Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks

[SMOC]

The Standard

Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks

Staff Reporter

Wednesday, February 10, 2010

Cathay Pacific's local pilots are to boycott the Lunar New Year parade and other promotional activities by the airline in protest at what they claim is "unequal treatment."
Housing allowances for pilots are exclusive to expatriates regardless of whether they are Hong Kong permanent residents or not.

According to The Standard's sister newspaper Singtao Daily, housing allowances account for around 40 percent of the total income of expatriate pilots.

This means that while an expatriate can earn up to HK$110,000 a month, their local colleagues only get around HK$60,000.

Education subsidies are another area of complaint. This benefit is offered to all expatriates, but only to senior local pilots.

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According to a source, who asked not to be named, the request by 300 local pilots for equal treatment has fallen on deaf ears.

"Cathay Pacific Airways keeps claiming Hong Kong is its home, but the claim is not in line with its employment policy," the source said.

The decision to boycott Sunday's Lunar New Year parade is backed by the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association, which represents locals and expatriates.

Cathay Pacific Airways has around 2,400 pilots, of whom 12 percent are local Chinese. The union represents around 70 percent of all pilots hired by the airline.

The group has also sought help from three legislators to determine whether the airline is in breach of racial discrimination laws or regulations.

It is also threatening to take the case to the Equal Opportunities Commission.

Cathay expressed disappointment at the boycott. The airline also rebutted allegations of racial discrimination, saying the company treats its employees equally regardless of nationality or race.

It said the offer of some fringe benefits was intended to attract pilots from overseas to fill vacancies which could not be filled by the local labor market.

"It would be unfair for local pilots to ask for the same housing allowances as those hired from overseas," an airline spokesperson said.

Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks - The Standard (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=11&art_id=94362&sid=27014683&con_type=1)

[SMOC]

Cathay Pacific response to locally employed pilots’ claim
9 February 2010



In response to a media enquiry about the non-participation of locally employed pilots at the Chinese New Year Parade, a Cathay Pacific spokesman said:

“It is very disappointing that the local pilots will not join the Chinese New Year Parade. The parade brings enjoyment to hundreds of thousands of people and our staff have always been keen to take part in it. Local pilots have been strong supporters of community activities for 20 years, and it will be disappointing to the many members of the community who benefit from their participation if they express their grievances by withdrawing from them.”

Below is background information on Cathay Pacific’s pilot employment policy and the Cadet Pilot Scheme for reference.

Employment Policy

Cathay Pacific is a fair employer in strict compliance with anti-discrimination regulations. Pilots are recruited into Hong Kong as locally employed or expatriate pilots on the basis of their experience. All locally employed pilots are treated exactly the same as expatriate pilots in terms of career progression and promotion opportunities. They also enjoy the same salary and benefits as expatriate pilots in Hong Kong including pension fund payments, medical care, education allowances for children attending international schools and kindergartens in Hong Kong, staff travel etc.

The only major differences are that locally employed pilots are not entitled to an expatriate housing allowance in Hong Kong and their children’s education allowances are exclusive of boarding schools overseas, as they are locally employed. However, all locally employed Captains receive a special cash allowance of HK$24,000 per month which can be used to offset rental or mortgage payments.

We recruit overseas for talents and skills that are not readily available in Hong Kong. It is well-established industry practice in Hong Kong to recruit expertise from overseas to fill talent gaps.

The goal of the airline is to increase the number of locally employed pilots - both on Bases overseas and in Hong Kong. Through the Cadet Pilot Scheme, we have made a huge investment over the past two decades in training young people who may otherwise not have had the opportunity to become pilots and to develop local talent in Hong Kong.

The suggestion of the pilots’ union to pay full expatriate housing allowance to locally employed pilots does not make sense. In effect, it would obviate the need for the Cadet Pilot Scheme when the airline could go out to the international pilots’ market for experienced professionals. We have thousands of applications from all over the world for pilot positions at Cathay Pacific.

Competitive Remuneration

Remuneration packages for Cathay Pacific’s locally employed pilots in Hong Kong are very competitive. For example, a locally employed Captain with 2 children in an international school will receive a total package per annum, including pension fund contribution, in the region of more than HK$1.8 million to HK$2.5 million depending on the pay scale, number of hours flown during the year and the age of the children.

The Cadet Pilot Scheme

Cathay Pacific launched the Cadet Pilot Scheme in 1988 to provide people in Hong Kong with the unprecedented training opportunity to become a pilot with one of the best airlines in the world.

The initiative is in line with the airline’s goal of increasing the number of locally employed pilots – both on Bases overseas and in Hong Kong – and reducing our dependence on expatriate pilots in the longer term.

Cathay Pacific has made a huge investment in training young people who may otherwise not have had the opportunity to become pilots. As of January 2010, more than 300 graduates from the Cadet Pilot Scheme have joined the airline as locally employed Second Officers.

Upon graduation from a 14-month training course at Flight Training Adelaide (FTA), the cadet pilots will join the airline as Second Officers in Hong Kong on local terms. Cathay Pacific takes up all training costs, estimated at about HK$1 million for each cadet pilot. Such training in other countries is invariably paid for by the trainees themselves.

The Cadet Pilots Scheme has been a huge success since its launch more than 20 years ago. We have received some thousands of applications from young people for the much coveted career development opportunity in Hong Kong.

In recent years, Cathay Pacific has further enhanced the training programme to double the number of Cadet Pilots under training at Flight Training Adelaide from approximately 30 to 60 per year. This is in anticipation of a shortage in supply of experienced pilots in the longer term.

To broaden the prospective talent pool, we also lifted the requirement for a cadet applicant to be a HKID card holder in June 2009. In other words, the scheme is now open to all applicants worldwide as long as they are willing to make Hong Kong their home. Since that time the airline has recruited 39 applicants for the Cadet Scheme of which 13 are Hong Kong Chinese by nationality, indicating the difficulties in hiring qualified candidates among HKID cardholders.


Cathay Pacific response to locally employed pilots? claim (http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/aboutus/pressroomdetails?refID=be10e5359f1b6210VgnVCM62000007d21c39_ ___)

[christn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that those based in their own countries do not receive housing or education allowances!

[CXChildLabour]

yes you are correct and quite a valid point actually... However, a lot of the CEP were actually born or brought up elsewhere. The only reason why they're on local terms is because they have HK residency. NOT because they joined through the cadet program as there are couple "direct entry" pilots who were basically told by the company that they're considered local because of their HK ID card.

Expats chose to base in HKG and are getting housing and education allowance as compensation because they're not in their own countries, which I don't think ANYONE (including the CEP's) would object is a fair deal. So logic would indicate if an CEP who chooses to be based anywhere outside HKG should be getting housing and education allowance as compensation as well because in that case they would be out of their own country (HKG). I bet you all bases will be filled up within seconds.

With international cadets just around the corner, we're gonna start seeing non-HK ID holder signing onto local contracts. The fact that Mr. Rhodes has been constantly probing the question of "how long does one take to become a local", I really wonder what he got up his sleeves for the next COS.

[christn]

I assume that those now complaining knew what they would or would not be entitled to when they signed their contract?

[CXChildLabour]

actually, if this surprises you, no. I know at least two (one resigned already) who signed as a DIRECT ENTRY pilot and was unilaterally changed to a local contract by the company once they found out about their HK residency.

[CXChildLabour]

given the track record of this company, don't be surprised if one day u realize ur contract has been unilaterally changed to local term once they establish the benchmark for them to use as "localization" for expats.

[SMOC]

Yes christn, and A scale is now B scale, do you not see the writing on the wall the company is already suggesting "when does an expat become a local" :ugh: or are you against certain groups fighting for better conditions?

[Dragon69]

So logic would indicate if an CEP who chooses to be based anywhere outside HKG should be getting housing and education allowance as compensation as well because in that case they would be out of their own country (HKG).

What kind of stupid logic is that???? Maybe you meant to say an CEP can choose to work for Emirates or Etihad and get housing allowance.

The headquarters for Cathay is Hong Kong. All flights originate and terminate in Hong Kong. Bases were opened to send expats back to their home country and save on housing allowances, where is the logic in sending CEPs to bases and paying them housing allowance??? I don't get it!



As much as I hate management I have to agree with this statement

The suggestion of the pilots’ union to pay full expatriate housing allowance to locally employed pilots does not make sense. In effect, it would obviate the need for the Cadet Pilot Scheme when the airline could go out to the international pilots’ market for experienced professionals.

For those locals that joined CX with experience from abroad, but were given local terms because of their HK ID card, I completely agree, they should be getting expat benefits.

Do what Emirates does and pay the LEPs a higher salary to balance out the overall package. But don't fixate on the housing allowance.

[CokeZero]

Cathay expressed disappointment at the boycott. The airline also rebutted allegations of racial discrimination, saying the company treats its employees equally regardless of nationality or race.

They get away with as much as they can because the few that are discriminated against are a small number that would find it hard to mount a legal challenge to them. Even if they win, appeal, win again. It takes 10+ years to get anywhere with this company.

Cathay does discriminate, on nationality, race, sex and gender!!! Ask around and you'll find it all.

With on-shoring that is happening around the world with Cathay at the moment - there are going to be a few more court appearences for the managemnet in the very near future.

Not as bad as the middle east carriers but pretty damn close!!!

In flying we have a term called Airmanship. All pilots try to achieve this, management has nothing like this. Says something...

[Flying Bagel]

Some locals in many other sectors in HK, and yes even in Cathay, do have the benefit of a housing allowance. It just depends on where you draw the line.

I don't understand how some fail to see the logic of a group fighting for better conditions which may have a beneficial edge for the rest in the long run. This whole "you know what you got when you signed on the dotted line" ideaology is fatalistic. If that is what you believe, please don't bother with thinking about payrises or improved conditions.

Because you should have known when you joined.

[TGIG]

So if a pilot's nationality happens to be the same as the company's main base of operations, its ok to forgo in his/hers entire career the lucrative housing allowance no matter where he/she goes, and thus earn remarkably less. That would be discrimination.... if it happened in most Western countries!

[Steve the Pirate]

Here we go again, down a path of one group versus another within our pilot body. The only difference this time is that it's in public. Great PR - will we ever learn?

STP

[tyson744]

I think the important point to note here is the ‘talent gap’. Without expat pilots and other expat roles that are filled at all levels in Cx there would be no airline. If I stayed in Australia working for Qantas (previous employer) I would not get the benefits discussed here. I made a choice, to leave my country and work overseas. LEP Cadets made a choice to stay in their own country and have their flying paid for. I paid for my lessons and took my licence to Hong Kong. Cadets are not bonded to Cx so they can make the same choice my family and I have made and leave their home and go overseas for more money. It’s quite simple really. If Cx were to scrap the housing allowance, for example, it is quite clear that most if not all expatriate pilots would have to leave Hong Kong and possibly Cathay Pacific as we simply could not afford to live in Hong Kong. Facts are , Cadets had their flying paid for (not mowing lawns or working in dingy bars to pay for lessons), had job security from day one, and have never been out of work. If they want more money they should be prepared to take risks and go looking for employment overseas.

[Mullah Lite]

Um...

How is it that if housing were to be scrapped, that expats wouldn't be able to afford living in hong kong, but locals can....and do.....just.

Sounds like advocating lesser living for people who work beside us, living in the same place and doing the same job.

Same base same place same case.

btw everyone look out because although the company's hinted, for a while already, at reinventing the term 'expat' if you have permanent residency, I haven't seen it put to print until now....a step up in action if I ever saw one.

[Dragon69]

I don't understand how some fail to see the logic of a group fighting for better conditions which may have a beneficial edge for the rest in the long run. This whole "you know what you got when you signed on the dotted line" ideaology is fatalistic. If that is what you believe, please don't bother with thinking about payrises or improved conditions. This is not about fighting for better conditions, it is about envy! He's getting the housing allowance and I am not! What if Cathay is judged to be discriminating, their solution, pay everyone in HKG a fixed housing allowance of $15,000. Would you be happy then??? Everything comes at a cost!

[Mullah Lite]

CX would never shoot themselves blatantly in the foot like that by diminshing current housing allowance in one fell swoop...their methods are a lot more insidious, and already happening.

The press release they put out: "The initiative is in line with the airline’s goal of increasing the number of locally employed pilots – both on Bases overseas and in Hong Kong – and reducing our dependence on expatriate pilots in the longer term."

Never thought that they would admit it in black and white though....can't say I saw that coming.

Having opened up the cadet program to everyone and not just HKID card holders, how long before expat terms become a thing of the past?

Or is it alright to let it slide, just as long as it doesn't happen to me....who cares about the fellas who rock up to the door in 15 years time eh?

[Dragon69]

Mullah Lite,

You obviously have not bothered to apply to another carrier that offers expat packages, because you are quite content with your package and must have a strong connection to Hong Kong. Let Cathay take away the housing allowance and watch the mass exodus of expats out of HKG.

Same base same place same case.


Not exactly! Same argument can be made about A scale B scale then!

[Mullah Lite]

69 er

I completely agree with you on the mass exodus point, I was just saying that the company would try to avoid making an obvious move to prevent that from happening. They won't take away the housing from the current contract because it would result in a brain drain, like you said, but it isn't stopping them from reinventing the game for newcomers.

Re: your point about A vs. B......but I've never made a case against B scalers fighting for an A scale package, I have always believed it's their right to fight for better conditions. Wouldn't you?

[TGIG]

I can't think of one local who would actually want expat benefits to decrease, whereas you seem quite happy with the status quo; you getting the benefits and us getting nothing.

[Dragon69]

Sorry but fighting for better conditions and fighting for what he has and I don't are two very different fights. I will never complain that I am doing the same job as an A scaler and getting paid as a B scaler, even after 15years, because it is what I signed up for. Anyway we can go at it back and forth all day long, as I've said in my post above, lets improve the package by maybe paying a higher salary for LEPs, but the fight shouldn't be about he is getting the housing allowance and I am not! Good luck!

TGIG

Where does it end then?? Next will be based pilots complaining that they are not receiving expat benefits!!!So what is it that you are after, expat benefits to those in Hong Kong only??? If so, then I can use your statement against you.

[Mullah Lite]

I fail to see the distinction in fighting for better conditions and fighting for the same conditions as your peers but it's fair to agree to disagree. I do prefer civilised debate to the back and forths as you rightfully mentioned.

[yokebearer]

More for everybody I say - we all want something. If the local guys can get any sort of increase on their contract - good on them - and the same goes for all.

Why would any of us care when CX pays more money to any of our flying colleaugues except to be happy for them??

Debating the pro's and cons of this is pointless. If you were local but you grew up in OZ and you cant even read and write Chinese would you not like to send your kids to a decent intl school and live in a decent space - the way you grew up??

Sure sure its not the contract you signed - but I signed '99 and I want my bypass and I want 65 too - so we all want something.

[Steve the Pirate]

There's clearly nothing wrong with striving for better conditions but what does boycotting the LNY parade achieve? Most of the public think that we're petulant, overpaid bus drivers anyway (thanks to RE) and I'm not altogether sure that this latest campaign will do anything to change their minds. Please correct me if I'm not reading this the right way.

STP

[TGIG]

Dragon69, Why does asking for/wanting better conditions have to end? Do you expect Management to benevolently increase your conditions without you asking for it? Do you think Management will 'end' their drive to continuity reduce our package whenever there is an opportunity?

I would be happy if I had to opportunity to get housing benefits if I moved to a base, but then I remember from your previous post that it would be illogical for a Hong Kong based airline to give housing benefits to a Hong Kong based pilot based overseas. I also replied that would be discrimination because he/she would earn substantially less purely because of his/hers nationality.

Just to preempt a possible rebuttal about the lack of commercial necessity for a local to move to an outport vs an expat coming to work in Hong Kong, what about Direct Entry F/Os? They have the choice to move to Hong Kong and get full housing after 2/3+ years of service. However, they were hired to work in their home base, like me, and thus there is no commercial need for them to leave their home base. So why is it when they choose to come to HKD they can have full housing whereas if I choose to come to SYD I'm still a local? Food for thought perhaps.

[Sqwak7700]

The reason why this request from LEPs angers many expats is that all expats pilots have made a big sacrifice to move their family away from their home country. In order to entice expats to do this, the company has to make it worth their inconvenience. That is why they offer expat benefits. It is the reward for the sacrifice.

If you are a local pilot then you have not made the same sacrifice. If you feel that you are underpaid, then by all means, you should argue and demand higher pay. But that is very different from expat benefits and the two should not be confused. If you want expat benefits, you can get them from many carriers that are currently hiring in the middle-east and India.

[iamconfused]

The reason why this request from LEPs angers many expats is that all expats pilots have made a big sacrifice to move their family away from their home country. In order to entice expats to do this, the company has to make it worth their inconvenience. That is why they offer expat benefits. It is the reward for the sacrifice.

just wondering, suppose one day the company decides to give all the locals some form of allowance (what it's called doesn't matter), and all the expat benefits stay the same, would that make the expats angry and feel less rewarded for their sacrifices even though there is absolutely no change to their overall package?

what about the other way around, suppose the company decides to double the expat housing allowance from its current level, on top of inflation and everything. if it comes to a vote in the AOA, do you think the locals would vote it down?

[Kelvs]

Sqwak, I do hope that what the LEPs are doing is not angering the many expats that you were referring to. It does seem that there are always the same and select few on PPrune who are intolerant of those who are merely trying to better their terms of employment. What the LEPs are doing in no way affects the package of the expats and it's beyond my belief that some of you can get so worked up over an issue that bears no consequence to you. I for one will always be supportive of my colleagues regardless of their CoS, package or base when and if a situation arises where they may have the chance to improve their terms.

[cyrex]

STP

whats wrong with the locals not attending the LNY parade? I am sure its not in their contracts stating they have to attend. I am sure they dont want to give up their g day anyways just so they can walk around tst in uniform. If you care so much, why dont you call up crew control and see if you can volunteer for it instead. :rolleyes:

[Dragon69]

it's beyond my belief that some of you can get so worked up over an issue that bears no consequence to you.

Actually that is completely false. If the discrimination argument is proved to be correct in court, do you think Cathay will go for the highest common denominator or the lowest common denominator?? This could have serious implications to all, and not only limited to flight crew, but also to many Japanese, Taiwanese, Koren, Thai, etc, cabin crew as the local cabin crew can make the same claim.

[climbout]

DIVIDE AND CONQUER! The company know how to use that "tool"! -
We have to stand all TOGETHER to avoid a further deterioration of our COS - for the whole pilot group!

[christn]

The problem is that we are failing to hang on to our existing conditions. With a limited (if management have their way, reducing) pot of cash available, an improvement to one group has to be has to be balanced by reductions elsewhere. There may be little sympathy for what could be considered an unreasonable demand!

[CXChildLabour]

Well, if you think if the CEP getting any sort of COS improvement would mean a reduction in your own benefit then I have this to say to you mate. "If that happens, you can always go to the middle east and get your housing allowance over there", just like you suggested for the CEP to do. In fact, you have left your own country already so what's the big deal if you move again, right??? If you still choose to stay in HKG because it's a better place to live in then that is "YOUR CHOICE", so you can't really complain if they do reduce your benefit for someone else's improvement and still stay here, you had a choice.

And please, don't tell me you don't consider the housing allowance as part of your salary/pay/take-home-money or whatever you call it. At the end of the day, you're gonna pocket that money and we all know it's just an accounting exercise. IF the housing allownace is allowed to be used for RENT ONLY, just like most of the middle eastern airliners, then I can see how you can argue that the locals shouldn't get it cause it's not actual going into the your pocket. However, in CX's case, that lump sum IS eventually going into your pocket, so quit that "oh it's an allowance to compensate us" crap, IT IS PART OF YOUR TAKE HOME SALARY SMARTIE PANTS!!!!

If you think the CEP's didn't sacrifice ANYTHING to work for CX, you're probably the most naive person I've ever seen working for this company (even though there are probably more than I realize). Open up your tiny little eyes and look around, see how many CEP's actually left their home country and families behind to work for CX in HKG. There are CEP's commuting long distances and paying two mortgages half way around the world, sometimes paying full fare tickets during peak season because we don't get that priority 4 get-u-home FOC ticket. Countless of them actually don't even speak/read a word of chinese, the only thing that link them to HKG is their ID card. I'm pretty sure a lot of the so-called "expats" own as well after living here for years, and some even plan to call this their permanent home till death, so why aren't they considered "local"?

Sure the company invested a HUGE amount of money in the cadet programme but how many years of housing allowance does the training cost actually equals to? 3 years? 6 years? 10 years? 30 years? you tell me. The CEP's aren't even asking for housing allowance from day 1, we acknowledge the fact that the company MUST recover the training cost they provided. But at what point should the CEP be considered by ANYONE that they're actually just as experienced and capable as the next guy down the senority list? At the moment, they don't even get that recognition when they retire. And I ain't even talking about the "Same job same pay" BS, what I'm talking is the fact that a CEP A-scale CN is actually getting less than a B-scale FO while the company expects the lower paid guy to save everyone's @ss when **** hits the fan. Many CEPs have actually became captain, senior captains, or even T&C already. Are you telling me that their experience and skills is far less than the FO/SO sitting next to them? Why the heck is he training or even checking the guy sitting in the right seat then if that's the case?

I still remember all those whinning and crying foul w/ RA65 and COS08 couple months back, complaining about command time getting delayed for couple years or bypass pay getting waived or whatever. Mate, try getting screwed for 30+ years then you can talk to us again.

[CXChildLabour]

There's clearly nothing wrong with striving for better conditions but what does boycotting the LNY parade achieve? Most of the public think that we're petulant, overpaid bus drivers anyway (thanks to RE) and I'm not altogether sure that this latest campaign will do anything to change their minds. Please correct me if I'm not reading this the right way.

STP


I heard CSD is still looking for poster boys for the parade, maybe those who disagree with CEP's action should give CSD a call, kinda show support to the company that you believe what they're doing is right, u know. *Message Edited*



Note: In true CX fashion, edited the message for inappropriate comment even after it went public. := But at least I'm willing to admit it in black and white and would like to appologize to those who I have offened originally.

[Dragon69]

CXChildLabour...thank you for proving my point, in the end it is all about envy!!!!!!! So cut the crap with this notion of fighting for better conditions.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[christn]

I have merely made 'devil's advocate' comments in order to encourage discussion.

Since you do not know me you no nothing about my terms,conditions and allowances - you might be surprised!

Also, I am not your mate!

[Mullah Lite]

Envy would imply an element of animosity towards a person who has more, with a degree of pleasure taken in seeing that same person being brought down a peg or two, a feeling which I personally don't have towards anyone here no matter what their background. By the same token, I don't think envy would correctly describe the attitude that CEPs have towards their expat counterparts. It's not about getting more just because the next guy has it, it's about getting what should be and is common value. Unless of course, you think a CEP is beneath the worth of that common value and deserves less?

[CXChildLabour]

CXChildLabour...thank you for proving my point, in the end it is all about envy!!!!!!! So cut the crap with this notion of fighting for better conditions.....

69er, which part of my post proved your point may I ask? The part that I said "You can go to middle east" just like the CEP's have been told? Or the part that I pointed out the "housing allowance" is actually part of the take-home salary and in turn proved that it's essentially a pay discrimination? Or was it the question about how long the training cost would be recovered in full by the company and thus CEP is screwed for the remaining 30+ years of their career? Or maybe it was the part that I pointed out some "expats" secretly defected and became a "local" deep in their heart but just refuse to admit it? Call me stupid but please enlighten me with your brilliant mind how that "IT'S ALL ABOUT ENVY".

Oh wait, maybe I AM. I AM ENVY of the fact that you guys bitched and whined about ur 3.4% SLS paycut compared to my 7%. I AM ENVY of the fact that you could get paid more than your trainer/checker. I AM ENVY of the fact that you could try your best to prevent improvement for a minority part of the pilot body just in case it MIGHT affect you no matter how slim that chance is. And I MOST OF ALL AM ENVY of the fact that you can be the worst CAT D FO in the company and still say "ah so what, I still make loads of cash" while CEP's have to live like bums even when we make it all the way. Nah, it's not about fighting for better conditions or equality for the same job we do, IT IS ALL ABOUT ENVY.

[CXChildLabour]

I have merely made 'devil's advocate' comments in order to encourage discussion.

Since you do not know me you no nothing about my terms,conditions and allowances - you might be surprised!

Also, I am not your mate!


well, I suppose you do know me so you know EVERYTHING about my terms, conditions and allownaces - AND NOT SURPRISED, and thus have all the reasons to object my rights to improve my conditions without improving yours.

And I'm sorry to call you mate, mate... I mean dude.....

[Hkgdriver]

I understand why you feel hard done by , time has a funny way of changing your views.
You were given a fantastic opportunity to start flying with a guaranteed employment contract if you pass the course. The sting was to bypass all the normal experience requirements you had to be a permanent ID card holder ( things have changed a bit but you know what the quid pro was) and be employed without ANY expatriate benefits???
now your crying that it is not fair.............. well mix in some noise about direct entry pilots being suddenly being told no expat benefits and the drums are beating?? sorry I smell bullsh?t
We have some major changes coming and I congratulate the LEP's for going for a contract change just do not ask me to support it at the detriment of my contract which is how it looks to me?

[KABOY]

You graduate from University, employment prospects are OK. But you see the CPP, the money after graduating and completing your sim training is double what your peers from University are earning, and the biggest bonus is you have over $1,000,000 invested in you by your employer!!! You say screw the housing, child education, where do I sign.

After 8 years your university peers are still playing catchup, but you no longer look at them as your equivalent, you look at the expatriates now. They earn housing, they get child education, why can't I?

Well there is a thing called a contract, unfortunately it doesn't allow for this. You get angry and call the press, they are discriminating against us!!!!!! Your employer digs their heels in, status quo is maintained.

What next? Well maybe like every other expatriate who didn't like their last contract, they packed up and went in search of the golden goose. Some found it in the middle east, others found it in the far east. To all the locals who don't like their contract, go look for a golden goose!!!!:ugh:

[Humber10]

Do any other local staff in CX or swire (management?) receive housing? If so, housing should be paid to the CEPs

[CXChildLabour]

And in case some of you might wanna know, all of this would NOT affect me at all as HKG is not in my long term plans. I'm merely speaking out of support for the minority group and wish they could ultimately get treated fairly and equally.

[quadspeed]

Just so it's absolutely clear;

If LEPs are awarded expat housing levels, it follows that based crews will be entitled as well. Rental prices in central London and New York don't differentiate much from Hong Kong. Cathay knows this, and so does the AOA.

This one's gonna get messy.

[tiger321]

CXchild,

I am actually all for CEP's getting a housing allowance but with the attitude you displayed in your previous post you are not doing yourself or your cause any favours.

Attacking the other pilot groups is not the way to go about this.

I have flown with many "expat" CEP's and agree that they should be entitled to a housing allowance at some point. That point used to be on achieving Command but now that RA65 has put that back I think it is reasonable to link it to years of service. Maybe we could average out the total years of service it has taken CEP's to attain command and use that point as the qualification point.

[CXChildLabour]

We have some major changes coming and I congratulate the LEP's for going for a contract change just do not ask me to support it at the detriment of my contract which is how it looks to me?

So much for all that pilot body must unite talk. Don't look at the CEP's if CX's divide and conquer tactics work, look at guys like this one instead. The CEP's have been bad mouthed for way too long, it's time to stand up and fight back against all these wrong accusations. We were weak and small in numbers before but time has changed, with the way CX is hiring, don't be surprised if CEP becomes a majority of the pilot body. How would you feel if you're told that "you know what you signed up for so stop asking for improvement/payrise ever again, go elsewhere"

[Mullah Lite]

It's been messy for a long time already.

Guys, CEPs are not asking anyone to support something in detriment to their own T&Cs. The CEPs are not asking any expats to lift a finger for this fight.....honestly, given the track record of that relationship, CEPs would be fools to expect it. What I think is a travesty though, is hearing even a minor few wanting to keep the next guy beneath them, because what.....they didn't have to go through the exact same interview process? Alright, try doing a 5 stage interview process followed by a 14 month CX review and see how well you all come out of that one....complete a full HKCAD dinosaur ATPL in 8 weeks, then a jet sim loft check in a generic 737 after 2 wholly fruitful weeks of tuition. By the way, no guarantee of employment either at the end of it all which is a common myth. Oh, forgot about having to be to the same standard as the next guy for checks. Silly me, where's my head. And starting out Cat C S/O not Cat B, thereby having to wait a whole 'nother year for upgrade. Tell that to the GFS cadet guy with more blade time than most of us have spent holding a knife over every meal we've had our entire lives, BBQs not included.

But entry standards aside, if those of you who truly do have consequential concerns with locals fighting for a better contract, lodge your complaints with the AOA....or hell, step up to the plate and support the company's stance on the issue to protect yourself. That is the ultimate goal right? To protect yourself?

Tiger321, voice of reason, thank you. Though the CEPs are advocating the same idea based upon the recouping of finances and some interest gained from years of total service regardless of rank.

[christn]

I suspect most of us have current terms/conditions/allowances/prospects a lot worse than we signed for!

[Mullah Lite]

quadspeed

Good point, that concern was brought up and the angle of the CEPs argument is that of base parity, i.e. people who serve in SFO get SFO package, MEL get MEL package, HKG get HKG package. Across the board, parity on base.

I will get whatever that base has to offer when I get out of HKG (if there are any basing slots left in future when I can finally make a move!) as will any other person leaving HKG. HKG is the only base I can think of that has such a highly diversified contractual remuneration package, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So I think the argument is more about leveling the playing field, when you're in the same field.

Though if the based guys are out to fight for better terms and conditions justifiably, then I'm right behind them, they will get my vote 100%.

[Captain Dart]

You've got mine too! :D

[bogie30]

Has there ever been an expatriot on the float? How come only the CEP's only get asked to float. Thats a bit racist isn't it? I'm sure its great fun... go on volunteer, bring back the love.

[geh065]

I think what the CEPs are arguing is that different people on the same base (In this case HKG) have different packages. For the case of overseas basings, everyone is employed by a shelf company and on the same conditions. If say half of people on the Vancouver base got housing and the other half did not then yes that is discrimination.

It would be great if everyone got housing everywhere. At Cathay we are all separated into different groups with different interests. Unfortunately the way things improve is for those groups to fight for improvements. Unfortunately one group will rarely help to support, or even care much about the gripes of the other group. Now it is the locals turn to argue their demands and instead of support or even being indifferent to it, you all jump up and down about something that does not even concern you? We are our worst enemy we really are. It is no surprise our conditions never improve and the way we beat each other up perhaps that is what we deserve.

[Hkgdriver]

If they want a payrise good luck but the truth is hard to swallow. It is not discriminatory just like paying A scale B scale freighter scale, are we not all doing the same job??
Stop the crap, if you guys and girls feel so strongly about it then go for it but all I see from a public perception is sour grapes about signing a contract that you now think is beneath you?? I could also say this is just a nice decoy from our DFO to focus on in the up coming housing talks but that would be too clever?? Well I want my A scale pay and my 13 month back on a base that was taken in 99 so yeah I am with you lets all join hands and sing I can see the light.................... nope its just a train!:ugh:

[CXdiscriminates]

I am a holder of a Hong Kong permanent ID card and was offered a Direct Entry position with Cathay Pacific back in 2007. At the time I had over 5000 total hours with 1500 hrs command on a B767.

I was offered Local terms. So it does not matter whether you have 0 hours or thousands of hours, CX will discriminate and pay Hong Kongers less to do the same job.

The Cathay Pacific Group continues to earn it's money from Hong Kong (and exploit it) yet it does not even have the decency to provide it's citizens with well paid jobs.

CX is now hiring cadets from all over world citing that it is unable to recruit local pilots. Not true.

There are many Hong Kong pilots flying overseas that have the required experience and qualification to join Cathay Pacific, however as long as Cathay Pacific continues to discriminate against Hong Kong pilots/people by paying them virtually half the pay for the same job it will never attract any local talent whether experienced or not.

[Mullah Lite]

But that's precisely it, we are all doing the same job. And yes CEPs feel that the contract is inadequate. And if you were to ever feel that B scale was beneath you and wanted to do something about it, I'm quite sure that you would get the support you needed from the CEP body because in the long run, it benefits us all. At the very least, I would imagine you would not be getting a public berating from fellow CEPs if you were trying to better your conditions if you had felt you had a justification for doing so.

[Tornado Ali]

Hmmmm, call me a conspiracy theorist, but the timing of this is very suspect. Intreresting how this issue has erupted at the same moment that Nick places a cryptic comment in Crews News regarding housing and the definition of who qualifies as a 'local' (ie: who would not qualify for housing). It is obvious that CX are about to take a major run at the most sacrosanct item in our contracts, that of housing (and perhaps also the 'right of return to HK'). It would seem that generating a huge contoversy in respect of 'discrimination' (particularly if they couch it as local vs expat benefits) would suit the coming negotiations perfectly. CX could insist that in the 'interests of fairness', housing must now be seen to be 'equitable', but of course the budget could not be increased, blah, blah, blah... I suspect this is the first major attack designed to neuter expat benefits (for pilots only of course...don't expect to see this applied to management!). The AOA had better get their hardhats on....this one is going to get ugly. As for the CEP's, your arguement is false...but I do support you obtaining a significant pay rise instead. The housing arguement is simply disengenuous.

[Lowkoon]

What about same pay when they meet the minimum requirements to get the job in the first place? 1000 hours in command, pic doesnt count, all the "unwritten" experience requirements that get you an interview with CX or KA in the first place? Not an unfair situation when your training has been covered. Once you meet the minimum requirements that the expats get hired under, same pay. Might take a while to get that 1000 hours multi command though.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Being the devils' advocate here:

I would rather have my basic package increased to my "basic + allowances" to allow me to what I want with the money. I'm being taxed on the housing allowance anyway but stuck with their arcane rules. A few (and we all know who) have fallen foul of the red tape and been terminated in a brutal and public fashion.

IF the Savills people at CX were done away with, there would be an immediate cost savings.

IF we were to get a basic increase it would satisfy the guys and girls on LEP T&C.

IF they paid a non-discriminatory package to all they (NR, TT et al) would be able to hold the moral high ground - an important position in the tough times that are bound to follow in the next decade or so.

IF they want to make CX a more attractive proposition for locals it would make a mediocre at best package seem a lot better. You attract more flies with honey...

IF they raised the basic package there would be more incentive for some to stay on bases.

They have had it so good for so long, even they can't believe their luck. I have heard (on more than one occasion) a smug suit bragging in the Gay Bar how they have not only been able to suppress pilot salaries for 15 years, but are able to attract more and more desperate types to HKG on steadily reducing packages. I had to leave when I heard that, BTW (for my own job longevity). I didn't fancy being another Darby M.

Just my .02c. Its' time for the AOA to come to the company with a dramatic and innovative approach to what is rapidly becoming a hot potato with Corporate Communications (even typing that title gets my BP rising).

WE (the pilots) Local and Expat are the solution.

[Tornado Ali]

Underpants. Don't lose sight of the fact that this whole scenario is probably being orchestrated by CX. What better backdrop to negotiations with the AOA than that of the issue of 'fairness' and 'public concern' as to the 'discrimination' that the expat package represents to the 'people' of Hong Kong. No matter what is said, the day is surely coming where a bright red line will be crossed...then what will you (and we) do...?

[BusyB]

Tornado,
Nick has been making that same cryptic comment for at least 2 yrs to my knowledge:}

[CXChildLabour]

I can't agree with you more Cpt. Underpants. Call it pay, allowance, housing, rent assistance, under-the-table-money, whatever, WE DO NOT CARE. At the end of the day, it's equality that we're looking for.

Lowkoon, I sure hope you can write to the company on CEP's behave, cause as of right now, even those CEP's with 1000 multi command time ARE NOT getting equal pay. So thank you very much for your support in advance.

And those who keeps saying that the cadets took a backdoor, jumped the queue, or what have you. Please explain to me why then are those instructor cadets getting full housing allowance? They had no experience when they joined the program and would NOT have any commercial command time when they come back to CX. I'm sure it's a coincidence that a senior captain's son just so happens to be in the course, even though he originally was accepted into the normal cadet course. It's interesting to note that a handful of CEP's (even captains) actually asked about the possibility of going back down to ADL to be in the instructor course.

With NR citing on a RTHK talkshow today the possibility of doing away housing allowances and giving a cash allowance instead, which I'm sure will be MUCH MUCH less than what expats are getting right now, I am actually looking forward to the day the "other" pilot group starts crying foul and look for support from the "remaining" pilot body in their fight to keep their housing. Highly doubt the CEP's would come back and say "we warned you so live with it".

[Dragon69]

cxchildlabor,

I am actually looking forward to the day the "other" pilot group starts crying foul and look for support from the "remaining" pilot body in their fight to keep their housing. Highly doubt the CEP's would come back and say "we warned you so live with it".You are one twisted bitter envious individual and I certainly hope the rest of the LEPs don't share your views

You know what, if the day comes when CX takes away the housing allowance I'll put my money where my mouth and I will leave CX, but I'll bet my life savings that should you be unsuccessful in your fight, you will remain here in CX like the good little bitch that you are, so stop your F:mad:ng whinging, I've had just about enough of you!

[Tornado Ali]

Time for the based pilots to return to HK and lock in the present housing deal. I think it may be too late in another year or so....

[Mullah Lite]

BusyB and Ali, I'd actually heard about it about 5+ years ago.

btw Ali, how is the housing argument disingenuous....would you mind sharing your viewpoint? Calling the CEP perspective false is pretty strong terminology.

[Dixi Normus]

Yes, envy is the keyword in this debate. The LEPs are envious of their expat peers for getting more renumerations for doing the same job. The expats are envious of the LEP for getting a jet job at a much younger age. CX management are envious of HX management for having a "lapdog" pilot group!

[iLuvPX]

Look its quite simple really. LEP bring to the table a lesser product than most expats, therefore get paid accordingly. You cant demand the same pay for less experience and skill. They were happy to sign-up for the job with those conditions, now they are just envious and greedy. Pilots on bases dont get an allowance, no complaints there.

Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front, than some crusty ole expats. Think about it.

[iMad]

"....Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front...."

So do you imply "local" ex-cadets are inferior to non-local ex-cadets? hmm....seems a bit racist to me....

Also, don't be surprised to fly with certain Management pilots who are ex-cadets....

[Tornado Ali]

The argument is disingenuous for one simple reason: if you were to get housing allowance in HK, why should not every pilot in his home base also get a housing allowance? Also, do local bankers get a housing allowance...or any other local in a high paying job? I support you getting a pay raise, but I can't see why you should get a housing allowance. Remember, most expats have to dedicate a large piece of their salary towards paying for a house back in their home country. That is the main reason they must get a housing allowance in Hong Kong. Either that, or there is suddenly 2600+ locally experienced pilots that CX can hire to replace us.

[Tornado Ali]

I feel sorry for the younger guys in this company. Within 10 years CX will be no better than any chinese airline in pay and conditions. A career airline it will definitely NOT be....

[iMad]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Hong Kong Government gives expat employees (who are overwhelmingly in higher-paying positions) and Local Hong Kong employees the exact same housing deal.

[CXChildLabour]

69er,

You are one twisted bitter envious individual and I certainly hope the rest of the LEPs don't share your views

Well, as much of a twisted bitter envious individual u claim that I am, at least I know what fair, equal, unity and peer support actually mean. If you read my post again it was more about CEP would show support for their expatriate counterparts if that does happen one day, rather than dissing their peers for their own benefit, cause we all know what it feels like on the other end of the stick.

iLuvPX, it's a pity that you don't sleep well with two ex-cadets up front flying together. I sure hope you have better sleep with two direct entry FO's up front, cause u'll need it when the plane makes a 180 turn due to lack of contingency fuel crossing the Pacific. Funny enough, these guys would be considered to have enough experience and skills to be an expat in HKG 4 years later.

[water check]

Childlabour (and all the other CEP's). It is not that we don't support you, we completely support your right to a fair and equitable contract. It's just the philisophical difference of opinion regarding Housing Allowance. It does not seem reasonable that local born and bred pilots should expect an allowance for something that is necessary for expats (because they would have to be paying for and maintaining a house in their home countries). I don't think this is a difficult concept to understand. In addition, if the HK locals got housing, then why shouldn't the based pilots receive housing? I think a better approach would be to ask for an improvement to pay and other benefits. That is something that we can all support.

[cxorcist]

Come on guys and gals! Stop arguing with each other about this, and let's throw our support behind the CEPs (LEPs). We all share a common opponent in this struggle. The notion that "their" gain will result in "our" loss is non-sensical. CX has plenty to go around.

It is ridiculous to suggest that a year-long cadet course is worth a career's worth of housing allowance. There is no doubt that some period of apprenticeship or pay back should be required, but not this much for this long. It is discrimination and wrong no matter how you slice it. Hong Kong is one of the most expensive places in the world, and a SO or FO salary without housing is undoubtedly insufficient to live much above the poverty levels. The captains 24K is little more than a proverbial slap in the face.

CEPs are professional pilots, and they deserve the opportunity to be compensated equally once their experience rivals that of the expats. To argue that they should be held back for their entire career is absurd.

For those of you requiring further convincing, consider how much stronger our pilot group is with the CEPs in the AOA. They recently joined in mass and pushed us above 70% membership. Their presence makes us much stronger going into future negotiations. We ALL need this strength. Those of you who "free-ride" have the opposite effect. So get it together and join!

[water check]

cxorcist. You are MISSING THE POINT. We ALL support the CEP's, but I can't support them on the issue of housing allowance. A substantial increase in pay is reasonable, but housing is something for expats (for the reasons explained). To keep hanging on to the issue is pointless. Housing is not available on a base, so why should someone 'local' in HK get it? If you want to keep ignoring the points raised, then go ahead, but all you do is lead the CEP's down a blind alley. We can ALL agree that pay raises are deserved and well overdue, but you are distracting the company away from that with the issue of housing for locals. In the end, everyone will be worse off...including the CEP's. :ugh:

ps. I live in London, arguably the worlds MOST expensive city (with much higher taxes to boot). Shouldn't I be entitled to housing allowance based on your logic??

[CXChildLabour]

Watercheck,

I'm sure most CEP's would agree with me that WE DO NOT CARE how the improvement is incorporated. Whether it's an improvement in pay, benefits, allowance, whatever. AS LONG AS it's something that would bring our level of income AND JOB RESPECT to a similar level as the guy next on the list. And in doing so we DO NOT want any degradation in condition for any of our counterparts.

And for the MILLIONTH time EVERYONE, we respect the fact that the company invested in our career and a payback period is required. Just that it should be a REASONABLE FIXED period, be it 3 years, 6 years, 10 years, whatever, JUST NOT THE WHOLE F:mad:ING CAREER.

As for the whole basing thing, well respected. However, direct entry has a choice of lifestyle or load up his bank account, doesn't matter how much/less experience he has (in or out of this company) he still has a choice. As for CEP, there's the choice of getting screwed financially for life, or still getting screwed financially for life cause we couldn't load the bank account up before going onto a base. We simply had no choice if we want to have the slightest chance to be able to retire with a survivable saving at the end.

[cxorcist]

No offense, but it may be you that is missing the point. You, presumably, have the option to come back to Hong Kong and collect a full housing allowance, but you choose to live and base in London. (BTW - You could live somewhere less expensive in the UK and commute.) Where can CEPs live except in Hong Kong?

You are a CX pilot and the CEPs are CX pilots. The only differences are the entry mechanism, country of origin, and most likely the amount of experience upon joining. In my post, I wrote that there should be an apprenticeship or period of pay-back for CEPs; after which they should be entitled to the same compensation as expats.

[Steve the Pirate]

CxChildLabour and antagonists

Please re-read my post #14. What's happening on this thread is internicine lunacy. There is a more appropriate place to discuss matters such as this so start a thread there if you want to. That way you'll not run the risk of this debate (I use the term lightly) being fuelled by someone who might have a different agenda.

Please re-read my post #25. So far, all the announcement seems to have achieved is opening up a bit of a Pandora's Box.

Come on guys, think about what's happening here.

STP

[iLuvPX]

CXchildlabour,

To get the same "level of income or RESPECT" you have to earn it. You just cant start from nothing, get your training paid for, and jump straight to a major airline and expect to be treated like someone else who spent decades building the required experience. Thats just ridiculous.

Cadets/LEP's would deserve the same pay if CX compensated every other pilot for their years of training, late night cargo flights, hauling trash around northern canada, the outback, or where ever.

To make it fair, all pilots would have to get a housing allowance, based or not. What makes you so special?

[geh065]

Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front, than some crusty ole expats. Think about it.

I can't believe anyone would even say this. I have flown with plenty of ex-cadets, direct entry F/Os, S/Os and based captains in the last few years and I must say that the ex-cadets are normally some of the sharpest, book-smart people I know. The ex-cadet captains and training captains are every bit as good as the best expat captains and even the worst ex-cadet is by far much better than the worst expat pilot I have flown with. Some of the expats have actually been pretty average to say the least so your opinion is nothing short of being racist.

The locals are hired after a barrage of tests and intense training. If they are not very capable, they do not pass all this. Some expats have had a rather chequered histrory prior to CX but because they have the hours and pass the interview process, they get in. The same expats sometimes admit that if they were the do the intense course the locals do, that they would probably not have passed, and having seen their flying skills, I believe it!

This is nothing about race and please don't make it so. This is a public forum.

[F_one]

After reading all of these post I've come to one conclusion, we all want more money. Be it the CEP, B-scalers or based pilots. There are various arguments for all parties involved on why they(we) should get more money.

Most of these individual arguments makes for some compelling reading and some do actually make sense.

What I don't understand is that some guys on this forum are willing to cut of their fellow CX pilots throats to hopefully gain this advantage. Stop being so self-centered and look at the bigger picture (NOT you account).

That is why CX management is getting away with it to pay us less for more productivity. Instead of standing together and helping one group of pilots, we all try and fight to better our own packages individually. In doing so we keep on pushing each other down.

Better conditions for one group will on the long run mean better conditions for us all. If we support one group and they get a better deal, then the next group will have so much more grounds for getting a better deal as well. (and support from the rest of the pilot group).

My only conclusion to all of this childish bickering and the "we are better than them" attitudes is that you guys are not the professionals that you pretend to be, and if I was management I would also not take you seriously.

Now, bring it on. I've got broad shoulders.:ouch:

[Mullah Lite]

Ali:

Yes as mentioned before that issue of housing on basing has come up and what the CEPs have been arguing for is same package on base (mentioned before), i.e. wherever it is you live, you will get as much as the next guy who is your next door neighbour. As others have mentioned, it is always the option for those on overseas basings to come back to hong kong, but such an opportunity does not exist for local guys anywhere on the network, no matter where they go. Again, even for DEFOs, (arguably also locals having been hired for that exact purpose, to stay where they were hired!) have the option of a HKG basing after 4 years service. So CPEs believe there is a clear disparity in ultimate career opportunity there. Anyways, just a couple of reasons why.

geh 065, thank you for your reasonable comments.

iLuvPX.....was that your trailer I saw parked outside the City this morning? Just wanted to let you know that swastika bumper sticker of yours was peeling, you might want a new one.

[Freehills]

"Do any other local staff in CX or swire (management?) receive housing? If so, housing should be paid to the CEPs"

Yes senior local management do, and yes, CEPs Captains get the same housing payments as senior local staff. This is obviously though much lower than the expat captains get.

[tiger321]

The whole "you are from HKG and shouldn't get housing allowance" is a little dated I would suggest.

That may have been the case when the cadet courses started as you had to have a permanent HKID card. The bar was shifted to those with Resident HKID cards meaning that we attracted a large bunch of Canadian/English/Aus cadets a large number of whom had never lived in Hong Kong (expats?). In true CX spirit the bar has shifted again - now you don't need any connection to HKG to join the cadet course! What is the argument for these guys not getting housing?

I too did my hard yards and joined as a DESO. I believe that Cadets should pay an apprenticeship for having their licenses paid for and arriving with little or no experience but that apprenticeship shouldn't last their entire careers.

Maybe call this a CEP allowance instead of housing. Would that make those worried about their own housing happier? I'm all for raising the standard of remuneration for a small group within our ranks. It can only bode well for the rest of us in the long run. CX's scare tactics, of we have a pot this large and everything must come out of it, is exactly that - scare tactics. They have much more in there pot than they ever imagined because they have suppressed our package for so long.

Come on guys - a group of our fellow pilots is asking for support and all they are getting is abuse. It's time to start looking at constructive ideas here instead of the childish bashing that goes on.

All those "old fellas" that were screaming discrimination just months ago should be putting their weight behind these guys too. You blokes should know firsthand what it feels like to be alienated as a minority group - get out there and support these guys by offering constructive ideas rather than "cannot."

[Dragon69]

various cxchildlabor posts from last year,

For an easy solution, we should put all expats into apartments out in Gold Coast just like our expat cabin crew. I believe that's a perfect fit for the lifestyle they're used to, with a yacht club, open seaview, and far away from town. They can all whine about not being able to support the numerous cars, boats, planes, wives, gf's, bf's, or whatever they're into in that little clubhouse there.

Have you ever flown with any RP/RQ DEFO who simply has no clue what he's doing? I did, felt like a training SO.


It's unfortunate but even for myself months away from my upgrade, I can't say for sure if there'd even be a slot available when my turn comes, or even for years to come...

Hi guys, looking to convert my HKCAD CPL/ATPL into a Transport Canada one... Would any of you have done it before or got any details about it??? Greatly appreciated...


Let me get this straight, you are still a wet behind the ear JFO CEP from Canada and were making a stink about the expat housing allowance as early as when you were an S/O :confused::confused::confused:

So staying in Canada to pay for your very expensive licenses, and then trying for years to get a decent flying job, all while you are earning below poverty, and having to travel across the country to where the jobs are didn't appeal to you because of the cost, hardship, time, etc. Instead you take advantage of your Hong Kong connection and apply for the cadet scheme knowing full well the conditions you are joining under. Once here you all of a sudden think it is your god given right to be entitled to the housing allowance.

Two words for you...GET LOST :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[goingdown]

Guys we need to calm down about this and bring the issue to the AOA forums.
That is gonna turn messy, keep your:cool:

[water check]

To all CEP's: Your mistake is defining your shortfall in income under the banner of 'housing allowance'. For a whole host of reasons, the logic of that will fall flat. If you want an increase in pay (which ALL of us support, for everyone including CEP's), then you should be agitating for an increase in salary, or perhaps a 'cost of living' adjustment of some sort. Don't make the mistake of thinking we don't support you, we do. It's just that the basis of your arguement will lead nowhere. Change the context of your dispute with the company to something that cannot be destroyed with a logical repost. We have all been 'dumbed' down in respect of pay and benefits, and we all deserve that being addressed.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Before joining ANY company, you have a look at what's on offer, and you either accept the contract as is or say "thanks, but no thanks" and find something else, plain and simple.:ok:

Apparently there are some legal issues regarding the signing of training bonds in Hong Kong, but if that could be overcome, I wonder how many LEP's would THEN be prepared to sign up and pay off 1.5-2 million HKD$, whilst receiving housing allowances?:ooh:

Then again, why TRAIN and employ LEP's AT ALL, as there are so many DEFO's available out there...food for thought:cool:

[rhoshamboe]

Except if you now want to work till 65 Ad Posse??

[Mullah Lite]

Here's another thought:

Most people I come across mutter things about having no pay increments added to basic pay to combat the inflation that happens year after year. If we are talking about knowing what we signed up for, I don't think there is anything in our contracts, 99 or 08 that states 'the payscale will be amended from time to time to reflect the percentage rise in inflation' unlike other things that are 'amended from time to time' at the company's discretion. As I see it in the contract, the payscales are fixed integers that do not change until a new contract is rolled out, but that isn't stopping anyone from thinking about the next step. I understand that the inflation has not come to a point where living standards are compromised and as such there has not been a push to have the payscales rearranged, but if it were, it would still constitute an effort to change contracts that we have already signed up for. So in essence, what is going on with the CEPs is much on the same lines. I personally don't believe that using semantics or synonyms makes any difference in this argument, housing, special allowance, call it what you want, but it's about bringing the CEP living standard and take home to be the same as the next guy. Thought processes on the subject may suffer fatal incompatabilities between different members on this forum but in the long run, why is it such an issue for some to see their colleagues make a push to make things better for themselves? What does that say about their character? Is it about making people toil and dreg through exactly what they had to go through to get to where they are, or should it be more about being able to do what they do, to be at the same standard? What is the ultimate goal for keeping the brother man down?

[Mullah Lite]

Ad Posse

That's the whole point though, what you said can basically translate into serving the first several years with basic pay only, forfeit any allowance to pay back the training costs with respect to company profitability (although that in itself could interpreted). Some of us did the maths, don't quote me on this though, and figured that it would take about 5 years (conservatively) to recoup the training costs in its entirety, if not less depending on time of upgrade. I really should find some hard numbers to post but it's just a ballpark figure. Given that some guys have the potential to serve 30 + years, that's a lot of make up time left over to have without receiving anything to make up with, no?

As for DEFOs, it actually says in my contract in black and white, that FOs will not be hired directly onto a base. So the company unilaterally changes the contract for '08 which now allows it. Surely if the company is at leisure to change contracts in their entirety which affects the existing workforce, then the employees are allowed some latitude to discuss changes to theirs as well to make up for any adverse effects? Doesn't seem unreasonable.

Trying to fight the system, not each other.

[Guru]

I think a lot of opinions are not focusing on the real underlying issue but instead on what we should call it.

LEPs and those expats in support of LEPs striving for better conditions, but oppose to LEPs receiving a 'housing allowance', are essentially in favour of the same thing: to narrow the gap in money earned over a 20-30 year career. It just so happens that the difference in the amount we earn IS the housing allowance expats receive. If the company agrees to pay LEPs an amount of money which would fully or partially narrow this gap but on the condition that it must be called something other than a 'housing allowance', I'm quite certain no LEPs would object to it. We are not demanding to be treated as 'expats', we just think the company should not pay us so much less than some other employee who is making the same amount of contribution throughout our careers.

I think it is exactly the company's strategy to tie up all arguments to the term 'housing allowance'. Instead of addressing the issue of whether a 70% gap (60%, 80%, whatever) in money earned over 30 years is equitable or not, the company as well as colleagues wishing to maintain this disparity simplistically brand this difference the cost the company needs to pay in order to attract expats.

To my colleagues who argue that the housing allowance should just be for HK based expats and seem even to be offended by the LEPs' quest for better pay, the question I would like to put to you is: Is it the amount of money the company pays you which persuades you to continue working here, or is it the knowledge that you are paid a certain amount more than LEPs which convinces you that you are paid what you are worth?

[CXChildLabour]

69er,

Thanks for your effort in researching into my background. It seems that you have a little problem looking into the big picture of my posts. All along I've been saying that the CEP's acknowledge there should be a payback period for the company to recover its cost. Is that really "ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW IT IS YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE ENTITLED TO THE HOUSING ALLOWANCE"? How long would you consider as "ALL OF A SUDDEN"? Your whole career? How about ALL OF A SUDDEN you want your upgrade? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want your bypass? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want RA65? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want a payrise? ALL OF A SUDDEN you think your housing allowance should go with inflation? Make it full housing by the time CEP's make captains or 20 years in the company, whatever, at least there should be a set point where it's all equal and their effort and experience should be recognized. If you can give hard prove how our CEP CN or even STC's are simply not as worthy as the next person on the same grade, be my guess and I'll bow down to you.

For sure I ain't simply fighting for myself, unlike some selfish people here trying to cut other peers' throat to protect their very own interest. Whether this whole thing benefits me or not is still up in the air, but I can tell you it's very highly unlikely as I've said already that HKG isn't in my long term plan, I probably should try to fight for housing for the base guys if anything. Not everyone in this forum speak ONLY for themselves, there's a much greater interest out there for all of your counterparts' condition to be improved. Just think about it, if the local terms improve, what is the lowest the company could go if eventually NR does say expats do become a local after so many years? CEP's are not fighting for their interest to degrade others' life, and sure as hell we wouldn't be jumping up and down trying to prevent the others improve/protect their own when the time comes.

[geh065]

It should be noted of course that in our very own government in Hong Kong, senior civil servants receive housing allowance, regardless of whether they are expats or local, regardless of whether they joined the government with previous experience or started low and worked their way up. Arguing against the CEPs receiving housing is basically arguing against the government housing policy and also that of many large companies in Hong Kong.

Do other expats here have a problem with the local captains receiving $24,000 a month? I certainly don't, I have never heard of anyone complaining against it. The way everyone is bleating on perhaps argues that all local level D staff should not even be in receipt of the $24,000. So either you agree with the reasoning or you do not. You cannot have it both ways and call it what you want, housing, 'Special Allowance' etc... If no-one is against the logic of the $24,000 special allowance then how about a special allowance that matches the housing that expats get? If you are against it, then lets talk about who is jealous of who.

[christn]

Those doing the same job should receive the same salary.

Expatriate benefits are for expatriates.

If you confuse these your argument becomes untenable.

[Mullah Lite]

My turn for devil's advocate

Expat = someone who is not a HKG permanent resident

Does this line of logic not then set a dangerous precedent for allowing the company to pursue what has been threatened over the last few years? I'm guessing that a very decent percentage of the expat...or should I say overseas hired....pilot body have a permanent HKID card. I for one most Certainly (note the capital) do not want to see a diminshing of their T&Cs because of that distinction.

[Dragon69]

at least there should be a set point where it's all equal and their effort and experience should be recognized. If you can give hard prove how our CEP CN or even STC's are simply not as worthy as the next person on the same grade, be my guess and I'll bow down to you.For one thing CEP CNs do get housing allowance, granted it may not be as high as what an expat gets, but it is something, and I know of no expat that think they should not receive it. Having said that, are you suggesting that a local CN should get full expat benefits when he is living in his home country with family nearby compared to an expat that has made the sacrifice to live abroad in a foreign place leaving family behind with poor prospects of being able to take a future base???

If you are suggesting that eventually there should be no distinction between an 'expat' and a 'local' then why was there a push in the past 20 years to hire 'local talent'??? The cadet program really should have been open to anyone and everyone right from the start, and with the bigger pool of applications how many less 'locals' would have bee hired???

It is fine and dandy to use discrimination to argue your point, but you don't seem to have a problem with the fact that you as a Chinese Canadian were able to get employment at Cathay compared to many non Chinese Canadians that would have jumped at the opportunity to be a CEP (albeit now it is different), well isn't that a form of discrimination?? You can whip out you HK ID card when it suits you and mock the expat community here in HKG, but you sure are just as quick to whip out your Canadian passport too!

[beerboy]

The person who started this thread, are you a company man by any chance?
Your title has indeed caused a lot of emotions.
Why wasn't it entitled local pilots after an improvement in conditions?

I've asked a local pilot and they are not asking for pay and perks to the extent of an expat, just an improvement to their own conditions, that NR has already promised to them..at a later date, supposedly.

I guess if you wanted an argument, then you've got one, but pretty sad that you've got to alienate your fellow pilots to go and do so.

[Mullah Lite]

69 er

I think the point that he's trying to drive home is that at some stage the disparity in income becomes nothing less than comparative servitude despite the equal requirements both parties have to meet, rank for rank. If the distinction you are making is because of leaving family behind, and I'm assuming you are excluding spouse and children, then there are plenty of those in the CEP rank who are the same, myself included. As you pointed out, things have changed recently with the opening up of the CEP program globally, and bear in mind that all of these changes have put CEPs further down the pecking order but which have galvanised a refusal to remain passive in the wake of these changes. By this I mean: the introduction of the instructor course in ADL, these guys will have more hours in bugsmashers than some in the regular courses but zero turbine time plus a 4 year jumpstart to the CX seniority list; the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school; the CEP KA FOs who are now receiving a 'special allowance' but who I also believe are entitled to exactly the same living standard as their colleagues <12 K is nice, but simply not the same>; the SLS deduction which carried a 7% penalty to overall income v.s expats' estimated 3.5% (average numbers, and granted this point will be moot if we get it back); an FOC ticket with 11Y priority to get back to work vs 4Y, an education allowance which does not allow us to send our kids overseas unlike the expat package, the years of service that the Prestwick guys had to do before being allowed to join the seniority list.....and this is not even an exhaustive comparison. Bearing these in mind, is it not understandable why the CEPs are fed up at being treated like second class nothings, not just by the company but even by some of the guys they have to work with?

[Dragon69]

Mullah Lite,

If the distinction you are making is because of leaving family behind, and I'm assuming you are excluding spouse and children, then there are plenty of those in the CEP rank who are the same, myself included.


Okay granted there are some CEPs that would be in the same position as an expat which makes the issue even more complex, but I am limiting my argument with cxchildlabor to those CEPs that have a very strong connection to Hong Kong, ie: born and bred, family ties, etc. The main issue here (putting aside special cases) is whether a 'local CEP' should be entitled to expat benefits. If you believe that they should because of same rank same pay, then you should be fighting for expat benefits for everyone, including those on a base, otherwise your argument doesn't hold up and you yourself are discriminating against the based crews. Now it is easy to say, well okay then expat benefits to everyone to justify your demand and argument, but is that being realistic. There are realistic and justifiable demands, I am sorry but this isn't one of them!

the introduction of the instructor course in ADL, these guys will have more hours in bugsmashers than some in the regular courses but zero turbine time plus a 4 year jumpstart to the CX seniority list


Yes agree with you it is utter BS and I support you fully on the above issue.

the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school

If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??

The SLS deduction which carried a 7% penalty to overall income v.s expats' estimated 3.5%

Huh???? How do you reckon????

an FOC ticket with 11Y priority to get back to work vs 4Y, an education allowance which does not allow us to send our kids overseas unlike the expat package, the years of service that the Prestwick guys had to do before being allowed to join the seniority list.....and this is not even an exhaustive comparison

Yes so you should have the same FOC priority as myself to get back home, no arguments there from me! Problem is that the CEP benefits were designed with the born and bred hongkers in mind, there were no allowances made for Chinese or non Chinese CEPs born and bred outside of Hong Kong or with very little connection to Hong Kong....and yes improvements to those areas are long overdue.

[CXChildLabour]

69er,

Having said that, are you suggesting that a local CN should get full expat benefits when he is living in his home country with family nearby compared to an expat that has made the sacrifice to live abroad in a foreign place leaving family behind with poor prospects of being able to take a future base???

So are you suggesting that all expats are getting housing allowance just because they HAD UNWILLINGLY stay in HKG??? In that case may I suggest that those who are WILLING to be relocated back home at short notice may get the allowance while in HKG, as for those who CHOOSES to stay in HKG don't? Cause I don't really see any sacrifices made in the latter case as they're here BY CHOICE.

The cadet program really should have been open to anyone and everyone right from the start, and with the bigger pool of applications how many less 'locals' would have bee hired???

I can assure you that if they opened up the pool to anyone and everyone from the start, this whole ordeal would've taken place even earlier. Imagine your next door neighboor back home coming to HKG and making half as much as you do here, I bet he'd be even more pissed than we are at this point.

but you don't seem to have a problem with the fact that you as a Chinese Canadian were able to get employment at Cathay compared to many non Chinese Canadians that would have jumped at the opportunity to be a CEP

If you put it that way, I sure have problems with the fact that those DEFO's were able to get employment on the base with Cathay compared to many who would've jumped at the opportunity to get the slot but were rejected by various reasons (fleet, rank, joker, etc). You're complaining about how people got hired by the company and thus should suffer for life? What a load of BULL. In that case, could you please write to the company and make sure NOBODY hired on the base EVER come to HKG on expat terms cause they were hired to work on the base in the first place.

And next time if you wanna make your argument valid, please get your facts straight. You're completely ignoring the fact (which the AOA confirmed with the media as well) that there are CEP's who were hired on DIRECT ENTRY TERMS yet were put on LOCAL TERMS once the company found out they own a HK ID card. This is hard proof that the company local terms wasn't designed for ex-cadets, it was designed to DISCRIMINATE those with a HK ID card. If they put EVERYONE who has a HK ID card on local terms, doesn't matter when and how he joined, then it wouldn't be a discimination issue, but that is NOT the case so far. And if you argue that cadets deserve to be on local terms FOR LIFE because of the shortcut and resources used, well then you can also go up to 3rd floor and make sure they put the INSTRUCTOR CADETS on local terms cause they have taken a shortcut and used company resources as well.

As much as I appreciate AOA's effort in helping out the CEP group so far, I'm not a big fan of the new title they've given us cause it's NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. The so-called "Cadet Entry Pilots" group consists of people who DID NOT join via the cadet programme and neither will it include ALL that did. The original title LEP "Locally Employed Pilots" describes the group MUCH MORE ACCURATELY.

[CXChildLabour]

69er,

but I am limiting my argument with cxchildlabor to those CEPs that have a very strong connection to Hong Kong, ie: born and bred, family ties, etc.

Now you're even trying to split the tightly knitted CEP group into two or more. You HAVE NEVER EVER made ANY of ur arguments based on where the CEP was born and bred or family ties what-so-ever. I can tell you right here right now that I was born in HK but grew up overseas, never been back to HK since the move till the interview, and none of my immediate family ties is in HKG when I joined. So there, thanks for proving that you have been wrongly accusing me all along.

If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??

In case you've been out browsing in outter space, you were hired because "the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally". So now that they've fixed that problem, there's only one thing left for you to do really. GET LOST... :ugh:

[Mullah Lite]

69er, a quick reply to some of your reposts as dinner beckons though I think CxChildLabour answered one of them in a more deliberate fashion:

The recruitment pool....if there are not enough CEPs coming from HKG, do it the old fashioned way...hire DESO. It worked beautifully, though of course the company have changed course, in line with their future business plan.

The SLS deduction that I spoke of is with regards to take home pay, not basic salary. With the extra benefits that expats get, the SLS deduction caused a more severe cut to the total take home pay of the CEP vs. the expat. I think the AOA have the figures and I'm quite sure that I saw the 7% vs 3.5% somewhere in the papers, though I will grant that the papers do take liberties sometime. In any case, highlighting the deduction vs. total income was what I was getting at, and I promise you I didn't pull those figures out of thin air. Now just trying to remember where I saw them, anyone else feel free to post the real figures.

[Ex Cathedra]

This is a polarizing debate...

On one side we have the CEPs fighting for an equal package, and on the other expat pilots who know too well that the management's answer to 'equal conditions' will be to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

In the trail of what Guru posted above, would it not be better for the CEPs to fight for an equal living standard, as targeting those 'expat benefits' entails a whole different debate that is certainly not as clear cut as the fact that they do the same job and receive less.

When verdict time comes in court (and it inevitably will), the judges will have no difficulty seeing the gap in living standard, whereas demanding a housing allowance which was never on the table when they signed might turn agaisnt them.

[Dragon69]

So are you suggesting that all expats are getting housing allowance just because they HAD UNWILLINGLY stay in HKG??? In that case may I suggest that those who are WILLING to be relocated back home at short notice may get the allowance while in HKG, as for those who CHOOSES to stay in HKG don't? Cause I don't really see any sacrifices made in the latter case as they're here BY CHOICE.Listen Newbie most expats don't consider Hong Kong their home, they choose to stay purely to get ahead financially based on terms and conditions of employment that they signed up for. Because they choose to stay that doesn't mean that it wasn't a sacrifice to move family and self abroad, but of course if things weren't handed to you on a silver platter you would understand that.

And next time if you wanna make your argument valid, please get your facts straight. You're completely ignoring the fact (which the AOA confirmed with the media as well) that there are CEP's who were hired on DIRECT ENTRY TERMS yet were put on LOCAL TERMS once the company found out they own a HK ID card.So enlighten me, how many exactly are in the above scenario, give me exact numbers before you mouth off!!!! So you take a few discriminatory examples and justify expat benefits to the whole lot......really put some time under your belt first before you become credible, but for now piss off!

[Mullah Lite]

69er, forgot to add:

That point that you made:
Quote:
the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school
"If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??"

That last little bit is almost the point, the CEP program is indeed no longer exclusive to the HKG community, therefore the gap of distinction between expats and locals has become blurred even further. Should the T&Cs not start to reflect that?

Just to be clear, and this is an honest question, am I correct in saying that via the definition of housing, you do not agree that CEPs should have dibs, but given any other name, it is acceptable? So this is a matter based upon definition?

As for the guys who were offered local or nothing, I personally know of one who is no longer with us and is now working for another outfit in HKG (actually he was given expat, these terms were later revoked shortly after he joined) and interestingly enough, another individual who posted on page 3 of this thread, post # 55.

Ex Cathedra
Good point, and yes it is the living standard that we would like to see planed out. Time will tell how to take the direction of the argument.

[Dragon69]

Mullah Lite,

Just to be clear, and this is an honest question, am I correct in saying that via the definition of housing, you do not agree that CEPs should have dibs, but given any other name, it is acceptable? So this is a matter based upon definition?

I thought I and others were clear with the above question. Do not fixate on the housing allowance because you are essentially indirectly attacking it. If you choose to fight for a higher salary or other benefits to compensate for the gap then by all means, go for it. As I said in the beginning the locals at Emirates get paid a higher salary than the expats, let the same happen here!

[Mullah Lite]

69er, nope sorry didn't see through the looking glass but I got your point now.

if the Emirates way results in the same take home pay in the end, then I'm sure the CEPs would be all for it, but personally I think it has to be done in a way that cannot be misconstrued...i.e. if our basic pay goes up, then surely the expats and based guys should be entitled to the same as basic pay is across the board....this I absolutely believe and think it would be a fatal mistake to touch the basic payscales, it would only cause more trouble than there already is.

Not meant to be an insult but it appears to me then that there is a fear quotient involved, that you are concerned that the company will use it as an excuse to attack the foundations of the housing agreement for the expats, based on the definition of the term of the allowance?

I can understand your concern about having the housing allowance undermined, but the CEP point has always been about closing the gap, however the allowance is defined. But I fall back on my own mindset when I say that I believe we are talking semantics, housing allowance/special allowance/local assistance, so that's where I think you and I have a different perspective on the applicability of the terminology. Not necessarily curable, this difference, but may I suggest that if it is of enough concern, let the AOA know about it, because the last thing the CEPs want to do is antagonise the expat community.

[CXChildLabour]

69er,

but of course if things weren't handed to you on a silver platter you would understand that

You talking about yourself? Who's the one here that gets handed a "set-for-life" financial deal? When the prices of real estate rise at a ridiculous pace, who's the one here that could sit back, relax, and enjoy the cathay "I take care of you no worries" service? Who's the one that has to scrape a few extra cents here and there to pay for the inflated rent? All these talk about "you paid your dues elsewhere and it's time for me to rake it in", how about the dues the CEP's are paying their whole career?

So enlighten me, how many exactly are in the above scenario, give me exact numbers before you mouth off!!!! So you take a few discriminatory examples and justify expat benefits to the whole lot......really put some time under your belt first before you become credible, but for now piss off!

It's absolutely amazing how you got this job with your incapability to look at the big picture every single time. Always try to attack small groups here and there but never brave enough to attack as a whole. Nah, it's ok to discrminate a few with this, a few with that, a couple here, couple there, they won't realize it. So far you have failed to justify how a CEP should suffer for his/her whole career just because they were trained by the company. Failed to justify how some would be considered local and others not even when they were hired on the same term and background. Failed to justify your point about a "local CEP" shouldn't get certain entitlment. And flat out avoided to talk about others who ALSO took the backdoor or jumped the queue and still enjoy the benefits. I sure hope your housing allowance is making you feel more superior cause I don't really see how you could achieve the same feeling anywhere else.:=

[Dragon69]

Who's the one that has to scrape a few extra cents here and there to pay for the inflated rent? All these talk about "you paid your dues elsewhere and it's time for me to rake it in", how about the dues the CEP's are paying their whole career?

Poor little boy, right seat of a wide body with zero hours at 24 and he has to scrape a few extra cents to pay for inflated rents....let me get the violin out :{:{:{:{

You speak of injustices, but no mention of your fellow Canadians that were never given the same opportunity (until now) as you were just because of a lousy HK ID card....oh I forgot for now you've conveniently put away your Canadian passport :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:


It's absolutely amazing how you got this job with your incapability to look at the big picture every single time.

Got it through the old fashioned way, certainly not because of a HK ID card.

I sure hope your housing allowance is making you feel more superior cause I don't really see how you could achieve the same feeling anywhere else.

Hey if you have an inferiority complex maybe you should seek counseling.

[Steve the Pirate]

Gentlemen

May I suggest a possible solution to this present impasse? Why don't those of you who feel REALLY strongly about this topic PM each other, agree on a suitable meeting place and then proceed to knock seven shades of sh*t out of each other?

You'll be able to recognize each other at the venue by wearing bandannas that say "Narrow-minded CEP" or "Narrow-minded Expat". When you've finished, NR and co will be there to pick up the pieces.

Embarrassing.

STP

[Dragon69]

Point taken STP, I am done arguing about this, all I can say that this is headed down a dangerous road!!!

[SweepTheLeg]

To all those who oppose LEPs receiving expat benefits after a set amount of time (ie 5 years, 10 years etc - something that pays back their training costs, offsets their extended time at higher pay increments, etc), consider this:

The international cadet program is already in full swing. The current B scale (expat) pilots are rapidly becoming the new A scale pilots. And we all have seen the steady decline of the old A Scale package.

We would be foolish not fight for a common pay scale (as in total remuneration costs ie. housing+education+salary) for the entire pilot group. History has already shown that lower pay scales are rarely, if ever, brought up to the higher pay scale. Rather, it is usually the higher pay scale that is brought down to the lower pay scale.

Food for thought...

[Mullah Lite]

STP

Good call. Returned bandana to dog who is now sitting quietly in the corner.

STL

Big picture. I like.

Lite's out

[tiger321]

Has anybody read the DFO's update?
Talks of an allowance for LEP F/O's (a figure was mentioned) and improvements to the home ownership housing scheme.

[water check]

'...improvements to the home ownership scheme'....?? Beware of DFO's bearing gifts...! :eek:

[katana]

Local or expat, it doesn't really matter.

What does matter is what our licence is worth in the market.

By the company's own admission, the market rate for a licenced and type rated operator is salary + housing + benefits. Though really it's all just money. No argument is going to convince me that expatriates have a unique entitlement to these emoluments. Once you've done the hard graft and QL you are an airline pilot, notwithstanding flying F15's, bug-smashers out of Woolongong or even a 250hr cadet.

Simply put, locals are being paid less than 50% what they ought.

[Near Miss]

From Wikipedia: "An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of the person's upbringing or legal residence."

So from the above, should a former cadet, Chinese and Western (there are plenty of 鬼佬 cadets), who was brought up, and has legal residence, in another country, be considered an expat?

I think we should move away from the argument of "I did my time working in YXXX or CXXX, flying pieces of sh!t through the night, and thus I deserve housing. When I was 24 I was paying 30% of my pay on shared accommodation, asking "You want fries with that?", just so I could afford to buy expired pasta and put fuel in the car. Whereas you joined straight from kindergarten, with no experience, had everything paid for, blah blah". Housing is NOT payment in return for years of hard earned hours. It is an allowance for those not living in their HOME country. Think of it like an overnight allowance.

Now should those cadets, come instructors, be able to move to HKG on full housing, with a higher seniority than the guy/girl sitting next to them on ground school? Probably not, especially if they too have a HKID. Just like that guy who was employed as a DESO, but later forced onto local conditions.

Should a DEFO employed on a base be able to move to HKG and receive full housing after a few years? No I don't think so. They choose to relocate, while working for the same company, to HKG. Whereas the majority had no choice. If they wanted to work for CX, they had to move to HKG. Using this logic, a LEP could choose to relocate to YSSY and expect housing.

What we ALL should be asking for is a base pay increase to keep pace with the cost of things. Not asking for allowances that we are, lets be honest, not entitled to.

PS As for the question of when does an expat become a local? Lets ask NR how long he expects to receive housing?

[geh065]

If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have??

The international cadets in my opinion is the beginning of the end for direct entry pilots. Eventually everyone will be on local terms and the expat contract will become the dying A scale. As B scalers we often have little good to say about the way A scalers allowed the B scale to happen under their noses. Lets make sure that the future pilots of Cathay don't see us B scalers as the bastards that sat and watched as the new contracts got worse and worse. Now is the time for us to collectively fight for an improvement to our packages (regardless of what it is called). There are a number of agreements up for renewal so lets make sure we all get something out of it instead of bickering like children. Honestly is it any surprise the public have such little sympathy for us?

[LongTimeInCX]

Pardon the thread drift, but when geh65 said
As B scalers we often have little good to say about the way A scalers allowed the B scale to happen under their noses

As A scalers, we couldn't believe 'you people' would actually come and sign up for the job on B scales knowing everyone just ahead of you was on A scale :ugh:
However , when you said Honestly is it any surprise the public have such little sympathy for us? I couldn't help but agree.

The carrying on by certain individuals on this thread does our profession no good at all. It makes us look petty, selfish and immature - unbecoming of our occupations.

For what it's worth, I reckon the LEP's are on a hiding to nothing by pushing for the housing aspect, but I would support their achieving a compensatory pay 'addition' after an agreed apprenticeship type period.

Yes they mainly came to the party with nothing, were taught effectively for free, and contributed little for a number of years. In comparison, the older and often type rated expat bought much to the party in hours and normally significant varied experience. I'm sure the company would like it better if pilots were not needed. as we are a somewhat troublesome and hard to manage group, so they dislike us all intensely, both LEP's and expats.

However, is it right that the LEP's are kept in aviation servitude for the whole of their career, most expat posters seem to agree this is unfair.
But for the LEP's to go for the housing aspect is losing sight of the big picture, I would respectfully suggest a different plan of attack if you are really hoping to better your contract. By pursuing the housing, I feel you are doing nothing more than playing into the companies hands, and they are past masters at the divide and conquer game.

[christn]

Well said sir!

[christn]

Whilst following this discussion it is worth considering some history.

'B' scale then 'Freighter only" pilots join CX declaring 'I am happy with my contract!'
After a few years human nature takes over - 'I want what he's got'

The result: an overall stagnation/reduction in salary and conditions.

Why should this be any different? Surely the way forward is not to seen to be demanding something just because someone else has it !

[bm330]

LongTimeInCX concur.

There's already been an erosion of benifits with the not so gentle push to COS08. The company's solution to problems tends to be to impliment the lowest common denominator.

By attacking someone else's "allowance", generally considered as discretionary, the fix is more likely to be a reduction or removal of the allowance as opposed to the CEPs being included.

[bobrun]

This time, I have to say that I am 100% behind the DFO on that one.

Why don't the LEPs pay for their training if they will get an housing allowance?
Why do they have a pretty much guaranteed job as a wide body FO then - why not make them compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training?

And don't forget that "locally employed" based guys do not receive any allowances at any point while LEP in HK do (plus the company has offered to give LEP FOs 12 000$ / mth!).

Someone needs a reality check! Stop comparing yourself to the pilots in HK and look around in the world; you have had one of the easiest and cushiest path in civil aviation that exits today. A few months ago, I flew with a LEP that had just bought his new jag and was planning his ski trip in the Alps....please, with 500hrs total time most of us were struggling to pay rent.

Shame on the AOA for pursuing this issue. I realise they have to try to please everyone, but this pointless case will only hurt us during other real negotiations that we'll have to face this year.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Expat = someone who is not a HKG permanent resident


Mullah Lite:

Wrong! Once employed on EXPAT terms and conditions, the contract is binding no matter HOW LONG you live and work in Hong Kong.

There mere fact that you qualify for a permanent HKID after 7 consecutive years in Hong Kong is a privilage and courtesy from the Hong Kong SAR government and in check with the same rights granted to chinese nationals living and working in overseas countries.

Your employment contract has NOTHING to do with a change in status in the country where you now live and work.

[TGIG]

Hahaha, do you work in the same company as me AD POSSE? No contact has ever been binding for the entirety of one's career - age 65/bypass pay comes to mind...

[Mullah Lite]

Ad Posse

That's not what the DFO seems to think, as his recent remarks have alluded to.

I'm not saying he's right but is it not arguable to say that once you become a permanent legal resident of the country you reside in, that you are no longer, by definition, an expatriate in that country....because it is now a legal residence?

Which is why I'm saying, it's a dangerous precedent to follow....the company is trying to blur the lines between definitions of locals and expats, and in that run are trying to pit the expats against the locals (are bobruns comments not an example?), using the locals as scapegoats for the what they are planning for the greater pilot community. And don't think that the company hasn't thought about it for a long time. This is playing right into their hands. I understand the concept that you are putting forward, that once a contract is signed, that it remains as is, but you and I both know that that is not the case in CX, and that things change and become redefined at their behest, not ours.

[CXChildLabour]

Poor little boy, right seat of a wide body with zero hours at 24 and he has to scrape a few extra cents to pay for inflated rents....let me get the violin out

How about those 40 years old senior FO/CN/STC who has been in the aviation industry for 20 years??? You wanna play them a sad song with your violin too???

oh I forgot for now you've conveniently put away your Canadian passport

Ah, no, I've been using my canadian passport all along and don't even own a SAR passport if you really wanna know. Nationality on my cadet application form: Canadian; Nationality on ICAO card: Canadian; Nationality on my license: Canadian. And when I called the recruiting department up before my interview they've considered me as an "overseas applicant", but a "local" when they said I'm accepted into the programme, so if you really wanna categorize me, I'm an "overseas local" if that makes sense to you. What else would you like to know?


Anyway, STP is right, it's pointless trying to crack a tough nut. This would be my last response to Dragon69's post.

[CXChildLabour]

plus the company has offered to give LEP FOs 12 000$ / mth!

LOL, how long have u been working in this company to believe every single word in that DFO update? As far as I know, the "offer" was verbally conversed to the LPF committee as a "possibility", nothing is written anywhere black and white nor was a effective date given. Far as I know, it could come somewhere between the year 2010 to 20010. The company "offers" a lot of promises, you tell me how many actually became reality.


Wrong! Once employed on EXPAT terms and conditions, the contract is binding no matter HOW LONG you live and work in Hong Kong.

Your employment contract has NOTHING to do with a change in status in the country where you now live and work.

Oh really? Why were the Canadian based guys forced to sign onto COS08 or else they'd have to give up their base? Wasn't COS99 binding for them on that base? And why do the DEFO's get expat status when they move to HKG after they signed a local term contract on the base? It's a binding local term contract they signed so they should be paid as a local no matter where they're based, correct? The CEP's signed a binding local term contract and they're paid local terms on a base........... :confused:

[CXChildLabour]

Why don't the LEPs pay for their training if they will get an housing allowance?

You go around and ask the CEP's if they're willing to pay back their training cost if they could get an housing allowance. I for one am willing to pay interest of top of or even double the training cost if it gets me there. 1.2 million HKD equals how many years of housing allowance, you do the math for me. It can't even get u a half decent 400 sq ft apartment in town.

Why do they have a pretty much guaranteed job as a wide body FO then - why not make them compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training?

Guaranteed job as a wide body FO? Dude, have you actually been through CX training system? What's guaranteed is if you have the slightest screw up you're gonna get a call from 3rd floor. Do some research and see what's the percentage of cadet graduates actually get through to become an FO in this company. And sure, let them compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training, CX would love to write off their "suggested" 1.2 million training cost spending that way. In fact, that's a good idea, why not make the instructor cadets compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training. By then they would have enough hours to do so, since they're getting the full allowance anyway it'd only be fair to see if they're as worthy as the next expat pilot applicant.

A few months ago, I flew with a LEP that had just bought his new jag and was planning his ski trip in the Alps....please, with 500hrs total time most of us were struggling to pay rent.

Did you actually ask whether he paid all that with his CX salary? If you didn't then I could tell you that my friend who never had to work owns an Audi R8, do you care? :ok:

[iLuvPX]

Ask yourself this one question: "Are CEP's currently receiving anything LESS than what they SIGNED for in their CONTRACT?"

If the answer is NO, then all this boils down to is GREED and ENVY.

[CXChildLabour]

iLuvPX,

please ask yourself the same question next time you're looking for any sort of improvement in condition. That includes payrise/housing/retirement age/education allowance/p-fund/AFTL and many more. If you EVER want any improvement in ANYTHING that you've signed up for, you're deemed to be greedy and envious.

[iLuvPX]

CEP's are not looking to improve their pay, they are looking to get an EXPAT housing allowance, they want something they are NOT entitled too, something they didnt have when they signed the contract, something that after a few years of eating sandwiches during preflight they think, all of a sudden, they deserve.

More importantly, yet again, CX will come out of this SMILING. It truly begs the question whether the AOA is in bed with management. A subtle note by NR about "when does an expat become local" in a previous missive, then conveniently the AOA launches this attack. End result...expats will inevitably pay for this with their benefits...better burn that HK ID card!

My guess, CEP's get a little something in housing allowance, paid for by reduction of expat housing allowance, CX comes out net ahead, AOA still remains useless.

[CXChildLabour]

iLuvPX,

Please read my lips and repeat after me: "CEP DO NOT CARE WHAT FORM THE IMPROVEMENT COMES IN, THEY ARE LOOKING TO CLOSE THE GAP". If it's too hard of a sentence for your brain to process, get your kid to help you out.

And as for your "all of a sudden" accusation, you can go back to post #94, I've shot down Dragon69 once already regarding the same thing and do not plan to waste my time with you again.

Sure as hell you should burn that HK ID card of yours, why would you want it anyway? You're an expat, not a local, you don't want to stay and live in this place would you? It's not what you sacrificed for.

[CXChildLabour]

they want something they are NOT entitled too, something they didnt have when they signed the contract, something that after a few years of eating sandwiches during preflight they think, all of a sudden, they deserve.

And those signed onto COS08 were entitled to RA65? Was it in the contract when you signed? Why was it then after so many years of earning a hefty salary and you think all of a sudden you deserve an extra 10 years at the expense of delayed upgrade for others? Gimme a break.

[iLuvPX]

Thanks for the tip, I did ask my kid, here's what came out of it:

Took her to the store to buy a toy, she did and thought it was the best toy ever. After playing with it happily for a few years, she saw the neighbor's expensive toys and realized they were better they her's.

Now instead of being happy with the toy's she had, she wants what the other kid had. Instead of asking the neighbor to buy cheaper toys to "REDUCE THE GAP" between my kid's toys, I told my daughter to STFU and go grab me a beer out the fridge, because she chose those toys and shouldn't be ENVIOUS of what the neighbor had.

For a CEP to "reduce the gap" they have to have something better to offer. If CX was to pay based on experience and skill level like most other companies, CEPs would still be working in the mail room.

[CXChildLabour]

iLuvPX,

you know what, I'm totally wasting my time here. You're completely ignoring the fact that some CEP's have been in the company and aviation industry for almost 20 years, with more experience than any SO/FO and even some CN who receives better overall deal, and skills that the company rely on when everything goes to hell. No, that's not a better package to offer to the company than the next guy down the list, it's ONLY GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK IN THE MAIL ROOM. If you do get checked by one of the CEP STC next time, please make sure you tell them exactly what you thought of them before you depart for your flight.

I also feel pity for you girl, she's stuck with the same toy for life. You're probably telling her that she picked that toy so STFU even when she's 40 years old. Nope, not because it doesn't fit what she needs for her age or that she deserves something better, it's ONLY BECAUSE SHE'S ENVIOUS OF HER NEIGHBOUR.

[bubble.head]

HOLD ON! You mean, instead of learning to fly with your own money, having to endure many years in general aviation, getting paid peanuts flying in a death trap, and the forever stress of finding the next job in your career, you CADETS decided to take the shortcut and joined the Cathay Pacific's Cadet program KNOWING full well that you were/are NOT entitled to housing allowance, just so you can wear that pretty uniform and the hat and become an airline pilot?!

GET REAL! Housing allowance is for those who've done the hard yard. There were two paths in front of you when you made that decision, and you chose the cadet route. LIVE WITH IT!

Bunch of whinging and b8tching pilots.

[the point]

F!!!k me! As has been posted before numerous times before, please discuss this on the AOA site. That is if you have access.
If not maybe you should think about applying for it.

[bobrun]

HOLD ON! You mean, instead of learning to fly with your own money, having to endure many years in general aviation, getting paid peanuts flying in a death trap, and the forever stress of finding the next job in your career, you CADETS decided to take the shortcut and joined the Cathay Pacific's Cadet program KNOWING full well that you were/are NOT entitled to housing allowance, just so you can wear that pretty uniform and the hat and become an airline pilot?!

GET REAL! Housing allowance is for those who've done the hard yard. There were two paths in front of you when you made that decision, and you chose the cadet route. LIVE WITH IT!

My thoughts exactly.

Cxchildlabour: if you would rather have the housing instead of the free training, why didn't you start your flying career like the rest of the world did?

You say you would rather pay back the cost of training, but that's only half the equation here! In reality, you would have to pay back the cost of training and quit your job, and then hope to be rehired by a good enough airline after spending probably several years struggling. It's easy to just say you would pay back your training cost but keep the job!

And by the way, not only the CEP have to meet the standards to stay employed. Having been through the training system isn't what I called competing for a job....it's what you do when you have the job!

Like I said, someone needs a reality check.

[betpump5]

This is unfortunately a subject that will divide. For the past 6 months, I have been a huge advocate of the CPP Scheme and have recognised the benefits of having such a scheme. I have also been positive in the FH Wannabee forum in light of posts from our own guys who are pretty much trying to put cadets off from joining the scheme due to lack of Housing Allowance, air pollution, lack of space, and high cost of steak and chips.

Naturally myself and others could read these people (you know you who are) like a book and the basis of their comments was that if we start a culture of not paying housing allowance, then when will it be our turn to have our T&Cs reduced even further? Fair point or over-exagerrated? Its up to you to discuss.

The point is that if we start giving our cadets the same benefits that us DEFO/DEC/DESOs get, then surely the more senior guys will moan as this would be unfair - traning for free, then same benefits. On the other hand, if cadets are not given the same benefits as us, there will also be a group denouncing the CPP scheme and the cadets as it's a threat on our future T&Cs. (By the way IlovePX, you are a F'ing racist for that comment so zip it).

This is a terrible state to be in because whatever is decided, one half of us will not be happy. Any decision is robbing Peter to pay Paul. On another note, the latest DFO update does mention talks regarding a little allowance for LEPs upon reaching FO. What is the general feeling about this allowance. Can it satisfy both parties?

[Tired_All_The_Time]

This thread should be deleted.
It is disgusting that there are so many people here that are trying to deny a group of our colleagues the right to ask for an equal package.
It does not affect the expat contract if the LEP's fight for a better deal. It does not mean that because your contract is better you are therefore a better pilot and worthy of elevated status. It just means that you begrudge a group of our fellows a benefit that makes your own life better.
Standing up in support of the LEP's would benefit all of us in the long run by showing our strength and unity. The company needs to understand that we are not so selfish as individual groups, and so easily managed, that they can cause us to turn on each-other and do their own dirty work for them.
And do not be fooled into thinking that you are safe on your contract. My contract has been changed unilaterally without my permission in the past, with a "sign or you're fired" gun to my head. Don''t think it won't happen again.
We ought to stand by the LEP's to support them in their fight against the company.
Have some integrity and look out for your colleages, and wish them well for a better deal!

[TimsBits]

It's great to see that no longer do we wait for the Company to put forth a proposal , or a change to our conditions that will ultimately have the Pilot body pitted against each other...Now the AOA is doing the work for them!!!!

This whole argument stems from the choices that we make as individuals,, plain and simple.

I joined as a B scale DESO 14 years ago, but before I joined, I had a VERY good look at the conditions that were on offer, and compared them to what was on offer for a pilot with my qualifications in my home country. Simply put....they were better.

When I joined, I was NOT offered A scale Salary and benefits....do I have a valid arguement that as a Captain now, doing the same job as my A scale collegue next door, flying the same aircraft, to the same destinations, in the same wx conditions, that I should now be entitled to A scale Salary and Benefits??? Of course not. Because I know what I signed up for before I came here.

When I joined, I missed out on the Travel Fund offered to Expat Crew only a few months before....should I now ( after doing X number of years of service) be entitled to this Benefit???? As much as it would be nice....NO, because again, I know what I was entitled to under the Contract that I read, and signed, 14 years ago.

Could I have joined the Cadet Scheme as a NON HKID Card Holder at the time, and had my training paid for by CX, with a fairly reasonable chance of my first job being in the back seat of a -400, instead of an instructor on slave wages???? No, because I wasn't entitled to it! So...rather than whinge about what I didn't have, I MADE A CHOICE and I went through the process of gaining enough experience so that I could apply, on EXPAT terms with CX....and fortunately for me, I was accepted....ON THE TERMS THAT WERE ON OFFER AT THE TIME!!!!

I have friends who joined around the same time as I, who were Captains on Lears etc...doing .90 to Europe, Asia and the Middle East, at FL 430 ( passing the CX Classic underneath them) who were told that because they weren't Air Force, flying Twin Otters, or the lightning quick Cariboo, doing 180 kts, that they were only being looked at as potential S/O's, and not direct entry F/O's because of their previous experience....seem fair???? Probably not, but that was what they were being offered at the time. So they had choices, and they made their choices based on the position, pay scale, and benefits on offer at the time

We all have to make choices in our lives, and those choices come with consequences. Plain and simple!

Would I love to have been making A scale salaries, complete with travel funds etc all these years??? Of course I would, but I do not begrudge the guy next to me who has, because that was what was on offer for him.

Now, once we have made those choices, that is not to say that we don't want to protect what we have, and strive for better, but we have to do so wisely, and within reason.

In a war, it is never wise to try and take all the opponents ground in one move, but rather try to take that hill, bridge, river, port etc without EVER losing the ground that you have fought for in getting to where you are now. Try to take too much, and history shows that you are more than likely to not only be unsuccessful in gaining the ground that you were after, but you will most likely lose a part of what you had, and take heavy casualties along the way.

In an effort to try and gain some membership numbers, I believe that is exactly what the AOA is suggesting that the membership support now....rather than try to take the hill , bridge etc and then defend the ground that they have gained, they are suggesting that we throw all of our offence at this "discriminaton" arguement, whilst losing sight of the fact that the war is always won in the accumulation of the small "battles". The current move suggests "all or nothing" Those of us who have been in CX for more than just a few years have seen where that mentality has gotten us!

I fully understand the lack of trust that people feel towards Management who, many times in the past, have made promises, and then failed to deliver. Been there!!!
In this case, the company has said that they are willing to talk about the possibility of an increase in the CEP's "package" when housing talks take place later this year. Maybe you don't trust them...maybe you think the $12K number that has been bantered around is not enough....maybe you think that it should be offered to every CEP from date of joining....lots of things to talk about, but rather than going into the talks with the attitude that " we will push for the best that we can get" and then build on that in the future, the AOA is proposing that it's "all or nothing"

To people like Child Labour...think back to the choices that you made before choosing to join CX....as a Canadian, you could have chosen to pay for your own training, gone and got that instructor job, or float job, and built your hours up to the level required to get a job with CX as a direct entry SO, and therefore been entitled to EXPAT Benefits....but you didn't, you read the contract (presumably) and made a choice. Full Stop!
I don't think anyone at CX wants to see another "group" on lower conditions, but we need to remember the past, and what the outcomes have been using the "all or nothing" approach.
If its about a "cost of living"increase???, than insist that the AOA sells it that way, because no Court in the land is going to see this as discrimination...not a chance. They will say...."you made a choice" plain and simple!
Using your own logic, I have every right to go to Management and demand that I am on A scale Salary and Benefits immediately (as I have done a pre-determined number of years of service) and while your at it, throw in the Travel Fund too....seem sensible???? I made a choice, and I live every day with the consequences!

If, as you say, you would be happy with a "training bond" situation that would have you paying off the training costs over a period of time, in exchange for a "cost of living increase" after????.....than fight for that, and EVERYONE will support you, but continue down this emotive, and ill thought out "discrimination" road, and you will NOT get the support from your peers, the public, nor the courts...cause you made a choice.

History has shown us too many times that rightly or wrongly, the "package" offered to all the Crew DOES come from a Budget, and in my time in CX I have NEVER seen a situation where the "bottom" packages move towards the "Top"....its always the other way around. Always!

So you'll have to forgive those of us who have made calculated choices, based on the conditions on offer at the time, from trying to protect the "hill" that we are currently standing on!
The current move threatens to knock down the hill, and then....what have we actually achieved

You had a choice....I can use my HKID card now, or wait, and then use my Canadian passport...and you made your choice!

You cant have it both ways...

As for the ones who have had the contract changed after the fact, by virtue of their having a HKID Card??? I have personally never run across anyone in this situation, but ill take your word for it. That sounds like a fight worth fighting, and one that will garner support from all sides, including the public and the Courts.

Your arguement however????

Sorry Mate....suck it up, stop whinging ( and making a fool out of yourself and all the other CEP's/LEP's) and start trying to win the battles 1 by 1, and NOT the whole war in one fell swoop

And here come the well thought out retorts, full of constructive ideas and suggestions........;)

[geh065]

Frankly I am absolutely disgusted and appalled to have to call you guys my colleagues. When one group is trying to better their conditions, instead of support or even indifference because it affects you in no way, you lot go out of your way to purposely attack the will to improve contractual agreements!! I have never heard any CEP complain to me about expat conditions changing with new housing agreements over the years. They sit there quietly listening to expats complain about how they cannot afford to pay for their second yacht because selling their first one has been harder than they thought, or how their flat in Repulse Bay is costing more in renovations than they thought because the jacuzzi has to be craned up to the roof. Is it any surprise that finally they are sick of it?

So, instead of supporting them in their quest for improvements we attack them because they had a cushy way into an airline job? Can any of us honestly hand on heart say that we would not have jumped at the same opportunity? It is purely hypocritical to say that the CEPs are jealous of the superior lifestyle afforded by being an expat. Bitching about the way they have had their training paid for doesn't seem like jealousy to you? Yes they got some cheap training and therefore they must pay for that by being inferior pilots for the rest of their lives and retire to a lower standard of living than expats. Come on....

Perhaps when the housing deal for the expats is up for renewal the CEPs can go to the media with an attack of how we dare wish our conditions to be improved, afterall that would be totally fair and justified seeing the way we have acted on this public forum.

[Dragon69]

Good post TimsBits :ok:


you lot go out of your way to purposely attack the will to improve contractual agreements!

You obviously have not been reading any of the above posts...it wasn't even in your contract to begin with!!! So how can you call it an 'improvement'???

They sit there quietly listening to expats complain about how they cannot afford to pay for their second yacht because selling their first one has been harder than they thought, or how their flat in Repulse Bay is costing more in renovations than they thought because the jacuzzi has to be craned up to the roof.

hahaha...what a moronic statement. In case you hadn't noticed we are all on the same payscale, I wish I had two yachts :{:{:{ . Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh!!! So next time I hear a CEP complain about how his Audi or BMW broke down, I should be up in arms then :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

the point


F!!!k me! As has been posted before numerous times before, please discuss this on the AOA site.


Mmmmm..no, let's discuss it HERE..

The AOA forums are for a few pathetic clowns who are trying to justify their monthly subs by posting "intelligent" posts on those forums, only to be given an answer by a fellow "more intelligent" pilot.

And yes, been there, done that..:zzz:

[Mullah Lite]

So what the basic premise of the ineligibility discussion is:

I had to go through hell and highwater, therefore you have to as well before I consider you worthy of what I get, regardless of whether or not we do the same job.

Don't ask me to help you climb the same mountain. Get your own carabiners, your own bungees. See you at the top suckas.

Nice guys.....nice.

[raven11]

I, like the public, and I’m sure most of our flight crew, support the CEP’s in their quest.

However, CEP’s not receiving housing assistance is not discrimination, it is cost cutting by the Company. Pure and simple. The Company is in the business of making money; can anyone argue that they’re not good at it? The Company will always look for ways to maximize their profit….unless it hurts them in the eyes of the Hong Kong public.

Good Post Timbit, some sound points. However, after reading your post, I still feel in my heart that the CEP’s have a valid case to make. I also feel the public would agree. Given the DFO’s quick response….I take it he agrees as well.

The Company cannot ignore public perception. And the public, not to put too fine a point on it, would stand squarely behind the CEP’s.

I don’t agree with the DFO’s argument that if housing were to be paid to the CEP’s then all other staff could argue for it as well. If other staff members want pilot benefits, then let them become pilots…as many are choosing to do. If pilots on a base want housing allowance….well then, they should never have left Hong Kong. If you were recruited on a base and you want housing assistance…move to Hong Kong. Based pilots can’t have it both ways.

We all used to be on one package, the pilot package, and we all need to work on restoring that one package. The cost of living, of which the major component is housing, in Hong Kong is prohibitive. Cadet pilots, after a period of paying back their training costs, should be on the same pay packet as the rest of us. That is only fair, and that is exactly how the public would see it. Hong Kong based CEP's should get housing assistance.

Dragon…..why must you resort to sarcasm and ridicule when making your arguments. It only serves to discredit you. You come across as a bully. Some of the points you make are sound, but your personal attacks personally turn me off. Stop it.

The CEP’s should be able to count on all of our support. Maybe they’re making too strong a point by arguing discrimination, but shouldn’t we, especially us senior crew, try to guide and help steer them straight?

This is one battle they are poised to win!

[TimsBits]

So what the basic premise of the ineligibility discussion is:

I had to go through hell and highwater, therefore you have to as well before I consider you worthy of what I get, regardless of whether or not we do the same job.

Don't ask me to help you climb the same mountain. Get your own carabiners, your own bungees. See you at the top suckas.Mullah....

To follow on from what 69 said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story...."
What we are saying is NOT "screw the CEP's cause I had to go through Hell to get here...." so stop sensationalizing...

What we are saying is that Housing was never part of the contract that they signed, so therefor it is a useless arguement, legally and otherwise!!!!

Call it "Lifestyle Improvement", call it "Benefits Enhancement"...call it whatever you like, but to be pleading to me, the Company, the Courts, and John Q Public, that " I am hard done by cause Bobby gets something that I now want, even though I knew that I was never entitled to it IN THE CONTRACT THAT I ACCEPTED", is both futile, and possibly harmful to the whole Pilot body!!!

Nobody is saying that we don't want to see the CEP's get some sort of compensation for housing....NOBODY!!!!

Simply have the AOA re-think the way that they are selling this thing, and you might stand a chance....with the current tactic=NADA!!!

I will not, however, be made to feel guilty for accepting a contact that was based on Market Value at the time, which included housing, for experienced expat applicants, so get :mad:!!!!

[Dragon69]

Mullah Lite,

This is being seen as a cheap unsolicited attack on the expat community by the CEPs. Crap comments such as "we should put all the expats at the Gold Coast..." or "owns two yachts..." , etc, proves the above point. The AoA started something and for obvious reasons every CEP has jumped on the bandwagon without giving any thought to the consequences. What of those CEPs that earn 'A' scale??? Do you hear any 'B' scale expats berate them??? What of those on bases having to pay 35-45% income tax, should their salary be adjusted accordingly because your take home pay is significantly more??? As I've said right from the start, this is amounting to nothing more than envy, and the expats have been made an easy target, so pardon us if we don't have any sympathy to what is being seen as an unreasonable demand.

Just wanted to add;

Instead of wanting the expat benefits to close the gap, why not fight for what the 'A' scale CEP CNs have..ie 'A" scale with $24k special allowance. As a CEP, wouldn't you have more of discriminatory case if you compared yourself with another CEP on better conditions???

[Mullah Lite]

Timbits

As long as I get ****ed by my significant other, good times. By you, not so much. And my post wasn't directed at you accepting your contract. In fact, none of the CEP arguments are about targeting the expat contracts at all. That remark is insidiously being raised by the DFO himself....get with the program. There's no need to fly off the handle especially when the premise of your handle is incorrect perception of what I was trying to put forward, nobody is trying to make you feel guilty for signing up to anything. And there are points that you made in your less expletively suffixed post that I agree with, particularly that part about "Now, once we have made those choices, that is not to say that we don't want to protect what we have, and strive for better, but we have to do so wisely, and within reason." So that to me is an acceptance that the CEPs have a right to fight for better conditions, but understandably you are concerned about the potential consequences to yourself and as I've said before, if it's truly a concern, raise it with the AOA, because in all honestly the last thing the CEPs want to do is piss you off to the point where you actually take the company's stance.

"Would I love to have been making A scale salaries, complete with travel funds etc all these years??? Of course I would, but I do not begrudge the guy next to me who has, because that was what was on offer for him."

CEPs are not begrudging anyone because of what people signed up for in the past...where does that come from?

69er

It's disconcerting to hear that the direction of the CEP argument is being taken as an attack on the expat community. I can say with all honestly that the central tenet of the CEP strategy is not an attack on any of the other pilots, but you do raise a legitimate concern by definition of perception and so this consideration must be incorporated into the debate. As I've said before, it is not the intention of the CEPs (certainly not mine!), it would not only serve no purpose but be a two step backwards solution by increasing the already too apparent divide between CEPs and expat notions. Though I still cannot agree with you on the envy part, I still personally feel it is about bringing local T&Cs to a standard, but you and I have respectfully disagreed on this perception before, and there it shall remain till.

Not sure that the income tax argument really works. If you live where you live, you have to pay that tax, that being a geographical distinction. Actually my family get taxed by two different countries at the moment....but I'm not asking for an increase in pay to cover those costs because I'm back here in HKG.

Your suggestion about the A scale with allowance is interesting, but delicate. If CEPs are entitled to the A scale which is a basic payscale, then by the same token so should everyone else. That would be nice, but that would truly open up an already widening Pandora's box from the company's standpoint, and as such, would be flatly turned down as a possible alternative to the gap closing solution. Still open to ideas though, of course.

[geh065]

In case you hadn't noticed we are all on the same payscale,

That depends very much on how you look at it. You are getting into terms and definitions of words in the dictionary. Definitely management material there! The CEPs have argued about their income package. They do not really care what the company call it or how they receive it but at the end of the day it allows for two different standards of living; one for expats and one for locally employed pilots. So call it housing, special allowance, localisation benefits etc, and give it via cash, paying a mortgage, stock options etc... they don't really care.

What of those CEPs that earn 'A' scale??? Do you hear any 'B' scale expats berate them???

Actually yes, all the time I hear B scalers berating the A scale. Not the individuals as such but just the circumstances that have allowed there to be an A and a B scale. If you have spent any time on a Cathay flight deck especially through times of industrial turbulence then you will know exactly what I mean, unless of course you are one of those worrying about your two yachts.

and the expats have been made an easy target, so pardon us if we don't have any sympathy to what is being seen as an unreasonable demand.

Once again this is what I do not understand. Expats are not being made a target of anything. No-one is trying to take anything away from expats. The locals are trying to narrow the gap by bringing their standards towards yours. If you cannot stand the thought that they had their training paid for by the company and are able to earn a package closer to an expats then to me that is pure envy no two ways about it. You can't stand the thought that there are some pilots out there who might grasp the opportunity to make their lives better for themselves.

The argument that the company has trained these people from scratch and therefore indebted to this wonderful company for life is absolute rubbish. How are expats any different? It is claimed that locals are given a wonderful opportunity and that is absolutely correct, but how about expats? They are not given a wonderful opportunity? Most people joining these days build their hours flying pieces of crap in countries with few opportunities for quick access to jet airliners (nevermind widebodies). By your own admission it has been tough with a low income. So, along comes this company who is willing to employ you as a foreigner, pay you an expat package, send your kids to good schools, pay for a mortgage to a property which can make you millions when you leave Hong Kong and somehow you are not grateful for this great opportunity? They allow you to fly shiny jets and have a decent life instead of not even being able to afford gas for your car, or your electricity bill but somehow this same company which has given an opportunity to a different group of people would be wrong for rewarding those people with a bit more than they receive even though it is still miles away from what expats receive? Can you pull your head out of your bottom for long enough to see?

[Mullah Lite]

geh065

thank you...and I hope my appreciation does not earn you a verbal bashing from the others.

[firefly2008]

When you joined you knew you were not getting housing allowance and that you would never get housing allowance - yet you still joined CX = so you do not have a leg to stand on.

As a similar example - those that joined without receiving a "travel fund" still joined CX. I rarely hear any complaints about the lack of travel fund and I have NEVER heard the AOA try to get a travel fund for those who do not receive this remuneration.

The AOA should be fighting for a general "salary increase", and not for an allowance for a small segment who knew what they were getting into when they joined.

[katana]

some of the comments on this board are utterly disgraceful. I suspect there are those who have always rather liked the fact that there is another group of pilots who are on considerably worse terms - perhaps it makes them feel superior in some way. Pathetic.

Pilots who live and work in Hong Kong should be paid Hong Kong allowances.

Once a CEP has completed his apprenticeship, paid off the training cost and is QL, it is his LICENCE that has the value. How that LICENCE came to be acquired is irrelevant.

[geh065]

Absolutely Katana. At the end of the day, all the company wants is for someone to fly their planes from A to B at the required standard. Lets not talk about who is better than who after all we all just fly a plane from A to B. CEPs, expats who cares. We all operate to the required standard otherwise we would not be here. End of story.

[AAIGUY]

I can't believe how ignorant some of you are.

As Expats, we want our local colleagues to GET everything we have
If they cost the same as we do, then our place is secure.. IF we let this new class C cadet system go forward, with no housing / CEP for expat cadets, and keep the locals out of the benefits, WE ALL LOSE.

Swire loves divide and conquer.

One Base, One pay package. Simple.

Don't let them win.

[Dixi Normus]

Why is the idea of equality creating such a divide? For every base there should be one re-numeration package. This means the take home pay, or taxable income, is the same for everyone doing the same job. Taxable income is whatever financial reward given to you by the company. This is the sum of salary plus whatever allowance and bonus.

Are the expats so dispise of the CEPs that they don’t want to be seen as equal to them? If IlovePX had his/her way, all CEPs have to seat at the back of the crew bus and walk behind the expats.

A “local” captain getting a lower re-numeration package than a junior expat F/O is simply wrong. Even Stevie Wonder can see the in-justice in that and so will the public. You think BA or QF cadets have to put with same double standards throughout their careers?

[CXChildLabour]

As has been posted before numerous times before, please discuss this on the AOA site. That is if you have access.
If not maybe you should think about applying for it.

Oh yeah, that's right, let me go there and reply to those who bashes the CEP's around for their fight for better conditions on the AOA forum. Wait, why isn't anyone there posting anything with their real names? Strange eh? FYI, I do have access and got it long before the mass CEP joining.

In reality, you would have to pay back the cost of training and quit your job, and then hope to be rehired by a good enough airline after spending probably several years struggling. It's easy to just say you would pay back your training cost but keep the job!

Hmm, ok, how about DEFO's having to re-apply for theirs if they wanna move back to HKG??? They were hired on the base, signed a local term contract with an onshore basing company and would have to quit their job on the base "in theory" anyway to come to HKG and get expat packages. I don't see anyone bashing these local term guys when they were offered a shortcut and expat terms after certain years of services.

On another note, the latest DFO update does mention talks regarding a little allowance for LEPs upon reaching FO.

The LPF requested this "special allowance" 2 years back when the KA locals got it after a successful fight by the DPA, who FULLY SUPPORT THEIR LOCALS FOR THEIR RIGHTS TO IMPROVE THEIR CONDITIONS AND DIDN'T COST THEIR EXPAT COUNTERPARTS ANYTHING. The answer by NR at the time was something along the lines of "What you got, KA doesn't have to get; what KA got, you don't have to get". Basically they were happy to remain status quo until the recent SLS uprising by the CEP and NR starting to wet his pants. How ironic was it that NR desperately called up LPF and INSISTED on a non-scheduled meeting to announce the "local" education allowance the day that 200 CEP's joined AOA. Nope, they were gonna do it all along and it was a total coincidence that it happened on the same day when CEP decided to finally stand up for themselves and do something about it. And now out of nowhere he made it public that he "intends" to offer the 12k to CEP in the next housing meeting? You be your own spin doctor judge. And mind you, this 12k only applies to FO, there's ABSOLUTELY NO IMPROVEMENT FOR CN.

[CXChildLabour]

firefly2008,

When you joined you knew you were not getting housing allowance and that you would never get housing allowance - yet you still joined CX = so you do not have a leg to stand on.

When you joined you knew what your mouthly salary, the amount of housing allowance, your retirement age, your p-fund contribution and that you should NEVER EVER want any increase or improvement in any areas of your condition - yet you still joined CX = so you do not have a leg to stand on next time you ask the AOA to negotiate with the company for a better deal.

[Mullah Lite]

<puts face in hands>

and here it comes...........

[turnandburn]

Correct me if I am wrong but there are both still expats and locals on A scale so why is not anyone just demanding that?Surely you should ask for the most you can get as the whole time I have been here we only seem to get less. If you are going to play the discrimination card play the whole hand all in. Not only that go for the original A scale not the 30% off one that exists now.

Old A scale
25 years housing for everyone
medical
education
travel fund
Inflation Adjusted annually
All NORMALLY words removed from all agreements
All bypass pay honored
PX/PT sorted

Same team same dream ......no just faaaarcking dreaming

[CXChildLabour]

Could someone gimme a figure in terms of how many A-scale expats signed over to COS08 and virtually signing onto B scale? or as a matter of fact, how many actually didn't, that should be a small number to work with.

[iceman50]

ENVY:rolleyes:

The housing allowance I receive and pay tax on, does NOT go into my pocket but that of a "Local" Landlord!

My children do not speak cantonese and would NOT have been accepted at a local school, EVEN though I pay HK taxes. The education allowance that I receive and pay tax on does NOT go into my pocket but the coffers of the ESF.

I am not on A scale, do not receive a travel fund and my FOC was "supposed" to allow me to return to my HOME country, not go on "Holiday".

We would all like more money, but you cannot change your contract just because of envy. CEP / LEP get exactly the same pay scale as their peers, be they A, B or C scale so there is NO discrimination.

Unfortunately I think the AOA and the GC if they have approved this line of action have lost the plot!:ugh:

[TimsBits]

When you joined you knew what your mouthly salary, the amount of housing allowance, your retirement age, your p-fund contribution and that you should NEVER EVER want any increase or improvement in any areas of your condition - yet you still joined CX = so you do not have a leg to stand on next time you ask the AOA to negotiate with the company for a better deal.

I hate to be the one to break it to you ChildLabour, but you have inadvertently shot your arguement down in your own post, because whilst we all have monthly salary, retirement age, p-fund contributions in our contracts, only Expats( rightly or wrongly) have housing allowance written into theirs, and unfair as that may seem to you now, it is a fact, and one that was ( or should have been) obvious to you when you signed yours....

Now, having said that....none of us like to see the specifics of the above list of contractual items change ( unless they are an improvement of course) and all of us will agree that we want to defend the contacts that we signed with vigor, but from a legal stand point, it is going to be hard to have a defense that is basically " I know what I signed up for, but now I want it changed" Can you not see that???

How is it any different to me ( as a B scaler) going into the AOA tomorrow and saying...."you know what guys...I know I joined on B scale, but I now feel (14 years later) discriminated against because there are plenty of people doing the same job on A scale salary and benefits. So I would now like the union to fully support my discrimination suit against the company for this unfair treatment"
What do you suppose the response would be???
Really....How is it any different???

Mullah thinks that it would be opening up a Pandoras Box to suggest that the AOA use the A Scale Local Captains $24000/ mo housing assistance as a "fairness meter", and he assures us that it would be unilaterally rejected by the Company....Why would that be an unreasonable yard stick as a means of comparison, but the Expat Housing Allowance isn't???

I know that this "discrimination" accusation made by the AOA has not been launched in a deliberate attempt to attack the Expat Housing Assistance, nor do I feel that most of the CEP's would want that message being sent out as their agenda....however, when you read headlines in the newspaper that read "LOCAL PILOTS FLYING OFF THE HANDLE AT EXPAT PERKS" that is exactly the message that is being sent out!

What I am saying, is that in any negotiation, success, or the lack of it, can be decided before the two parties even enter the room. Its called perception and salesmanship...a lot depends on how you "sell" something to the other side, and how you are being perceived to be conducting yourself before, during, and after the negotiation can have a dramatic impact on the results.

The AOA is selling this thing COMPLETELY the wrong way!!! They need to be trying to get the best deal for the CEP's / LEP's , and in doing so, not risk undermining the conditions of the rest of the pilot body. In this poorly thought out "preemptive strike", well ahead of talks that were to be held to discuss the conditions of ALL aircrew, they are already building a wall between any negotiating teams, before they even take their seats.

As much as it may take the "wind out of your sails", in all my years of flying here, I have NEVER heard anyone on a Flight Deck, or in a Bar, suggest that they would like to see another "demographic" suffer on lower conditions....and that is NOT what is happening now. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't be striving for something better, far from it...what we are saying is that there are better ways of achieving your aims than by throwing your toys out of the cot and saying " I want what he or she has , or else" I hate to break it to you, but that sh*t doensn't work around here...it always has the opposite effect.

You need to be instructing the AOA that you would like to keep things positive, civil and respectful leading into the Housing Negotiations, while reminding the company of the DPA's successful negotiation with DA for housing assistance for ALL Crew, .....Respectfully highlighting the CEP's support for SLS and help during SARS etc, while emphasizing what you feel are the inequities of conditions between various groups within the CX ranks... Remind the Company that it is not fair to essentially be "bonded" for life re: training costs, while showing your professionalism as a mature , competent faction within the Aircrew Body. To scupper the talks before they even start (and that is the potential end result of what the newspaper headlines are currently stating) is not exactly first rate negotiating tactics. And before you say it...we all know that the newspapers take liberties...but the union does have a certain amount of control over what the headlines say.

I don't begrudge the A scaler for signing up for his "fancy package", nor do I think anyone should begrudge me my Housing Assistance, and I know most don't, but your "two Yachts in the Gold Coast" rhetoric towards the people who simply accepted the terms of a contract that was based on the market value for EXPERIENCED pilots from overseas, doesn't exactly sell me on your "We are not attacking the Expats" pitch. I say experienced, because whether you like it or not, the fact that we had experience was the difference in the Contract that was on offer.

We ALL want better conditions of service, for ALL. Nobody is trying to prevent another from getting a better deal, but the current "push" from the AOA not only jeopardizes your chances of getting what you are after, it has the potential to undermine ALL that has been fought for in the past

[TGIG]

Just exactly what am I meant to be envious about? You seem like quite a miserable fellow

[BusyB]

I have to say I feel nothing but contempt for those opposing any improvement in CEP's allowances.

I have not heard of ANYbody refusing an increase in any of the allowances we get.

Hypocrisy rules here:ugh:

[CXChildLabour]

iceman50,

The housing allowance I receive and pay tax on, does NOT go into my pocket but that of a "Local" Landlord!

Whose fault is it if you decide u wanna rent instead of buying with ur allowance? You might as well tell me that the salary you receive and pay tax on does not go into your pocket but your wife's. :rolleyes: And what does your "Local" Landlord has anything to do with this? Sorry to report but we don't have a wealth sharing scheme amongst all local Hongers here. Or are you trying to tell us that your "Local" Landlord is a CEP and convince us that he's getting expat housing allowance through you? :confused:

My children do not speak cantonese and would NOT have been accepted at a local school, EVEN though I pay HK taxes.

Of course all children of CEP's speak fluent Cantonese. :ugh: Get with the program before you try to argue next time dude.

I am not on A scale, do not receive a travel fund and my FOC was "supposed" to allow me to return to my HOME country, not go on "Holiday".

And I tried to return to my HOME country last time and got offloaded three flights in a row with my priority 11 confirmed FOC in ECONOMY, and I wasn't going on "Holiday", your point?

We would all like more money, but you cannot change your contract just because of envy.

So please don't change your contract to COS08 or else you're really just slapping yourself right in the face with humiliation. Cause the whole RA65 thing is PURELY being ENVIOUS of pilots being able to work till 65 elsewhere in the world. Everyone was happily signing onto RA55 when they joined and all of a sudden they see pilots around the world are getting RA65, then they became ENVIOUS of them and wanted it in their contract as well. Wait, I'm feeling something, what is it? OH, DEJAVU!!!!!!!

Unfortunately I think the AOA and the GC if they have approved this line of action have lost the plot!

Yes, just like they did allowing DEFO's and RA65 into our COS.

[katana]

Hong Kong based pilots should receive Hong Kong Base salary and allowances.

It's what your licence is worth.

[gofor]

For the LEP. If you want expat package I believe emirates and Korean are hiring...go on, after all CX is 25% overstaffed apparently...like they say , be3 carefull what you wish for!

[CXChildLabour]

gofor,

Emirates and Korean are hiring if you want an extra 10 years of housing allowance and a later retirement age. How's that? You like?

[iLuvPX]

Let the Air Chinafication of CX begin. Its a race to the bottom now.

Not one spineless cadet said a word to management when they signed up for the job. CX showed them the entire payscale and allowances they would receive for the duration of their careers, and not one of them brought up a grievance...but the HK GREED has kicked in and now they want what they arent entitled to.

What the AOA have done is polarizing, and im taking sides, and so should the rest of you. All this cadet whinging will inevitably bring DOWN everyone else's conditions. Im not going to sit by and let some greedy ENVIOUS cadet take away from my housing allowance, something they agreed they would never get but now want. So pick a side and be heard..your conditions may depend on it.

I'd be happy to support a basic salary rise for the CEPs, but getting expat housing is ridiculous. The equality argument is nonsense also, most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots, thats why the overwhelming majority of CX pilots are from around the world and not HK/China. Some of you mistake that a racism but its purely from observation, I just have the balls to say it here. Its the same thing repeated at bars, on the flight deck, in lounges, management meetings, everyone knows it except the cadets apparently...

[CXChildLabour]

most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots, thats why the overwhelming majority of CX pilots are from around the world and not HK/China. Some of you mistake that a racism but its purely from observation, I just have the balls to say it here. Its the same thing repeated at bars, on the flight deck, in lounges, management meetings, everyone knows it except the cadets apparently...

You might have the balls to say it here, do you have to balls to say it right in CEP's faces? Especially those who has proven themselves and approved by the company that they're worthy of training and checking your so-called better quality expat pilots. I could tell you I heard the exact same thing about DEFO's, DEC's, DESO's, and even T&C's at bars, on the flight deck, in lounges, management meetings, and everyone knows it except for those concerned apparently. I can tell you straight up that I'm an average pilot at best but if I had to take control from my expat partner in sims because they were flipping the a/c during V1 cut or busting cleared altitutdes or doing unstable approaches and still not going around, I really would like to know what you would consider as "better quality pilots". Maybe instead of the CEP's getting any sort of improvement, we should strip those who perform worse than CEP's from their housing if your theory is correct.

[christn]

I understand that after years of apathy there has recently been a large increase in the number of LEPs joining the AOA. Surely a coincidence?

[CXChildLabour]

I understand that after years of apathy there has recently been a large increase in the number of LEPs joining the AOA. Surely a coincidence?

After years of complaining the LEP's not joining the AOA and deeming us as not supportive of the pilot body, you're complaining that we did join now? I'm SURE none of the non-CEP AOA members remained apathy for years and recently joined after the AOA changed president and started to actually get something done. Mind reminding me what was the percentage of members in 2007?

I can tell you I joined shortly after PW became president for the following reason. While ST was still pres he asked during a flight if I was an AOA member, I asked him what the AOA could do for the LEP's. Reply was "we only have certain amount of resources and a lot of priority issues above the LEP's". Yeah, become a part of the pilot body so we could take your money and help out our own issues, though don't come to us if you want our support in yours. Thanks but no thanks. Whereas now AOA actually promised to be just as supportive to the CEP's and thus we're no longer hestitant in supporting the whole pilot body, including our expat counterparts, and you're b:mad:ching about us joining? Get a life, make up your mind and shut up.

[Flap10]

You say,

While ST was still pres he asked during a flight if I was an AOA member, I asked him what the AOA could do for the LEP's. Reply was "we only have certain amount of resources and a lot of priority issues above the LEP's"......Thanks but no thanks

followed by,

Whereas now AOA actually promised to be just as supportive to the CEP's and thus we're no longer hestitant in supporting the whole pilot body, including our expat counterparts,

So the only issue you care about seems to be the "expat benefits" for Locally Employed Pilots and hence your reason for not previously joining the AoA. Now that they have dangled the carrot in front of you, you want to support the whole pilot body,,,,that is mighty fine of you, but what if your fight is unsuccessful, will you resign and not care about other important issues that affect the whole pilot body, such as rostering, etc...????

Right from the start you have come across as a spoiled little CBC brat, my perception hasn't changed at all.

[cxorcist]

"Forward together, backwards apart."

"No I in TEAM!"

"I got mine, go find yours elsewhere."

You guys are pathetic. You don't deserve any better than steadily degrading conditions. A, B, F (ASL) scale. When will you learn? Looking like never...

[iceman50]

CXChildLabour

You are a spoiled little boy aren't you and I am not a dude or your mate! When I joined "dude" there were NO 95% plus cash back mortgages around, you had to upfront 30% in hard cash. So there were many reasons for NOT buying and your answer shows your reasons for wanting a housing allowance - envy!

You know what your contract entailed when you joined, live with it and stop whining like a baby or tell you what your your vast experience and licence and get an "expat" job somewhere else!

[geh065]

Not one spineless cadet said a word to management when they signed up for the job.

Thats just plain insulting and you are making this issue personal. It has never been CEPs against Expats, why do you have to make it so? Once again, what are expats scared of? Losing something you currently receive? None of this is about taking anything away from the expat package. Get that into your brain.

most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots,

In terms of what? Each and every Cathay pilot is required to pass sims and checks done at the Cathay standard. If you do not pass, then you leave the company. it is as simple as that. Expats are these days employed because a position cannot be filled locally. With the start of this international cadet scheme the days of the expat could well be numbered, simply because they do not have to employ them. Don't be big headed enough to think that expats were employed because they measure up better. We are all just a bum in a seat to fly the plane from A to B. Having 1500hrs in a Metro does not make one a better pilot that a CEP, especially after years of flying a widebody around the CX network.

There is a lot of talk of the CEPs arguing the correct way, well I am afraid the expat arguements on here are not exactly impressive either.

[cxlinedriver]

Funny how the HKAOA has only taken an active interest in Cadet Pilot housing allowances now that non-HKG (ie non-Chinese) people can become Cadets.

[betpump5]

IluvPX,

are you trying to win the award for the most inuslting comments? You absolutely disgust me. Has a cadet wronged you in a previous life?

Are you telling me that at no point in your 50 year career did you ever ask for or fight for better T&Cs to the ones you "signed up for" at the interview? Give me a break.

most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots, thats why the overwhelming majority of CX pilots are from around the world and not HK/China

We all suffer sh!t from time to time but remain professional. However with a comment like that, I find it really difficult. So here it is:

:mad: off

[KABOY]

I tried to return to my HOME country last time and got offloaded three flights in a row with my priority 11 confirmed FOC in ECONOMY, and I wasn't going on "Holiday", your point?


CXChildlabour if you dislike this contract you have the opportunity to look at other prospects. Why did you choose to come to HKG on a LEP contract?

Was the prospect of paid training and near certain employment a lure you could not refuse? Now you are not satisfied, is it because the opportunities in your home country are still not as good?

A contract is a contract, resign and then request a new employment contract as your current one will not expire anytime soon!

I would like a car in my contract, but my current one does not allow for it. When my contract expires I will ask for one, but until then I have buckley's chance of getting one.

[CXdiscriminates]

Cathay Pacific portrays itselfs as a Hong Kong airline. It earns it's money from Hong Kong, it exploits Hong Kong.

Hong Kong citizens are entitled to well paid jobs just as much as anyone else.

As a Hong Kong pilot with 5000 odd hours and 1500 hours heavy jet command, I was discriminated by CX by being offered local terms.

Cathay Pacific cannot attract experienced Local Pilots because it refuses to pay the Market Salary. Right now Cathay Pacific is recruiting cadets from overseas citing it cannot find qualified individuals. It's because:

a). They are not offering enough money;

b). They wish to dilute the whole discrimination argument because right now it is very obvious that they are discriminating against Hong Kong citizens;

c). Lower terms and conditions.

Remember not to long ago the Cathay Pacific Group held a monopoly in Hong Kong, by owning CX and KA. To fly for KA/CX, an experience Hong Kong pilot had no choice other than to accept inferior terms and conditions.

Cathay Pacific has no real desire in recruiting Hong Kong pilots:

1. it is giving away cadet jobs to foreigners when it should be recruiting from Hong Kong;

2. it refuses entice experienced Hong Kong pilots; and

3. They have publically stated they would rather hire Expats then to properly remunerate Hong Kong pilots.

[dpamember]

The general consensus amongst the two pilot groups within the Cathay Pacific Group supports the Local/Cadet Entry Pilots and their pursuit for better conditions.

The 'Locals' are entiltled to their jobs with CX/KA just as much as we are, we not more. They should be properly remunerated as such.

Quote (Cathay Pacific statement)


Employment Policy

Cathay Pacific is a fair employer in strict compliance with anti-discrimination regulations. Pilots are recruited into Hong Kong as locally employed or expatriate pilots on the basis of their experience. All locally employed pilots are treated exactly the same as expatriate pilots in terms of career progression and promotion opportunities.

They also enjoy the same salary and benefits as expatriate pilots in Hong Kong including pension fund payments, medical care, education allowances for children attending international schools and kindergartens in Hong Kong, staff travel etc


This is an INCORRECT statement for Cathay Pacific Group local pilots flying for Dragonair.

Local pilots in Dragonair do not receive the same pension payments, leave days and do not receive any educational allowances.

We need to support the Locals and improve the baseline package as this is would create less downward pressure on the Expatriate Package.

[CXChildLabour]

So the only issue you care about seems to be the "expat benefits" for Locally Employed Pilots and hence your reason for not previously joining the AoA.

So according to Flap10, the AOA has started this fight about 2 years ago? You guys might be a bit slow in reacting in that case aren't you?

You are a spoiled little boy aren't you and I am not a dude or your mate! When I joined "dude" there were NO 95% plus cash back mortgages around, you had to upfront 30% in hard cash. So there were many reasons for NOT buying and your answer shows your reasons for wanting a housing allowance - envy!

Oh boo hoo :{, is it my queue to take out my violin? If CEP's could save up enough money with their salary for a down payment without any housing allowance and you telling me you can't, whose fault is it again? Please don't put your incapability in organizing your own financial situation properly on someone else's shoulder and make it a reason for others not to get any improvements. We all pay the same price for rent/mortgages for the same house, if you can't fork out 30% in hard cash with the extra dough you're making then how would you expect CEP's to do that? Sounds like you're the spoiled little boy more than me DUDE.

[firefly2008]

CXChildLabour

Quote:-
When you joined you knew what your mouthly salary, the amount of housing allowance, your retirement age, your p-fund contribution and that you should NEVER EVER want any increase or improvement in any areas of your condition - yet you still joined CX = so you do not have a leg to stand on next time you ask the AOA to negotiate with the company for a better deal.

Re your post above:-
I would be extremely happy if I had all of the above contractural items that were given to me when I joined CX. The truth of the matter is that the only item there that has not been degraded is the P fund. All others have been degraded (that means reduced) by the Company. So please do not preach to me about the AOA and better deals.

[Steve the Pirate]

I can see it now..

From The South China Daily Standard

All not well with HK Flag Carrier

Having secured the “Best Red in Business on grey, white and green aircraft based in Hong Kong” award from the Airborne Knitting Club magazine, it would appear that all is not well at Cathay Pacific. Known for long-running disputes with its staff, but particularly its pilots, this time the dispute appears to be between locally employed and expatriate aircrew.

A thread on a popular aircrew forum, PPruNe (Professional Pilots Rumour Network) has highlighted a deep rift between factions of crews; the locally employed pilots striving to be paid expatriate perks and expatriate pilots saying that they’re not entitled to them. What started as a debate quickly degenerated into a bile-filled rant, with posters such as “CXChildLabour” and “iLuvPX”, slugging it out in public for all to see. Mud-slinging, name calling, nyeh, nyeh, nyeh, nyeh nyeh retaliations, CAPITALISATION - the list goes on.

A spokesman for the company was asked how this was all being received in Cathay City, the headquarters of Cathay Pacific. “Obviously we’re delighted that this is all going on as we can now gauge how united the HKAOA really is in this matter. We were somewhat concerned by the recent recruitment by the HKAOA of a significant number of our locally employed pilots but this latest episode has shown that the move was purely cosmetic and, clearly, we have nothing to worry about.”

“When I was studying for my PhD in industrial relations at Harvard, my thesis was entitled, “The Internet as an Industrial Tool - how to exploit workforce divisions”. It was fascinating to see how a well-timed, anonymous post on a bulletin board could draw scathing attacks from workers without even knowing who they were ranting against - not only was it illuminating, it was really quite amusing. So far, this has been without doubt the most amusing. This is one of the more powerful tools that management has to understand the psyche of its workforce and the best thing is, it's free. It’s obvious that these posters have no concept of the damage that they are doing, not only to their cause but to their Association and their profession. I’m not entirely sure that some of them qualify to post on a forum that has the word “Professional” in its title”.

The debate(?) continues.

STP

[Mullah Lite]

CXChildLabour

Self imposed prejudice and bias wlll always allow those few to cultivate a blind and hardened heart. A hardened heart dulls a person's ability to believe or understand another's point of view. So maybe the only thing that we can do is convince by example, whether or not we get their support. Sadly.

Timsbits:

I've just realised I've been calling you Timbits. Sorry. Anyhowz:

"Mullah thinks that it would be opening up a Pandoras Box to suggest that the AOA use the A Scale Local Captains $24000/ mo housing assistance as a "fairness meter", and he assures us that it would be unilaterally rejected by the Company....Why would that be an unreasonable yard stick as a means of comparison, but the Expat Housing Allowance isn't???"

As I've mentioned before, you are talking about the basic payscale, an entitlement across the board to all 2500....no matter which basing you take up. This is a separate issue to base parity, which is what we are advocating, though also not something that we wouldn't help the greater pilot body pursue if they felt it was worth fighting for.

[CXChildLabour]

Mullar Lite,

What really sadden me is the fact that after spending majority of my life overseas, this is the first time EVER to experience racisim in full force, and what's worse is that it's from the so-called "professionals" whom I have to work with on a daily basis, smiling and actiing in person but go on bashing about how Asians can't do the job properly. These people have the balls to say it on an online forum but yet put on a mask when we meet in person, to me that's nothing more than a queer hiding in the closet and worries the general public find out one day.

[TimsBits]

As I've mentioned before, you are talking about the basic payscale, an entitlement across the board to all 2500....no matter which basing you take up. This is a separate issue to base parity, which is what we are advocating, though also not something that we wouldn't help the greater pilot body pursue if they felt it was worth fighting for.

Mullah....don't sweat the mis-handling of my handle,

Do , however, re read the paragraph....what I was trying to suggest, is (like 69 eluded to) it might be a more "sellable" idea to compare the CEP's lack of housing assistance to the A scale Locally Employed Captains $24000/mo Housing Assistance...

IE: They have it, and they are locally employed...why don't we?

This has NOTHING to do with Salary, as you suggest, and it has EVERYTHING to do with Conditions of Service differences between Locally Employed Pilots on the SAME Base....HKG

Child Labour....

I really do hope for two things re: CEP Benefits

1) That somehow, against near impossible odds, the Union can see the error in how they are going about trying to win this battle for the CEP's, change their tactics, and reach some sort of mutually acceptable deal for the above,

2) That they wouldn't dream of using someone like you as their poster boy to try to reach said deal...

Petulant Child!!!!!

[Dragon69]

What really sadden me is the fact that after spending majority of my life overseas, this is the first time EVER to experience racisim in full force, and what's worse is that it's from the so-called "professionals" whom I have to work with on a daily basis, smiling and actiing in person but go on bashing about how Asians can't do the job properly. These people have the balls to say it on an online forum but yet put on a mask when we meet in person, to me that's nothing more than a queer hiding in the closet and worries the general public find out one day. Firstly, you are a genuine drama queen, just because people don't agree with what you think you are entitled to, you pull out the racism card...and please don't point out some of the comments made here by a select few.

Secondly, I too experience racism on a daily basis, and this from the local Hong Kong people, and if you think that many of the local Hong Kong Chinese aren't racist, well then you haven't lived here long enough. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Thirdly, if you display the attitude that you have displayed here on the flight deck, I can certainly tell you that no one is going to be hiding behind a mask, so maybe it is you that hides behind the queer mask at work

[CXChildLabour]

indeed i was only referring to a selected few, majority of the pilot body r great individuals n i'll be the first to admit that. however, even one of suh racist is too many in the workplace that relies on the support of every single crew. i welcome arguments if ppl could prove me wrong n would even admit it if i'm proven wrong.

[Liam Gallagher]

"....this is the first time EVER to experience racisim in full force, and what's worse is that it's from the so-called "professionals" whom I have to work with on a daily basis, smiling and actiing in person but go on bashing about how Asians can't do the job properly..."

A bit quick with the old race card me thinks. Jut because a small handful of anonymous posters, who may or may not be fellow CX pilots, "bravely" crayon what we all know to be drivel, you feel justified in declaring that we are all racists.

Have a good read of the words in red at the bottom of the page and have a think about who really has the issue with stereotypes and then go outside and have a word with yourself. Following that period of reflection you might see some benefits in using the edit button.

[Mullah Lite]

Because, Timsbits, where will we get the leverage to push for the A scale if the majority of the expats on B scale aren't pushing for the same?

As you said, this has everything to do with the CoS discrepancies between pilots on the same base, operative phrase 'same base', the only distinction that you and I make are you say it's between the local pilots and I'm saying it's between all pilots.

[TimsBits]

Because, Timsbits, where will we get the leverage to push for the A scale if the majority of the expats on B scale aren't pushing for the same?

Holy Sh*t Mullah....

For the last friggin time....WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A SCALE SALARY HERE!!!!!

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CEP'S USING THE FACT THAT THE A SCALE LOCALLY EMPLOYED PILOTS GET A

HOUSING ALLOWANCE

HOUSING ALLOWANCE

HOUSING ALLOWANCE, as leverage for you to try and get the same!!!!!

Locally Employed Captains........$24000/ mo Housing Allowance

IT HAS BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH THE SALARY THAT THEY ARE ON

OK Let me paint a Picture for You
THEY....LIKE YOU.....ARE LOCALLY EMPLOYED....are you with me so far??

THEY.....GET A HOUSING ALLOWANCE.....you following me????

WHY DON"T YOU?????

Patty Cake, Patty Cake, Bakers Man....... Bl**dy H**L

Just let me know when the Penny Drops Mullah
:ugh:

[CXChildLabour]

Having read my post again i probably should've been more specific as to who i was referring to. True that the person concerned might not even be an aircrew, i sure as heck hope he ain't, as a matter of fact could even be press or mgt. So yes i shouldn't have used the race card so vaguely n lightly. Like i said, majority of the ppl i flew with r great individuals, despite differences in opinion most doesn't let it affect the operation.

However, this doesn't mean I'm gonna stop fighting for i believe is right n fair until someone could prove me completely wrong. The whole u "signed a contract so not entitled to it" is an absolute load of bull. U r entitled to anything u fight for and won. Who in this company was entitled to RA65 when they signed their contract except for those new joiners who had no choice but COS08? And also who was entitled to 25 years housing instead of 15 when they signed? R u telling me u can't pay off ur mortgage w/ 15 yrs of housing? Is the place collapsing n u can't live in it for the rest of ur career? If not then to me that extra 10 years of allowance is purely greed n RA65 is envy, the exact same thing CEPs r being accused of w/ their quest. But am i saying they shouldn't make it their entitlement? NO! Everyone has his right to fight for a better deal, just not in the expense of others or try to prevent others to fight for theirs.

I've talked about both issues numerous times n yet everyone seems to conveniently avoided to defend what they apparently believe is their entitlement. Would ANYONE be able to step up n bat before the lights go out?

[Steve the Pirate]

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved with this discussion....

Before I start, I don't consider myself to be racist and I agree that everyone is entitled to strive for better pay and conditions.

TimsBits

You state in your post that A scale LEPs get housing allowance. I understood that it was only Captains who receive the allowance.

I'm not sure about this but could local Captains' housing allowance be anything to do with them being classified the same as Level D managers? I think this is the point at which locally employed managers start to receive housing allowance.

Before I go, I don't consider myself to be racist and I agree that everyone is entitled to strive for better pay and conditions.

STP

[Eyes only]

I believe the comments made before regarding the expat cabin crew were incorrect. As I understand it, they live in the Gold Coast for the first 12 months, then they as asked to leave the transition housing and receive a housing allowance to live where they wish (the ones that are being “trained” by CX for other airlines do not have that deal). Similar for cockpit crew, they get up to 6 months in the Headland to transition before being required to find their own accommodation.

I think all CNs get housing allowance in HKG, either the expat allowance or the 24k, regardless if the CN started as a CEP, DESO, DEFO, DEC (e.g. ex-Oasis), or extended on B scale on the freighter.

All pilots based outside of HKG are employed on local terms on that base, they do not receive housing or education allowances. This is entirely consistent with the crew who are employed with the home port being HKG, with the exception, the LEPs in HKG do not have to resign from Cathay Pacific to take up their base and now they also get an education allowance.

The SLS treatment of LEPs in HKG was exactly the same as those who are employed as LEP on bases other than HKG, with the exception, those crew that are employed as LEP on bases other than HKG are not generally eligible for any "ex-grata" or 13th month.

I did not understand the representation made by HKG LEPs to management about taking more than their fair share of SLS, nor do I understand this representation regarding housing allowance. Has this come to a head as a result of the advancement in KA ?

LEPs with a home port either in HKG or out of HKG are treated the same, if anything the ones based in HKG may get a little more with 13th month, profit share, and ex-gratia payments and now education allowances. The cost of living on bases outside of HKG is not cheaper than HKG when the after tax expendable income is compared to the cost of living.

While I am not against HKG based LEPs getting a better deal, the cadet entry LEP is not the only group of pilots employed on LEP terms either in HKG or out of HKG. The stereotype of LEPs only being HKG born of a similar ethnic background is far from reality.

I think the primary problem is that inflation has been going up, and the wages have not seen corresponding increases, it is a problem for all bases, all contracts, it has nothing to do with allowances.

[CXChildLabour]

69er,

i've already responded to my use of racial card earlier so not gonna do that again here. however, i can assure you that if anyone dare to make comments in front of me about CEP's not being worthy like some ppl claim in this forum, i won't be hesitant in confronting them w/ the same attitude i displayed here. there are things in life u must defend.

[water check]

...would someone PLEASE put this thread out of it's misery....!!!

[Mullah Lite]

Water Check

Only after I thank Timsbits for his omniscient patronage.

Timsbits

"Do , however, re read the paragraph....what I was trying to suggest, is (like 69 eluded to) it might be a more "sellable" idea to compare the CEP's lack of housing assistance to the A scale Locally Employed Captains $24000/mo Housing Assistance..."

Thank you for your enlightened position. Do forgive me for thinking you were making a distinction as you quoted above the local A scale captains as receiving the allowance and not mentioning the B scalers. It leaves me to bid you good night, and hope that gentlemanly adulthood will kick in one day, your enviable countenance notwithstanding.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

15 years ago I wanted to apply for the CX Cadet Training Programme, but was told that I had to have a permanent HKID in order to be considered.

I feel that it's pure discrimination, and I'm now considering suing the company for loss of potential income over the past 15 years.

Instead of wasting my time though, I found other jobs which paid for my flying ratings etc in return, and after 10 years of blood, sweat and tears, I'm now where I wanted to be.

I'm also going to ask for a reimbursement for ALL these monies spent on myself, amounting to a couple of million HK$.

What's good for the goose..is good for the gander..

[Liam Gallagher]

I can see what you are doing here...... however, to play devil's advocate...

What if you were to run you argument to the company and found, perhaps to your surprise, that after a period of stoic denial, they responded without warning, by giving you an allowance that the company had previously not paid you (in the case of CEP's; education allowance). With a bit more pushing from you, what if they offered you a monthly payment, less than what you are asking for, but nonetheless a useful bit of dosh. Faced with this, would you,

1. Say... no thanks... all or nothing
2. Thanks company, thanks AOA, it's a done deal, no more proddng
3. Thanks company, thanks AOA, trouser the dosh, but keep prodding... or...
4. Come on pprune and deal the "race-card" off the top, middle and bottom?

[TGIG]

Yes AD POSSE, please sue. Have the company hire you as a cadet 15 years ago.
You will find that you have to pay back money since anyone can calculate that your career earnings now is and will be substantially more than any cadet that has been with the company for 15 years. :D

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Liam Gallagher (http://www.pprune.org/members/14390-liam-gallagher)

5. Throw a floor tantrum and boycott the "I cannot fly" program and all other company programs and future parades etc..chinese style!!:ok:

[Flap10]

No one has mentioned anything about the expat cabin crews, so with the same logic as that being used by the CEPs, should all locally employed cabin crew be receiving a housing allowance???

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Exactly my point, flap 10, unfortunately some didn't see the sarcasm..

Where does it stop?

Next thing the floor cleaners will be demanding a car allowance, as it's unfair and discriminatory that the boss man can be driven around, but they have to make use of public transport..

This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm afraid no matter how hard the "mighty" AOA might be pressured into fighting this one, it's a losing battle from the start.

Start NEGOTIATING SALARY INCREASES for everyone..and you have my attention!

[TGIG]

So local colleagues - doing the same job and checked to the same standard as you - asking for similar conditions as expats are analogous to your 'floor cleaners' and the 'boss man' example. Your bigotry is quite remarkable. :yuk:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Yes indeed,

EXPERIENCE and QUALIFICATIONS are what's under discussion here.

I would like to believe that I'm capable of doing the same job as the CEO/COO, but reality in life is that unless you can show the papers and proof that you have the experience and "what it takes", you're not going to get the job.

"Asking for similar conditions" comes with the expertise and experience that I brought here..something that you obviously don't have as yet.

[Liam Gallagher]

"Bigotry".... care to explain that?

I wont hold my breath waiting for your explanation because I suspect you will be like Cxorist and CXchildlabour in that you are quick to play the racecard, but suffer gonad shrinkage when asked to back it up.....

[CXChildLabour]

AD POSSE AD ESSE,

Thank you for your cadet pilot programme application 15 years ago. We have realized that we have made a huge mistake in rejecting you because we're accepting non perment HK ID card holder into the program now, thus we did discriminate you back then and would like to make that up to you.

We would like to offer you HKD $2 million as compensation for your training cost (which is substantially more than the HKD $1.2 million we quoted to the general public). However, please return all that housing allowance you have got over the years and sign onto a local terms contract which excludes your priority 4 FOC rights and education allowance outside Hong Kong. As soon as we got that money back from you and see your signature on the dotted line for the local terms contract, we shall refund you that training cost immediately. Thanks for your services over the years as an expatriate and we welcome you with warm hearts as part of the local team.

Best Regards,
NR

[TGIG]

Liam, if you don't know what the word 'bigotry' means I suggest you pick up a dictionary and find out.
If comments from IluvPX and AD POSSE's comparison of local pilots to 'floor cleaners' are not in that category then perhaps you should post your real name here and defend their comments. Show us how big your gonads are and their inverse relationship to your brain.

[CXChildLabour]

I would like to believe that I'm capable of doing the same job as the CEO/COO, but reality in life is that unless you can show the papers and proof that you have the experience and "what it takes", you're not going to get the job.

LOL, yes, TT got his CEO post from the point he joined Swire, lol. You gain experience while you're doing the job and eventually when you're qualified, u get the post AND remuneration accordingly. If what you saying is true, I believe u should still be and remain as an SO or FO for rest of your life, whatever rank you joined the company as.

I wont hold my breath waiting for your explanation because I suspect you will be like Cxorist and CXchildlabour in that you are quick to play the racecard, but suffer gonad shrinkage when asked to back it up.....

You want me to repost what iLuvPX said to back myself up? I admitted that I used the racecard too vaguely because my post wasn't specific enough and did give the impression that I was referring to a larger group of people. However, I AM NOT backing up from calling guys like iLuvPX a racist. And I will tell it right in his face if he have the guts to say it in mine. At least I'm willing to face my own fault instead of go into hiding in the s:mad:thole like that guy is doing right now.

[Mullah Lite]

TGIG, CXChildLabour et al. on this side of the fence

Good luck debating this topic here with civility. I have given up hope of reasoning with those that are hampered with blinkers, have a blind superiority complex and believe that you always be the ginger retard of the flight deck because of the way you came to get your job. May I suggest concentrating your efforts towards talking to the GC to find a solution that benefits the CEP position but we cannot forget the legitimate concerns and fears of the expat group, especially in light of the latest DFO update which I consider very insidious.

A.P.A.E

"5. Throw a floor tantrum and boycott the "I cannot fly" program and all other company programs and future parades etc..chinese style!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"

Trying to prove TGIG's point about bigotry are we? I'd say you're doing a remarkable job. So when's the next cross burning seance?

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

CXChildLabour:


However, please return all that housing allowance you have got over the years and sign onto a local terms contract which excludes your priority 4 FOC rights and education allowance outside Hong Kong.


Now that you acknowledge the discrimination against me, I would be much obliged, as soon as YOU'VE compensated ME for:

1) 15 Years of lost salaries from the time I could have joined at age 18;
2) All the money spent on self sponsorship and training;
3) Taxes paid on housing allowances received;
4) HK SAR government stamp duty, management fees, rates&taxes;
5) Lawyer fees, renovations and maintenance;
6) The difference in lifestyle between here and back home;
7) Medical expenses (present and future) for Bad Air Quality

...and I can go on and on..

As for the priority 4 FOC's, that's ONLY if I print out 2 FOC tickets per annum to my home port in Europe (which I never do, as all the flights are forever full).

Otherwise it's priority 11 FOC's to everywhere else, and EXACTLY the same that YOU are getting!:eek:

You obviously don't have kids, or you'll know that education allownaces are now paid to all ( thanks to the "fantastic" work done by the AOA )!

[Liam Gallagher]

I know the meaning of bigotry; I just don't see how it is applicable in this case and note that no one has rationally tried to explain it.

CXchildlabour.... keep reading the big red words at the bottom of the page. Call Iluvpx whatever you like, however you are never going to get the opportunity to challenge him face to face. You are just coming across as an "internet hardman", just like him.

Mullah lite.... "ginger retard"..... no bigotry and pre-judgement there....

[Mullah Lite]

neither is the phraseology used by your buddy Ad Posse. So why aren't you going after him? And pardon my using a metaphor of modern popular western culture....incidentally devised by creators of your native language, not mine. I shall refrain from using such offensive comparison from now on.

[Liam Gallagher]

Because you deem that Ad Posse and I hold the same views (although I doubt that we do), you profile us as "buddies" and therefore pre-judge me. If you have an issue with Ad posse, take it up with him.

Frankly, I don't care about your ginger comment, but I raise it as an illustration as to how easy it is to feign injury at someone's flippant remarks in an attempt to gain leverage in a debate.... the racecard tactic.

However, what you cannot feign is the inability of you, or anyone else, to write a coherent argument as to how the CEP is discriminatory or racist.

[CXChildLabour]

1) 15 Years of lost salaries from the time I could have joined at age 18;
2) All the money spent on self sponsorship and training;
3) Taxes paid on housing allowances received;
4) HK SAR government stamp duty, management fees, rates&taxes;
5) Lawyer fees, renovations and maintenance;
6) The difference in lifestyle between here and back home;
7) Medical expenses (present and future) for Bad Air Quality

1) You could get compensated from age 20 (cause u would be 20 by the time u join CX after graduation), that would be a smaller cost than the housing u got since then. While you're at it, we want all earnings you made since age 18 as well cause u were supposed to be either under training and working for us.
2) That's what that 2 million I offered is for, in case u couldn't read properly. :ugh:
3) Sure, you can deduct that part out of ur repayment if you want, it'd still cost us less.
4), 5) Why may I ask? Is that not the cost for CEP's when they need a place to live?
6) If you chose the cadet route, that means you chose to live in HKG, just like what we told those cadets who applied from and lived overseas their whole life.
7) Are you dying from the bad air? I'm sorry to hear that, let me check if your CEP counterparts have the same problem and shall get back to you on that one.

[Flap10]

Mullah Lite, cxchild, TGIG.

Just an honest question,

Can you put your hand on your heart and call Hong Kong home??

If so, then regardless of what the outcome is, it is still not a bad deal. There is a lot to be said for being 'home', no need to get so uptight.:ok::ok:

if not, then what exactly were you thinking coming to Hong Kong knowing that you would be on a 'local' package?? Personally, even if it meant a free licence, I still would not have come here unless there were certain financial perks.

[Mullah Lite]

Liam

I'm still not seeing you go after him for his 'chinese style' remark. So please excuse me if I see a double standard in being quick to attack me and not him.

In all of my arguments here for improvement to the CEP income, I have never played the race card. It is an illegitimate argument. I will, however, lob nasty eggs back from where they came. Comments like those above would fall under that category.

I'm not feigning an inability....just because you and I don't share the same viewpoint does not mean either of us is wrong....you and I are seeing things from across a divide, and therefore we leave this to a third party to decide who is or is not making a valid argument.

[michaelbolton]

this thing is getting out of control

funny how this whole thread revolves around the same few people.

oh yeah....cxchildlabor....you are so brainwashed you are Beyond saving.

lets make this clear.

If you are from canada and get a job at Air Canada and live in Vancouver or toronto should you get housing? NO

If you are australian and get a job at qantas and live in brisbane should you get housing ? NO

If you are cadet from hong kong and get an airline to pay for 14 months of training to become a boeing/airbus pilot in adelaide, give you meals and accommodation while your there, and a job when you get back to hong kong in a widebody jet eating sandwiches and putting jepp charts away flying all over the world (while military or bush pilots never had anything like that) ...should you get housing?....according to guys like cxchildlabor....yes...according to everyone else NO NO NO NO

YOU WANT HOUSING ????

GO TO KINGFISHER ..live in india and get salary PLUS HOUSING

GO TO EMIRATES...live in the desert, get salary PLUS HOUSING

GO TO QATAR....live in the desert, get salary PLUS HOUSING

and as for the RACE CARD....you guys have opened pandoras box on that one,....get screwed on your rest....RACE CARD....lose a sector....RACE CARD.....blah blah blah

you ceps are so :mad: spoiled its beyond belief....W A K E UP!!!

and lets face the facts,....some cadet pilots are very good,....but most of them are so far behind the airplane due to lack of experience it isn't funny.......

go ahead....let the crap fly....have you ever seen my name on this site before??? thats right.....i'm new....and i'm not posting anything else.....i just love stirring the pot especially when i see a pathetic low life like cxchildlabor who is probably just fuming now and won't be able to sleep until he posts some brilliant response.......lol

YOU DON'T DESERVE HOUSING

YOU DON'T DESERVE HOUSING

YOU D O N ' T D E S E R V E H O U S I N G

bye bye
:=

[cxorcist]

Liam,

No gonad shinkage here, except when I get cold. I just don't live in front of my computer like many of you guys choking away in the Hong Kong soup.

With regard to the race card and the charge of discrimintation, it is noted that not all permanent ID card holders are in fact Chinese. So in that respect, I stand corrected. However, I still think it is fair to call the CX status quo discrimination against those from Hong Kong - which is really the relevant issue here. Hong Kong is an international city with a diverse group calling it home. So it is wrong to dimantle a discrimination charge with what is really nothing more than a racial technicality.

The emergence of "international cadets" recently makes me wonder if the company did not catch onto this discrimination well ahead of the HKAOA. By recruiting and allowing those without permanent HKID cards to be cadets, CX can effectively diffuse the argument of discrimination against Hong Kong locals by showing that others groups are willing to accept the deal (although I suspect many will leave CX once they have gained the required experience).

For me, a relevant parallel is the recruitment of freigter DEFOs (FFOs) back on CoS99. Many pilots have been recruited directly onto bases to fly the freighter. They serve(d) a freighter commitment which was 36 months from initial line check or ... etc. After the freighter commitment, these pilots can take a passenger position and/or come to Hong Kong for the full expat package. This period can be looked at as a form of apprenticeship. Similarly, a CoS08 DEFO has to serve 4 years on the base until being eligible for return to Hong Kong. Again, this can be viewed as a period of appreniceship, although many will choose to remain on the base for longer due to lifestyle considerations.

The point is that all officers, except CEPs, have a mechanism for being able to achieve the full allowance package in Hong Kong. I do not think this is fair. I do believe it is discrimination. For those who brought up the issue of bonding or some type of payback for training, I think CEPs would be much better off if they had some way to pay back CX for their training, be it via years of service or money. It is unfair is to treat them like second class pilots for the duration of their careers because they started as a cadet from Hong Kong.

Now you may enlighten me with your omniscience...

cxorcist

[AvGaurd]

I really think these LEP's got lots of BALLS. First of all you get hired at a tender age so you can spend your whole career at CX, without the additional loans and money borrowed from people to get your ratings. If CX decides to give you guys a dime for housing then the AOA better watch out because the rest of us based guys would like the same deal. I must say I agree with the DFO on this issue. You guys do have other gripes but this one is not a good fight. I wish CX paid for my ratings and then pay me to fly a 777 with only 350 hours. Fight another fight but you can't get my support.

Thats my 2 cents.

[treboryelk]

Its not fair, i cant join Cathay by reading some books, having a few flying lessons and joining the air cadets....i am British.....this must be another race issue!

That was meant very tongue in cheek, but has there ever been a case of a Hong Kong national spending his/her 20's busting his/her nuts building hours (or through their second nationality, flying in the military) and then joining Cathay as a DEFO?

I would be very interested to see how this situation, if it has ever arisen, was treated.

[Liam Gallagher]

Mullah lite

"I'm still not seeing you go after him for his 'chinese style' remark. So please excuse me if I see a double standard in being quick to attack me and not him".

You are correct, I am attacking you and a few others because you are the ones "diving in the penalty box" clutching your shin with one hand and the racecard in the other.

Treboryelk

I have flown with a number of SOs and FOs, mainly sons and daughters of CX pilots and engineers, who rejected the CEP scheme and went through the GA hours-building-bug-smashing machine and ended up in CX on expats terms (I imagine there are an equal number of HKID CPL qualified hamburger flippers out there as well:().... which leads to my next post...

[Liam Gallagher]

I am glad you have dropped the racecard. I think the thrust of your post is contained in the following 2 quotes;

"However, I still think it is fair to call the CX status quo discrimination against those from Hong Kong - which is really the relevant issue here" and

"The point is that all officers, except CEPs, have a mechanism for being able to achieve the full allowance package in Hong Kong. I do not think this is fair. I do believe it is discrimination."

Again, your argument would hold some validity if those pilots who had HKID's, but went overseas and gained the necessary qualifications and experience, and then joined CX as DESO's or DEFO's were compelled by virtue of their HKID's to be CEPs/ LEP's. But this is not the case.

We all can, and often do, bleat about our contracts being unfair with varying degrees of validity. Both you and I will never be on A Scale because we joined after 1993, yet we do the same job as the A scaler. Is that unfair, is it discriminatory?

To label something discriminatory I believe you cross a line; you are saying it is more than unfair, you are saying it is abhorent and in this day and age you are saying it is legally challengable. I am very uncomfortable with labelling this as discriminatory.

However, those who have posted along the lines of Michael Bolton, need to be aware that the company are opening the door to change. LEPs now get a form of Education Allowance and if the DFO's words can be taken at face value:eek:, he is entertaining the idea of a payment to LEP's in lieu of housing. This is happening with or without the wider pilot bodies input..... should we care?

[Mullah Lite]

Liam

"You are correct, I am attacking you and a few others because you are the ones "diving in the penalty box" clutching your shin with one hand and the racecard in the other."

Still asking you to go back and trawl through my posts and pull something out that screams race. No success? Might be because I've never thought it was a race issue. So perhaps you could cease with the baseless remarks, thank you very much.

[Liam Gallagher]

Your wish is my command, see your post 189

Addressed to CXchildlabour, you said...

"Self imposed prejudice and bias wlll always allow those few to cultivate a blind and hardened heart. A hardened heart dulls a person's ability to believe or understand another's point of view. So maybe the only thing that we can do is convince by example, whether or not we get their support."

I took your comment to mean that anyone who took a contrary view to CXchildlabour (and by implication you) suffered from self imposed predudice and bias. Sounds like the racecard to me.....

You can continue to "lob nasty eggs" at me (and I didn't even make the comments that offended you so) or you can bring the debate back on track and explain how the LEPs are being unfairly treated anymore than the A/B, freighter/non freighter, over 55/under 55, based/non-based, COS99/CoS08 inequities that we all have to put up with day-in day-out.

Did we all not at some stage walk into a room and read and sign a contract? If we believe that contract to be unfair/discriminatory/racist (delete as appropriate) surely the answer was to not sign......

[TGIG]

Liam,
Same job, same company, same standards, same conditions. If I was working in your home country doing any job that would be exactly what I'm entitled to right?

[workingman303]

The irony in all this is that if there is one place in the world at the moment that a chinese speaking person with a basic CPL and 737 rating could currently get a narrowbody jet job it's just over the border in China. And here's Cathay hiring cadets because they can't find locals with flying experience.

BTW Having permanent ID here doesn't mean anything, you don't exercise it for 24 months at a border crossing and it is revoked. Little bit different to a HKG passport.............

TGIG it wasn't the same conditions, I was rejected until I had 4000 hrs.........

[TGIG]

Before people start being up A vs B, COS 99/08 etc, I don't think you can right a wrong with another wrong...

[crewsunite]

Tony Tyler: HK$ 2,709,000.00 (HK$ 225,750.00 per month)

Nick Rhodes: HK$ 2,513,000.00 (HK$ 209,416.67 per month)

By the way:
Stop Bitching guys - fight for unity instead. Try be more professional if you would like to be treated as such.

[workingman303]

OK, I want unity with A scale, I'm tird of hanging around with these B scalers and their tight budgets

[Liam Gallagher]

Same job/same pay/same conditions is a myth.

Pilot's wages have been dropping over the passed 20 years and typically most legacy airlines have differing payscales dependent on DOJ. In my home country, BA perhaps is one of the most marked. Just one example...the fortunes, or lack thereof, of the BA pension scheme will provide a marked difference between the earnings of senior and junior pilots.

Indeed, in the UK many employees, including civil servants such as police and teachers, receive a "London weighting" which is an allowance to entice them to work in London.

I agree, one wrong does not right another wrong. I also believe that just because you can't right all wrongs, doesn't mean you should not try and right but one. Please re-read my post; what makes this inequity, in a swamp of inequities, the most important?

Finally, a question for you.... did you raise your same job/same conditions mantra at your interview? If not, why not?

Crewsunite..... I agree, lets all unite to get me A-scales.... happy?

[TGIG]

No I didn't raise this in the interview, surely if I did I wouldn't be posting in this forum today. Nor could I have guessed that a self proclaimed Hong Kong airline would give such a wide pay disparity between its local pilots vs its expat pilots.

I know that this is what I've signed for, and thus, as many has pointed out in this thread, what I'm only entitled to get. My only conclusion to that is, if this is the case, we should all never ask for better conditions because we all signed a contract when we joined. Its ironic how some of my fellow colleagues keep remaining me what I signed for years ago when in a few years time the company will change the very wording of that contract at its whim - again and again...

[Liam Gallagher]

The point you raise in the second paragraph is a fair one and I agree that many of us too quick to overlook it. However, for my part I don't object that the LEP's are working to improve their lot, what I object to is the type of argument they are using...

Changing tack slightly, I have mentioned all the inequities in our various contracts and they are all issues the AOA has tried to improve/reconcile, yet it is the LEP's that have seemed, with or without the AOA's help, to gain some traction and get an improvement out of the company. No agenda from me, just 2 honest questions;

1. Why do you think the company introduced Education allowance for LEP's, and,

2. How genuine do you think the DFO's recent "offer" of $12,000 was?

[yokebearer]

DragonAir CEP pilots get $ 12000 -as FO. I think it is basically what the CX CEP's would like as well.

As far as I am concerned that would be great if they can get it. Anyone who is able to improve his package I am happy for. It doesn't cost me anything....

[Mullah Lite]

Liam, you are truly a piece of work to behold. Nothing in that statement had anything to do with the race card. You could just have easily seen it as being an argument that some people here will always see a cadet as being second class, simply because of their method of entry, not the colour of their skin. But seeing as I seem to keep being the one to try and point this out to you, I really have to question whether you are the one using the race card, not me.

Anyhoos, nice try. I will say it again....the race card is an illegitimate argument. If you and I both agree on that, let's leave it to rest there, shall we.

[Steve the Pirate]

Mullah

Err, I know it was a long time ago but I thought I'd highlight this bit from the post that started this nonsense (quoted from the piece in the Standard). This is possibly what Liam is referring to but to be sure, I'd ask him.

The group has also sought help from three legislators to determine whether the airline is in breach of racial discrimination laws or regulations.STP

[Liam Gallagher]

I read that statement and the posts by cxdiscriminates. I have no way of knowing if what they say is true and certainly would not take those statements as evidence to prove the racist claims.

What I do know is CX has no policy that states HKID card holders are only to employed on local terms. I have never flown with anyone that has experienced such. However, I have flown with a number of pilots who were eligible to become CEP's but elected to fund their own training and successfully applied to CX and are on expat terms.

If it has happened in individual cases, then I would hope the AOA would fund a legal action. However, even if any individual cases exist they would not validate any claim that the CEP program is racist/nationalist/ or other 'ist (which is the argument the original poster was promoting)

[Forward CofG]

I think you will find that only happened to 2 or 3 guys, and one of them left to go to another Hong Kong carrier. It doesn't seem to be the norm. It was unfair to those involved.

Already experienced = expat terms

No license or experience = cadet, LEP

[BusyB]

Liam,
There is such a policy and it is not limited to flying staff. Examples are HCSD and previous B744 Fleet Admin guy:ok:

[Near Miss]

People it has nothing to do with experience level or race! :ugh: It is an expat housing allowance given to those who relocated themselves (and family) to Hong Kong, without holding the right of residency.

All these arguments about hours and race are really starting to :mad: me off. It is an expat housing allowance. Pure and simple.

Now if the local guys are able to get some sort of extra allowance, call it a retention bonus after gaining a P1 rating, then fantastic for them. This is what they should be pushing for IMHO.

[iceman50]

When the eyes of green are closed what the HKAOA should be pushing for is a RISE in BASIC pay for everyone, inflation has hit everybody!

Extra allowances are useless and cheap for the company, a basic pay rise will increase PF contributions. Unfortunately the likes of CXchildlabour are so blinkered and bigoted they cannot see the wood for the trees.:ugh:

The HKAOA President should be making a statement, as I do not remember voting on this strategy.

[yokebearer]

Apparently ( and don't shoot the rumour monger if I am wrong - I am relaying what I was told ) some sons of CX pilots who were born and grew up in Hong Kong joined as cadets (or even DESO) but were given housing. If NOT holding the ID and NOT having to move your family overseas is the qualification then these guys certainly don't qualify?


Whereas a guy who grew up in Canada / Aus but is from an originally HKG chinese family - who then joins as cadet and moves to HKG where he has no more immediate family or home - is considered a local purely because his father did him the favour of getting him a HKG ID??

ANd as much as I agree with previous poster that we should all get a payrise - what will happen is that CEP FO's will soon get the $ 12000 ( like Dragon guys get ) in order to shut them up and stop embarrassing the company and everyone else can forget about any increases.

Lesson learned : You only get something if you make enough noise.

[Forward CofG]

There has been many more than 3 Permanent HKID join the company with experience.

Most of them were given expat conditions after the company tried to put them on local terms. They told the company they would take their services elsewhere if it was not an expat package, and the company backed down.

iceman50,

I agree with you completely. A payrise for all.

[flyhardmo]

The goal of the airline is to increase the number of locally employed pilots - both on Bases overseas and in Hong Kong. Through the Cadet Pilot Scheme, we have made a huge investment over the past two decades in training young people who may otherwise not have had the opportunity to become pilots and to develop local talent in Hong Kong.

I think the press and LEP'sshould be jumping on this statement in cx's employment policy. If their aim is to develop local talent then why open up the cadet scheme to everyone else. This spells out the real motives of the company in that it won't pay housing allowance to local cadets as a way of saving money just as it won't pay a housing allowance to the non-local cadets that are being recruited at the moment. :ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

It's quite simple really trendsetters, it is called supply and demand.
I would wager that some time ago CX and KA said to themselves " hang on, we don't need to pay this much, there is a glut of pilots out there " ..........gentlemen I give you " B " scale.
They probably also said " we need to employ locals to be seen to be doing the right thing, but there are no ( or hardly any ) locals that meet our requirements ".... gentlemen, I give you the cadet scheme.
Do you guys really think that they pay us what they do, including housing, because they like us and don't like you ??? really ?? do you really think it's personal ?? I know it's already been mentioned but how many non A scalers bitch about not getting A scale ?? Probably not too many, they signed up for B scale and that is what they got, pay increases due to rises in cost of living etc are a completely different animal, but basically they are getting what they signed for.
They pay us what is required to leave our home country, ( and quite often a good job ) our families, our clean air and our 2 storey/4bed/3 bath house on a 700 sq meter block etc and not a cent more, if they thought they could get away with payin less I can assure you they would.
Until there are a glut of pilots, and I would'nt hold my breath, you guys are on a hiding to nothing because at the end of the day, what do you have to bargain with ? apart from voting with your feet which none of you seem to be keen on.
This is not us against them, racism or any other bleeding heart issue you may care to hide it behind, it is simple economics.
IF THEY DID'NT NEED US, THEY WOULD'NT BE PAYING US ( or any other expat in HK ) WHAT THEY DO.
Hope thats clear enough.
Good luck with improving your lot but do yourself a favour and drop the chase for expat conditions.

[dpamember]

HKF,

You left your home country for a job in Hong Kong Airlines. Didn't take much to entice you out of your country!

[hongkongfooey]

You left your home country for a job in Hong Kong Airlines. Didn't take much to entice you out of your country!

Nope, just a bunch of lies and BS, but I fail to see what that has to do with this topic.
Oh, other than my point about getting what you signed for :suspect: