Couple of questions regarding a JAR PPL

[ShaunLanc]

Ok so i've been interested in flying since a young age and would really like to start my PPL. I've chosen aganist a NPPL because i would like to add ratings to a JAR PPL and maybe one day break into instructing etc.

So my local flying club does it for £6,300. My question is, is this expensive?

I've looked into courses abroad because i know they are cheaper but i really want to avoid it if i can, for a few reasons:

Visa to the US, i've heard stories of them taking it away from you and losing all your money
Not sure i can get 3/4 weeks off work
If i did it at a local flying club, they would know me and upon completion of a Flying instructer course might give me a part time job at the weekends.
Also im not sure if i want to cram all the flying into a short time.

So regarding the UK market, is £6,300 for a JAR PPL expensive, this includes all flying, exams, and books also club membership (I quite like the idea of flying competitions etc)

I've looked around on this forum and i've seen a few people getting it for around £4000. But that could be on the other side of the UK. Im wondering if paying that little bit extra close to home might benefit me because:
I dont have to spend lots of money on petrol travelling
The flying club would know me, i might even get to know someone who knows someone who knows someone that might be able to swing me a job once my hours build up.

In summary, whats the average price for a JAR PPL, would i be paying through the roof for mine? Would it be more beneficial to me personally considering the points listed above?

I've googled JAR PPLs and im just not getting the right info i need, my reason for posting is someone might have already gone through this and know off the top of their head what the answer is. Sorry if i've rambled its my first time posting and if i seem a little naive please dont be too harsh, im new to the industry!
Thanks in advance!

[BackPacker]

So my local flying club does it for £6,300. My question is, is this expensive?

Doesn't seem to be that expensive. Here in NL, the rough number, everything included, is 15.000 euros from zero to PPL. When I did my PPL in the US, it cost me 8.500 euros all-in. I wonder if everything (literally everything) is included in the £6,300, but if so, it looks like a very good deal.

Visa to the US, i've heard stories of them taking it away from you and losing all your money

The visa is issued to you in your name. Nobody except the INS can take it away from you. And they will only do that in case of gross misconduct while in the US, for instance by overstepping the bounds of your visa.

The visa lists the flight school though and if you decide to train elsewhere, you're overstepping the bounds of the visa. Better talk to the INS beforehand if you decide to switch flight schools while in the US. Or better yet, select a decent flight school and do not get into an argument with them that gets heated up to the point that you want to switch.

Oh, and even if your visa gets cancelled for some reason, and you get to go home, then there should be a provision in the contract with the flight school that they pay you back your account balance. If you pay by credit card the credit card company may actually help you get your balance back.

If i did it at a local flying club, they would know me and upon completion of a Flying instructer course might give me a part time job at the weekends.


In order to become a flight instructor you're going to need a CPL and an FI ticket, plus possibly an IR and a whole bunch of experience hours. The 45 hours you train towards your PPL is nothing compared to that. Furthermore, while still training for your PPL there's not a lot of club activities you can join so you really don't get to know many club members except your instructor. So as far as becoming an established and valued member of the club is concerned, it's not going to matter one bit, in the long run, whether you did your PPL at the club, or abroad.

[destinationsky]

thats pretty cheap. my local place charges £7500 + books etc! I did mine in the usa and spent £5k.
good luck!

[Miroku]

Whatever you do don't pay up front!

[joelgarabedian]

Hi Shaun,

The cost quoted is probably for 45 hours' training, and will not include things like landing fees, exam fees, books and other materials. When I started my PPL training I couldn't really find any information on costing either, but I broke it down here a while back...

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/396722-approx-nppl-ppl-costs.html#post5338783

In summary, 45 hours training at my school (South Coast) was advertised for around £6100. There's no guarantee that you'll be ready after that time and you might need to pay for more training, but when I took my skills test with 45 hours and 30 minutes in my logbook, with all the additional costs I'd spent close to £9000.

