BMIbus emergency at BHD

[carlos vandango]

bmi bus had some problems on the way into BHD last night. lots of fire engines racing across Belfast to meet it but nothing on the news. Anyone got the gen?

[high & fast]

Was mentioned on the local NI news but no more details than you have stated.

[newswatcher]

From the Beeb:

"Emergency crews at Belfast City Airport were put on standby on Thursday evening when the pilot of a British Midland flight reported engine problems. The flight, from London, landed safely."

[CaptAirProx]

Was in the air that night. I believe the pilot just announced that he had abnormal engine indications and would like a priority landing. The one night we were all coming home early due lack of head winds and BMI sorted that one out. Held for 20 mins. What happened to the old saying PanPan?

[wooof]

CaptAirProx

In my experience saying panpan would not have prevented any delays. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> :) :)

[Airprox]

No but Capt AP (name thief) is correct.. .Airline pilots are reluctant to used the key phrases to get assistance. Out side the UK Pan or Pan Pan is not widely used and can cause confusion with the controller, be here in the UK it should be used.

[go_around]

The Midland bus driver did declare a Pan hence the delays for some of the other aircraft. The Man flt was far enough ahead to land and be out of the way unfortunately putting another one in front of the bus would have given him extra track miles - incidentally excellent help and co-ordination from Muckamore made life a lot less hassle than there could have been <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Stagnation Point]

Airprox. .. .Pan is an internationally recognised call for urgency.

[Hand Solo]

In theory, but it's not widely recognised in the USA and I suspect a whole of host of other countries as well.

[moleslayer]

Tried it once in France a few years back, they hadn't a clue what I was on about........ .. .Probably thought I was asking for three loaves of bread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Young Paul]

... and English is the international standard language for ATC as well ....

[CaptAirProx]

Woof, wasn't suggesting that the pan would have resolved the delays. Just seems odd that British pilots are still reluctant to use PapPan. From my experience it lets everyone know on a busy frequency to shut up and let me sort the problem out with the controller. Rather than everyone carrying on as normal because the pilot is playing it down. . .Aldergrove did a great job till they tried to descended us into the Mourns below MSA. Otherwise it was a fun ride round Co.Down.

[CaptAirProx]

22 in Use, correct me but I seem to remember it was the controller who had to pull this declaration out of the bus driver after he had reported the abnormal indications.

[moleslayer]

There is no requirement to cease transmissions when a PAN is on the air,only when DISTRESS traffic is on freq.. .Obviously a bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss, but it's up to the PIC to judge the level of assistance req'd.

[CAVU]

Hand Solo. .. .There should be no reason for either US controllers or pilots (unless they have received poor training) to be unfamiliar with Pan calls. It is clearly defined, and its use explained, in the US Airmans Information Manual.. .. .Do you have an experience that indicates otherwise?. . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 23:12: Message edited by: CAVU ]</small>

[CaptAirProx]

Moleslayer, I'm sure you are correct but I was'nt trying to be pedantic. I am trying to highlight the fact that on hearing PanPan, most pilots tend to shut up as they are immediately aware of a problem developing. Just chatting away to the controller about the odd little problem tends to get lost in the audiences background chitter chatter. I have found PanPan gets everyones ears up and the odd octave on the controllers voice! Clear, concise and to the point. Isn't that what R/T is meant to be about?

[somewhatconcerned]

Wouldn't a Pan call involve lengthy paperwork excercises??

[go_around]

Capt Airprox - from earlier, all I know is that the aircraft was handed over already having declared a Pan. I also agree that pilots should not be wary or afraid to declare a Pan if things are not as they should be, from my point of view as a controller, it is a lot easier to get things organised on the ground when the aircraft is a distance away rather than wait until they are turning onto a six mile final and then say - "By the way, did I forget to mention ....." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[moleslayer]

I am in wholehearted agreement with all comments suggesting a timely notification to 'British' ATC of an on-board problem.You can always downgrade.. .However IWLTK if anybody has had a similar experience to my Paris TMA debacle(previous post).. .It may be true that PAN is international,but is it taught to be used in the same way as the UK?. .. .Any French pilot or preferably controller care to comment?. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 17:39: Message edited by: moleslayer ]</small>

[golfyankeesierra]

Funny thing: pan (panne) originates from french, meaning something like breakdown (ie your car). Problem with the French is, they don't understand french when spoken by a foreigner (when it is not 100% perfect without any accent).

