Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks

[And Then]

Due a world-wide pilot shortage and underhanded industrial action; supply and demand actually. KA took anyone. Mostly HKA pilots.

If I were a local pilot at KA. And noted the conditions HKA pilots accepted in coming to HKG. I would be jaded as well. They worked for less than local conditions, undercut everyone, slid over to KA and got a pay rise, housing and legacy expatriate conditions. All on the industrial efforts of others.

Good luck to the local guys at KA. But what are they doing?

[trevfly]

The locals in KAare up in arms.Their pants are on the floor!.
Well enough, we need to forget out issues, and work together, to create
the best force together
Even if pay is so different!
Well I never :)

[Near Miss]

I would have to say yes.

[LongExcursion]

Surely, it makes sense for a company wanting to make up for resource shortfalls by importing flying skills to offer those that are willing to uproot and go live in another country some incentives to do so. At the end of the day, whether it might be cloaked in equally opportunity arguments but it ultimately comes down to money.

[Frogman1484]

They were given a flying licence and a seat on a widebody jet. The same one I paid over $200000 and over 10 years of slave labour in a lot of dodgy airplanes.

When I can live in my home country is when Cx can stop paying me housing!!!

[Liam Gallagher]

"Which is why anyway you cut it, CX is discriminating, getting away with it, and laughing to the bank."

The problem with using a word like "discriminating" is that it comes with a lot of baggage. CX is discriminating against whom; what group?

We have had the argument they discriminate against those of Chinese origin; yet we have pilots of Chinese origin on expat terms.

We have had the argument they have discriminate against those with HKIDs; yet we have pilots who joined with HKIDs who are on expat terms.

We now have an argument they are discriminating against employees who get scholarships; yet these people are generally not chinese and not HKID holders.

It would seem that anyone joining in the future as a DESO will be a CEP (irrespective of their experience level). So where does that leave the discrimination label?

Perhaps it is just market forces. They access your circumstances and pitch a contract at you. You accept it or decline it. If you accept it; deal with it.

I shall leave you with anecdote from a few years back. One of the most senior extendees was recounting to me a conversation he had just had with NR. In that conversation Nick had confirmed it was inevitable that CX would get RA65, however Nick was not going to have over 60's in HK on expat terms. Nick felt that by age 60 the company had paid for enough housing and education for that individual and if the he didn't like it, the guy had seniority to go on base. The extendee was livid; he had not lived in his "home" country for decades, his wife was settled in HK and his school age children considered HK their home. How would you label this case?

a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.

Food for thought??

[Ex Cathedra]

I can't see the discrimination claim either.

As incompetent as CX's management and lawyers are, they would have no trouble at all disassembling the discrimination claim in a justice court.

Therefore why continue charging on with that frail argument?
Everybody here agrees that the CEPs should get some form of compensation and fight for it, but this is not the way to get it.


a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.



a. Yes, why would he lose the benefits at 60, but not at 59?
b. They wanted to keep well paid, senior Capts instead their own FOs and SOs, so why complain about how much it would cost them?
c. Can 'the guy' in question retire in HK, or get another job in HK should he need to? What if there are no bases where 'the guy' is from? Is he forced to accept the lesser conditions he never signed for, just to keep a job he is entitled to?

[Flap10]

so that he can later blindside a divided flightcrew, pull the rug out from under the "EXPAT" housing since all these "EXPAT"s are now enticed to hk with NO HOUSING

Actually the housing is part of your contract, he can't pull the rug out unless you give him a hand by signing it away with your consent.

[The Messiah]

How would you label this case?

a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.


I vote (a) as well as a couple of other answers that are not options there.:ok:

when does an expat stop being an expat?

From the Oxford dictionary an expatriate (noun) is;
a person who lives outside their native country;

So I guess the answer is when they move back to their native country and not before. Pretty simple really.:confused:

[hongkongfooey]

Due a world-wide pilot shortage and underhanded industrial action; supply and demand actually. KA took anyone. Mostly HKA pilots.

If I were a local pilot at KA. And noted the conditions HKA pilots accepted in coming to HKG. I would be jaded as well. They worked for less than local conditions, undercut everyone, slid over to KA and got a pay rise, housing and legacy expatriate conditions. All on the industrial efforts of others

You are truly a tosser.
HKA lied and Bull**itted to get people to come to HK, hardly a comparison to CX/KA who tell you what conditions you will be on, up front, no surprises. KA took experienced guys with HK licences and that were living here in HK, what a surprise :rolleyes:
As far as working for less and undercutting everyone, you just shot yourself in the foot ( which looks like it is in your mouth ) as the cadets are working for lower conditions are'nt they ? Is'nt that what this thread is all about :confused: So using your warped logic, the cadets are undercutting everyone. ( your analysis, not mine )

[Flap10]

you mean like another SLS and RA65 so you sign away bypass pay? Just ask any Canadian based FO! Sometimes your hand is FORCED to sign. You just wait, it'll happen.

Your HAND is never forced, the choice is ultimately up to YOU!! YOU have the final say. Many of us never agreed to SLS nor signed onto CoS 08. Ask those Canadian based crew that never signed to CoS 08 and had to be put on a special agreement!!!! Ask those Cabin Crew that never signed onto the 76hr contract and to this day remain on the old 72hr contract. The perception that you are being FORCED is all brought about by YOUR FEAR of losing your job!

[Flap10]

You are correct absolutely nothing will stop them from doing what you mention, hence the reason why previous posters are saying about CEPs indirectly attacking the housing allowance. For most expats the housing allowance is the only thing that makes it worth while staying in HKG. If the housing allowance is substantially reduced, I suspect a few will leave, but the majority will stay and be even more disgruntled, and the pilot body will be even more divided.

[iMad]

If the housing allowance is substantially reduced, I suspect a few will leave, but the majority will stay and be even more disgruntled, and the pilot body will be even more divided.

Hence the sooner the company agrees on an elevated CEP package the safer it is for the expats as well....

[club med]

...compelling logic. I still think the idea of basing your position on attaining a housing allowance is flawed, but I certainly agree that 'increasing' your package is a good one, as any incremental increase for ANY group can only help in supporting our overall conditions. I think the time has come to stop bickering on the detail, and re-establish solidarity as a group of professionals. Our adversary is NOT each other....

[Flap10]

CEPs are actually doing YOU a favour by asking for housing. You can return the favour and help yourself by joining their cause.

I don't agree with any of your logic. I agree with you that they may possibly in the future fix the housing allowance at $24k for all expats, but as I've said before, they cannot do away with the allowance since it is in the contract. Perhaps someone can correct me on this point, but my understanding is that the amount should be enough to ensure that you maintain roughly the same living standards as where you come from. So paying a $5000 housing allowance will not suffice and can be properly challenged in court.

Furthermore, if the ultimate plan is to do away with the housing allowance, do you really think paying the CEPs a housing now will forever in the future protect the housing allowance??? An airline acts by either a crippling strike or by seeing a large turnover amongst its staff. Will any CEP resign if a housing allowance is not offered to them, or taken from them at a future date???

I still think the idea of basing your position on attaining a housing allowance is flawed

That's what most here have been trying to convey to the CEPs.

[bobrun]

I can't understand why we would expect the company to spend more on a CEP than a FO on a base. Are we saying it's ok to give less to FOs because they live in their own country now? So your an inexperienced CEP and can live it up, but FOs on bases have to deal with reduced packages in comparison?

We all know their is no discrimination and it's only a press stunt to pressure the company. But we should put our focus on pressures that will benefit all of us.

[And Then]

Hong Kong Fooey

A threat to my package is people like you who came to HKG and worked for abysmal outfits such as Hong Kong Airlines. I have no doubt about this.

And secondly, a widening gap between my benefits and those of my local colleagues.

Now I understand mugs like yourself never realize a big picture and warm to the fact that someone who never did it as tough and as well as you doesn't deserve your expatriate perks.

I can also see that my local colleagues must be dismayed that undercutting expatriates who came to Hong Kong to work for second rate operators. Now make more after a few months of service than a local captain who has been in the airline for some time.

[cxorcist]

Liam,

I think the latest CEP FAQ missive from the HKAOA puts all of this in perspective. It addresses most of your problems with respect to the discrimination charge. I still believe that it is discrimination against a mostly Chinese group from Hong Kong. The fact that a few from Hong Kong have managed to get expat allowances does not IMO weaken the charge.

No offense, but with views like yours I would imagine you are not a HKAOA member. However, I would be happy to send you the FAQ from the HKAOA if you would like to view them. Feel free to PM me.

CXorcist

PS - Your view about when an expat becomes a local disgusts me and will never gain traction if I have anything to say about it. Perhaps you are NR pretending to be a pilot????

[geh065]

the amount should be enough to ensure that you maintain roughly the same living standards as where you come from.

This is something which has been mentionned several times in this thread but what does it mean? What are the living standards in the place I come from? What are the living standards in the place that YOU come from? What do you compare yourself to? Bankers? Lawyers? Factory workers? For a CEP, you can say that had it not been for CX, they probably would not be pilots but working in other industries. Is that what you compare living standards to? Doctors and lawyers have much better standards of living than many CEPs. Many CEPs actually gave up very lucrative jobs to be pilots believe it or not.

...or, perhaps we should compare to other flying jobs. Fair enough! So an expat working overseas, had they not joined CX might not be flying for a major airline. They might be furloughed or perhaps instead of command at CX they are F/Os on a widebody or perhaps captains on a small plane....or they might be living in a large house with a swimming pool in a nice part of town. Who knows? What does the CEP benchmark to? Well, if a CEP was to leave Cathay with a few years of widebody flying under their belt they could earn the same amount as what the expat is benchmarking themselves to. As someone else mentionned the 'housing' for a CEP should maybe be marketed as a retainer.

It is one thing for people to say a CEP should only get the living standards they would have in Hong Kong anyway, but how do you quantify it? There are some damned smart CEPs who would be living very well had it not been for Cathay's cadet scheme!

[crwjerk]

There are some damned smart CEPS who would be living very well had it not been for Cathay's Cadet Scheme.

There are also some who are Captains who should not be allowed to touch an aeroplane.
Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.

[iceman50]

There are some damned smart CEPs who would be living very well had it not been for Cathay's cadet scheme! As was previously been said NOT that smart then.

If all these smart people are REALLY so smart and fed up why don't they leave and find a much better job somewhere else, after all that's what they were all saying to those that wanted to stay past 55.

The division was started when the "race" card was played. The way this whole situation has developed there appears to be a hidden agenda. I think the HKAOA President has a lot of explaining to do, as Mass joining then this! Pity they could not have put a bit more time and money into the HKAOA first!

What the problem really is here, is that some of the posters see the expats using the housing allowance to purchase and think it is unfair because they signed a "local" contract, whereas the majority of expats use it for rental. The "company" chose that purchase scheme to make the workforce more compliant and also to save money. Too many people see this expat allowance as "salary" it is NOT.

[Flap10]

the CEP captain won't because he/she didn't suffer any setback. All guys on expat housing deal will participate, but what does the company do? Give CEP's overtime, tolerate the sick out until they deem it union activity and then fire you (since it's illegal to participate in union activities in hk).

if the same CEP captain is also on expat housing (let's say the deal is that CEPs get full housing as captain), as you are, and company tries to reduce housing to 24k. This time, union has a fit, and everyone will participate in the sick out.

Those CEPs who aren't captains yet will also participate because by having a reduced housing, it's reducing their future earnings. They will stand together with everyone else since they have something to lose.

I do apologize sirhcttarp, no disrespect, but I was on the floor laughing. I am not trying to start anything here, but the fact is that nearly none of the LEPs participated in the previous sickout when we had hard core issues at stake for the entire pilot body, such as rostering, salary, etc. What makes you think this time it will be different when most LEPs will regard the housing allowance as really an extra bonus.

You can bang your fist on NR's desk all you want, but the company is not going to increase the housing allowance budget, not for you and not for anyone. If his offer of $12k was genuine he would have offered it right now, but he wants to have it coincide with when the housing agreement is due, so that he can simply take a slice from the expats and give it to the CEPs, to be seen as genuinely caring toward the CEP cause, and at the same time he will have a further divided group, which will in-turn only benefit the company. Really, a win-win situation for management if we continue down this path.

[fly123456]

I'm a Europe based F/O, and I have nothing against the LEP having the same housing allowances as the expats in HK.

If another 10-15% of pilots get the housing, it will be even harder for the company to scrap the deal.

And once they get it, it'll be time for us to ask the same thing :}

[Liam Gallagher]

In my experience anyone who starts with "no offence" means to do the complete opposite.

The AOA's CEP's FAQ's follow a similar pattern to some of the posts here. The AOA plays the "race card" and tries to reap the rewards. They fail to back up the racial discrimination charge with any evidence whatsover. However, they do concede;

"It is true that many CEPs are not Chinese. However, most are Chinese - certainly enough for CEPs, as a group, to be identified as Chinese for the purposes of the Racial Discrimination Ordinance...."

What a stunning revelation... the CEP program, that is designed to get locals into the cockpit, is mostly chinese:ugh: Many however are not. So what are they saying, many are not chinese, but to suit or argument we are going to define the group as chinese.... I'm confused...

However, what is not in doubt is that none of the CEP's receive expat terms (except maybe the instructors:confused:). To be racist, it would have to be that the CEPs are divided racially, such that one racial group receive expat allowances and another racial group do not. This is not the case, and I note the AOA are not even attempting to argue such; so where is the racism??

The AOA also concede that the RDO doesn't apply because of what they describe as "a loophole". It is worth remembering that one person's loophole is another person's fair and just law...

Finally,

"PS - Your view about when an expat becomes a local disgusts me and will never gain traction if I have anything to say about it."

eeh? WTF are talking about. Are you diving in the penalty box again?

[geh065]

Longtimeincx, iceman50, crwjerk,

You really are a cynical bunch aren't you. Just because CEPs decided on flying as a career it does not mean they are not smart. (It also says a lot about you as a fellow pilot as well if you believe what you are saying!). Why did you become pilots? Perhaps it was because you cannot see yourself sitting behind a desk working 9-5 every day. Perhaps it is because you stood at the edge of the runway as a kid with a huge grin on your face watching the planes come and go. Perhaps as a kid on holiday you used to stare in admiration at the smartly dressed pilots walking through the terminal. Many CEPs became pilots for the same reasons as many of the expats and money is not always a top priority in life. It is sad that you would assume people are stupid for chosing the lesser lucrative careers on purpose. Sad that sometimes we forget the enthusiasm we had as young pilots instead of the jaded and cynical bitchers and moaners that we have all become.

[geh065]

ou can bang your fist on NR's desk all you want, but the company is not going to increase the housing allowance budget, not for you and not for anyone.

The overall children's education budget was increased with zero detriment to the expat's education allowance.

[7478]

QUOTE:
crwjerk:

Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.

-- did you not come to CX and HK for the financial gain? in fact, i would have quitted CX and paved my way to become a banker if i'm to earn more money. I, like many other CEPS and my coursemates, am a big fan of aircraft since i was a kid. What's your logic when u made such comments about the CEPS?

-- you are the very few minor EXPATS that make me sick.

[gofor]

747 wroteQUOTE:
crwjerk:

Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.

-- did you not come to CX and HK for the financial gain? in fact, i would have quitted CX and paved my way to become a banker if i'm to earn more money. I, like many other CEPS and my coursemates, am a big fan of aircraft since i was a kid. What's your logic when u made such comments about the CEPS?

-- you are the very few minor EXPATS that make me sick.

Sorry , I do not understand - maybe it is lost in translation - maybe you can enlighten other aviators worldwide as to what you are trying to say.

Are you only in CPA for the money? And you would rather be a banker should you earn a greater salary/package?

You may have been a 'big fan of aircraft' since you were a kid, but I know of many cadets - of many airlines - who have no idea of a/c types , let alone other aircraft type performance. And as in the CPA case, I know of some cadets that 5 years ago had no idea of the existence of the pilot profession (only became aware of it for the first time at their uni's roadshow fronted by CPA!) and now they sit in the RHS of a widebody - The same 25yo live with their family(cultural thing?) and have no intention of moving away from Mom.

Is CPA not overstaffed - EK has 25% more aircraft and 25% less pilots , and believe it or not EK work a lot harder with no credit hours (in fact less credit for time in the bunk). Or maybe you prefer Korean:}

[7478]

gofor:

what does the EK manning level has to do with your argument there? and why were u suggesting Korean further?
i'm also lost.

[C172Driver]

gofor:
The same 25yo live with their family(cultural thing?) and have no intention of moving away from Mom.

You may find that regardless of profession many HK people cannot afford to move out.

[workingman303]

I am also for it and I would like a refund for the difference in pay I got doing 10 ****ty years in GA instead of 10 years on CX seniority. I suppose thats only 10 years of command salary at 5% compound interest.

Can the AOA look at that next please, it is important we right all the wrongs and obviously I should have been able to join with a basic CPL all those years ago.

[hongkongfooey]

Sorry Andthen, your warped logic is lost on me.
How you work out that people coming to airlines like HKA is effecting your package ( I assume in CX ) is completely beyond me, it does'nt seem to have hurt anyone else in CX :confused:
Local pilots should stand up for themselves and tell their story walking, as they have lowered the pay for all locals behind them, is'nt that right ? Why don't they go to Korean, Emirates, Etihad etc ? Why stay around here whining about the conditions ? If they are that bad surely you would be better off elsewhere.
Once again, at the risk of souding like a broken record, in most cases pilots joined airlines like HKA because they were lied to, the actual pay and conditions where nowhere near good enough to leave our homes for.

[Fly747]

Oasis at least provided some competition for the employment of local pilots. A few FOs left KA for Oasis, this resulted in the "special allowance" for locals to try to stop anymore leaving.
It is all about supply and demand, long term not giving cadets housing may well cost more money as they will not be bound by the golden handcuffs.

[dpamember]

Hongkongfooey,

Your profound negativity towards the locals is disconcerting.

The majority of KA pilots are DPA members and support the DPA's aim to provide protection and continually improve the rights and working conditions of professional aircrew.

This includes local pilots.

Whilst you bleat off on this forum that you would've not been in HK if it wasn't for the expatriate package, that fact remains that YOU left your home country for an abysmal and inferior HKA package.

If you were foolish enough to leave your home country on a 'promise', then you deserve everything you got (or did not get) whilst in HKA.

Well said AndThen, I and many others share your sentiments!

[club med]

It would seem that this debate is veering a bit of course. We need to find a common ground for the overall issue. Arguing on the basis of 'race' is a sure fire way to lose ground to the company's agenda. All pilot groups deserve an improvement on their package. How do we achieve that?

[ColonialFlyer]

I agree with sirhcttarp (http://www.pprune.org/members/144003-sirhcttarp)

It's all about bridging the gap between the pay of the expat and local. I for one agrees that expats should have housing allowance. Epats left their home countries for HK, it should be compensated for. But what demoralizing is that Cathay used it as an excuse to cap the LEP overall pay package. What level of accommodation is expected to cost 50k a month (FO housing allowance), really?

Again Cathay is and have been very good with the "divide and conquer" concept. This is what exactly Cathay wants. We are colleagues, friends. Lets stay unified.

[747-8]

I've registered just now only to say "what the hell is going on"
Expat benefits are just that. If you're a local (I am) you get local terms. To get expat terms go somewhere else. What is it you guys don't understand? I'd like more money, of course, but I signed for what I get - end of story!

If you want an expat package then go to Emirates, Qatar, Etihad whatever but if you want to stay where you come from accept what we get.

[trevfly]

If an Expat joined OUR CX group and found out that locals obtained the same pay as an expatty, would they care? Many expat Aussie guys take LESS pay than local HK F/Os but dont complain.
They want promotion, respect and glory, ulitmatly.

Actually, in KA, pilots with far more experience than their similar seniority CX buddies are paid less than locals in CX (considering loss of licence, years spent learning their trade)

I dont mind either way, as Im here for what I can get, then if I cant get more, Ill become a moron... I mean Mormon, cos only morons can truly accept their fate as mercinary labor in CX or Ka or the other bunch.

Id love to leave, but cannot. So hurt lockerish.

[Liam Gallagher]

Whilst I have no issue with any group within the pilot body trying to improve their lot, I do have an issue with how it is achieved. The ends, do not on this occasion, justify the means.

PW has quite rightly tried to build a better relationship with senior management, notably TT, with limited success. I do not see how accusing TT and/or the company he controls of engaging in racial discrimination advances his chances of forming any working relationship. To make this claim you would have to absolutely certain of your grounds.

I would recommend PW (or anyone else advancing this argument) bangs Racial Discrimination Ordinance into google and read some of the commentary. The HK Govt's advice to employers is illuminating. Based on presumably s13 of the Ordinance, it would seem the payment of expat terms does not constitute a breach, so long as the skills required are not available in HK.

The AOA's FAQ's would have us believe this is a convenient loophole, when it seems the RDO specifically allows for the payment of expat terms. I think the AOA are spinning this one a bit hard.

[cxlinedriver]

CX gave a female, local FO three shots at Command (letting her through in the end). Round-eyed lads were **** canned after two attempts at Command.

Only after this was raised with the company (and the injustice and possible bad-press explained) has the company now decided to review the status of these non-local, non-chick pilots.

But, they have to go through sim sessions, PCA Tech interviews, additional line checks etc etc before it is decided if they are to get a third go at Command.

[Cpt. Underpants]

THREE ATTEMPTS?

On joining, Noel J explained, very clearly, that you had one shot and one shot only.

Emphasis was added by showing you a ticket home with your name on it.

Woosies.

[12wheeler]

I think she got through at the second attempt, Not third.

[SMOC]

A CX TALE

ORGANISATIONAL CONDITIONING-A CX TALE
-----------------------------------------

Eight CX A scale pilots were put in a room. In the middle of the room was a ladder, leading to a bunch of COS's hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a A scaler tried to climb the ladder; all the A scalers were threatened with B scale, which made them miserable.

Soon enough, whenever a A scaler pilot attempted to climb the ladder, all of the other A scalers, not wanting to be threatened, set upon him and beat him up.

Soon, none of the eight A scalers ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original A scalers is then removed, and a new B scaler is put in the room.

Seeing the improved COS and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other pilots are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other pilots fall upon him and beat him silly.

He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.

A second original A scaler is removed and replaced. The new B scaler again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other pilots hammer the hell out of him. This includes the previous new B scaler, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other pilots are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new B scaler.

One by one, all the original A scalers are replaced. Eight new B scalers are now in the room. None of them have ever been threatened with SLS. None of them attempts to climb the ladder.

All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new B scale / Freighter / DEC / DEF/O or Local pilot who tries, without having any idea why.

AND THAT'S HOW ANY COMPANY'S POLICIES/PROCESS GETS ESTABLISHED!

[EXEZY]

I see that Nick Rhodes is quoted in the SCMP today, he says that the housing allowance has reduced from 100% of pilots being eligible in 1988 to 46% currently and that the expat housing allowance should not continue indefinately! He says that the trend of reducing housing allowance in percentage terms of HK based pilots should continue.
It is obvious then that management and the AOA are working together. They have used the LEP'S as a pawn in this game, appealing to the greedy nature of a few vocal members in this group. It seems greed and Hong Kong go hand in hand. The race card is pathetic at best, considering that a few of the cadets are westerners themselves. It's also guaranteed to drum up media interest and hence the interest of the Hong Kong people who will be aghast at this percieved persecution of this particular group.
As the housing policy is up for renewal at the end of this year, I feel very concerned at the implications of this for us all. It is quite obvious what will be put forward, a much reduced cash allowance, no doubt based on rank, cadet or non cadet. If this happens watch the flood gates open, I believe people will flee from this place like the proverbial sinking ship. This will be the legacy of the greed of a few people, who no doubt would probably complain if their housing policy kitty was dipped into to pay the people on the London, Sydney, Vancouver, Adelaide, Melbourne, etc bases for exactly the same priviledge which they now contend to be their's. I'm not saying that all LEP'S are implicated in this, I know because I've flown with a few who think the whole thing is mad.

[Dixi Normus]

Why is everyone calling each other greedy? You wouldn't be at CX if it wasn't for greed.
Remember this:

[I]"Greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind." Gorden Gekko

[workingman303]

At the end of the day the only way the pay and conditions for the LEPs will change is if lots leave or no-one joins. So if all the LEPs got trained up, got some experience and then quit for greener pastures, the company would have to change the LEP pay and conditions. Until that happens, nothing will change.

What happened when B scale was introduced, a deluge of applications.
What happened when the S/O option was introduced, a deluge of applications.
What happened when the international cadet programme was introduced, 17000+ applications so far.

Thee will always be someone wanting a job here at what the company is prepared to offer at the time. It is that simple. If no-one applies then the the company sweetens the package, though it hasn't needed to yet.

[geh065]

CX gave a female, local FO three shots at Command (letting her through in the end). Round-eyed lads were **** canned after two attempts at Command.

Only after this was raised with the company (and the injustice and possible bad-press explained) has the company now decided to review the status of these non-local, non-chick pilots.

But, they have to go through sim sessions, PCA Tech interviews, additional line checks etc etc before it is decided if they are to get a third go at Command.

So what you are saying is that expats have to go through the same hoops to get their commands as the locals?

...and yes she passed 2nd attempt, like so many other people, expat and non-expat!

[crwjerk]

Equal pay for equal job I reckon.

[Capt Toss Parker]

Back in the day Cathay hired from a known pool of excellence & professionalism and this pool was the Air Force as well as experienced heavy jet pilots from all over the world. ( Second best to the Air force )

Today CX hire any ding bat G.A. pilot and local cadet to make up the numbers and it shows.

Our skills, determination, knowledge, experience & tenacity were the foundations that CX was built on. Without us there never would have been an airline in Hong Kong.

WE WERE WORTH OUR A SCALE WAGES & THEN SOME

The people they hire now would be better of working in McDonald's, no recruit will ever compare to the talented individuals that were selected during my era.

So there should be a pay scale based on Skill & Experience like there was previously. COS 08 we'll let me explain some other time.

[bartholomewrose]

Reminds me of the AFAP going for a 29% pay increase back in 1989.
The Cadets in Cathay should show some responsibility for their actions, and accept the fact that they agreed to their conditions of service, and signed on the line.

Should the cadets break their contracts for improved conditions... by the same logic, I should get A-scale.
Equal pay for equal work.... isn't that right boys ?

The cathay cadets have had the easiest run in aviation history. All training paid for, no time in regional airlines, straight into a heavy jet on a good salary, and no time having to wash planes in some outback hellhole waiting for the chance to fly a C210.... and at the same time, no bond to worry about, so you can leave anytime you like !! (take the hint...?)

The cadets got all their training paid for... so to make everything equal... perhaps I should invoice cathay for my training costs.
But the cadets will say that it was my choice to pay for my own training.....
You're damn right it was my choice !!!.
And it was your choice to sign your conditions of service...., but in the Cadet world you don't take responsibility for your own actions (like signing a legal document)... if you don't like your contract 5 years down the track... just cry "RACISM", and ask for a massive pay rise outside your contract.

And shame on the AOA for supporting them, and putting the conditions of service of all the other pilots are risk.

So here is my suggestion.
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISIONS, or RESIGN.

[hongkongfooey]

CX gave a female, local FO three shots at Command (letting her through in the end). Round-eyed lads were **** canned after two attempts at Command

At KA a certain female nearly lost a 747 at Manchester ( scraped 3 pods ) punishment....A330 command ( OK, I admit, that IS punishment :ouch:
A certain expat took off with the wrong r/w loaded in the FMGC, next time he made a slip up....demotion.

Back in the day Cathay hired from a known pool of excellence & professionalism and this pool was the Air Force as well as experienced heavy jet pilots from all over the world

20 hours in a Moth, 200 hours flying night medium haul over Europe, narrowly escaping the landing accidents that took out your comrades, topped off with the people management skills of Stalin, excellence and professionalism ? pull the other one Capt Parker ( with the greatest of respect, of course )

[cxlinedriver]

'The Cadets in Cathay should show some responsibility for their actions, and accept the fact that they agreed to their conditions of service, and signed on the line.'

By this logic none of the A Scalers should be working past 55.

I support anyone who is pushing for an improvement in their conditions. What the Cadet pilots are trying to do just that. They probably realize they don't have much chance of a salary increase, so they are pushing for accom allowance.

I also support equal pay for an equal job. However no Cadet pilot is equal to a DESO. Sorry Cadets, but you bring no real experience to the operation (previous command time, operational experience in challenging conditions, real flying (handling) experience). For about the first 5 years you are more of a liability than an asset.

It pisses me off when I fly with a new Cadet SO. What I see day to day is scary: No situation awareness, no terrain awareness, inability to make a simple position report correctly. Cadet SOs are cleared to the line without the most basic of skills. So YOU DO NOT DESERVE EQUAL PAY, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL TO A QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED PILOT.

[geh065]

So YOU DO NOT DESERVE EQUAL PAY, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL TO A QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED PILOT.

They meet the standard required of them, otherwise the CAD would not sign off their licences so they ARE doing the same job. Whether or not they operate to your own personally preferred standard is something different.

[1200firm]

An aviation career handed to you on a silver platter,no training bond,only 3 months notice if you wish to leave. If you want expat perks then go & work in the sandpit,or the cesspit.
I'd love to be on A scale, for example, but that is never going to happen & I don't bitch about it so I recommend that you HTFU.(In the immortal words of that great prophet Chopper Reid.)
Equal pay for equal work? Gimme a break.

[hongkongfooey]

They meet the standard required of them, otherwise the CAD would not sign off their licences

Not too sure about the integrity of the CAD Geh, after all they let some of the morons at HKA continue to operate :hmm:

[cxlinedriver]

Giving a position report correctly is hardly 'own personally preferred standard'. It is not hard to use the radio correctly. Not doing so shows a lack of professionalism.

Holding a HKG CAD licence doesn't mean ****. Of the four ATPLs I hold, my Hong Kong licence is the only one I am not proud off. It is the only one that I feel I didn't really earn (Vol 8s and a repeat of a few exams copied from the UK just to keep some Hong Kong prick employed at the CAD does not count as earning a real licence).

Cadet SOs are not doing the same job. I seriously believe that most of them can't. They do not have the knowledge, experience or training to perform the same job. Remember we aren't there for when everything is going well. We are there to save all on board when the **** hits the fan. The complete wankers who manage CX are just filling seats with their SOs selection and training programme. They hope nothing goes wrong. It is not the Cadets' fault the so many of them are so useless, they are just the product of the CX system (maximum profits, to hell with everything else).

[bartholomewrose]

To cxlinedriver... - I take your point with regards to A-scale. I would love to be on it as well, but it was in the company's interest to retain them, and their interest to stick around. So, whilst it was annoying that they went back to B-scale, the situation was mutually beneficial, and negotiated without any of the emotive conflict that seems to be getting underway with the cadet housing issue.

In regards to the cadets skill level. I really can't comment. I'm not perfect, and neither are they.

To my mind, as I stressed in the previous post, it comes down to personal integrity. The cadets signed their contracts, and they should take responsibility for this.
I, of course, would love to see a pay rise. And will support the AOA in a structured discussion with the company about it.
What I will not do, is engage in outrageous claims of racism and prejudice, in order to win a benefit to which I am not entitled, and which most would consider an unreasonable increase in renumeration.

[bin-gou_bin-gou]

New pilots joining the team ... part of life.
THE ACES ..... you deserve BETTER, go find something BETTER.

[betpump5]

Captain Toss er

Our skills, determination, knowledge, experience & tenacity were the foundations that CX was built on. Without us there never would have been an airline in Hong Kong.
You flew a plane from A to B in what I hope was a safe and professional manner. Well done, have a medal. But don't even try for one second to make it sound like you had a direct hand in making Cathay what is it today. A company that weathered the storm of SARS and the Financial Crisis. You did a job, took the rewards when they were plentiful and moaned and groaned like the other scum here when the going got tough.

no recruit will ever compare to the talented individuals that were selected during my era.If they are anything like you, then you can keep them. :ok:

I've had the priviledge of flying with the products of our cadet scheme who have performed their job well. Perhaps I made them feel comfortable from the second I met them before the flight by extending a handshake and a smile.

Perhaps your bad experiences occured because when they first met you, you stuck your nose up at them, rolled your eyes, sighed and made some derogatory comment under your breath. It must be the old chip on the shoulder you have carried since you got promoted within the RAF back in "your era". What were you? Wing Commander? Group Captain. Air Commodore even?

[fire wall]

hey penis pump, ever heard of sarcasm ?

[crwjerk]

Sounds like he hasn't.!!!!!!

[mephisto88]

I luuurve watching fishing - especially when they snag a feisty one.
Great work Toss, better than the Daily Sketch:ok:.

[LongExcursion]

Are any of you fellows Cathay insiders? Was wondering who looked after their Super annuation funds and what their comparative performance has been like over the past 5 years. Our expat colleagues there seem to be the envy of many of us in terms of total remuneration, I was curious as to whether it applied wholesale. Speaking for our Emirates fund returns, they have been rubbish and continue to be so even with 12 months of supposed global rebounding.

[Captain Dart]

I'll pay that one, Captain Toss! :D ...hey, where did your post go?

If those heaping abuse on 'The Management' and 'Capt Toss Parker', not bright enough to understand irony when they see it, are actually Cathay Pacific cockpit crew...then God help us all! :rolleyes:

[nitpicker330]

Hey Geh065

How many sectors did "she" get first time and then second time?

Did she like flying the A340 above Rec max? I know the skipper wasn't too chuffed

[crwjerk]

LongExcursion
It's off topic, but in short, our Provident is managed by 'Fidelity".
We have control over which funds we invest in. Although, the choice is somewhat limited. Returns will be different for everybody, depending on where they're invested.
Soon to be managed to HSBC.