Aerobatic Training in the Shoreham area

[joelgarabedian]

I've tried searching the forums, but haven't found an existing thread to help, so apologies if this has been covered before. I'd like to experience some (gentle) aerobatics, and possibly undergo a little aerobatic training. As a low hour PPL, I'm mainly interested in experiencing more of the flight envelope - the most extreme thing I've encountered so far is a wing drop when stalling a Tomahawk ;)

Is it too early to be thinking about aerobatics? Learning under supervision feels like a good way to improve my skills. Whether I've got the grapes for it is another matter entirely, but there's only one way to find out!

However, the usually infallible Google has let me down on this occasion - not only can I not find anything suitable close to Shoreham, the few places I have found details for seem to focus on one off "experience flights" rather than the potential for structured learning.

If anyone has any advice or recommendations, I'd be most grateful.

Thanks all,

Joel.

[tinpilot]

It's never too early to try aerobatics.

The Real Flying Company (http://www.realflyingcompany.com/aeroflite.htm)
Southern Flying Centre (http://www.southernflyingcentre.co.uk/aerobatics.htm)

Both at Shoreham

[joelgarabedian]

Thanks TinPilot, glad you don't think I'm jumping the gun with aerobatics. Maybe I should have used my legs instead of Google! I've seen the Chipmunk at Shoreham but never realised it belonged to The Real Flying Company - they're based away from the main terminal building and I'd forgotten all about them. I'll give them a call!

Joel.

[Flashheart II]

Pooley's flying instructor school might be able to help. They are a flight instructor school but might be able to do a aeros course aswell.

[joelgarabedian]

Thanks Flashheart, that's another lead worth following up :ok:

[Blues&twos]

Joelgarabedian

I used the Real Flying Company at Shoreham last year for my first experience of aerobatics in their open-cockpit Stampe - booked as a trial flight. I would thoroughly recommend them.

Victor was the instructor and the whole thing was excellent, professionally run (but very friendly). Made me feel welcome and explained what could and couldn't be done, at the briefing before the flight. We did the usual stuff, loops, rolls, stall turns and because I'd asked if we could, we did some spins too. I don't think the Stampe can do sustained inverted flight.
As is usual for a trial flight, I flew the aircraft for a while although of course, steep turns and a bit of low level flying was as close to aerobatics as I was allowed!)

If you haven't done it before, be prepared to feel a bit queasy at some point and tell the instructor straight away (for this reason it might be worth booking a 40min flight to begin with rather than going for a 60min). I (attempt to) fly a Pitts special with an aerobatics instructor friend of mine from time to time and even after probably 10 flights with him, I still get a bit queasy after about 20 minutes, but then it's a bit more full-on than a trial flight would be. Make sure you keep looking outside the cockpit!!

Warning....it's very addictive.....:ok:

[hugh flung_dung]

If you're happy to drive a little further, Bournemouth Flying Club have a Bulldog and Old Sarum (Salisbury) have a CAP10c. Both are available for hire, as well as aerobatic training and trial lessons - ability to hire is an important consideration when choosing a school. The Bulldog and CAP10 are excellent aerobatic training aircraft: side-by-side seating, reasonably powerful, good climb rates and easy to fly - important considerations when choosing an aircraft to train in.

As others have said, it's never too early or too late to learn. At the moment there's no requirement to complete a full course of aeros but many people choose to follow the AOPA basic syllabus so that there is a structure to their learning and a specific goal at the end - to pass the test! Having done that you will probably have grandfather rights when/if the requirement for an aerobatic rating is introduced. AOPA also have standard and intermediate syllabuses if you want to progress, or you can go à la carte.

Someone said that they weren't allowed to try aeros on a trial lesson - that's surprising. When I take someone on an aerobatic trial lesson I will offer to teach them how to fly basic wingovers, loops and ballistic rolls - if they handle these then it's usually possible to talk them through a barrel roll after a couple of demos. With an experienced aeros instructor and reasonable airspace you can do a heck of a lot in 30 minutes if you have an aircraft that performs well and is easy to fly.

HFD

[joelgarabedian]

Thanks Blues&Twos and HFD,

After finding out that The Real Flying Club are at Shoreham, and that they've got a Chipmunk (an aircraft I'd love to try), I think I'll get in touch with them and arrange a trial sortie. I'll let you know how it goes! :ok:

Joel.

[will fly for food 06]

There will be a super decathlon based at Shoreham soon for aerobatic training.

[Blues&twos]

Someone said that they weren't allowed to try aeros on a trial lesson

Actually, thinkiing back, I didn't ask if I could try any manoeuvres as I assumed I wouldn't be able to (rather than being told I wasn't allowed). So it would certainly be worth asking.

[Mark1234]

There's also a pitts available at shoreham, and the aforementioned decathlon. Both available through Phoenix flying; believe the same is also available through SFC.

