¿Is it the end of the $panish dream?

[RobertSC]

Today, the conditions of the Air Traffic Control in Spain have been modified by law, not by negotiations. The board of ministers, ministers council or whatever is called has change radically the way it was working AENA.

Spanish Official Document (http://www.elpais.com/elpaismedia/diario/media/201002/05/economia/20100205elpepieco_1_Pes_PDF.pdf)

It says that the average gross income was in 2007: 304.874 €, which is 210k euros more than te average salary in 1999 after applying the CPI of 1999 to 2007.

The salaries will be reduced by more than a 40%, putting spain in the average of the EU, in words of the Minister Jose Blanco.

And the hours of work will be now 1750, instead of 1200. So, no more extra duties probably needed. (which is said to be more than half of the salary of the controllers) In fact, the 900k € controller which is always being remided had 700k in extra duties and the rest was the basic salary. So the reduction will be very very hard.

The average basic salary for the controllers (no extraduties) in words of the Controller Union (USCA) speaker (http://www.cadenaser.com/economia/audios/entrevista-ventana-portavoz-union-sindical-controladores-aereos-usca-rafael-lopez-primera-parte-2010/seresc/20100204csrcsreco_5/Aes/) (it is a radio interview in Spanish) is 130k € gross, will that be the new average salary now?


Let's see what happens in the following days.

[pamplinas]

Hi,

I'm a spanish atc and I'm still stunned with the government action. Of course it is clearly an ilegal line of action, since there was no labor conflict nor strike threat. This law violates all agreements, spanish labour law and even the Constitution. They justify this action on the general interest and on the difficulty they found in negotiations around the overtime agreements.

As you should probably know by now, we are severely understaffed, and since our worktime is 1200h/year (not very different from other countries, isn't it?), our ANSP relies in paying expensive overtime hours to meet the increasing traffic demand. This agreements made our salaries rocket, just as our working hours did (up to 1800 per year or even more).

They decided recently our salaries were causing navigation fees to rise and provoking finantial trouble to our company. The latter hard to believe, since navigation deficit was less than are 300millon€ this year and AENA's dept rises well above 13.000million€. So they called upon us in order to negociate a new agreement that should severely cut costs. Negotiations were running, although it soon came clear AENA was aiming far higher (they sought to eliminate most of our labor achivements, not just overtime costs) and that they already had a hidden agenda.

Things came clear last tuesday when AENA broke negotiatios suddenly. Our union declared our firm intention to keep doors open to further talks and our clear commitment to avoid any action against traffic flow (especially regarding incoming easter holidays). AENA accused us of blocking negotiations with unreasonable demands and having bad faith in the whole process.

On friday, the government publishes urgently this decree-law: a law enacted by the government due to urgent needs that, although firm and applicable from the begining, must pass through parlliament in a month or so.

This law wipes out most of our labor rights, increasing our worktime (1750h, mandatory), reducing salary, denying retirements for the next 3 years...
It also introduces the possibility of new ANSP offering TWR control, AFIS, new ways of disciplinary action, recruitment of new atcos at AENA's single choice...

I really think that the Government's bad faith in this matter is clear. Such law cannot be prepared in just two days. They definitively had no intention to negotiate anything at all.

In the meantime, the media campaign is runnig hard. Many people praise this hard-hand politics being used against such overpaid and arrogant workers. Scareingly, it reminds me of some actions taken recently by Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Government popularity may rise a bit, this controversy will work well as a distraction for a while, but in the meantime our country has several acute problems waiting for direct action (have any of you read any recent economic news about Spain?).

There are also many other dirty deeds being used by the government against us. USCA's web has been seriously atacked by hackers (not amateurs, precisely), and we really suspect many conversations of union leaders are being monitored.

Fortunately, spanish trade unions have hit the roof with this news. They fear this kind of ilegal action could be used against any workers considered a threat to the general interest (whatever the government decides it is).

USCA has announced legal action and is also studying further actions.

I would personally recomend the rest of atco unions in Europe to stay alert and study our case. Next one could be anyone.

[killua]

Just wondering, what will be spanish ATC-s next course of action?

[Data Dad]

Pamplinas,

I am completely taken aback by your Governments actions and totally disagree with those actions.

However, you wrote:

As you should probably know by now, we are severely understaffed, and since our worktime is 1200h/year (not very different from other countries, isn't it?),I work in the UK for the largest ATC provider here - NATS. ATCO's in NATS work to one of two 'working times' either 1820 hours per year - which excludes meal breaks or 2080 hours which includes meal breaks. The unit at which you work decides which of the two applies. Both those figures btw, are before annual leave entitlements are taken, and equate to either a 35hr or 40hr week.

So 1200hrs is not at all comparable to the UK ATCO.

DD

[LH2]

For those interested on a bit of background on this issue, I have posted a brief critique of a well-read Times article in another post (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/402804-spanish-atcos-800k-euros.html#post5458715). Any Spanish ATCOs or anyone else knowledgeable out there are welcome to correct any factual errors I may have made.

Now, from my personal point of view as a pilot who occasionally flies in Spanish airspace, I would have no beef with AENA controllers being paid whatever if they were worth it. As it stands however, they consistently manage to pull off the worst controlling this side of the Med, to say the least.

From the very limited sample of Spanish controllers I've met in social or flying settings, it does not reassure me that they're capable of kicking up such as stink when their bottom line is involved, while safety issues (such as controller training) are met with complete passivity. With a few notable exceptions (IME found mostly in the South, at the likes of LEZL, LEMG, LEJR, ...and LXGB :E), I don't think these people should be working in a position of responsibility at all in any industry, let alone earning a high salary.

In the past when I have had an issue with controllers in Spain I've dealt with it by means of a telephone conversation with the tower involved and/or a chat with the relevant people at operations, on the advice of local pilots who tell me that filing occurrence reports doesn't get you anywhere. I am thinking, however, that such reports may fall on more sympathetic ears these days, so from now on I will start sending those every time I feel safety has been compromised... and I'll Cc them to the Infrastructure Minister just for good measure.

In other words, I can hardly fault the Spanish government for not feeling they're getting their money's worth out of AENA controllers. Just my opinion, you're welcome to disagree :cool:

[p_perez]

Hi there!

I´m an Spanish ATCO currently working in one of the 5 ACC of our ATC network. Hope you don´t mind ifI keep my name concealed: don´t want to be sent to another city by force, or even risk been fired by my company.

This is now possible due to the decree-law published by our goverment yesterday friday. I thought that I could provide more information about our new working situation. I´ll just try to be straight, without adding my opinion. I´ll leave that to you.

Since yesterday we have to work 1750 a year, before it was 1200. Also, during our morning or evening services, our mandatory rest-time gets reduced from 33% to 25%, and in the nocturnal services from 50% to 33%. It means that not only we get a 550 hour increase every year, also the % of actual working time is been increased. We con be obliged to work overtime up to 80 hours more at the request of our company officials. One of my TWR colleagues told me this morning that in his case all this means he will have to work 22-23 days in one month, more than any Spanishd employee.

We now can´t discuss any direct order from the non-ATCO personel from AENA regarding procedures, open sectors or runways, LVP, sector capacity, etc ..., under the penalty of been punished (sent to another city or fired, as I already said). This didn´t start yesterday: in last december for example, an airport in the East of Spain remained open without a single instrument for app: ILS, the 2 VOR´s, all U/S. AENA bosses knew this since 12:00, and didn´t update the NOTAM UNTIL 20:00. I´ve heard that my colleagues at the TACC and TWR responsible for the app had a lot of "fun" that day.

AENA will let us know or schedules 10 days before, not the old 90 days before we had until now, and even so, they can change those schedules the day before as they wish: for example, if I have to work tomorrow evening from 15:00 to 22:00, I can receive a call from AENA to tell me to go to work from 08:00 to 15:00. Mandatory.

Retirement has been suspended for the next 3 years: people over 52 could retire if they had already worked for more than 30 yrs. Now that is not possible: we call it "el corralito", like in Argentina, when the goverment didn´t allow you to take your money from banks.

[radarman]

If this is true, it's an absolutely appalling situation. The sort of thing that I imagined only went on in the darkest of third world countries. I think most of us have been astounded at the level of Spanish controllers' salaries, but that is not the fault of the controllers. It sounds as though the government is doing what governments (in fact all management) do best - making a b@lls up and then blaming and punishing others as a smoke screen to hide its own incompetence. Don't you just love politicians!

Strangely though, I've just been coordinating traffic with a colleague at LECS and he seems full of good cheer.

[LH2]

If this is true

Aye, there is the rub. For example:

Since yesterday we have to work 1750 a year

And how many hours were worked, on average, last year per controller? I gather it's not far from that (probably slightly more)--the difference being that now you will not get the overtime rate for those extra hours which you, on average, have been working anyway (and thus one hopes, proving that you were confident you could do so within the rules and without affecting safety).

So you're guaranteed all of an almost 35hr week in a country with ~20% unemployment rate and you're complaining? :ok:

radarman,

I think most of us have been astounded at the level of Spanish controllers' salaries, but that is not the fault of the controllers.

From what I've heard that is wide open to debate. For example, what is, and what has historically been the position of the controller's union regarding workforce expansion?

The problem is that in Spain this is a job which attracts a certain type of person, and most definitely not the one who goes into it for the love of aviation.

As I said, give that kind of money to French, British, German, Croatian, or even Italian controllers and I won't say a word. It's the cost/value ratio that bothers me, and the hypocrisy of throwing such a tantrum when it comes to their salaries while as a group they never did anything to improve the safety or the efficiency of the astonishingly poor service they provide.

Finally, as I understand it, the reason behind the swift action by the Spanish government was to prevent the controllers from carrying out their threats of going on strike over the Easter holidays. Doing so in a broke country which has tourism as one of its main sources of income would be frankly irresponsible (now one can say it's not the controllers fault that their country is in the gutter, but two wrongs don't make a right, etc.)

No wonder some of them take to advertising their "plight" on a British forum. Spanish public opinion is, shall we say, less than receptive :E

No skin off my nose, but I thought I would give a bit of perspective.

[PeltonLevel]

Seems to me that it was c:eek::eek:p management that got AENA into its present position and it seems to be c:eek::eek:p management trying to get out of it!

I can't imagine why NATS had its unconsummated love affair with them a couple of years ago!

[pamplinas]

Data Dad,

taken from Eurocontrol ACE Benchmark report 2007:

ATCO hours on duty (avarage per year)
AENA 1800
NATS 1434
DFS 1245
DSNA 1328

However I guess things may have change, or maybe you were not considering operational time hours only.

LH2,

I will not take this thread to another discusion about spanish ATC's value. We all now how it would end up.
Anyway, I'd like to remark that our Union has constantly demanded AENA to recruit new atcos for the last 10 years repeatedly. There's clear evidence in every single minute of our meetings with AENA, who has broken many agreements on the subject.
Of course spanish public opinion is far away from our side, but, I must say, I don't consider this forum represents precisely an easy audience. Please don't take it as an offence.

[p_perez]

Hey there, LH2:

just wondering, did any of my colleagues happen to steal a girlfriend from you in the past? Seriously now, I think some kind of negative bias can be detected in your writting, and there must be some reason for it, no?

Well, it looks like if you should start by reading any of the Performance Reports from EUROCONTROL. There are not that manuy drawings as in a comic book, but if you give it a try, I´m sure even you´ll get to something ...


As you can see from the data from my colleague, the number of hrs/yr in Spain are far more higher than in the rest of the main european ATC service providers. For your knowledge, in the Spanish amount of hrs. training is not included; the french include more than 100 hrs. of training, in the rest I´m not sure so I wont say anything. The 1800 hrs of 2007 in Spain were not mandatory, only 1200, the rest were overtime and not everyone worked them (I didn´t). Now we will have to work 1750 hrs mandatory, and that is insane if you consider safety.


Finally, as I understand it, the reason behind the swift action by the Spanish government was to prevent the controllers from carrying out their threats of going on strike over the Easter holidays.
Well, here you are not well informed (and this is only an euphemism). We were not on strike, as we have never been on strike since 1986. In fact, we had expressed our intention to cooperate with AENA so that neither companies nor customers suffer any problem with their Eastern holydays. There was an agreement valid until march 30th by which Spanish controllers secured overtime hours necessary to attend the rise in the demand of air traffic. So there was enough time to achieve a new agreement (almost 2 months), and the Spanish control union USCA had already presented plans for a 30% reduction in the salaries. But there was never any intention on the side of AENA nor the Spanish goverment to reach a deal good enough for both sides. The decree-law published last friday 5th is abusive, anticonstitutional, and violates the current agreement between AENA and its controllers, as well as the Spanish Workers´Statute. And the Spanish goverment knows this, but they also know that Justice in Spain is very slow, and very influenceable. In the time we would need to prove the unfairness of this decree-law they are going to rip AENA into small pieces and sell it as they wish and fits their interest.