Money well spent though! :ok:

Miroku is right though, I was naive paying up front, and if I did it again, I'd pay-as-I went.

[XXPLOD]

Sounds on the money to me.

I've known of a couple of students actually buy a group share in a plane, C152, PA28 etc... then just pay the instructor for their time. Could potentially work out cheaper, but not by that much and it's a big step to take especially if you've no experience. Bonus being a ready avenue for continued hour building/ratings etc... at a good price.

[ShaunLanc]

Hi guys, thx alot for your responces, i didnt relise you needed a CPL to begin instructing. I was kind of hoping getting my PPL and then adding ratings to it without getting in £30k-50k debt from a FTO.

At my local club they do, and im quoting from the little booklet i have here " After your PPL training you can learn to fly at night, take your IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) rating, aerabatic training, safety pilot courses, radio navigation, multi-engine ratings.."

I was thinking of doing a few of these and build up my hours. I really really want to avoid the huge debt you get from a FTO, and reading previous threads there seems to be a huge lack of jobs in the industry. At the moment im really confused as you can probably tell. My original plan was to apply to CTC wings and gain my frozen ATPL, little did i know about the reality of the industry and the lack of jobs. So im really..lost at what to do.

I've read threads with people saying the job market might not recover for another 3/4 years so if i was accepted by an FTO now, in 18 months it might still be like this, i'd be where i started but only with a huge debt.

So my second question is this. Is it better to gain all my commerical licenses with an FTO now and then start instructing, or is there a way i can gain my JAR PPL, add other ratings to it, and then apply for a job doing turbo prop work or instructing, or do i need my CPL for that?

Yes i am another "wannabe" however this wannabe has his eyes wide open, so before i make any decisions i want to know as much as i can about the industry and the best way to get into it. If anyone could shed some light on this that would be great. Oh and im 19, 20 this year. I have 3 Alevels at grade C+ and im working full time.

Thanks in advance!

[ShaunLanc]

Oh and regarding paying up front, they said if i pay anything over £1000 for my first deposit i get a 5% discount. Is it worth doing this? Obviously i wont up front the full 6k but a 1k deposit could save me a few hundred pounds. Worth it? The club seems stable enough if that counts for anything.

[kenparry]

Worth it? The club seems stable enough if that counts for anything.

No, it counts for nothing. With any commercial concern, only a few people know the true state of the finances. Firms that go bust, especially smallish ones, usually do so with no prior awareness of problems on the part of their customers.

Certainly do not pay up-front by cash, cheque, or debit card. If you pay by credit card and the club goes bust, you just might have some protection from the card issuer.

[Whopity]

I've known of a couple of students actually buy a group share in a plane, C152, PA28 etc... then just pay the instructor for their time. Could potentially work out cheaper,Could well do, and not be valid for licence issue! All training must be conducted at a Registered Facility who must notify its instructors and aircraft to the CAA! Also the group aircraft may not be insured for training!

Bear in mind, not all flying clubs have to pay extra for landings, that's a point worth checking out. I have never instructed at a club where home landings are charged above the basic price quoted but many clubs are disadvantaged that way.

Paying up front is paying for someone elses PPL! Who is going to pay for yours?
He who buys the cheapest in Aviation usually finishes up with the most expensive!

[IO540]

3.6k sounds very cheap. I paid 8.6k for my PPL in 2000/2001 although I did take more like the average hours of ~ 55 I think.

3.6k could be a half bankrupt school trying to get their hands on some cash. It's very hard to do the 45hrs in the UK, in anything legal, with an instructor etc, for that money - even if landings are free.

So beware, and NEVER PAY UP FRONT. Too many people have lost their money doing that, and anyway it screws you if you get some mad instructor and want to change, or discover some other reason to change schools.

Visa to the US, i've heard stories of them taking it away from you and losing all your money

They can't (unless you assault the immigration officer :) )

Not sure i can get 3/4 weeks off work

That is a problem. You would need ~ 4wks to knock off a JAA PPL in the USA.