[M14_P]

Very curious as to why they would not allow it, even if you are in a tandem seat aircraft, with a thorough briefing you should be able to allow the student to have a look at a few briefed figures. This has never been a problem for me in the Pitts, even people with zero aerobatic time, with height in hand you are so far ahead of them you can always take over if you need to.
Sounds like a busy aerobatic scene there in the UK, exciting stuff. :)

cheers,

[Blues&twos]

M14 P, if you have a look at my previous post you'll see they didn't disallow it...I just didn't ask!

My first actual go at aerobatics was in a friend's Pitts shortly afterwards, and fantastic fun it was (and still is). Taxiing the thing was interesting the first time I tried it too!

[joelgarabedian]

I've just booked a trial lesson with Phoenix Flying at Shoreham after a recommendation through a PM and great chat with their CFI - Plus the temptation of the Bulldog was too strong to resist! Fingers crossed for the weather on Sunday :ok:

[james hepnar]

Hey Mate.

Great choice. I started flying with Phoenix Flying straight after obtaining my PPL, I got checked out on the Bulldog G-CBGX which I have grown to adore. (its my Baby) :p

Its such a fantastic aeroplane to fly, and aeroplane you never get bored of, its fantastic for nav because of the visibility out of the canopy but its also a fantastic aerobatic aircraft. so its best of both worlds.

The CFI is brilliant, He took me from a basic novice PPL and taught me that there is much more to a PPL than just straight and level.

I couldn't recomend Stuart more, In less than 1 year I have moved from a PA28 to doing aerobatics in the Bulldog, in that time we have covered, Aileron Rolls, Hesitation Rolls, Loops, Cuban Eights, Flick Rolls, Avalanches and Stall Turns, all of which the Bulldog copes with very well,and not only did he teach them to me to a very high standard but I can now do them with confidence on my own and with freinds which is what its all about.

Stuart also got me checked out to fly in and out of some fantastic private airstrips that are scattered around the south (good fun!, I recomend it highly)

I hope your flight goes well on Sunday, You will love the Bulldog...everyone who flies it does. Listen to Stu, he teaches his students to a very high standard and you can learn a hell of alot from him.

Happy flying mate. James

[joelgarabedian]

Thanks James,

I hadn't looked at this thread for a few days, and had missed your post, so apologies for the delayed response. The weather was terrible this morning, but I headed down there anyway just to meet Stuart and see the Bulldog.

We had a long chat, then moved onto a briefing on the complex prop on the Bulldog, and general performance figures. I also met another James, who was planning on flying the Pitts, but had opted not to due to the weather. We were thinking of calling it a day when there was a break in the weather, so Stuart and I went for it!

With the exception of a couple of hours in a C152 and a PA28, all of my (very limited) experience has been on the Tomahawk. I love the Tomahawk, but the Bulldog was something of a revelation. The power and control authority were just phenomenal! And it felt much more stable on the takeoff roll than the Tomahawk - which I hadn't expected. I wasn't sure how I'd cope with a stick after only using a control wheel before, but I didn't really notice the difference.

We headed North, then Stuart demonstrated an aileron roll. Then I had a go - my first aerobatic manoeuvre! It felt amazing! Then we did a loop - again Stuart demonstrated and talked me through what he was doing, then let me attempt one. It felt absolutely incredible - I had wondered if I'd be scared, but I wasn't at all. We did a quick low pass over the airstrip at Washington, and with the weather deteriorating again, decided to call it a day.

A steep nose down attitude and 80 knots feels alot faster than the 70 I'm used to in the Tomahawk, but Stuart talked me through each stage to a pretty decent landing.

So there we go! In one 35 minute flight I've discovered I love the Bulldog and love loops and rolls! I can't wait to go up in the Bulldog again and have another go! Hope to meet you sometime soon James :ok:

Joel.

[custard guts]

You lucky guys to have flown with Stuart - he is the business! Friendly, professional and extremely able when it comes to teaching aeros. Flight training does not come better than that and if you are not fully satisfied I will give you your money back!

[Blues&twos]

I can't wait to go up in the Bulldog again and have another go!

Remember this?

Warning....it's very addictive.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Glad you enjoyed it!

[joelgarabedian]

Thanks Blues&Twos,

You were right - I'm hooked! I haven't stopped grinning since yesterday :ok:

[Mark1234]

Just wait until you try a pitts :E

[Zulu Alpha]

Just wait until you try a pitts

.....and just wait until you move on from a Pitts to a monoplane.

[checkpointcharlie]

Well said David. I always knew the Super Decathlon was an outstanding aeroplane.;)

[will fly for food 06]

I enjoy flying the Super Decathlon.

[hugh flung_dung]

And just wait until you try a Cap10c :O
Much nicer than a Super Decathlon and much more enjoyable than a Pitts (although admittedly not quite as capable).

IMHO, for training it's hard to beat a Bulldog for recreational aeros and a Cap10c for something a little more capable - and I think I would feel the same if I didn't have a slight vested interest.