From what I've heard that is wide open to debate. For example, what is, and what has historically been the position of the controller's union regarding workforce expansion?
There you go, once again, wonder were you get your "information" (again, another euphemism) from ...
USCA has been demanding new controllers from AENA for the past 10 years. We are now almost 2400, but only a bit less than 1800 operational, the rest is on office duties. In comparison, France has 4000 operational controllers. AENA has prefered to pay expensive overtime instead of selecting, training and hiring new controllers (from the economic point of view for the company, it was much cheaper).
... in a country with ~20% unemployment rate ...
I supose you agree with me it would have been better to have hired more controllers in the past, don´t you?


... as a group they never did anything to improve the safety or the efficiency of the astonishingly poor service they provide.
No problem here, coming from someone like you, I wont take this personal.


BTW, they haven´t started yet distributing yellow stars among us, but when they do so, I´ll let you know, maybe you would like to lend a hand. It must be so fun!


Enjoy!

[M609]

The Spanish goverment has clearly handled this poorly, not doubt about that.
Smells of banana republic style justice all the way.

But: Someone asked for and got the salaries you guys have enjoyed over the last years. (The same union that has refused to inform IFATCA about the level of pay in Spain repeatedly perhaps?)

Hate to break it to you guys, but understaffing is a problem all over Europe, but no one has managed to squeeze that much cash from their ANSP.

You had a VERY sweet deal....sad that the goverment could not find a more civilized way to sort out the situation.

[onetrack]

Now we will have to work 1750 hrs mandatory, and that is insane if you consider safety

Why is 1750 hrs of work a year, insane?? Do not most people with a job work 2000 hrs a year? Aren't many jobs stressful? - and do not many people have the protection of lives, involved as part of their jobs?

Is there something I have missed here? - that ATC people cannot work more than 1200 hrs a year, because there is such a high stress level, and responsibility, that people might die, if they work longer hours?

Yet - payment of overtime moneys, after 1200 hrs of work annually, reduces that stress level and increases safety, to the point that ATC staff can then work 1750 hrs safely?? :ugh:

The argument is hollow - the Spanish Govt has taken corrective action - but the problem lies in allowing the Spanish ATC union, excessive leeway, to become greedy beyond belief.
No-one with a shred of commonsense would reject modest wage increases, in line with other industries, the countries CPI, and other OECD nations equivalents - but it seems to me, that the Spanish ATC union thought they deserved exceptional treatment.
Welcome to the real world, where 98% of people have to survive on an average, or perhaps a slightly-above-average wage.

[criss]

Exactly. By this logic, one could limit the yearly schedule to 100hrs, then making 1750 would make for some salary!

If you're able to do 1800 while your schedule is 1200, then clearly your schedule is too low, or you allow too much overtime (in this case, by your logic, decreasing safety). We're doing ~1700 per year, but we're allowed only 150 overtime (usually increased to 200-250 around September to meet staffing needs).

[p_perez]

A simple question for all of those who argue that they have similar or even worse working conditions than ours now in Spain:

where those conditions negotiated or imposed?

Ours where imposed by a new and exclusive decree-law, while we were still negotiating with AENA.

Do you agree with this procedure? Would you accept it in the future?

If the answer is "yes", maybe you could consider moving to Cuba or Venezuela ...

[p_perez]

Hello!

Just an update, first for M609:

But: Someone asked for and got the salaries you guys have enjoyed over the last years. (The same union that has refused to inform IFATCA about the level of pay in Spain repeatedly perhaps?)

Sorry but I didn´t know USCA had any obligation to inform or give personal data to anybody, at least in Spain that´s illegal. Could you please post the regulation that makes it mandatory for my union to give my or anyone´s personal data to IFATCA? :=

And now I mention IFATCA, here is a press release from them (not yet in their webpage www.ifatca.org (http://www.ifatca.org) , guess they will upload it tomorrow monday):



06th February 2010
___________________________________________
_______________ Press Release _____________


European Union Presidency Spain Downgrades National Air Traffic Control System


IFATCA questions the Royal Decree issued by the Spanish Government and believes that this will not make up for the past deficiencies of AENA.

The Royal Decree has merely confirmed that the Air Traffic Control system in Spain, as is the case within much of Europe, relies upon individual Air Traffic Controllers working overtime to prop up the ATC system. Marc Baumgartner, IFATCA President, stated that the measures imposed by this decree will do nothing to provide a long term solution to this critical shortage of controllers.

This decree punishes Air Traffic Controllers for the past economic mismanagement of AENA.

Forcing any specialists in a safety critical field to work in such a climate of fear and intimidation that this decree creates is detrimental to the safety of the ATC system.

IFATCA calls upon the Spanish Government to ensure that all actions taken under this decree are in full accordance with ICAO and EU standards and requirements. They shall be subject to comprehensive safety assessments and not further stress the already overstretched ATC system.

In the interest of SAFETY of the traveling public in Spain, IFATCA, as the global voice of Air Traffic Controllers, calls upon the Spanish government to exercise restraint, caution and due consideration before enacting these extraordinary provisions. AENA must return to responsible and reasonable negotiations with its air traffic controllers, to determine a sustainable way to overcome the critical shortage of ATCOs.


Cheers! :D

[saintex2002]

Pamplinas y p-perez, estoy con vosotros, los que no entienden lo que se esta dibujando...o son trolls o gente del otro lado o " controlatas mal informatas " ...y no hay que perder mas tiempo para explicarles la guerra en la cual estan ellos mismos...
Espero de verdad que vais a superar esta guerra...
Pienso yo que estamos, todos los controladores europeos, llegando al momento de definir otra forma de ofrecer nuestro saber hacer en materia de control de trafico aéreo...y si os quedáis asi hasta final de Marzo, llamando AENA a volver a sentarse en la mesa para firmar un convenio que os agradece...muy bien...sino habra que pensar en un otro plan que suporto yo...
Suerte a todos... :ok:

[alwaysmovin]

I wonder if these are MOL figures.....ie...completely made up to encourage public distain ......or actual figures...ie.....what the Atco actually earns and not the cost of that Atco to the company in question!!

Having watched with interest the Irish story last month and being in a position to know exactly what an Irish Atco earns I am aware of the ridiculous lies that are told by some.....(in Ireland that being Mr ignorant O'Leary.. no doubt supported by his friends in the IAA) to get public support for a witch hunt. Everyone knows times are tough but why should controllers be constantly singled out.......I never hear controller salaries or ANSP's profits being even mentioned when the traffic levels are peak and ATCOS are working max loads all day long......Screams double standards to me.

Why should Atcos be constantly condemned for what in effect is the failure of ANSP to staff correctly.....if the ANSP does not train and provide staff then someone has to fill that gap....if they don't there will be the same people on here bitching and moaning about delays due to lack of personnel who are bitching and moaning about the salary of the controllers in question who have worked the overtime to ensure the delays do not occur .
If these reports are indeed correct then it seems in the case of Spain this is extreme and many earned exceptional pay to provide this service.... ..HOWEVER if the company had allowed this to go on for years and were happy up till now to not rectify the problem then why should the controllers be blamed........would any of you turn down the opportunity to make extra money....I don't think so:ugh:

It is also unfair to tar all the controllers with the same brush.....I'm sure there are many who did not do as much overtime if any at all and they have now had their normal pay and conditions radically change through no fault of their own.....

So give the guys a break...if you want to put the blame on anyone blame AENA....I'm sure their managers earn considerable amounts of money to manage the company and it seems they haven't done that job at all......... I haven't seen any posts on here by discussing their salaries and ability to do their jobs!!!

[saintex2002]

Alwaysmovin...
+ one...
:ok:

[deci]

+ 2..

suerte to spanish collegues

[LH2]

Ours where imposed by a new and exclusive decree-law, while we were still negotiating with AENA.

...as you (i.e., the union & AENA) have been doing for the last six years with absolutely zilch progress. It takes two to tango, granted.

Also, the alleged press release posted above, is non surprisingly at odds with what the Spanish Government says and does. For example:

European Union Presidency Spain Downgrades National Air Traffic Control System

From the decree under discussion (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/02/05-2/pdfs/BOE-A-2010-1916.pdf) (in Spanish, use Google to translate if not able to understand--it does make for interesting reading.):

Artículo 2.  Garantía en la prestación de servicios de tránsito aéreo.

1.  El proveedor civil de servicios de tránsito aéreo designado para un bloque
específico de espacio aéreo está obligado a garantizar la prestación segura, eficaz,
continuada y sostenible económica y financieramente de dichos servicios, que no podrá
ser reducida o suspendida sin la previa autorización de la autoridad competente.

Press Release:
The Royal Decree has merely confirmed that the Air Traffic Control system in Spain, as is the case within much of Europe, relies upon individual Air Traffic Controllers working overtime to prop up the ATC system

Royal decree (preface, non-normative):
[....]En concreto, obedecen a la obligación
de abonar como horas «de ampliación laboral», cuyo valor es de 2,65 veces el de la hora
ordinaria, un montante de horas que, si bien forma parte de su jornada habitual, están
formalmente configuradas como de libre aceptación por los controladores en una serie de
pactos extraestatutarios suscritos por AENA con ellos


...then it goes into a bit more detail:
Por convenio colectivo, los controladores al servicio de AENA tan sólo están obligados
a realizar 1.200 horas ordinarias de trabajo, que son claramente insuficientes para la
dimensión de nuestro sistema de navegación aérea. El resto de horas necesarias para
garantizar la continuidad en la prestación del servicio, con una media de 600 horas por
controlador, se realizan de forma habitual y de manera programada por los propios
controladores con tres meses de antelación, de tal forma que, en la práctica, trabajan unas
1.800 horas de media, de las cuales entre un treinta y tres y un cincuenta por ciento son
de descanso. Además, las citadas 600 horas tienen artificialmente la condición de
voluntarias y se abonan irregularmente a precio mucho más alto del previsto en el Estatuto
de los Trabajadores para las horas extraordinarias, lo que es la causa principal del
encarecimiento desmedido del coste del servicio.

[....]

Es necesario que el ente público, en
primer lugar, recupere el poder de organización y dirección de su actividad y, en segundo
lugar, pueda exigir a su personal de control que realice las horas de trabajo que actualmente
está realizando, retribuyéndolas conforme a su auténtica naturaleza, es decir, como horas
ordinarias de trabajo.



Press release:
IFATCA calls upon the Spanish Government to ensure that all actions taken under this decree are in full accordance with ICAO and EU standards and requirements.

Royal decree:
La garantía de la seguridad y continuidad en la prestación de servicios de tránsito
aéreo, la viabilidad económica de nuestro sistema de navegación aérea en el marco
europeo, así como el cumplimiento de los requisitos impuestos por los reglamentos
comunitarios sobre Cielo Único Europeo, exigen que se adopten medidas inmediatas y
urgentes en relación con la entidad pública AENA.


...and this other bit is interesting:

Por otro lado, tal y como exigen los reglamentos de Cielo Único Europeo, resulta
necesario permitir que otros proveedores de servicios, debidamente certificados por una
autoridad europea de supervisión, puedan prestar servicios de control de tránsito aéreo en
nuestros aeródromos. Con ello, además de cumplir con los requisitos comunitarios, se
introduce la competencia en este sector, lo cual, necesariamente, habrá de producir una
mejora en las condiciones técnicas y económicas en las que se prestan estos servicios.


Press release:
Marc Baumgartner, IFATCA President, stated that the measures imposed by this decree will do nothing to provide a long term solution to this critical shortage of controllers.

Royal decree:
Artículo 1.  Designación de proveedores civiles de servicio de tránsito aéreo.
[....]

The entire section deals with this, stripped for brevity, and:
Disposición adicional primera.  Medidas extraordinarias.
1.  Para la garantía de prestación segura y continuada de los servicios de navegación
aérea la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea podrá adoptar cualquiera de las siguientes
medidas extraordinarias:
a)  Aprobar de manera inmediata, conforme a la normativa comunitaria de aplicación,
los planes de formación que resulten necesarios para facilitar la obtención de las licencias,
habilitaciones y anotaciones de unidad de controladores de tránsito aéreo que se requieran.
Estos planes preverán expresamente la convalidación de los conocimientos y experiencia
del personal técnico aeronáutico, tales como pilotos o controladores.
b)  Certificar nuevos proveedores de servicios de tránsito aéreo conforme a los
reglamentos comunitarios, empleando un procedimiento preferente y simplificado.
c)  Certificar como proveedores de formación de servicios de información de vuelo de
aeródromo (AFIS) a los actuales proveedores de formación de control de tránsito aéreo y
convalidar los cursos de formación que hayan impartido ajustándose a la normativa
comunitaria.


and:
Disposición adicional tercera.  Formación de personal de tránsito aéreo.
1.  La sociedad estatal Servicios y Estudios para la Navegación Aérea y la Seguridad
Aeronáutica, S.A., como actual proveedor de formación de tránsito aéreo, deberá presentar
a la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea los planes de formación que resulten necesarios
para dotar al sistema del personal requerido para llevar a efecto las disposiciones
contenidas en el presente real decreto-ley.
Igualmente, AENA deberá presentar a la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea los
planes de formación de unidad y de formación continuada que resulten necesarios para
complementar los citados en el párrafo anterior.
Todos los planes de formación preverán expresamente la convalidación de los
conocimientos y experiencia del personal técnico aeronáutico, tales como pilotos o
controladores.
2.  Los restantes proveedores civiles de formación inicial podrán presentar asimismo
los planes de formación que estimen oportunos una vez hayan sido debidamente
certificados como proveedores civiles de formación. Estos planes podrán prever la
convalidación de los conocimientos y experiencia del personal técnico aeronáutico, tales
como pilotos o controladores.


Lastly:
AENA must return to responsible and reasonable negotiations with its air traffic controllers

On this point, the decree says:
AENA ha argumentado que,
pese a sus constantes intentos de solucionar las deficiencias advertidas por medio de la
negociación colectiva, dicha vía ha resultando infructuosa.
En efecto, desde 31 de diciembre de 2004, fecha en que finalizó la vigencia del
convenio colectivo de controladores de tránsito aéreo, AENA ha intentado reiteradamente
la modificación de la situación descrita, orientando sus propuestas dentro de la negociación
colectiva, entre otros extremos, a la garantía de la continuidad del servicio, mediante la
recuperación de la capacidad de organización del trabajo, al incremento de la productividad,
y al ajuste de sus costes para aproximarlos al entorno europeo. A tal efecto, ha mantenido
con la representación de los controladores, la Unión Sindical de Controladores Aéreos
(USCA), sesenta y cinco reuniones de la mesa negociadora para el II convenio colectivo.
Frente a las diez propuestas presentadas por AENA, todas ellas basadas en los objetivos
derivados de la normativa del Cielo Único Europeo, USCA tan sólo ha formulado seis
propuestas, la última de las cuales, presentada el 28 de enero de 2010, es una propuesta
de Convenio Colectivo completa que, resumidamente, plantea condiciones que no suponen
una reducción del coste actual, incluye medidas que incrementan la productividad pero
que se acompañan de la propuesta simultánea de nuevos conceptos retributivos, no
incorpora modificaciones relativas a los aspectos organizativos y de gestión que el I
convenio colectivo confirió a los controladores, y propone el incremento de otras
prestaciones y la mejora de las condiciones de acceso a la jubilación. Esta circunstancia,
unida al amplio período de tiempo transcurrido, cinco años, ponen de manifiesto que la vía
negociadora no resulta por sí sola suficiente para subvenir al cambio que demanda sin
más demora la realidad del mercado aéreo internacional y de los servicios de navegación
aérea en el contexto europeo.


What it comes down to, that golden goose is no more. They could as well have done a Reagan on it, I suppose. :rolleyes:

[alwaysmovin]

LH2...Are you suggesting that the spanish government should do 'a Ronald Regan' on the ATCO's in Spain..??

If so you are obviously unaware and ignorant of the long term detremential effect which has played out in the US due to said person's actions.....a shortage of qualified senior controllers, lack of qualified staff at busy centers etc etc....and in general a disasterous situation for all.....all at the whim of a president who wanted to 'look good' in the opinion of the public.....Ask any US ATC how this effected them in the long term!!

It remains a fact that there is a shortage of qualified controllers all over the world. I can only speak about what I know, but most European ANSP's spend a a large amount of money just advertising to encourage people to even apply for the job!!!.....that is only the first hurdle they face....getting enough people from that pool of applicants who are even suitable to begin training is a feat in itself...and as we all know the success rate in training can sometimes be as low as 50 percent

It's human naure to 'milk the cow'.....it is a manager's job to ensure that this should not be allowed to happen. Obviously in Spain's case this was extreme and some took the cream as well but you cannot blame the ATCOs for this......its human nature. I agree the salaries were excesssive but this according to the goverment sources is due to 'overtime' which is hardly the fault of the ATCOs...purely 'mismanagment' to extreme....The exact same thing is happened in Ireland and I believe Austria as well so who's fault is it......not the worker.....

Hopefully in a years time we will be back to the normal situation where the econony will be back on track.....

ATCOs worldwide will however be back to the 'normal' situation where we have too much traffic and not enough staff .... but who cares then.......

Every country in the world needs controllers......if you feel it is such an overpaid luxury job...apply!!!!! and stop moaning about it as if all ATCOs were handed the job on a plate...........

[andrijander]

Well, talking about succes rate: at my employer, EUROCONTROL, AFAIK succes rate (from initial application to validating as a controller) right now stands somewhere near 2%. That is, only 2% of aplicants become controllers.

We're not special...just rare.

A.

[walkirie]

An article published on web page "AviaciónDigital":

What do not have to happen, is happening. Tension is growing between the air traffic controllers working in ACC Torrejón and Barajas control tower , and AENA Management Area, which has taken the responsability that until now had the air traffic controllers in decisions related to runway configurations or traffic regulations . The "Decretazo" , a goverment rule issued on last friday, is taking over the safety criteria, something that the Crisis plan made by the Service provider AENA does not include. When politics decisions are beginning to overlap the technical and operational criteria, you create situations that are making the controllers hair standing on end.

According to Aviacion digital sources, people who belongs to AENA´s structure, some of them without operational license, are giving the orders over the ones given by supervisors, following direct orders from the political establishment.

Yesterday at the Torrejón Air traffic Control Center (ACC) , a lot of pressure was received in order to open up ten sectors simultaneously, despite not having the necessary staff. The consequences were aircrafts doing holding patterns, tension in front of the air traffic control positions, and the Center Supervisor about to explode. Finally the good sense prevailed and just 6 sectors were opened.
On Sunday, tension has continued throughout the day, with random changes in the runway configurations, being increased by the fact that there was a flight calibration (ils calibration) being carried out on the runway 18L (18 left) and that were also affecting the take-off from 15R (15 right) . The Air Navigation director, Carmen Librero (she is not an air traffic controller), has requested an explanation from the Control tower boss and from the person responsable for the ATC operations room., and as far as Aviaciondigital knows ,some threats have come to light. According to AD sources, what they are trying to do is "to take some hostages" by using some disciplinary actions, in order to force the air traffic controller union in some way during an hypothetical labor negotiations. They said that a flight calibration "would be an excellent opportunity" to accomplish this. It's kind of bait ...

AENA managers unilaterally and inexplicably decided to give priority to the calibration flight, above all the commercial flights approaching to Barajas Airport, most of them had to be put on holding patterns.

Then, noboy took the measures to regulate the number of takeoffs from Barajas, so that the air traffic controlers could not cope wiht the ammount of traffic that they were forced to manage, and as result the pilots were stunned. Additionally, more runway changes were made at the request of AENA Management Area, with all the taxiways saturated and some situations that might call "delicate" from the point of view of air traffic control. Meanwhile the planes were being unnecessary acumulated in the holding points of the runways.

The situation, being the most objective as possible, was reaching to the limit literally, with the powerlessness of the situation, the threat to the Head of Operations Room at Barajas Tower, and a few miles away the Supervisor of the ACC in Torrejón de Ardoz having to leave the Control room due to a nervous breakdown, as we have indicated various sources in this frenetic late-night Sunday

[p_perez]

Hey ya, LH2, nice exhibition of "copy&paste" skills. Wow!, you´ve got me thrilled ... what will be next, "inserting emoticons" ...?

Anyway, as this is an English speaking forum, would you mind taking your time and translate what you post? Maybe this way other visitors of this thread can judge (as I do) all the last nonsense you posted.

Also, been an spaniard as I am, you could also clarify where do you work: AENA, INECO, Fomento ministry, CNI ... :eek:


Thanks for the support, alwaysmovin, very much needed nowdays. One thing needs clarification: the supposed salary figures with which we are accused, are really "the cost of Atco to the company in question, not what the Atco actually earns!!" (as you dixit).


Last update for today: the webpage of the Spanish controllers´union at www.usca.com (http://www.usca.com) has been attacked since last friday (the day the decree-law was published). Finally, today, "they" managed to shut it down. This is very serious: don´t know if there is any precedent in the EU of such an abuse for workers and citizens´s rights. The mood in all Spanish TWR´s and ACC´s is very "dark", least to say. We are all wondering: what will be next?


Buenas noches!

[p_perez]

Hello andrijander:

as you may know, in Spain the system is different from Eurocontrol´s:
to apply for the job, you need to have completed at least 3 years of any university carreer. The first filter is in the selection por the candidates:
for example, 8500 applied for 150 positions at the control school at SENASA. That is a 1,76 % success rate. Once at the school, another 1% are expeled before completing the 20 month formation.

Saludos!

[p_perez]

Hello:

this message is starting to spread among Spanish controllers:


Colleagues:

There are strong indications that the CNI (Spanish CIA) has tapped the phones and e-mail accounts of key members of the union. A few days ago there was a savage attack and the web professional usca (www.usca.es (http://www.usca.es) , currently down) and stole all the keys. This afternoon we are seeing a new attack and the site is down. The webmaster recommends immediate change in all our passwords (bank, mail, etc.) if they are the same as the ones with access to the USCA website. We are experiencing several of the anomalies difficult to explain on the cellphone and in e-mail for some time. I guess at this point to no surprise (except to those blinded by ideology).


The mood in all Spanish TWR´s and ACC´s is "dark", least to say. We are all wondering: what will be next?


Creepy saludos!

[Vector361]

First, to all Spanish ATCOs....good luck. You have a union that has represented you extremely well to the point you have become a target in these tough economic times. Something similar happened much more recently in the US in 2006 when the Bush government imposed a pay "freeze" on over 95% of the ATC workforce. This endured for about 3 years until Bush left office. They also reduced the pay for new ATCOs by about 15%.

For your comparison, if a "top 1% earner" US ATCO worked a 10 hour shift of overtime for 50 weeks a year they earn about $240K USD or $175K Euros for 2580 hours per year. The base hours of work is 2080. As for vacation - 13 days, increases to 20 days after 3 years, increases to a max. of 26 days after 15 years.

Overall, good points except.....for current US controllers regarding the Reagan comments....Detrimental impact, now?....no other CONTINENT works any where near the amount of traffic the US does. The US still works 50% of the WORLD's traffic. I'm not saying we're better or that others can't. I believe most could given the chance. US controllers just have that opportunity and actually do produce those "numbers." Reagan impact.... About 40-50% of current US ATCOs were less than 12 years old when Reagan left office in '88 and were 5 or less when the firings occurred. They have no idea of the impact of the 81 firings. The impact was on those fired and the industry & FAA for about 5 years. The replacements, like myself, moved on in our careers and have retired or are closing in on the mandatory retirement age. The US workforce is compromised of 45-50% of ATCOs with 15 years or more experience, so much for lacking senior controllers. What is lacking is the 5-15 years experienced ATCOs & staffing at many facilities large & small. Long term effects....the US system using '60s equipment was working record traffic within a very few years. The Reagan firings have had no impact on 95+% of the present workforce unless they were positive. (After all, my "scab" generation got our jobs mainly because others were fired.) The current US ATCO main nemisis is/was Bush II and his administration.

Again, good luck....

[alwaysmovin]

Vector 361, Thanks I stand corrected....I actually wasn't talking about present times.... but I was still always led to believe that it had caused considerable damage to the system in terms of creating big loss of experienced controllers in certain centers....now I know better ;-)

[Vector361]

In '81 Reagan did fire about 10,000 of about 15,000 controllers. And it did, at that time, cause a great loss of experience and mid-career controllers. Most that managed to get thier jobs back were back within 2 years. There was a very few hired back after that and those were hired back around 20 years later. Hang in there.

[p_perez]

Hi there!

one more day with USCA´s webpage down. My colleagues are trying to work it out as soon as possible, but it looks like the damage done by the attack has been very serious, as it has corrupted the databases and compromised the passwords of all accounts and email addresses. I think they will have to build it up from scratch. :mad:

Todays update is a document from the ATCEUC (Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination) about the recent events in Spain. Here is the direct link:

www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC/ATCEUC-Documents/277/atceuc-letter-for-the-spanish-situation.pdf (http://www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC/ATCEUC-Documents/277/atceuc-letter-for-the-spanish-situation.pdf)


If you feel a bit lazy today, I´ll show you now my "copy&paste" skills: ;)



Mr José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero
President of the European Union
Prime Minister of Spain

Mr José Blanco López
Minister of Development

Mr Antonio Tajani
Vice President of the European Commission




Aix en Provence, Monday February 8th 2010






Dear Sirs,








ATCEUC would like to draw your attention to some of the decisions that have been taken last Friday in Spain that do not reflect the level of development one expects from a member country of the European Union.








In the new article 152 of the Lisbon Treaty, the Union recognizes and promotes the role of the social partners (…) facilitating dialogue between social partners (…). Spain, holding the presidency of the EU since the 1st of January 2010, begins its term in a dictatorial and autocratic manner. Indeed, the elementary rights of the Social Partners are completely dismissed and regarded as irrelevant by the Spanish Government by publishing a Royal Decree-Law that dismisses with absolute contempt all the agreements negotiated between USCA and AENA these past years.






Those agreements were taken under the framework of the Spanish Constitution (art.37.1) that clearly states the right to collective bargaining:





“The law will guarantee the right to collective labour bargaining between representatives of workers and employers, as well as being a binding contract of all the agreements taken”





That right is virtually abolished now by the new Royal Decree-Law.






Among those, ATCEUC denounces the complete and unilateral change in the mobility rights rights that come from this Royal Decree-Law. Indeed, it goes against any elementary human right to decide unilaterally from one day to another that an air traffic controller has to change working location for service obligation. Another major and unilateral change in the working conditions of the Spanish controllers is the extension of labour hours at company's will with no negotiation at all.





ATCEUC is also ringing the alarm bell regarding the elementary safety issues that are completely forgotten by this dictatorial Royal Decree-Law. The decision of recruiting new controllers with only a shortened training period thanks to an aeronautical background is absolute nonsense. Would airlines recruit new pilots only because they have been working in the planning office of their company? How can one ensure a safe provision of air traffic services with a reduced training program?






The Spanish language is an official ICAO language and therefore, it is a right to speak it within aeronautical operations. ATCEUC, in the light of this elementary right wants to warn the European Union about the fact that the Spanish decree-law is allowing recruitment with no local language proficiency - or at a minimum level. Personnel (maintenance, fire-fighters...) in airports and Area Control Centers have no minimum requirements to speak English. How could the coordination between a foreign controller and those involved in an emergency be trusted to provide the required reactions and decision-making. What could the consequences of a misunderstanding result in? Is Europe ready to face a new major accident over its territory?







Moreover, according to this Royal Decree-Law, technical-operative decisions normally made by the controller on duty anywhere in the World (such as the runway in use), in Spain, from now on, can be made by the management of the ANSP in the interest of the so called efficiency of the system. How can one ensure that these decisions will be the safest ones especially taking into account that these people do not have a valid operational license? Will they be in a position to take them?







In the light of the extreme urgency of the situation, ATCEUC requests the European Union to reconsider their position regarding these issues and to respect the fundamental rights of the citizens for a free social dialogue. We are also seriously concerned about the safety of overflying operations with destinations in a European country with such a huge touristic profile. ATCEUC urges the concerned authorities to stop this outrage against the most elementary values and against democratic freedom. We are ready to meet you to try to solve the situation in the fairest way for our members but also for the citizens that need to fly over Spain, and fly safely.






As you can see, it is not workers and citizens rights what we are talking here about, it is SAFETY in air traffic also involved. Spanish goverment is planning to confirm the decree-law this week at the Parlament, although it is been applied since last friday. It is going to be interesting to see the behavior of the rest of political parties during the debate.







Saludos!

[Blue5]

Seems to be pretty calm over there in Spain,

any latest news about The Spanish Inquisition?

[p_perez]

Hello Blue5:

yesterday, the infamous decree-law was confirmed by the Spanish Parliament. It was their 1st session, after a 48-day! Christmas holiday. Remember the motto: "Spain is different!"

Another international organization has expressed their opinion about the Spanish ATC situation, IFALPA: International Federation of Airline Pilots' Associations: you can read their latest publication here:

http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Safety%20Bulletins/2010/10SAB15%20-%20Spanish%20ATC%20dispute.pdf


Once again, for those of you too lazy, here is the text:


10SAB15
12 February 2010

Temperature rising in
Spanish ATC


IFALPA has been notified by its Spanish Member Association SEPLA that the negotiation of a new labour agreement between Spanish controllers and AENA (the ATM service provider) has taken an unexpected twist after the approval by the Spanish government of a “Urgent Royal Decree” which changes the previous agreement.

The Federation has no position on the state of the negotiations or the tactics employed in the dispute. However, the dispute does raise some safety concerns. Consequences may include increased tension in the controller’s work place, economic worries of ATC staff, unanticipated shortage of ATCOs and unexpected delays throughout Spanish airspace.

SEPLA recommend that aircrews exercise extreme caution when flying within the Spanish FIRs (this includes the Spanish mainland, Balearic and Canary Islands as well as delegated airspace) and to consider the following safety recommendations:


Increased vigilance of all ATC procedures
Adhere strictly to standard operating procedures, paying extra attention to communications mainly when entering congested airspace (TMAs for example)
Consider taking extra fuel for unexpected extended delays or diversions
Exercise special attention during all ground movements

As you can see, professionals are starting to get aware of the increased risk of Spanish airspace, due to the pressure over ATCO´s and also to the fact that now, the responsibles of taking operational decisions are AENA´s office staff instead of ATCO´s: number of sectors, flow regulations, etc ...

We are trying to take this abuse to the EU´s organizations (Transport Commissary, Luxembourg Tribunal), but nothing guarantees we will be heard.

For it is SAFETY what we are talking about here, not $$. But I´m afraid politicians don´t speak this language.

Saludos!

[Blue5]

If risk of danger in spanish airspace is increasing it might also be interesting for insurance companies which insures the planes, isn't it.

But that's not the point, just a side effect. The point is that non operational office staff with maybe not enough background understanding is in force to manage a highly diversified and complex airspace.

Who will take responsibility in case of an occurance caused by this mismanagement? Will AENA stay behind their office people? Or will the office people be the next to get blamed for an unlucky happening. I think those office people even do not know exactly what responsibilty they have right now, and what impact of their mismanagement it might have. Maybe somebody should tell them, should clarify this matter? It's not the Royal Decree-Law which should be targeted now, it's the people who execute it, try to convince them, they they are responsible for all their actions.

Next step would be new negotiations, and i think 1200 working hours per year is really like in heaven.
In Austria we got about 1650 hours per year but due to lack of personnel (thanks again to management failures in the past) we work a lot more(between 1950-2400 hours), some instructor hours not included, because it's called 'from spare time', but payed. So no wonder why our monthly salary sometimes doubles. 2007 and 2008 we even worked more.... on extra hours.
Without regulations in ACC it's not managable do keep a safe flow of traffic. ACC is in the poor situation that they are less people than some years ago. They can be lucky that the economic crises dropped also european air traffic flow.
The training offensive seems to fizzles out.
It's not as serious as in the US but still it will be a tough ride the next years.


So you say you work now without regulations, is that true??? No flow management implemented???? Did sector capacity increase? Or did your Management disobey all modern air traffic control flow tools and air traffic control procedures?

Spring and Summer will be funny in Spain.

[andrijander]

Hi Blue5,

I'm not in Spain, but I try to follow the news closely (and not just the mainstream media). For what I understand the managers may be aware there is such things as sector capacities and restrictions. I'm just not sure they "understand" what they mean. Take as an example the first weekend after the royal decree was in place (6&7 feb). In Madrid ACC managers wanted to open 10 sectors to avoid generating delays. They only had staff to open 6. High tension in the ops-room and, rumours have it, the end result was menaces from management to the Centre Supervisor of starting an investigation against him (which, according to the new "law" it may mean suspension from pay UNTIL INVESTIGATION IS FINISHED and even getting FIRED...of course it is AENA the one who investigates, so they can take as long as they like if they delay it). I don't know if these managers know even maths. It looks pretty simple to me. Not enough people, can't open.

Also rumours have it that this, mixed with similar situations at Madrid tower, is an attempt from AENA to take hostages in the face of the new negotiations between agency and staff. BTW, since I mention, imagine the chaos in Madrid Barajas, since managers now pop up and say "you know what? Let's chg rwy config!" whenever they feel like (forget wind,WX or TFC picture...who cares about that stuff?). Just because they figured, on paper, this or that configuration provides more capacity... 8o

ANIMO COMPA~NEROS!!!

Slds,
A.

[Blue5]

ok, maybe their maths is diffrent:bored:, or they just think about single man/woman operations, by the way, wasn't there something over and in Überlingen?
Hope if something happens(but better hope that nothing really serious happens), Russians will be the victims, they gonna find out those managers.

So presently it seems that Spanish Air Traffic Control is managed by arbitrariness and powerhungry markmaking managers.

One, sorry two last questions:
Are you sure Spain is a civilized country in the EU and is Francisco Franco really dead?

If this dispute is going on some while it might be of high interest for the newspapers all over Europe regarding the next summer season, in regard of safety, tourism industry will have an eye on it.
But Espana don't need the tourists :ugh:

Keep on negotiating, come back to normal procedures and find to make a compromise.
If staffing is too low, then negotiations should be done in this way, with time and head(staff numbers) goals. If those are not achieved a bonus for the current staff will be paid(like a fine).
Well the working hours presently (1750) seems to be slightly above the average in Europe.

If they are trying to get some personnel from other ATC Units I think in the present situation nobody will change. I'd rather get pissed in Austria than in Spain although its a very nice sunny country with very nice people.

Hasta la vista baby!

[andrijander]

Hey there,

well it seems that is what the sinister minister wants. I mean, that's what he says in public appearances. Even in the "royal decree-law" it is mentioned that this is a temporary measure (3 years) and it urges to resume negotiations.

What does this mean? That now the company, in the new "legal" (or ilegal, depends how you look at it) situation, wants the controllers to sit down and sign new employment conditions. So, even if they are imposing now, they still want the union to sign an agreement. My bet is that, since this last decree is disregarding constitution and existing laws, if the union signs anything else it won't matter anymore. Of course the company will be very, very, very agresive with the new negotiations (since they can fire people for almost no reason and now can push the controllers buttons at their will). So they'll try and downgrade conditions as much as possible before justice can react. And then, since this new agreement will be legal (albeit the blackmail), nothing else matters. By the way justice in Spain may be known for many things but not exactly for being a fast acting entity.

I think it is funny to mention Franco and Europe... even controllers there call the minister "Goebbels" (due to his propaganda skills). But personally I think this is more related to wild capitalism. Crisis=less income for some... and there is air traffic control, moving lots of money. Airports, tourists, and associated bussineses. A big, fat creamy cake and they're trying to get a piece of it. Spanish ATC was in the way. Or was the excuse to step in? Or both? It doesn't really matter at this point. But this isn't about cost cutting (ATC salaries) or safety (it's not making it any better at least). Even if that's what the minister says when there's journo's nearby.

Slds,
A.

[kontrolor]

hi, it is indeed sinister way how the govt has reacted to your wages and how they are treating you. But can you please explain to me - an atco who has to work 1848 hrs per year, who prescribed 1200 hrs yearly at the first place - it seems that you were working only 12.5 days per month, or am I mistaken? At least sans the overtime of course.

[Point Seven]

To all of those on here telling our Spanish colleagues that they have had it too good for too long, please sit back and remember that these are conditions that they have reached through negotiations - we should actually be asking them for some negotiating help :ok:

Also contemplate how WE would feel if our respective management tried to enforce new conditions upon us, unilaterally and without consultation. It matters not a jot who gets paid the most or who works more hours, what matters is that action such as this sets a precedent that all ANSPs will be aware of and may attempt to invoke one day.

We should all stand in support of our Spanish hermanos y hermanas not tell them that they should suck it up.

P7

[kontrolor]

hmm...why didn't they ask for normal working hours and rather negotiated for extra low (1200 per year) and left doors open for well payed overtime? Because they earned a lot of money of course. What would you opt for - 1200 per year and well payed overtime or 1800 per year and NO overtime by law? that's what we have. Yes it's nice to show off with your newest BMW, but is it sane/safe to have such arrangement? Sooner or later crisis comes and then everybody looks that big paycheck you get. Pay should reflect the ammount/complexity of work and should be more or less on the same wavelenght as whole country. It is obscene to have 10.000 € per month where average monthy wage is 300.

[aldegar]

We've been the first to suffer this kind of extreme and illegal measures, but we won't be the last ones. And I'm not only talking about ATC.

For example, Madrid's Police is currently negotiating a pay increase and they've threaten them with a Decree like ours if the don't reach an agreement before Easter:

Calvo amenaza con tratar a los policías como a los controladores · ELPAÍS.com (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/madrid/Calvo/amenaza/tratar/policias/controladores/elpepiespmad/20100216elpmad_5/Tes)

I'm not going to translate all, but the heading says: "Calvo threatens to treat the Policemen the same way as the Controllers".

¿Why negotiate when they can get all they want by a Decree and without any concessions at all?

So be aware of what can happen. Here in Spain we also thought we lived in a democracy...

Long life Zapatero! (just in case the Dictator's Secret Services are reading this, I don't want to be sent to a concentration camp).

[coolbeans]

Out of interest, does the 1200 hours/year figure also include fatigue breaks, or are they unpaid?