If i did it at a local flying club, they would know me and upon completion of a Flying instructer course might give me a part time job at the weekends.

See posts above.

Also im not sure if i want to cram all the flying into a short time.

No reason why not. The problem with doing it in the UK, in between work etc, is that most people take ~ 1 year and on the way they lose a lot of what they learnt.

[youngskywalker]

You can also perhaps learn and absorb more information by doing training over say a year or more. My PPL took me almost two years, mainly because I didnt have enough money to do it quicker. I think that you can learn a lot about flying just by being around a flying school and listening to other peoples experiences (as long as you ingore the resident Bullsh:mad:ter). I personally feal that you would struggle to take in everything over a 3 or 4 week course.

[Lister Noble]

Sounds a good deal to me as long as it is a reputable school.
I took 53 hours at £145/hr plus club membership,books,nav gear,headset,etc.
I paid as I went along per day,booked six lessons a week,took me about 9 months August to May.
I was 63 when I got my licence,being younger you may do it in less hours but then you are only talking a few because you need 45 anyway.
Good luck
Lister:)

[ShaunLanc]

Ok thx alot for your responces guys, very helpful! Looks like i deffinitly wont be paying up front then and pay as i go.

If i may ask another question to the people who have completed a JAR PPL. What did you do next? Personally i would like a career in aviation so what would be the best steps to take after i gain my license?

Maybe add ratings to it as listed above in my second post? Or try and gain my CPL with an FTO?

Thanks in advance!

[BackPacker]

Shaun, if you want to pursue a career in aviation, after your PPL, you are going to need (in no particular order) an IR, CPL, ME, MCC and a type rating (or two). You also need all the theory for your ATPL.

Since most of these licenses/ratings require a fixed number of PIC hours before you start the course, or before you attempt the exam, after the PPL most people start hour building and do an IR, before they go for the CPL.

And what you typically see is that, considering the sheer volume of theory that needs to be mastered for an ATPL, most people start the ATPL theory after their PPL and put the actual flying on a low priority. They need to have finished the ATPL theory anyway before they can do the IR or CPL exam. (Yes, you can do a separate IR or CPL theory course but that overlaps with the ATPL course and is usually a waste of money if you're going to do an ATPL anyway.)

But to be honest, this is the kind of stuff that's better asked in the "wannabies" forum:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/

[Kiev23]

I will be paying upfront for my PPL, there is a great saving to be made and if the flying club I will be flying with goes under then my credit card firm will refund the money :)

[ShaunLanc]

Thx alot guys and thank you so much backpacker, as you can probably tell im really new to this path of aviation. I've always been interested in aviation but since a knock back from the RAF i've decided to try my luck at any flying job i can get.

That post was really helpful even though it was so breif, now i just need to research more. Once again thanks for all your replys, every reply gives me that little bit more information i crave!

Oh and i'll refer to the wannabe section in future!

[IO540]

The problem is that the Flight School sponsored your presence in the US. So if you have a falling out with them or if you decide that you do not like the Flight School, then you are at their mercy and if you chose to cancel your Training, then you would probably have to leave the US within 7 days.A lot of truth in that.

IMHO you won't have to leave the USA (because, practically, you came over on an airline and they run the visa waiver scheme - but hasn't that changed recently??) but you will have a job transferring to another school. So the school has got you over a barrel.

Back in 2005 I set up a route to get the IR at one school in Arizona. They sent the I-20 form (needed for the M1 visa) to the UK instructor who acted as their agent. He was away and the I-20 was never delivered. They should have sent it to me...

Anyway, I ended up with a US Immigration computer record that I started training at that school (which I never even visited) but did not complete.

This resulted in an unpleasant interrogation by some pea-brained Immigration people at Houston last year when I went there on business. Everybody has been totally uninterested in clearing things up, especially the said school who have flatly refused to even give me a letter confirming I never went there.

I did the IR at another school in AZ in 2006. This is on the public record on faa.gov, but US Immigration don't have internet access (they tell me) :ugh: :yuk:

So it is important to get your ducks in a row before applying for the US visa.

