easy kicked me out !!!

[flyprototype]

I paid line training with them, and yesterday they Kicked me out!

what do I do now with 500 useless hours on their minibus???:{

[MVE]

Obvious Troll.......:ugh:

[Qbix]

You can go to another airline and offer to pay to fly. Or you can become a prostitute though you should know already how to bend over, right?? :D

[axelFR]

you could pay an other airline to do 500 more hours! sounds good to me.
More seriously, what were you expecting? It is a big business, if they made profit out of you, they will make profit out of the guy who took your seat! Not if they would have kept you!

[fly_antonov]

If you were not on a self-employment contract, try consulting with a lawyer.
If you can sue and win, you get your money back and these horrible schemes will have to disappear, so you do all of us a great favour.

What was the reason they fired you?

[ab33t]

Reason is EASY , he had used up his alloted cash . Time for the next paid seat

[Torque Tonight]

Yes, this guy must be trolling, but for the benefit of anyone who might be taking this seriously, here is the pivotal fact:

I paid line training with them

Read it again. 'I paid line [for] line training'. Got that - paid for line training. You got your line training and now the deal's over. Finished. Over. Complete. In accordance with whatever crappy little paid for line training contract you signed. What were you expecting, a bunch of flowers? (I know the answer - you were expecting an employment contract to appear out of nowhere.)

Speculative pay to train schemes are suicidal.
Don't pay for a type rating unless you have a rock solid job at the end of it.
Don't pay for line training at all.
Simples.

[BoeingMEL]

1 He was NOT fired!

2 Fly Antonov.. why is your standard advice on all these issues to sue?
(Do you really think that your expertise in English employment/contract law exceeds that of the lawyers who write easyJet's contracts?)

3 The odd law-suit will not eliminate SSTR and bonding schemes...sorry! bm :ugh:

[fly_antonov]

Bm, yes it makes sense, unless if he had an employee status.

You can' t get line training under a trainee status (must be non revenue) and the self-employed status is not an obvious one to cover.

If he didn' t get fired, his contract must have expired. His contract may have been an illegal one.

Consult with your lawyer. If you had money to spend on line training, you can afford the consult.

[BoeingMEL]

... I'll reply to your points and then walk.

1: Is prototype flyer being honest? Er..I doubt it!

2: Was he directly employed by Easy? Er... almost certainly not.

3: Was he fired? No!

4: Did he have a contract? Maybe a fixed-term contract.

5: Does he have grounds for litigation? Don't make me laugh!

Now, before pushing your argument further, maybe you'd list all of your qualifications and experience in English law... and the airline industry?

:ugh: bm

[rick0]

oh ffs.. is THAT hard to tell that he's a troll/it's a sarcastic post? Someone with severe autism could probabaly tell before you lot.

[fly_antonov]

BM, thank you for your concerns.
Now stop following me, my heart is already taken :ok:

[ford cortina]

The guy is a Idiot, first class. end of.:ok:

[Avenger]

I would suggest everyone ignores this post..look at the post by this guy/girl/muppet yesterday:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah, wanabes worth nothing...after graduation, they feel they have to by rating +line traning.because they suck!

their CPL license worth nothing, just good to pay another 30k and be out of job...
if momy and dady were not here, they wouldn't do their license...they are just lazy.

all these idiots in integrated are just dady & momy sucker who don't want work and want stay at home, saying " booouuuhhhh, nobody want me, I have to pay for 500h, boouuuuh, please dady, give me 30 grant so I can go fly, bouhhhh".


and momy and dady are even more idiots, they give their house to get a loan, knowing their little bastard of called "pilot" will eventually never get a job...

go to uni, get a proper job, and go work!

when there will be a crash in london, who this stupid government is going to blame???? wanabe, airline, CAA, bank, or dady and momy?