[Standard Noise]

Personally, I don't think it matters whether a pan call is recognised in other countries. The fact is that IT IS recognised in the UK. Why smartie tube drivers seem to think that it's an admission of failure to declare a Pan or Mayday once they know they have a problem is quite beyond me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .As a passenger, I'd like to think the pilot was using all means possible to get me on the ground ASAP, if the a/c had developed some sort of problem. If that means geeing up the controller who then gives the a/c a shorter track mileage, then so be it.. .If a Pan is called, I will immediately call a Full Emergency, because it covers all the angles. Anyway, it's easier to downgrade an emergency than upgrade one. The complexity of many airports' emergency procedures dictate this.. .. .somewhatconcerned - I don't think paper work is anybodys primary concern in any emergency situation. For those who think it is, you need to have a good look at your priorities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Captairprox - from what I've been told, Aldergrove did a great job full stop. I'm sure any descent below MSA was merely an oversight brought about by a complex situation.(I'm sticking up for them now, I must be going soft in my old age!). .. .As an aside, I remember an incident during my brief time at LGW where a 757 belonging to a certain UK charter operator, declared a Pan. The Atco in the tower (a man with 25 years+ experience in the profession) called a Full Emergency (the pilot was being somewhat vague as to the problem as I recall). The airline station manager heard on a scanner that a FE was being organised, and phoned the ATC Watch Manager in the tower to complain and demanded that it be downgraded to a Local Standby, as the sight of all those blue lights would only frighten the passengers. He was told in no uncertain terms to go away. Did rather beg the question, what would have frightened the pax more, lots of blue lights and a safe landing, or lots of flames and no blue lights to be seen? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> And why did someone other than an Atco or possibly a Fire Officer think he had a right to determine what level of emergency to call??? . .Strange old world innit?. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 10:06: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</small>

[Max Angle]

I am sure that any ATCOs reading this will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that there are rules laid down as to when a full alert or local standby is used. My understanding is that if an a/c has reported any kind of hydraulic, flight control or engine problem then an alert is called. That suits me fine, the closer all the emergency services are to us when we land with a problem the better, it's good practice for everyone anyway. . .. .I remember a few years back we had a memo round from the company urging us to choose our words carefully when reporting problems so we did not get an over reaction from ATC leading to unwelcome media attention. It was made very clear however that the decision rested firmly with us at the time and it was better to be honest with ATC if you really had a problem. Events and incidents get reported very fast (and sometimes, very badly) nowadays, loads of jornos and spotters listen out on the radio just to hear something that they can report. About 5 years ago one of our a/c had an engine failure coming out of LHR, they landed back about 15 minutes later. I understand that a newspaper had called the company for a comment before the a/c had even got back on the ground!.

[PAXboy]

Stupid questions from a back seat rider .... .. .What is 'Pan' short for?. .When did the term come into use?. .. .thanks

[Four Seven Eleven]

PAXBoy. .. .Golfyankeesierra had it right a few posts back:. .. .From the French 'panne' meaning 'breakdown' or 'failure'.. .. .A new question: Is 'securite' still used anywhere? It used to mean "this is urgent but I am not in distress" or something similar.

[Stagnation Point]

PAXboy. .. .Pan is a code word that is used t indicate a state of urgency as opposed to mayday which is a distress situation. If an acft capt used either in his/her transmissions then it indicates the degree of seriousness that the problem he/she is in.. .. .A couple of simple examples, an engine fire would initially warrant a mayday which could be downgraded to a Pan once the fire had been extinguished. AN engine failure in a single engined acft would be a Mayday untilthe acft had landed, where as an engine failure in a 4 engine would be a pan.. .. .Thes are only general comments and all situations are open to personnel interpretaions and experience. I did hear a rumour once that a 737 landed single engine without a word to ATC, but the controllers did notice a change in speed of the acft as it was enroute. I also educated a FO one day who was reluctant to relate a problem we were having to ATC because he thought it was embarrasing. Its not our fault when things go wrong mechanically with the acft but the way we handle it afterwards can affect the outcome.. .. .Hope I haven't bored you to tears.

[David Hurst]

Regarding the comment about lots of blue lights frightening the passengers, when I was at sunny Gatwick many years ago there were a series of discussions about the need for the local authority fire brigade to charge up the A23 out of Crawley every time there was a full emergency. There had never been a case at Gatwick where a declared full emergency had turned into an accident and the airport fire service were always on hand.. .The discussion had arisen because of rising fuel costs and local authority budget problems. Frightening the passengers was mentioned as another excuse.. .Luckily, in my opinion, no-one was prepared to be the one to make the decision to change the orders and therefore call Mr Murphy to invoke his Law so, as far as I know, everyone still turns out.

[Standard Noise]

Max, there are guidelines which Atcos take their lead from, but my personal interpretation is that as it's my ass in the hotseat, I will decide what level of emergency to apply with regards to the various emergency services. There is the old phrase, "at the subsequent board of inquiry.....", and as far as I am concerned, I don't plan on attending such an inquiry.. .. .What a pilot, airline ops manager or even airport fire officer thinks, has no bearing on my initial decision, although I would entertain advice from a fire officer at a later stage in the emergency, and have done in the past.. .There are some airports which have a culture of "call a full emergency no matter what" and while I don't particularly subscribe to this idea, if that is what it takes to keep me in the right, then so be it.. .. .As for the comment on journos, they will get their story no matter what, so why should I give a monkeys how they get it? An Atco's job is to ensure that the a/c get from A to B as quickly and safely as possible, not to protect an airline's image in the event of an emergency, that's what they pay PR men to do.. .. .Stagnation - you raise an interesting point about that FO feeling embarrassed, any idea why? If his car had broken down on the way home, would he have been too embarrassed to call the AA or RAC?. .As you said, these things happen, but it's all about making sure an emergency doesn't turn into a disaster.. .. .Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 00:46: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</small>

[newswatcher]

Woodman,. .. .Good idea so long as both sides communicate regularly with regard to procedures. Remember the Manchester incident (1985) where the GMC fire vehicles were delayed because they were at a different RVP than their airport police escort. If I remember rightly, they were at the right place, following a change in procedure, but the police escort had not been advised of this change. I seem to remember that there was also some criticism that the GMC fire service chief could not easily identify the airport fire chief on arrival.

[Capt Homesick]

When I had an engine fire, it went out with the initial actions- despite that, when I had the chance to tell ATC I opted for a Mayday call.. .Maybe it was overkill to have a procession of fire engines following us back onto stand, but I was glad they were there.. .I do not believe the passengers were overly alarmed by seeing firetrucks- as far as I know, every one of them accepted the tickets on our competitor for the next available flight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[crossfeedclosed]

I always thought that "Mayday" meant the aircraft was in immediate danger. I don't accept that an engine failure in a twin fulfils that criterion. Yes, an engine fire that wont go out but a failure with everything under control? I dont think so.

[Pegasus77]

I do think so!. .SOP in my company is that in most cases of loss of redundancy (engine failure, pilot incapacitation, heavy nav-equipment-failure) you should make a mayday-call. No reason to hesitate there, where you simply need help.

[moleslayer]

Just for the record..... . I think so too.

[Capt Homesick]

It's our SOP too- even if it had been up to me, I would have made the Mayday call anyway- the day is going badly enough already, who is to say that all your problems have already happened?

[Guy D'ageradar]

Regarding the international interpretation of Mayday and Pan calls, I can certainly confirm that my colleagues in Switzerland would understand and react accordingly to either one - in fact, I heard my first ever last week - by an AF pilot who insisted on speaking English to a Francophone contoller to avoid misunderstandings. Somewhat better than the UK MIL pilot I once heard declare a "practice Mayday" twice before the checklist or similar heavy object was heard to hit his helmet! . .. .Doesn't go for everywhere though, a few years ago I was sitting behind a young arab twr trainee who patently ignored a somewhat excited countryman who twice stated that he "wished to declare an emergency" before I decided enough was enough and retook control. (a/c was still on 8nm final with an overheating engine but having never heard the likes before, I still would have expected some reaction.). .. .However, I think it is fair to say that in the real world, any of the above would immediately draw the appropriate amount of attention and I for one have no problem with any or all of them being used for that purpose. I would rather have to downgrade an emergency than see the next disaster because someone didn't want to declare anything other than a "technical problem." Surely that is the real issue here.

[Max Angle]

Standard Noise,. .. .Either my message was not clear or you had a bad day before posting. I am on your side squire, get everybody out on alert where they can be of some use should they be required. What your, or my, management might think the next morning, sitting in a nice warm office, feet up, with a cup of tea in hand looking at the event with the benefit of hindsight is irrelevant. The flight crew and the ATCO have to deal with it on the spot and must do what they think is best, thats what we get paid for. . .. .Crossfeedclosed,. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I don't accept that an engine failure in a twin fulfils that criterion </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">.. .. .I think you are dead wrong, in a twinjet you have lost 50% of your power and about 80% of your climb rate, you might only see 500fpm on a heavy a/c (if you do everything right). Depending why the engine has failed ie. severe damage, a whole host of other systems might be about to join the engine in retirement, hydraulics, flight controls. .etc. Once things are sorted out, under control and you have a good idea about other damage etc. and a plan has been made then I would consider downgrading to a PAN but to begin with a MAYDAY is the only correct call in my opinion.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 15:47: Message edited by: Max Angle ]</small>

[Standard Noise]

Max, I wasn't having a bad day and I didn't miss the point of your post. I was merely attempting to answer your query about rules for Atcos when initiating emergency callouts.. .The point I was trying to make, was that we don't work to set rules (ie If an a/c has an engine fire, an Atco will initiate a.....). .Yes, we do have guidelines, but more often than not, common sense and experience have more of a bearing on an Atco's decision. That's why we need the full picture from the pilot, as to the nature of the problem.. .. .Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[Spiraldiver]

For those of you who are now afeared that Pan Pan calls will not be recognised or acted upon outside the UK, I'll offer another destination where it's use is well understood: . .. .Canada.. .. .Swissair 111 used it, and got an instant response. Only trouble was that a mayday call might have been in order instead.. .. .Fly safe.