Garmin GTS 800 Traffic system

[englishal]

Does anyone use one of these in Europe? I was wondering what sort of cost one is looking at to get one fitted? In the US you can get them from about $13,000 installed (dual hull mounted antenna). We're in the processing of revamping our aeroplane and avionics and it is something else I may add to the shopping list (which is growing rather large at the moment :eek:)....

Cheers

[wigglyamp]

This Garmin traffic system only got EASA ETSO approval a couple of weeks ago so I doubt anyone has had time to complete an EASA design package and get an AFMS approved. If you're on the N reg, you can ahead immediately using Garmin's FAA STC which covers loads of aircraft.

The $13000 cost you mention would be comparable in Europe (excluding VAT). A similar cost will result if you went for the Avidyne TAS600.

[englishal]

Thanks wigglyamp, most helpful. Avionics are a bit of a mine field as far as I am concerned! We're basically refitting our aeroplane including all new avionics and so I'm trying to gather as much info as I can so we can specify an avionics fit and budget. Many people on here have been very helpful, so thanks.

So far our fit is likely to include:
G500
430W
SL30
Possibly a traffic system of some kind
Possibly replace ADF/DME with modern units though seems a waste of money to me
Possiby a new AP

We should be on the N reg before too long so hopefully our avionics upgrades will be more straighforward.

Cheers

[IO540]

One Q to ask is which system is a bigger mess to install.

The TAS600 needs all the seats out, all the trims stripped off, most/all existing aerials relocated (and of course rewired), and takes ~ 3 weeks. I've seen it done. No way would I want that much downtime, not to mention the potential for delays if the shop gets busy on a project where the customer screams louder than me :)

Otherwise, I would install TCAS tomorrow.

Not that I think it delivers value for money because most UK GA flies below 1500-2000ft, and most of Europe is totally devoid of GA traffic anyway.

GPWS/TAWS is potentially far more valuable because you could fly at 700ft AGL all your life, blindfolded, and 99.9% probably not hit anything, but one screwup on an approach near real obstacles, or descending at night/IMC while forgetting to press the ALT ARM button on the autopilot, and you will be history :)

Edit: a $13000 installation cost in the UK is astonishing. The lowest I have seen actually paid was £12000 - N-reg or G-reg. Of this, about £1500 was reportedly the purchase of the paperwork pack from a well known avionics shop which sells them.

Then there is the Honeywell TCAS system which 2 people I know paid £25k for. One of them also paid £25k for the Honeywell GPWS system.....

[englishal]

Actually it wouldn't be too hard to fit in our aeroplane at the moment as all the seats, trim and carpet are out which is why I'mtrying to think ahead;) But it is not too big a job to remove these bits anyway. But I have a special tool I use, it is called Colin. It is automatic, if I say "we need to change the windscreen", colin goes into Auto and next time I am there, the windscreen has been changed :} I can lend it to you if you like?

But seriously to fit the hull antenna wouldn't be a big job, though I believe there has to be 2 co-ax cables run from each antenna to the box. The box could be located in the tail, behind the baggage compartment bulkhead and a serial cable or two run under the carpet to the G500 / another-display-device. The Avidyne seems to have 4 outputs on it.

I like the idea of keeping everything Garmin though, athough the Avidyne system looks pretty good. I think I've used this before in the DA42 and it works well. We already have the GTX330 so is it legal to wire this up to the GTS800 to squirt out ADS-B?

They both retail for $9995 and if you have a friendly Garmin agent then possibly cheaper, though I appreciate that instalation will cost a bit.

[soay]

This Garmin traffic system only got EASA ETSO approval a couple of weeks ago so I doubt anyone has had time to complete an EASA design package and get an AFMS approved.
So, for someone who's new to all this, would you mind explaining what that would entail for an aircraft with G1000 avionics, such as a DA40 or C172? Some idea of likely extra cost would also be appreciated.

Thanks.

[wigglyamp]

You can install most current traffic systems with a G1000 - Honeywell KTA870, Avidyne TAS600, L-3 Skywatch etc. Approval on an EU aircraft is via a minor change and an AFM supplement approved under an EASA Form 36. The minor change cost will depend on whether the avionic shop already has some prior similar approvals, but if generated from scratch, could cost £900-1200. The Form 36 approval for the AFM supplement costs about €260.
The Avidyne TAS system already has an approval on all Part 23 single-engined aircraft via a German LBA-validation of an FAA STC, so no additional design and certification fees are applicable.

If IO-540- talks to the avionic shop who worked on his autopilot last year, he may be surprised to hear that a TAS system can be installed for under £12K where an FAA AML STC exists, and that a G500 definitely does not cost £45k!

[IO540]

If IO-540- talks to the avionic shop who worked on his autopilot last year, he may be surprised to hear that a TAS system can be installed for under £12K where an FAA AML STC exists, and that a G500 definitely does not cost £45k!Wigglyamp...

I thought for a while before posting this, since I have zero interest in upsetting somebody who I may one day need the services of [again], and I am only about 50% sure that I know who you are... although I am about 75% sure I know which avionics shop you work for.

If you are who I think you are, you are far and away the most technically competent avionics bloke I have met in the UK - and I've met a few.

The problem is that you are not always in the office. So, that "autopilot" job, which I was told would be a few hours, and I know (having watched it before elsewhere) should take less than a working day, was done by people who were somewhat less up to speed than you would have been, and took two days and a night in a local hotel for me. That was with considerable assistance from me, assembling a certain adaptor from a flat-packed kit, which took a few hours. Not to mention taking photographs of the servo bridle cables before their removal, enabling them to be correctly replaced.

I enjoyed doing it - electronics has been my hobby since age 6 and my profession since day 1, and I like to know my plane. But I talk to many owners and cannot help observing that "project management" does just occassionally tend to be somewhat sub-optimal in this game, and consequently the costings tend to be somewhat less precise than one may have originally anticipated... or, indeed, had received as a quotation. In fairness to you, on that AP job, following my request you did take the various factors into account on the final bill, but it still cost me a helluva lot more, all included, than I expected.

Of course, I may have got the wrong avionics shop, but it should not matter since I don't actually know who you are and neither does anybody else here.

In a similar vein, not every customer has a detailed understanding of inter-vendor interoperability limitations and it is thus not unknown for some people to get a slight suprise when their £30k refit is not quite as fully integrated as they may have expected...

I therefore hope that you understand why I have a habit of issuing various words of caution to the (apparently many) people who have £30k burning a hole in their pocket :)

I was quoted 48k euros by Socata in France for installing a G500 and a GNS430. I am sure they would do a good job; anybody who can screw a G1000 into a TBM850 cannot be that bad. But I absolutely bet my boots that that price is the base figure and doesn't include any "extras", and the resulting downtime would be long enough to do an engine overhaul at the same time. One UK avionics shop (yours?) published an "advertorial" the other week in which a base cost of £25k was mentioned for a G500, which is in a similar ballpark considering that a GNSx30 is mandatory for the G500.

For reasons I don't fully understand, many of these big jobs tend to over-run on time, over-run on cost, under-deliver in terms of functionality, or under-deliver in legal capability approvals.

To minimise the chance of this happening, the customer needs a clear understanding of what he is getting, but (speaking of avionics shops generally; not yours) I tend to find that the more I learn about something, the more I realise that what somebody is quoting for is pretty unlikely to be the final working version. And "you" (if indeed it is "you") still haven't done a quote for that last thing I asked about :)