All the posts are over the past few days and my guess this is a complete load of BollXX and a wind up, could the mods remove this nonsense! and allow real pilots to participate in balanced debates..this kind of rubbish just devalues the whole site. The " Author" should get back to their homework before their parents catch them playing on the computer

[Ronand]

I would also bet my life, that this guy has never been on the controls of an Airbus, probably not even a car Lol!!! Please just don't reply to nonsense like this

[fly_antonov]

Let' s lay some options for bored, desperate but not cash-limited jobless P2F' s simulated by the thread starter.

It would be interesting if one of them sues just to see if he can get his 50K back. All the rest could follow suit. It could be very interesting to see that happen, just to see how supportive the courts would be.

P2F' s get 50K each back, airlines reimburse a few millions, pay fines. Back to normal life, without P2F.

It' s viable.

[EI-CON]

Fly antonov,

If your so mad to sue why dont you go on a pay to fly scheme yourself and sue them and see what happens instread of telling everyone else what to do.

BoeingMEL I agree!:rolleyes:

Anyways the original post if obviously fake if you read back over the guy/gals previous posts

[ford cortina]

Maybe you could sue the likes of Eaglejet.
Now lets see, you live in the Uk, Eagle jet are in Florida and your training airline is in Morocco (b737 @RAM).
Where do you start?
Do you have any idea how much it costs to get this to court?
Where is your argument? you willingly signed a agreement stating you would get to fly as a FO for a set amount of money.
Have you ever thought about the reality of suing a US company in the US, the cost of mealy instructing a Attorney must be astronomical?
So you get to court, in the US, then what, you had a choice not to do this, therefore you have no right to sue.
If you paid for a service and received it then why would you sue?
I don't think for one second a foreign national would get anywhere.
So sue in Morocco....Good luck you will need it.
I work there, not on P2fly, but for a competitor of RAM's.
Whether or not this thing is illegal, immoral or just plain wrong is debatable, but to even suggest somebody should try to sue is a stupid one. Where are they going to get the money? The airlines could keep it out of court for years and years, until the poor soul is bankrupt.

If you win how do you enforce payment from Eaglejet, he could just go underground for a while. RAM could pay you in Morocco Dirhams, not much use outside of Morocco, not transferable its a closed currency.

If you really are intent on stopping these sorts of schemes then I suggest you start lobbying ICAO, they ultimately are the govening body.:E

[adverse-bump]

hahhahahahahha

it serves you right! enjoy your slow painful trip into financial ruin!

and i know its a cliché, but

I told you so!

[flyprototype]

hi, it's me again!

I am not a troll, but I want be sure my bad experience is a lesson to all of you.I am not ashamed of what happened to me...and please read that as a warning!

I have been "enrolled" in one of these P2F scheme believing I will be hired after my 500h. I paid for type rating + line training (75+ around 500h)
I have never been paid, and now I am out of business with no job...
I looked around for a job, everywhere I go, I find the same deal: P2F.

Yesterday the bank called my mom and dad(been late for payment) and they told me they will take their house If I don't pay them in time.

for 6 months, I had to sleep in my car. I ate **** food, lack of vitamins and sleep...I was like a zombie in the plane. My parents are very worry about me and their house!They have problems to sleep and so do I.

don't prostitute yourself!





I thought I will get a nice job and that the airline will keep me. No, they used me...I am an idiot! After being at FL350, now I am back at FL001...

The CAA don't want recognize my hours, they say it's illegal hours, and to recognize my hours, I must be employed and BE PAID! now it's like if I had only the type rating and 0 hours:yuk:

[ford cortina]

Nah, your a troll, best not to feed you

[flyprototype]

Nah, your a troll, best not to feed you
right, I am a troll...sorry I lied!

I am now fully employed and make megabucks...thank you P2F, you saved my life.It was so easy.
you have to be an idiot not to spend 30K in this training.You just have to pay, fly, and they will HIRE you!
I got experience and now airlines call me,THEY CALL ME!!!I have 500h,and they WANT ME! I have offers to fly the 330 and the 340!
(of course I stay on my minibus, they say there is a pilot shortage and my position is guaranteed!)
india, africa, asia, they all call me...this is fantastic, wonderful!

even my parents can not believe it, it's like wining 20millions at the EU lottery.

thank you so much, thank you P2F, P2F is the solution...

(now who is the troll?if it was easy like that, I would say to everyone to do the same!)

[A10Warthog]

flyprototype: Grow up!!
Find another forum for your childish behavior...

[EpsilonVaz]

Obvious troll because, EZY have never done a P2F scheme where you get 500 hours line training. The maximum was 150, now with the Oxford lads it's 75. If you have 500 hours in EZY you would have been on the flexi crew contract, therefore getting paid. EZY just took back all of last years flexicrew guys.

http://inox.org/demot/TROLLING.jpg

[flyprototype]

flexiscrew contract???, yeah in a "certain way"!

wrong. I have never been paid...the first 500h you fly for free, then you are paid!
what do you think? they have thousand of pilots ready to pay to fly, do you think they pay us like they say.

they told me they don't have to give me hours(it was in my contract, "no guaranteed hours", but they were willing to let me fly for free.If I wanted to fly I had to accept it, or wait forever!
anyway, it's illegal, and I can not credit my hours now...of course, CTC or Oxford won't tell you it.
Now the only "job" I find is P2F...why should I pay again?

[turbine100]

If the CAA told you this, are they looking it operator?

[piky]

Can't believe this half-wit is even getting a response:} Where is the Ban master WWW when ya need him?:ugh:

[G SXTY]

Were you the Tom Cruise lookalike I saw the other day driving into LGW's staff car park in a an MX-5, registration P 2 FLY? (I kid you not).

I think we should be told. :ok:

[EpsilonVaz]

I saw the other day driving into LGW's staff car park in a an MX-5, registration P 2 FLY?

Haha I have also seen that car! I couldn't believe my eyes! :}

[helimutt]

fly antonov
You can' t get line training under a trainee status (must be non revenue) and the self-employed status is not an obvious one to cover.

Eh?

You sure about that little nugget? So what are line training captains for then?

:E

[Tommy Tilt]

Did you ever hear of the British press and the power of the internet?

Notwithstanding, this whole 'pay to fly' con-game is about to come crashing down. There are various threads on this website with regard
to a pilot flying a commercial airliner and not being legally responsible for his or her actions - by virtue of NOT being employed by the respective airline. In order to be employed, you have to be paid!

Until such time as it stops, there will always be some 'more money than sense' wannabe, willing to be taken advantage of.....:ugh:

[jetjockeyusa]

I don't know why some of you guys are trying to be so funny, but going to an Oxford Aviation Training to get your A-Z flying done, paying tons for it while wearing those laughable Air Force Top Gun Elite Universe Space Command Admiral clothes is just as stupid as walking up to an airliner offering to pay for your own type rating.

Aviation these days is so ****** up, mainly because of many people like you guys always offering to fly for lower wages. In fact, there are so many aviation toads these days that would even fly for free because they love it so much.

Well, in my opinion, having flown commercially and now being in the executive aviation, flying for one of the 50 richest people on the planet, airline flying blows, the real future is in executive aviation for the big fish. Nothing better than flying 20 hours a month, earning double of what airliners make and most importantly, not having had to do some retarded OAT or Cadet Program.

[hollingworthp]

Well the thing about flying one of the 50 richest people on the planet is ... there are only 50 of them. This rather limits the number of such jobs.

So congratulations, you have done well - but not everyone is so lucky so a little humility would go a long way.

[Torque Tonight]

Thanks for your input Jambone, but when you grow up you may realise that the situation is not quite as clear cut as it is in your head. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I really don't think a 15 year old with no practical life experience has any credibility commenting on my personal career decisions.

