Monarch luton

[smudgethecat]

Here more jobs going, anyone any more gen

[simonchowder]

I hear they are mothballing a hangar until things pick up not sure where exactly, havent they got a facilities at glasgow and manchester as well as luton

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Only 3 hangars at LTN and 1 at MAN.

[fiver]

They say should know something either thursday or friday

[smudgethecat]

It was only a few momths ago they made a lot of guys redundant at MAN and LGW and then had to take on connies on to fill the gaps , i see MTS are actually looking for people at MAN and LTN at present, seems strange

Monarch Technical Support (http://www.mts-ltn.com/Jobs/Jobs.aspx?JobID=7)

[Mr @ Spotty M]

I can answer that question.
The people MTS are after, are not for MAEL at Luton.
All the hangars are at max capacity at the moment with all the work going on.
The problem is from May onwards.

[smudgethecat]

Thanks spotty m, do you think mael are looking to ditch heavy maintenance long term and sub the mal work out to cut costs

[Mr @ Spotty M]

No l don't think it will be MAEL ditching MAL heavy maintenance, however the unthinkable could happen in that MAL might ditch heavy maintenance with MAEL. :{

[simonchowder]

130 jobs going in base maint ive heard today:\

[smudgethecat]

Very sad to see a company as good as MAEL were going down the pan, another nail in the uk heavy maint coffin

[EGT Redline]

Who said anything about going down the pan smudge?? SR Technics recently closed a maintenance facility in DUB and STN with the loss of hundreds of jobs. Are they going down the pan?? No, they are still trading and will continue to do so. MAEL as good as they are are not immune from the effects of the global recession. In the past when times were good MRO's (MAEL included) got away with charging the 'going rate' because the work was always there and airlines were making plenty of money. However, the current downturn has forced operators to take drastic measures as they struggle to survive and this includes getting maintenance done abroad where it can be had on the cheap. Quality does not come into the equation as the bean counters are only interested in meeting the minimum legislative requirements by getting a stamp in the book.

UK based MRO's cost bases are too high at present and they just cannot compete with the third party organisations in Europe and Asia who employ Tom, Dick and Harry off the streets and pay them peanuts. MAEL are having to cut costs and streamline their operation in order to safeguard a future. Work is scarce at the moment and if you are not in a position to put in realistic bids because your overheads are too high then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that you need to make savings to become competitive again. MAEL have an excellent reputation and employ some of the best people in the business. I'd be very surprised if they were to go down the pan and no doubt they'll be around to cash in on the upturn as and when it comes.

[Dodo56]

MAEL are certainly not going down the pan but it's not rocket science - if you can buy heavy maintenance at 50% less per hour overseas and your parent company is suffering in the recession (as we all are) you're going to find it attractive aren't you? Why pay the costs of engineers and hangars all year when you only fully use them for a few months a year? The costs of ferry flights mean this is mostly likely to affect heavy maintenance. I think you'll find in months and years to come more and more MROs in this country will restrict themselves to light/line work.

And don't be too quick to condemn foreign standards of work either. Just because local wages allow them to work for less money doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

I do think it's a sad development, if unsurprising. It's the way of the world now I'm afraid and you needn't expect it to change.

[jethrotull]

[dodo56[/quote]And don't be too quick to condemn foreign standards of work either. Just because local wages allow them to work for less money doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.[dodo56][/quote]

Your statement is not entirely true, Sure local wages are based on domestic legislations. However its not only the 50% wage arbitration that a bean counter has to take into consideration.

Most airlines the likes of Easy et al will have a ontime penalty clause, a daily delay will result in fine of £25k/day, the productivity of these new MRO's are far from desirable to achieve the tight downtimes stipulated by the airline bean counters. It takes nearly 10yrs to get past the learning curve, most of the heavy maint personell in U.K/Ireland are from the defense or Manf background which makes these org efficient.

I believe the availability of Captive facility alongside highly skilled manpower in U.K. will result in some of the more dynamic org ( read Easy, Ryanair) Putting work thru these org, albeit at lower man-hr rates further eroding the wage arbitration the E.Eu MROs have at the moment.

Infact Easy is now schd work at Dublin as ATC is getting busy.

[smudgethecat]

EGT, no doubt about it monarch are a top maintenance provider, however no matter how good they are when it comes to heavy maint how the hell can they compete with for eg eastern european MRO,s who are paying their staff a fraction of uk rates? , labour is a huge chunk of the bill so with the best will in the world western european providers are at a huge disadvantage here .

[Blacksheep]

So, if the eastern europeans have so much spare cheap labour lying about unused, tell me why the nice lady at the Agency phoned me at my desk here in Luton and asked if I was interested in a job in eastern europe where they were short of people with my skills? The pay would have been more than I get right now, here in "High Labour Rate" UK. I must admit,I was tempted.... for a couple of seconds or so.

Eastern european maintenance providers may be snapping up the contracts with fantastic low labour rates and impossibly optimistic down times (e.g. 4 days for a B757 "C" Check!) but then they're out in the market looking for people with "your kind of skills" in order to deliver what they've promised. One wonders how long they can keep such tactics up?

[Dodo56]

Jethrotull and Blacksheep, you make fair points. But the proof of the pudding is in the safe-on-time departure of the aircraft (to coin an awful mixed metaphor). I know of western european airlines who are outsourcing their heavy work eastwards at considerably lower manhour rates and have been happy with the service and standards.

Remember engineers rates are not the whole story. For every licensed guy you can have a number of experienced but unlicensed spanners, and the eastern guys are not short of those. Also the fully absorbed manhour cost rate is typically more than double the individual's pay rate because the overheads of the hangar and the support staff have to be covered. With low overheads and high volume throughput (the Ryanair model, if you like) you can afford to take on some licensed guys at (relatively) high cost to keep your licensed/unlicensed ratio sensible, and enable the volume throughput to cover overheads over a wider cost base.

I doubt this will spell the complete end of heavy maintenance in the UK though. From an MRO's POV they need to keep enough people, skills and approvals to keep the line supported during the main flying season. These people can be deployed on heavies in the low season, but maybe not for the entire fleet as the requirements for manpower will be in excess of what the organisation can supply from its core staff. The likes of MAEL always used to supplement their workforce with connies at these times but it's an expensive way to buy peak labour and the required hangar space, empty for half the year, is also a big cost drain. Their choice shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

[jethrotull]

Dodo56,

The more experienced E.Eu techs are working in W.Eu. Its a natural human tendency to seek better pastures, especially once you have eastablished yourself.

The same will also happen with the staff at these E.Eu MROs. Once they have adequate exp they will demand better wages and bear this in mind that most have a communist background read unionised.

I had met a airline Engg exec from MANH in Dec at a E.Eu MRO in Dec, his words were ''Now i am satisfactorily assured to bring my aircrafts here, having seen you all working for this MRO''. This statement speaks a lot with ref to the decision to go E.Eu. The fears of quality have not subsided as yet.

[Blacksheep]

because the overheads of the hangar and the support staff Sure, and I'd have been part of those overheads had I decided to accept that offer. As you say, its not just the technicians' wages that make up the "labour rate", the overheads are also included - but the Eastern MROs have the benefit of fully depreciated assets inherited from their previously centrally managed economies. State subsidisation via the back door.

[simonchowder]

Monarch had better make sure they handle this round of job cuts a little more carefully than the last ,i hear the ALAE has just won one of the cases brought against them for unfair dismissal

[kevlarcarl]

Great news, read it today in this months tech log, it might just make monarch realise there not above the law and if the choose to behave in the way they did there is financial consequences to be faced as well as very bad company publicity, well done to the ALAE team involved

[EGT Redline]

Those last couple of posts really do highlight how important it is to be a member of a recognised association who will fight your corner when the **** hits the fan. To all the MAEL employees who read these forums, if you are not a member of the ALAE then it might be prudent to sign up asap. Engineers need professional representation from a body who actually know the ins and out of the industry, not some comedy union who's only remit is to take your money. I have never understood why people will happily pay upwards of £11 a month to a union who don't even know what an aircraft maintnance licence is, yet they can't be arsed to fork out £85 a year to the ALAE who will look after their interests. I'm led to believe out of all those guys who were made redundant from MAEL LGW last year, only one was a member of the ALAE. Guess which one got the financial compensation.

Easytech, Flybe and now Virgin have fought long and hard to get professional representation and now have it in the form of the ALAE/Prospect. Lets hope an organisation like MAEL can follow suit.

[smudgethecat]

Dead right ,every licensed engineer should be in the ALAE, especially if your employed by the likes of monarch

[simonchowder]

The people who were involved and were not ALAE members must be rather sick at the moment i would imagine the person who won the case is in line to receive a few bob in compensation

[bvcu]

quite appropriate given that a good few of the original members were employed there , who educated me enough to join over 20 years ago and continue even when overseas . Good luck guys.

[Dodo56]

Awards for unfair dismissal aren't a licence to print money and are generally a great deal less than employing someone for a year, so it's questionable how much of a deterrent they are to employers who really want to shed staff (individually or en masse). In any case a smart employer will read its own rule book before taking any such actions, as more successes in "unfair dismissal" claims relate to procedure than content. Membership of any union or association is no guarantee of the success of a claim if the employer keeps to the rules. Good luck anyhoo.

[TURIN]

......if the employer keeps to the rules.

Aye, and there's the rub!

If they can get away with it, they will. That's why we have TUs in the first place.

Good luck to all at Monarch. :ok:

[big_boeing]

i heard that monarch are moving out of one of there Luton hangers?

Any ideas?

[smudgethecat]

Talking to a mate who works for easy at LTN their busy recruiting all these guys who monarch trained up and are now being given a pay out to leave, easy cannot beleive their luck one of your rivals kindly supplying a pool of trained up experianced engineers, big problem of course for monarch is the best guys as always will be the ones to walk leaving them with the rest, things just go from bad to worse dont they?

[matkat]

Totally agree with the other posts in relation to ALAE membership I have been a member for around 10 years now, though I am a contractor and work in the office I still would never think of leaving its our union after all so we should support it.

[kevlarcarl]

Things cannot be that bad at MAEL, i hear if your a QA auditor you can fly to the maldives book yourself onto a mega exclusive island resort miles away from the engineers and crew for a week, spend thousands of dollars on water taxis, do a ten minute audit and then go home with of course no fears of redundancies/wage cuts hanging over you......no wonder the companies losing money hand over fist

[Whopper]

Office staff and shop floor was always very them and us.
It seems that Luton offices are full of people wandering around with bits of paper justifying there existence.

[smudgethecat]

What on earths going on there,??? the engineering staff are being decimated yet the cling -ons appear to be totally immune from any cuts and can waste money with impunity, you dont have to be mystic meg to see the ends near unless someone very quickly gets a grip on the situation, so glad i got out when i did

[ground_star]

As an Ex-Monarch type, it's sad to hear job losses. I had some happy days in the MAEL hangars @ LTN!

[jethrotull]

Clever Karl, how does it feel joining DHL !!!!