HFD

[eharding]

And just wait until you try a Cap10c :O
Much nicer than a Super Decathlon and much more enjoyable than a Pitts

In much the same way that an MX5 is more enjoyable than a Caterham Seven - i.e. only of you're a hair-dresser.

[Mark1234]

I did think that technically the bulldog is a monoplane.. so is the much derrided alpha-robin. :E (backpacker along shortly?)

Either way, we're all having more fun than those fuddy duddy types who think the world ends at 45degrees of bank :ok:

I'm strictly recreational; of everything I've flown pitts puts more of a smile on my face even if I'm only in the circuit, somehow it's always an event, if only because you know at some point you have to land the thing! But they all make me smile..

[Blues&twos]

of everything I've flown pitts puts more of a smile on my face even if I'm only in the circuit, somehow it's always an event, if only because you know at some point you have to land the thing!

The scariest bit of the flight....dancing shoes at the ready.
(And I'm just the passenger).

[james hepnar]

I am now flying the Super Decathlon at Phoenix flying (G-IZZZ) really enjoy flying it, supprised me alot, much more capable that I first thaught and flys inverted really really well :)

[BackPacker]

(backpacker along shortly?)

Hmmm. Must've missed this one...:ok:

Anyway, I was reading Brian Lecombers article in the latest Flyer, and what surprised me was that he considers both the C152 Aerobat and the Robin/Alpha R2160 "standard" level while the Super Decathlon can be used up to "intermediate".

I always thought that the C152 was barely capable of LAROSA (Loops and Rolls on Sunday Afternoon) aerobatics, and the R2160 and Decathlon were about an even match at Standard level.

Can you really fly a "Standard" sequence in a C152, in the 2000' box height you have to spare with no breaks, and can you really fly an "Intermediate" sequence in a Decathlon within the box height (2300' I think) without any breaks?

In that case, I might have to set my sights on the Decathlon instead of the Cap-10 as my next step. I'm getting pretty close to outgrowing the R2160.

[Mark1234]

BP. The Super D with the CS prop is definitely a significant step up from the R2160. It's similar in roll rate, nice inverted, and gets a lot more penetration due to the engine keeping going all the time. No idea how it compares to the Cap10, and I don't have any numbers comparison to the 2160, just a subjective feeling it's a good bit more capable.

[BackPacker]

Ah, well, inverted flight capability would make a lot of difference, yes. I guess it would transform the R2160 from a Standard machine to an Intermediate machine too.

(Currently trying to get the finesse back to do an Immelman in the R2160 while keeping the engine running, and not dropping like a stone afterwards...:ugh:)

[eharding]

Anyway, I was reading Brian Lecombers article in the latest Flyer, and what surprised me was that he considers both the C152 Aerobat and the Robin/Alpha R2160 "standard" level while the Super Decathlon can be used up to "intermediate".

Legend that he is, BL hasn't been seen on the competition circuit for a long, long time. I'd take an unhealthy dose of salt with any assertion he makes about what is competitive at what level.

[AirUK]

Hi guys,

I realise this is an old thread, but I wondered if anyone knew what happened to Phoenix Flying at Shoreham? I was interested in doing some aeros in the Bulldog or Super Decathlon and maybe doing the full AOPA course there a while back, but it seems they may have shut up shop since I last did my research? I hope not as the place looked great and certainly sounded great from all the positive reviews above and not too far away either. Failing that, does anyone have anywhere else they could recommend instead? The Real Flying Co. looks a good alternative, but as an ex-Air Cadet I was dreaming about flying the Bulldog again!

Any advice/ideas most appreciated!

[RAT 5]

It's not too far, but have you considered Aces High at Goodwood? They have a variety of a/c unto an Extra 300.

[memories of px]

stuart mckinnon used to run phoenix, but he must have changed his number, i believe he spends more of his time at BA these days, the real flying co. have some great guys, mathew hill for one.

[foxmoth]

It's not too far, but have you considered Aces High at Goodwood? They have a variety of a/c unto an Extra 300.

I think you mean Ultimate High! Excellent mainly ex service instructors and the Extra is something WAY more than a Pitts!:ok:

[Proteus9]

I had a pretty negative experience with Phoenix flying a couple of years ago.
I was wanting to fly reasonably frequently when I was visiting the area and after a good chat had a great few days flying aeros.

However the next few times, despite giving lots of notice of coming and being told someone was about. There would never be anyone available. In the end I just gave up with them.

[janrein]

Also a couple of years ago I had a very good experience with Phoenix Flying/Pooley's. I flew with an absolute ace pilot in the Super Decathlon, Bulldog, RV4, and Extra300. Immensely instructive and higly enjoyable. I had to wait a few days for one of the aeroplanes before it came out of maintenance, but flew on the others meanwhile. Really couldn't complain. This was summer 2011.
jr

[memories of px]

if you want the best and you want shoreham, you want justyn gorman. check out his videos on youtube.
Justyn Gorman Aerobatics (http://www.jg-aerobatics.co.uk/)

[janrein]

Fully agree
jr