's and even this by a global standard (currency variations aside) is not notable. Saying we should be happy with 205k by comparing salaries with a bus driver or shelf-stacker is irrelevant and emotive.

I might boldly predict however that as the global economy improves, disgruntled VA staff may well simply up-stumps and leave for greener/sandier pastures abroad - that was already happening at VB before the GFC. Why not work 1 year overseas for every 4 you need in Australia just to provide your family with the type of developmental possibilities we had ourselves as kids?

Red Jet
12th Mar 2010, 01:05
[QUOTE][you would want to tidy a few things in those contracts up./QUOTE]
That's precisely my point.:ok:And the best place to do that is from the inside, rather than sitting overseas, whinging about how bad things are back home (unless that's what suits you - of course....)

And I agree that QF Long haul Agreement is the yard stick - that's what we aspire to, but again - it would be completely unrealistic to expect to achieve that sort of package from the start.

And sorry Neville Nobody - I wasn't trying to paint the picture prettier than what it is (re the super). Just giving the facts to illustrate that it is in fact slightly better than Macca's.
Cheers - RJ

Section28- BE
12th Mar 2010, 05:08
For what it's worth- doing wages (non Aviation) here at the minute and have the gear in front of me, so a fast and dirty breakdown............ of $201,830 Gross inclusive of Super:

$201,830.00 less Super of $16,664.86 (being 9%) = $185,165.14 Gross before Tax.

Tax on $185,165.14 p.a. claiming the Tax-Free Threshold/ No Leave Loading = $60,996.00 p.a. for 09/10.

Therefore after Tax = $124,169.14 nett

Have a good weekend all
Rgds
S28- BE
.
(No warranty given or implied as to accuracy of calculations/information, in any shape or form.)

Zapatas Blood
12th Mar 2010, 09:14
Joe says "Super aside, the base salary is less than that of a B737 Skipper."

No, its more than that of a 737 skipper.

flamingmoe
12th Mar 2010, 10:05
Zapata...If those numbers are correct, and I havent heard of any change from the original 175k, then the BASE is a couple of grand more than the 737. But, if you consider overtime above 71hrs (approx 220/hr), and day off payments of over 1k a piece if you do not need the extra 3 days off a month that you get on the 737 and would like to sell them, then the difference is quite significant. But we're not comparing apples with apples, the 777 should be significanly more.

oicur12
12th Mar 2010, 18:47
High Bypass,

“STAY OVERSEAS or come home to V Australia, accept whats on offer and STFU !!”

I think that’s pretty much what has happened. Its twits like you doing the moaning.

Basil

“While people are knocking down their door on the current conditions - why would they??”

Ahhh, precisely. You are doing a fine job of arguing with yourself here, no input required.

Red Jet

“I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!”

So do I.

Neville,

“However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.”

Sorry, but you don’t get to decide who can participate in the market and who cannot. If a bunch of wealthy type rated soon to retire folk sans mortgage return to oz to work for a startup carrier then that’s life my friend. Deal with it.

Rhone

“The aspiration at minimum should be the Qantas salary”

Why.

Flamingmoe,

“..the 777 should be significanly more.”

Why?

air command
12th Mar 2010, 22:38
ZB, am not so sure the 777 skipper salary is higher than the 737... isn't the super at VA 12% (anyone confirm?) On Section 28's figures,that would put the base closer to $179,000. Current VB 737 base is $179,408, going to $184,791 on July 1 2010. Then with overtime and callouts, the 737 drivers are certainly better off. Hope the V guys can negotiate significant improvement in the EBA... with current management, that will be a difficult task.

Vorsicht
13th Mar 2010, 01:41
Hope the V guys can negotiate significant improvement in the EBA... with current management, that will be a difficult task.

The good news is that current management only has about 7 weeks left to run. If ever there is going to be a time that an opportunity to improve conditions was going to arrive, it will be in the next 12 months as JB comes to grips with the lack of engagement of current Virgin Group pilots.

If nothing changes, then I would suggest that there may well be a few more positions opening up at V for the returning expats, and aspiring newbies, than is currently anticipated.

Just to clarify recent postings about salary. At present the base pay (excluding super) for 737 and 777 pilots is approx the same (within a couple of K). The significant difference is that the 737 pay is for 71 hours in a roster period, and 777 pay is for 100 hours in a roster period. That is a 41% productivity increase that 777 pilots are providing, which should put 777 pay around 254k if we were comparing apples with apples. Add to this the fact that Ejet drivers get 20% less than 737 drivers because it is a smaller aircraft, and combine it with the fact that to get the workforce to agree to that little gem they promised the pilots that the trippler would be 20% more than a 737, we find that there are some serious pay discrepancies within the Virgin Group.

If you were to combine the productivity with the promised 20%, 777 pilots at V should be on 303k for 100hours per month, if we were comparing apples with apples.......... but we're not.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out there will be a retention problem as the world economy ramps up in the coming years, if the disparate pay across the group is not addressed in a reasonable time frame.

Another interesting point is that recent CC promotions have shown that the new CL's are on a base pay that does not include the recent CPI increase that everyone received. Therefore it is plausible, at this stage, that new joiners may well be on a lower salary than current employees, but we will have to wait and see. I will be interested to hear what the recent batch of CRFO's earn.

V:ok:

A. Le Rhone
13th Mar 2010, 01:43
Oicur...as usual you seem to know everything about everything.

Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum? What would you have instead? The Jetstar. Pacific Blue or Tiger wages?

Fortunately, shortly there will be too few pilots for too many aircraft and market forces will rule so we may achieve some improvements to our lot in spite of and not because of ourselves. Too many of us over the past few years have been too willing to undermine our peers and abuse them on PPRuNe. A most unsatisfactory state of affairs. If my knackered old memory serves me well enough oicur I think you have been one of those on PPRuNe over the years all too willing to criticise and undermine.

My own career was irreversably altered as a young guy when during a large dispute many years ago a bunch of opportunistic pilots undermined us to take jobs at domestic airlines that previously they would never have had a shot at. That sort of undermining continues to this day and whilst I am probably naieve hoping some of my peers may be able to consider others than themselves I am distressed that a few are so stupid as to not understand that their short-term gain in undermining colleagues also serves themselves poorly in the long run. Ironically for example, many of the opportunistic pilots in the abovementioned dispute, were by virtue of their reputations unable to gain employment elsewhere after one of those airlines collapsed. The karma of undermining?

At the moment QF A380/744 captains have the highest salaries in Australia. Globally those salaries aren't too much to crow about but they sure are better than Tiger or Jetstar salaries.

Consequently the QF salaries should be the yardstick for the rest of us and instead of doing everything we can to undermine those QF pilots we should be reinforcing those salary levels and using them as a yardstick.

As long as we undermine each other that will never happen.

oicur12
14th Mar 2010, 06:51
“Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum?”

Because QF conditions are way above the average “basket” of conditions within the region for similar job roles. A startup carrier like VOZ is never going to benchmark conditions against an incumbent like QF.

“What would you have instead? The Jetstar. Pacific Blue or Tiger wages?”

And any other jet operator in the region too. The average of these is a good place to start.

“fortunately, shortly there will be too few pilots for too many aircraft….”

Never the case in oz. You mean too few pilots with the perceived required experience for the number of aircraft. It’s a very different thing.

“…. and market forces will rule……”

Precisely the point being made by myself, and some others too. Market forces work both ways. They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn. VOZ conditions are sufficient to attract the required headcount to operate their fleet, so apparently the market has spoken.

I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying.

psycho joe
14th Mar 2010, 07:36
“Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum?”

Because QF conditions are way above the average “basket” of conditions within the region for similar job roles. A startup carrier like VOZ is never going to benchmark conditions against an incumbent like QF.


You'd have made an awesome high-jumper, what with the bar sitting on the ground and all. :ugh:

I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying.

So what's your point? should an American on low wages be the benchmark that we aspire to?

Why stop there? Lets find some other tenuous link. I'm sure there are rickshaw drivers in Bangladesh earning less than a US dollar a day. :ugh:

neville_nobody
14th Mar 2010, 07:53
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying

Well if he works for Fedex or UPS I'd suggest you inquire a little further into his salary as those guys are some of the best paid pilots in the world.

A. Le Rhone
14th Mar 2010, 11:37
Hooray neville and psycho - some awareness of reality prevails at last!

oicur, you should come to HK and see what a 744 Captain earns in comparison to his 'lowly' QF counterpart (whom you erroneously seem to believe earns "way above average"). The likes of CX and Fedex are the yardsticks we should be aiming for with our salaries not crummy operators like Tiger. Why aim low? Unless of course your sympathies lie purely with management and thus you will happily screw every last penny from us overpaid glorified bus drivers into your own pocket. Some of your posts seem to lean this way.

And "never the case in Oz" for pilot shortage? Ask Rex about that! Have you actually been awake over the last 10 years? VB also had a mini-exodus some time back and this will resume as the GFC abates and overseas airlines become increasingly desperate.

And finally, your last point 'Market forces work both ways. They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn'. Why the hell not? Management have screwed pilots for years using this principal, why shouldn't professional pilots do the same? Particularly when the same management repeatedly cry poor (Dixon) then make tens/hundreds of millions in profits and pocket obscene amount in bonuses. What a farce.

I can only assume/hope oicur you are not a professional pilot because with attitudes like yours who needs enemies? Our own are all too willing to undercut us and thereby damage our collective fortunes. Your previous posts illustrate this point far more clearly than my words ever could.

Metro man
14th Mar 2010, 14:12
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD.

Some scumbag 747-200 operator no doubt. Still, at least he's getting heavy jet time :hmm:

V OZ are an international airline operating modern equipment in a first world country so the bench mark for comparison should be similar. I'm sure their conditions look good compared to Air Atlanta Icelandic or MK Airlines but they aren't the competition.

How does V OZ compare to their competitors on the same routes operating similar equipment ? Surely that's a better yard stick.

oicur12
15th Mar 2010, 04:11
You can "aspire" to anything you like. The point being that, devoid of any industrial baggage like QF, a startup like VOZ will be guided largely by market forces. Your personal aspirations have little to do with it.

“Well if he works for Fedex or UPS…..”

No, he doesn’t. And you are correct, these 2 outfits compensate significantly above average. The majority of widebody cargo pilots in the US earn a similar income as my friend.

“ The likes of CX and Fedex are the yardsticks we should be aiming for with our salaries not crummy operators like Tiger. Why aim low?”

Again, you can “aim” for whatever salary you would like to. In a competitive market, the employees will be paid no more than what the market determines is suitable.

“They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn'. Why the hell not?”

As silly as saying why can’t the sun rise in west. You appear to believe that you can influence the forces of supply and demand to suit yourself. Interesting theory. How is it working so far?

“I can only assume/hope oicur you are not a professional pilot because with attitudes like yours who needs enemies?”

Yes, I am a professional pilot. Does it make you uncomfortable that a different viewpoint is held by one of your own? Perhaps I should just follow the rest of the tribe and bitch and moan about how unfair it is to earn 200 grand.

“How does V OZ compare to their competitors on the same routes operating similar equipment ? Surely that's a better yard stick.”

Should VOZ crew aspire to the salary of a TG pilot when flying to Thailand. What about Fiji?

psycho joe
15th Mar 2010, 07:36
In a competitive market, the employees will be paid no more than what the market determines is suitable.

This "market forces" mantra sounds more and more like an excuse for mediocrity. Considering that the Aviation market both in Oz and globally are largely manipulated by various governments, ownership groups and management execs; There will ALWAYS be a market excuse for low employee wages & poor conditions. Just as there will always be an excuse for high executive bonuses, etc.:hmm:

The only answer is strong unions working together with a long term view of gaining real improvement for its constituency.:D

"Market forces" be damned. As it stands Vaus is making a profit; so there is no good reason for conditions to not improve. But only as long as the employee groups stay smart & work together. :ok:

breakfastburrito
15th Mar 2010, 07:52
oicur12, I believe an economist would call the "pilot market" a market failure. There is a great deal of asymmetry in the relative powers of the the two sides, on the one hand, there are really only two or three buyers and many many sellers. informal collusion or tacit agreement between the employers is possible to ensure the "pilot market" is effectively rigged. Exec's even boast of this.

Of course this suits everyone, except the pilots. When the wage component isn't even equivalent to the GST on the airport charge's component (for a domestic airfare), you know something is not right. You could argue the "pilot cost" component that may have existed in the past, has been appropriated by the airports monopoly game. MacBank is harder to push around than the pilots, said another way, its easier to take from crew than pick a real fight with the airports.

You proffer TG or Fiji salaries to compare, but not the living costs in those countries, why is that? It is what your pay packet will purchase that's important, not it's quanta.

Market forces, you must be kidding, there's no such thing, its a rigged game.