For your information I am a former Royal Air Force frontline pilot. I now work for a very well known low cost airline. It wouldn't be my first choice to pay for a type rating or to be a contractor rather than an employee, but I had to take the employment market as I found it and make the 'grown-up' decision that I considered to be in my best long term interests.

I am now a First Officer, no longer in training. This month I will fly 100 hours minus a few minutes and take home about 7000 Euros. This is a better than average month, but even over the whole year (taking into account all the variables) I will certainly take home about double the salary of an RAF Flight Lieutenant. I will break even on my training in my first year.

My working environment is just fine, thank you very much, I am flying lots of hours (that's a good thing) on an exceptionally good aircraft, have a very good roster pattern, earn good money and have good potential for comand in the future. To summarize that for you, things are good. I do not particularly like the state of the airline industry but you need to realise that life is not as black and white as you think it is when, as a little kid, you start mouthing off at adults. Don't shed any tears for me, and don't call me an idiot. Now go and tidy your room.

[fly_antonov]

7000 euro as take home, good hours as first officer for Ryanair, Easy, Wizz?
I know that Ryanair skippers barely make 7000 euro after tax working 90 hours a month.

Not a chance.

Also, a former RAF jet pilot paying for SSTR?
That must be as low as we can get!

[Torque Tonight]

J and FA, I'm afraid everything I have said is absolutely true. J, it's very easy to take the moral high ground from the comfort of your bedroom in your mum and dad's house. FA, as far as I can recall from your other posts, you are not yet qualified, right? Well, until you actually have to confront the jobs market directly you are somewhat insulated from it's realities, comforted by optimism and noble thoughts of boycotts and suchlike.

I however was in a position where I had to play the cards I had been dealt. Degrade the industry? Not really. I didn't cause the current world recession - I just have to deal with the consequences and take the industry as I found it. The jobs market isn't screwed becaused I paid for a type rating - more the other way round. It is simply supply and demand; the ugly face of free market economy. My type rating had a dead cert job with a successful and stable airline at the other end of it and to be fair people have been paying for type ratings for decades, albeit through bonding agreements.

I left the RAF with a four figure number of flying hours. In the 9 months from civil licence issue to starting my type rating I had one serious interview (with the airline I know work for), an interview with a charitable flying organization which would have required me to raise my own salary by personally approaching people for donations and a tentative offer of a couple of months unpaid bush flying in Africa - great but not a career move. In the meantime I worked in a coffee shop for £5.80 per hour aware that skill fade was setting in, my experience was getting more distant and newer more freshly qualified people were entering the jobs market all the time. So I considered the risk, made an investment in my own future and accepted the airline job offer which would simply have been offered to someone else if I had declined it. I am an adult with a mortgage to pay, a relationship to support and a life to be getting on with. It's all very well holding the moral high ground as your house gets repossessed and you sit in the dole queue becoming increasingly unemployable.

For me things are working out well and the figure I gave is correct (although as I said above the average that I expect). This 'reverse-bonding' (whereby I pay up front for the rating but my costs are returned through a good salary) was the only reasonable choice for me in the cuurent market. I wouldn't touch a private, speculative type rating with a sh1tty stick and as for pay-to-line-train, well, you'd have to be so crazy that you shouldn't hold a medical.

Now if I, as an ex-RAF pilot, had this much trouble in the current jobs market, how do you thing 200hr ab-initios are getting on? Maybe some of you wannabes should consider your own intentions before slinging mud.

ps FA, Captains in my airline do very well indeed, and I never said jets. i flew multi-crew, twin-turbine, heavy helicopters.

[fly_antonov]

Thank you for your well-explained post.

I' m basing my "not a chance" post on what I was told by a friend of mine who works for Ryanair combined with PPJN.
PPJN clearly shows the figures, also for Easyjet.

I don' t know what many people' s point is about me being a PPL. I' m 3 months away from IR-ME-CPL if I feel that it is the moment to jump in. I don' t think that my knowledge about the industry would change much after that experience, I know what it' s like to send out dozens of CV' s and to receive no answers.

I know how bad the industry is and I do know that the SSTR is an unfortunate option for many.

What I and many others are trying to say, is that we don' t like people who come out here and tell everyone that they paid for their TR and act like it was the best decision of their life.
We know that it was your glimpse of sunshine in the endless hurricane but clueless wannabe' s may base their disastrous decisions to enter expensive forms of flight training on the assumption that Ryanair or Easyjet will give them a job at the end of their training.
Also, other airlines may start thinking that if pilots can act like it was the best decision of their lives, they can also start charging for TR.

I mean, if you had to buy a TR out of desperation, at least act with humility, don' t come out here and brag about it.

People who have no mortgages and had saved up prior to entering flight training can afford to wait. They can afford to find a job over a period of 1, 2, 3 and like my instructor did, 7 years. If everyone can afford to wait, then it is only a matter of time for SSTR and unacceptable starting conditions to disappear.

Consider that now is the only shot we get at this. Flight schools, especially the expensive ones, are emptying out. Wannabe' s are starting to receive the messages. There will always be OAA and CTC students ready to open their checkbooks out of desperation for a job.
But now they will be alot less than usual, because they hear the bad news and also because banks are very suspicious.

I see that I can talk to you respectfully because you do reject the P2F schemes which shows that you do have a grain of common sense.

[Torque Tonight]

Thank you FA. I always prefer to have a polite, rational conversation with someone rather than have to deal with the people who just shout insults at each other.

I am certainly not bragging. I was simply reacting to Jambone calling me an idiot. I am also not encouraging wannabes to sign up by suggesting that they will get a job at the end of training. Quite the opposite. My selection was extremely competitive, with a lot of high calibre applicants all able to meet the cost of training. I actually hope wannabes would be discouraged, or at least have a 'reality-check', when they hear that even ex-RAF pilots with over 1000 hrs are finding it very difficult to find work at the moment. So no, I am not bragging, but I'm not going to say 'everything is terrible' just so you guys can feel better about yourselves - my job is great and I'm very happy. I am not ashamed of my decision so I feel no need to act with humility.

This month I am rostered to fly the legal maximum, 100 hours. PPJN's figures aren't always right, and neither is what other people tell you. My current pay rate is 55 Euro/hour. 73 of those hours are being flown from airports other than my official base, which attracts an extra 20E/hr. Work it out yourself. I am also 200hrs away from a pay rise.

I spent many years saving in advance, which is why I have no debt from my CPL/IR training. I have a house that I bought 8 years ago - I am in my thirties so I have no reason to be ashamed of having a mortgage to pay. The fact that I am in my thirties also means that I am not prepared to wait around making lattes and cappucinos for three years in order to make a one man protest about the realities of the aviation industry - doing so may well have meant that I would never fly professionally again.

I made the correct decision for me. The only person that would have sufferred by me refusing the deal would be me. The only people to benefit would be other job applicants who would then have one less competitor. The industry wouldn't give a toss if I withdrew myself from the field, because the Ryanairs of this world are running the most fittest business model for the current economy. Paid type ratings are a harsh reality which are here to stay until the economy changes significantly. All the major airlines have been doing it in one form or another for years already.

Individual boycotts don't work. Even the unions such as BALPA can't fight this. The only thing that will change it is a pilot shortage and that cannot possibly happen until the economy recovers on a massive scale. This is what you have to realise. Zero hour wannabes embarking on training in the last year have been throwing their money away and stand almost no chance of employment paid or otherwise. Tough times.

[ei-flyer]

After being at FL350, now I am back at FL001...

Wow, you got a job cropspraying?!

Unappreciative sod...

[Torque Tonight]

Apology accepted with thanks Jambone.

I know you weren't specifically referring to me but you did say:

It drives me crazy that there are so many IDIOTS out there who toss £30,000 at a TR so they can fly in an awful environment, for crap pay..AND ruin the industry. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif idiots.

I paid for my TR, so I'm sure you understand my reaction. As I said, I hope my case will be a reality check to wannabes. I consider myself very lucky, but my luck was also built on over 1000 hours of military flying experience and £30k for a rating. Anyone with 200 hours or less who feels lucky at the moment is deluded.

I applied for EVERYTHING going. I couldn't even get a gig as the tug pilot at a nearby gliding club because they had about 30 people on the waiting list. Those guys work seven days a week through the summer, live in a tent and don't get paid. This is the reality of trying to be a professional pilot at the moment. Still feel lucky?

[Airbusfreak]

TT excellent points. Fly anotov read and learn. It makes me laugh that your on here trying to give advice to "wannabes" and you only have a ppl and stated "I don't think that my knowledge about the industry would change after that experience" about cpl meir. Do you actually think that by waiting for tbe "right time" and slagging off all the guys who pay for their type rating is gonna get you a job. Take a reality check...

Also this forum is for commercial pilots looking for work. I suggest you post your own opinions in the private pilots forum. Then when you do become a qualified commercial pilot and your looking for a job come back in here. :)

[Caasper]

Firstly hello to all, this is my first ever post on PPrune and so I will attempt to keep it light and ask a few questions that hopefully some of you more experienced PPruner's can answer for me.

First point:

When I read the initial post starting this thread I thought here is another guy (I know it could be a girl) down on his luck and looking for a little bit of help, and nothing has actually been offered so I thought I would give some potential help.

I have a good friend who after completing his flying training bought himself an Airbus rating, but unfortunately he didn't find a job - straight away that is, because nearly 2 years later he finally found a job with Wizz Air, and last time I spoke to him they were still recruiting. I don't know the details of what is on offer, but a quick look on their website shows available position for airbus rated FO's so maybe it is worth a shoot???

Second point:

This long debate about P2F and the purchasing of type ratings when you are newly qualified in aviation is very complex and I just want to add a few comments/ viewpoints to it.

Firstly I would like to know if the annual applicants for a CPL - IR or Frozen ATPL's at say the CAA has gone up or down over the last 10 years, because if the training industry is producing more and more new pilots (and more than the market needs), then maybe someone should start putting restrictions on the training academies. If you need a certain grade level to apply for say a medical uni degree, then why should you be able to start your flying training with out any restrictions other than your payments clearing at the school?

As far as I'm am aware only FTE requires any applicants to pass an aptitude test before being offered a spot on their course, but maybe you can all correct me on this?

Further to this point I would like to ask what the general view is on being out of a job with £80.000 in training debt vs. unemployment with £110.000 debt?

I know that my view is that if what it takes to get employment at the end of my training is a further investment, then I might as well as if I'm going to go bankrupt then the last £30.000 isn't going to change much!

My view on these unfortunate pilots who end up in a p2f situation (which I nearly did myself) is that it is of no use to spend time slagging them off for making a brave choice and possible the only one other than calling it a day!

but what should then be done? Well I believe that a possible solution is only going be achieved through an industry wide pressure being put on the governing bodies (in the EU it is/will be EASA) by the international pilot communities. The decision to allow these P2F schemes are made either by national governments or national authorities such as the CAA, and these are the people who can put a stop to this exploitation of desperate pilots.

Pilot organizations such as BALPA are already fighting many battles internationally to prevent reductions in things such as Flight Time Limitations
and they already have communication channels to the powers at be, so I would hazard a guess and say that its through these organizations this battle must be fought, but it must be fought on two fronts. 1. restrict the number of newly qualified pilots by regulating the training organizations entry process
and 2. industry wide international political pressure for the removal of the P2F schemes with some well thought out arguments, that at current I don't have!

Well so much for keeping it light, anyway looking forward to the responses to this first ever post!

until then SAFE FLYING!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Torque Tonight - excellent track, one of my favourites.

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