[ShaunLanc]

Some interesting stuff there, i would love to go to the US purely for the weather and culture but im still put off of the idea. One i cant get the time off work and two the stories i read on this forum are a real off put. I'd rather take my time and not be screwed over

[BackPacker]

The problem is that the Flight School sponsored your presence in the US. So if you have a falling out with them or if you decide that you do not like the Flight School, then you are at their mercy and if you chose to cancel your Training, then you would probably have to leave the US within 7 days.

The problem is not the above, but the rumour that the FLIGHT SCHOOL is able to CANCEL your VISA. That is patently not true. It's only USCIS that can cancel your visa. And they will probably only do this if you're in breach of the visa regulations or otherwise misbehave in the eyes of the law.

And to be honest, if you stop your flight training for whatever reason, I don't think that leads to an automatic cancellation of your visa and expulsion out of the country. My guess is that you can still stay in the US until your visa expires. You just can't go to another school to do any form of training (not limited to flight training) and you can't get a job, or do any of the other things for which you require a visa. But you could just hang around and play tourist for a while.

Also, if you were to try to change your Flight School it would probably require a trip back to your home country to sort it out and then reapply for TSA Security Clearnace with the new School.

I've heard stories of flight students who did just that: switch schools, and get all the associated paperwork sorted properly, while in the US. Of course it'll cost a day or two and a few hundred dollars, but apparently it is doable without leaving the country.

two the stories i read on this forum are a real off put. I'd rather take my time and not be screwed over

The school I went to (OFT) did almost exactly as promised (get me my PPL in 21 days - in the end it took 22 days because of the weather) for exactly the price they quoted. Of course at some point in time there will be extras but to be fair, all these extras were my own choice, and the price they charged was for these extras was exactly as advertised. So I definitely do not feel screwed over.

And if I were the exception and the majority of students at those schools would be screwed over for real, then you'd find loads and loads more negative comments about those schools on this forum and elsewhere. And that would eventually mean these schools would go out of business. But instead, the major JAA schools in the US (OFT, EFT, OBA, Naples, AAA) have been turning out mostly happy customers for at least five years now. (That's how long I've been following them.) Sure, there's the occasional gripe and complaint but I estimate it happens no more than with any business. And if you read those stories carefully I always get the feeling that part of the blame could be laid on the student as well.

So don't be put off by the stories. Going to the US to obtain your JAA PPL is a fantastic experience and can be considerably cheaper than elsewhere. But you have to be properly prepared (see my sticky thread on this in this forum) and, indeed, you have to be able to take three weeks vacation. Plus some spare days in case things don't go quite as planned.

[IO540]

BP above is right IMHO.

My IR experience in Arizona was entirely positive and went very smoothly. Everything was really well organised - quite unlike what happens here in the UK IME. Their planes flew ~ 700hrs/year and were constantly well maintained, and despite their age everything worked.

And the climate meant one did not waste time. I flew twice a day. Here in the UK on can easily cancel lessons for weeks or months. One Oct-Dec period I booked a lesson a day (i.e. 90 lessons) and got 3 done - mostly due to crap warm front low cloud weather; drizzle etc.

However, I have no experience of the 7 or so schools which offer JAA PPL training (6 in FL, 1 in CA, AFAIK). They would be expected to have their customers over a barrel, due to the monopoly position. But I know of one person with a very positive experience of the one in California.

One can change schools while in the USA and it has been done, but it is likely to waste a few days, and whatever event led to you wanting to change will have wasted a few more days at least. So, go on some personal recommendations.

[ShaunLanc]

Umm again, very interesting stuff! Out of interest how much did you guys spend and what schools did u use? Was it hard to obtain a visa etc?

Edit: I've been reading through your sticky backpacker and it was most helpful. However i've decided to go against going into an intensive course, i can neither get the time off work or pay it all outright. Thanks for the info! :ok: