a place for the iPad in Aviation? [Archive]

flyprototype

10th Feb 2010, 09:10

with the coming out of the iPad in March 2010, do you think this kind of gadget has his place in a cockpit?

can you read charts on it?
GPS? maybe on a latter model...
on the 320, maybe a cool tool to calculate Vspeeds and perfs knowing it has 10 hours battery.!(still it need to be authorized, I know!)

CAT1 REVERSION

10th Feb 2010, 10:11

with the coming out of the iPad in March 2010

Has it been in the closet long :E

Many operators use EFB's for perf/plates etc, so I doubt the ipad will have a place. I'm sure many will use it and many apps will appear, but the regulatory loop holes for approval to use an ipad for calculating Vspds - I doubt that will ever happen.....

Maybe useful for reference and GA though!!!!

DBate

10th Feb 2010, 10:56

Apples tech specifications for the iPad state a maximum operating altitude of 10.000'.

Having mentioned that, I guess there would be a problem getting the iPad certified as a stand alone electronic flightbag system, especially in regard to a possible decompression...

hugel

10th Feb 2010, 11:01

Type 1 EFB anyone ? I have always been wary of touch-sensitive screens in aircraft, but for non-critical functions that don't directly affect aircraft operation, is there any reason why not. The main issue is actually holding the thing, I expect to see a range of kneepads developed especially for the ipad. You heard it here first :ok:

I have been waiting for a device such as this for a long time (for ground use) and I am amazed it has taken so long to appear...

hugel

rasobey

10th Feb 2010, 11:03

I am not a pilot.

Remember, the iPad is just a large iPod Touch - don't you fellas carry on that sort of equipment anyway? There is no phone transceiver, no GPS, 3G is optional. The only built in communication system is wireless which you can probably turn off.

I wouldn't like to rely on one in a hurry, anyway!

bumba

10th Feb 2010, 11:20

... good to watch The Simpsons! :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Simpsons_FamilyPicture.png

KiloMikePapa

10th Feb 2010, 11:42

A very disappointing device: no full OS X so no true multitasking except for Apple's own applications :ugh:! Nice try but absolutely no cigar. It really is a big iPod Touch including all the limitations of that platform :{

But I do love my MacBook Pro!

Denti

10th Feb 2010, 12:03

It actually has GPS, but only if you order the 3G version as the GPS funcitonality is integrated into the 3G chip.

However i have to say i do not see any real use of the iPad in the cockpit except helping with the boredom on long sectors, it's use as an EFB are severely limited by its platform, design and closed software environment.

Captain Smithy

10th Feb 2010, 12:22

Pointless, completely useless overpriced gadget for poseur big kids with a lot of disposable income and absolutely no sense/intelligence whatsoever. No doubt filled with idiotic, childish "apps" to show off to like-minded immature simpleton mates. With the ability to play much rubbish music illegally downloaded from t'net. Also complete with various other silly useless gadgety functions of absolutely no use whatsoever to any normal human being except to entertain said braindead users. And to obnoxiously, loudly, antisocially telephone aforementioned mates from various public places, muchly irritating the general public.

Nope. Absolutely no use or place at all in aviation.

Smithy

hugel

10th Feb 2010, 12:40

So... apart from the pointless, completely useless overpriced gadget for poseur big kids with a lot of disposable income and absolutely no sense/intelligence whatsoever; idiotic, childish "apps" to show off to like-minded immature simpleton mates; the ability to play much rubbish music illegally downloaded from t'net.; other silly useless gadgety functions of absolutely no use whatsoever to any normal human being ... what has Apple ever done for us??? :)

hugel

Captain Smithy

10th Feb 2010, 13:07

Flippant remarks aside, I genuinely see absolutely no purpose for the idiotPad whatsoever (much like the idiotPhone, which is merely a smaller version of the same device), in aviation or otherwise.

Okay, so an idiotPad will have several "apps". You'll be able to calculate all those V-Speeds and fuel burn on it, display a plog, view the VFR Scottish half-mil, look up the AIP entry for EGPH and the associated Aerad charts, and it'll have GPS.

The fact is we all get along fine as it is just now, without the idiotPad; all it is is a gadget.

GPS aside, my £15 kneeboard, a pencil and Smithy's grey matter seem to do all of the above listed anyway. Simple, effective enough and much cheaper than an idiotPad.

Smithy

CaptainCurmudgeon

10th Feb 2010, 14:29

http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/1279/1264637379/blutack.jpg

John_Mc

10th Feb 2010, 15:04

kick the tires

10th Feb 2010, 16:05

or jealousy!

Denti

10th Feb 2010, 20:34

Okay, so an idiotPad will have several "apps". You'll be able to calculate all those V-Speeds and fuel burn on it, display a plog, view the VFR Scottish half-mil, look up the AIP entry for EGPH and the associated Aerad charts, and it'll have GPS.

Actually, if it could do that it would be a very big advantage indeed. Using a consumer device that costs less than a 1000$ instead of a military grade pen tablet pc for 5000€ a piece (our current EFB solution) would be economically viable. However it does not even pack the required computing power so it won't be able to, too bad :(

Captain Smithy

11th Feb 2010, 06:40

Captain Smithy,

Totally agree with you about the idiotPad, but as an "idiotPhone" owner I can tell you that you are totally wrong with your assumptions about the iPhone. I can tell straight away that you've never used one for more than a few minutes, so your opinion of it is based purely on ignorance.

John

Tried my friend's idiotPhone a while back, had all sorts of fancy gadgets on it... Internet, GPS, camera, "apps" etc. All very clever but I couldn't find any use for it myself. Perhaps I just don't get it. Speaking of "apps" there was one which displayed water on the screen and if you tapped your finger on the screen the water would splash as though it was real. And there was another that when you tapped the screen it made different farting sounds. All very mature stuff :hmm: Apparently he pays £35 a month for it. Seems a bit expensive for a mere toy. :suspect:

Back on topic, flippant mode off - Denti (and others who have experience of EFB) - out of interest how do you find EFB compared to what you had before? Do you find it better to use than having paperwork, charts etc. around the flight deck? Is that the main advantage or are there others?

Smithy

Wizofoz

11th Feb 2010, 06:57

Wouldn't mind betting you'll soon be able to mount one one the panel of a glider and have it give you comprehensive navigation and performance information.

They've had similar apps for PDAs for years- this at least should have a superior display and processor speed.

Kelly Hopper

11th Feb 2010, 07:04

EFB's certainly make the cockpit tidy compaired to having all those charts everywhere. That is until you can't find what you are looking for so get the charts out anyway. 'Tis an interesting tool for long flights, if just to relieve the boredom a little. There is only so much "patience" you can play though!

The argument re ipad reminds me of the Americans spending millions, (billions?) and many years, developing a pen that would write in space, in all dimensions.
The Russians took a pencil!

parabellum

11th Feb 2010, 08:44

It is already out in Oz but I don't hear people raving about it, correction, one person, but he admits he has got for it's games ability etc., nothing much else.

Fuel_on_Mixture_Rich

11th Feb 2010, 09:31

Working in the semiconductor industry as an engineer, I can say that the industrial touchscreen controllers / tablet PC's used in the industry for controlling VERY expensive equipment and processes are robust, but not immune from occasional lock-ups or crashes. Some run windows NT or XP, a few run OS/2, some are even DOS based but none have been immune from these issues.

Bearing in mind that these are bought primarily for the fact that they are robust pieces of kit and they have a (usually very) good MTBF we're charged accordingly. I know that all the Apple / mac users out there are going to tell me that "if it was a mac, it wouldn't crash". That may be, but in a very high reliability / very high utilisation environment, kit like the iPad is unproven. There's a world of difference between personal use, industrial use (my area) and aerospace / defence applications, and it's not a linear relationship.

Basically, I think kit like the iPad might be a bit of a laugh in the cockpit of a C152 / PA-28 but is so far removed from anything in commercial aviation as to be an irrelevance.

Just so I can't be accused of being an apple hater, I do own a 5th Gen. iPod and I do quite like it! :} But I do understand people who say that apple are primarily a form / design company with a few techie bits thrown in for good measure!

Denti

11th Feb 2010, 09:56

The EFBs i've come across so far are usually standard Windows XP pen tablets, however in my outfit we now operate the second military spec rugged platform of that kind. Main reason is that they hope to get lower repair and replacement bills than with our first platform (a standard HP tablet PC), main reason is that they have to withstand quite a wide range of different temperatures, vibration levels and shock from falling down, not to mention moisture. Since those things are now rugged PCs they are quite heavy and bad to handle in a cramped cockpit like the 737, so most of us are looking forward to the promised EFB II fixed installation where everything is fixed to the airplane and not manually handled by us. Documentation is allready only available in electronic form including the AFM, apparently a dual EFB-installation is quite enough to satisfy the regulator, dispatch with only one working EFB is approved, the EFB has to be stowed below 1000ft AGL.

smallfry

11th Feb 2010, 11:07

Its out in Australia?... I don't think so... It is not going to be shipped anywhere until end of March....

D O Guerrero

11th Feb 2010, 12:25

I don't know about feeling the need to show everyone my iphone - but there are certainly a lot of captains who are intrigued enough to ask if they can have a look at the apps on it.
Smithy - Have you taken that giant leap into the 80's and bought a VCR or a microwave yet?
Why are people so rabidly for or against these things? If you don't like it - don't do it!
As regards the ipad - I can think of one reasonable use for it... Reference. My company issues all manuals electronically. Having that search option available on the flightdeck would be occasionally useful. But then I can do that on the iphone too, just on a smaller screen.

hugel

11th Feb 2010, 12:37

I am not an Apple fan, but I have an iphone, which is crap as a mobile telephone. Being touch sensitive there is no tactile feedback either of key position or activation. In the old days one could stride purposefully through the Angel with a clunky Nokia texting your friends with one hand that you were running late. Try doing that with an iphone and you will hit the first lamppost you encounter. (ie it ruins your situational awareness :ugh:)

The best feature of the iphone is the SMS speech-bubble interface. It makes SMS into conversations that are visible and can be scrolled! "I refer the honourable girlfriend to the excuse I made earlier." becomes a real possibility...

hugel

KiloMikePapa

11th Feb 2010, 13:32

But I do understand people who say that apple are primarily a form / design company with a few techie bits thrown in for good measure!

Must be one of the oldest myths around in IT land. A Mac/OS X computer is at least on the same technological level as anything Microsoft sells on PCs these days. In fact, that Mac/OS X combination is technologically very comparable to a UNIX/Linux system since OS X is based on Mach, FreeBSD and NetBSD. Don't let the ease of use of a Mac fool you: behind the screens there is a very modern, powerful and reliable operating system. And that is why a full OS X could have made the iPad so much more interesting and useful!

And what is wrong with a well designed, good looking computer :confused:?

I have been using PCs with Microsoft operating systems and Linux since a long time but when my portable PC was stolen one day I 'confiscated' my wife's Macintosh and since then I have never felt the need to go back to a PC/Windows system. For professional reasons I do need the ability to run my customer's Windows applications but this was easily provided by running a virtual Windows system on my Mac using VMWare's Fusion software.

Johan

PS It's always nice and good to have a choice whatever your preference is!

parabellum

11th Feb 2010, 19:10

Its out in Australia?... I don't think so... It is not going to be shipped anywhere until end of March....

That is a blow Smallfry, now I'm going to have to explain to the guy that showed it to me last Saturday that he hasn't really got one at all!!!

(It probably didn't arrive by a 'recognised' route).;)

TURIN

11th Feb 2010, 23:07

So, from what I hear so far, the ipad is of no use in the cockpit but has some entertainment value, can be used by a child or pensioner, can play games and view films, download the latest newspapers/magazines and weighing a pound & a half will slide into a pocket roughly the size of an inflight magazine.

Now, what possible use could it have in aviation???????:8:ok:

parabellum

12th Feb 2010, 03:28

(http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com.au%2Fnews%2Fhardware%2Fsoa%2F Aussies-get-iPad-in-March-can-t-confirm-3G%2F0%2C130061702%2C339300636%2C00.htm%3FomnRef%3Dhttp%3A%2 F%2Fwww.google.ie%2Fsearch%3Fhl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls% 3Den%26hs%3DLyf%26q%3Dipad%2520release%2520date%2520australi a%26btnG%3DSearch%26meta%3D%26aq%3Df%26oq%3D)Aussies get iPad in March, 'can't confirm' 3G - News - Hardware - ZDNet Australia (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com.au%2Fnews%2Fhardware%2Fsoa%2F Aussies-get-iPad-in-March-can-t-confirm-3G%2F0%2C130061702%2C339300636%2C00.htm%3FomnRef%3Dhttp%3A%2 F%2Fwww.google.ie%2Fsearch%3Fhl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls% 3Den%26hs%3DLyf%26q%3Dipad%2520release%2520date%2520australi a%26btnG%3DSearch%26meta%3D%26aq%3Df%26oq%3D) (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.com.au%2Fnews%2Fhardware%2Fsoa%2F Aussies-get-iPad-in-March-can-t-confirm-3G%2F0%2C130061702%2C339300636%2C00.htm%3FomnRef%3Dhttp%3A%2 F%2Fwww.google.ie%2Fsearch%3Fhl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls% 3Den%26hs%3DLyf%26q%3Dipad%2520release%2520date%2520australi a%26btnG%3DSearch%26meta%3D%26aq%3Df%26oq%3D)

Fair enough, I'm confused now, I'll be seeing him again tomorrow and find out exactly what he has got, but I could have sworn...............etc.etc.:)

compressor stall

12th Feb 2010, 10:46

Hugel,

Try doing that with an iphone and you will hit the first lamppost you encounter. (ie it ruins your situational awareness )

You obviously have not seen the app that displays the video camera feed as the background with your SMS text over the top so that you can see where you r feet are going on the screen in real time as you text ... :E No more gutters, small dogs, lampposts etc..

fleebag

12th Feb 2010, 10:47

I'm an ex commercial pilot, now software engineer with 15+ years of experience writing real time avionics software. I'll definitely be getting an iPad to go along with my Macbook Pro and iPhone. You'll find many engineers with macs not for the looks but for OS X and its UNIX/BSD base combined with its excellent integration with the hardware. Most of us used windows once upon a time :ugh:

The reason full OS X is not being supplied is due to it's performance on the power efficient processors, have a look at the reviews of how windows 7 is performing on tablets ... not well at all.

Why are so many developers supporting the iPhone/iPad? The App store takes away all the pain of having to set up a commercial site and get customers in. + the huge user base. Apple also produces one of the best development environments money can't buy, it's been free for eons.

Unfortunately due to certification requirements, it's too difficult to get the iPad/iPhone certified as a navigation device due to OS X and the hardware operating limits. The OS would probably have to be qualified to Do-178B Level B or C and Apple would not be interested due to the cost and limited market. However it would make for a great planning and briefing device.

Pilotinmydreams

12th Feb 2010, 11:30