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SASless
2nd Feb 2010, 03:02
The USAF Academy has set aside a Prayer Space/Worship Space/Ritual Sacrifice Space or whatever the hell you would call it.....for Witches,Wiccans, Pagan's, and Druids to practice their unique beliefs.

Honest....I am not making this up! So much for God, Country, and Mom's Apple Pie!

Don't count on the US Naval Academy or the Military Academy to follow suit. Somehow I cannot see a US Marine getting involved in this kind of stuff!

Neo-Pagans Get Worship Circle at Air Force Academy - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584500,00.html)

D O Guerrero
2nd Feb 2010, 07:02
So? Its only as ridiculous as having a chapel or any other kind of worship of an imaginary best friend...

Gainesy
2nd Feb 2010, 12:15
IIRC the RN set aside half a paint locker for some bloke who hsd the bright idea of becoming a Devil worshipper a few years back. Don't think it lasted long.

Molemot
2nd Feb 2010, 15:27
It's on a par with getting "Jedi" as an officially acknowledged religion by writing it in on the census form. I'm with D.O Guerrero on this..gratification for delusionals, all of it.

West Coast
2nd Feb 2010, 16:30
Somehow I cannot see a US Marine getting involved in this kind of stuff!

I dunno. One Marine had Christmas canceled at the family service center on the base I was stationed at. Objected to Santa showing up at a Christmas party for the little ones that attended day care there. Instead of pulling his kid for the day, he pitched a big enough bitch to the Commanding General and his COS that they canceled the party. It offended his Muslim beliefs he said.

Jolly Green
3rd Feb 2010, 01:34
I was based with the U.S. Marines on their Horn of Africa base for the holidays a few years ago. On December 21st the chapel had a pagan service for the solstice. The pagans invited everyone to attend, just requested that visitors attend with respect for their religion. I almost wish I had gone.

Agaricus bisporus
3rd Feb 2010, 03:15
Its no wonder the Moslem world thinks Westerners a bunch of decadent Godless heathens when we condone that kind of rubbish, especially in our military.
Not the sort of behaviour to impress Somalis really, not that they were very impressed beforehand, but that was a different story.

"The holidays." Is this a euphemism for Christmas?

SASless
3rd Feb 2010, 03:24
Westie,

Good thing I wasn't his CO.....would have told him to attend or sit out....his choice....but would also say the same thing to others that did not wish to observe Ramadan or similar Muslim events.

It is Freedom of Religion ....not freedom from religion!

Sounds like the PC bull**** has gotten its hooks into the military way...way too far!

Fubaar
3rd Feb 2010, 04:47
Sadly, before the (*** commissioned!) Fort Hood gunman did this 'thing', (and quite possibly still today), that Marine CO's career would have gone down the gurgler on the PC Express if he'd stood up to that lone Muslim marine who insisted on cancelling the Christmas party - and both he and the Muslim marine knew it.

One day, our grandchildren (at least those of them that aren't banging their heads on a mat with their arses pointing away from from the Kalba stone) will ask us what were we thinking allowing Political Correctness, especially towards Muslims, to proceed (regress!) as far as it has today.

S76Heavy
3rd Feb 2010, 06:06
I'm with SASless on this one.

Anyone with the sort of intolerance displayed by the f*cker who cancelled Christmas is unfit to serve in a military that prides itself in defending (religious) freedom worldwide.
Tolerance and respect are two way streets..or should be anyway.

People with an axe to grind will always find something to "offend" their sensibilities. How far do we as societies want to go in placating them?

Good on the pagans for inviting everybody as long as they attend respectfuly. At least they seem to grasp the concept of freedom and respect.

aviate1138
3rd Feb 2010, 06:22
Religion is a faith, not a fact.

Tankertrashnav
3rd Feb 2010, 08:27
I've known a few adherents to what is known as Wicca (they seem to gravitate to areas such as Cornwall). They can be summed up as well-meaning, slightly eccentric people with a possibly misguided faith in natural medicines and herbs and a general desire to live with, as opposed to against nature. No broomsticks, no curses and certainly no devil-worship. As far as I know no Wiccans have ever blown themselves up in a crowd or led a crusade to the Holy Lands against unbelievers. Nor are they known for buggering young boys in their care.

If this is delusional rubbish, I'm all for it.

pr00ne
3rd Feb 2010, 11:18
S76Heavy,

"a military that prides itself in defending (religious) freedom worldwide."

Oh boy, do you need to revisit your history lessons!

Most inaccurate clap trap I have read for a LONG time.

aviate,

Prove it! How is it not a deluded cult?

sitigeltfel
3rd Feb 2010, 11:35
"The holidays." Is this a euphemism for Christmas?I think you will find the word is derived from the phrase "Holy Days".

Not that it means anything to me except that I can get some skiing in. I get my uplifting services from the great lord Poma.

S76Heavy
3rd Feb 2010, 11:35
pr00ne

having lived for years in a country libeated by the Allies in 1944-1945 from brutal occupation, having numerous friends and family members in the armed forces who have served and still serve in conflict areas where the US military plays a big part, I feel I am entitled to my opinion.

I am also aware of more cynical decisions reagrding the choices of battlegrounds and conflicts, like oil and supremacy.

However, how can any military that purports to liberate people from oppression (remember the toppling of the statue in Baghdad?) condone the suppression of inhouse cultural if not religious festivities by another member of those armed forces, with a claim of religious sensitivities being offended?
What about just staying away from Santa Claus if it does not suit your beliefs, rather than spoiling it for everybody?

Double standards at least.

BEagle
3rd Feb 2010, 11:57
Hi Westie!

Don't the USMC (allegedly) have 'internal disciplinary methods' to ensure that no Marine causes trouble in this way?

'Code Red'? Or was that just a Hollywood thing?

aviate1138
3rd Feb 2010, 14:42
Pr00ne,

Having said I think religion is a faith not a fact, you said,

"aviate,

Prove it! How is it not a deluded cult?"

I don't think there is much difference, if any, between deluded cults and religions. The proof should come from the religions/cults.

Dict: "belief that is not based on proof:"

Bit like Global Warmists! :rolleyes:

SASless
3rd Feb 2010, 14:48
Beagle.....for craps sake....ignore Hollywood's view of the Military please?

http://home.comcast.net/~jimsondergeld/Prayer1.jpg


The Marine Hymn

From the Halls of Montezuma
To the shores of Tripoli
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land, and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marine.


Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in every clime and place
Where we could take a gun.
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job --
The United States Marines.


Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

pontifex
3rd Feb 2010, 15:40
Tankertrash, a very good post sir - says it all in a relative nutshell

pr00ne
3rd Feb 2010, 17:33
aviate1138,

My apologies, I think I rather hastily grasped at the wrong end of the stick.....

S76Heavy,

Good point, particularly your last paragraph

davejb
3rd Feb 2010, 18:18
You can't prove a negative.
You can prove something DOES exist (or whatever) but not that it doesn't.
So religion is basically a lot of people who can't prove there is a God (by whatever name) - and, here's the clincher, if you try to prove existence you've been double huffed or something and lose the game - who are opposed by a lot of people who can't prove there isn't a God (etc etc).

All in all a wonderful example of why the human race really does need to get out more.

Agaricus bisporus
3rd Feb 2010, 18:32
Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.

Except in Somalia, where they turned into a bunch of frightened rubber-toothed wimps.

It may have been the policy of the "leadership" (Admiral Howe, was it? I forget.) But nerve was never seen there...
Frightened wimps they became, frightened wimps they stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound, and a year later as frightened wimps they ran.

The opposition, mostly untrained, unorganised anarchic teenagers clad in tee shorts, flipflops with worn out AK47s and no heavy weapons did not exactly see this as a defeat...

SASless
4th Feb 2010, 00:10
AB,

Perhaps you know not what of you speak, Sir.

I was there for a while flying White Helicopters with "UN" painted on them....and actually saw them leave. I stood there and waved as the last of them extracted from the beach. I purposely ruined a CNN reporter's taping of his commentary about how the American Forces had been forced to lower their flag in defeat....he was British too I might add....and a compete Wxnker.

Perhaps my opinon of the US Marines is different than yours....but at least mine was formed watching them first hand. The provided me tools, oils, food, and other support despite my working for a British firm. Without them, we would have been very embarrassed upon our arrival with the aircraft as our Techie's had left out one very critical tool with which to put our aircraft back together. The USMC kindly lent us what we needed.

Would you mind explaining where you came up with your views on the Gyrenes?

brickhistory
4th Feb 2010, 00:25
Sounds like somebody's girl walked away with the nastly ol' Marine.

A double dose (no pun intended) of poor taste it would seem...:}

11Fan
4th Feb 2010, 00:52
bunch of frightened rubber-toothed wimps.

Doesn't take much courage to make a statement like that on an anonymous forum. Bet you wouldn't say that to a UK Serviceman face to face. I suspect you would have your ass handed to you quite promptly.

con-pilot
4th Feb 2010, 01:12
Except in Somalia, where they turned into a bunch of frightened rubber-toothed wimps.

It may have been the policy of the "leadership" (Admiral Howe, was it? I forget.) But nerve was never seen there...
Frightened wimps they became, frightened wimps they stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound, and a year later as frightened wimps they ran.

The opposition, mostly untrained, unorganised anarchic teenagers clad in tee shorts, flipflops with worn out AK47s and no heavy weapons did not exactly see this as a defeat...


If you are referring to Hollywood's production of 'Black Hawk Down' or for that matter the bloody facts, it was not the United States Marines, Clinton pulled them and replaced them.

The Marine Corps left with honor and dignity intack.

Also, only a lilly livered coward would dare insult a fighting force with the history of the United States Marine Corps behind false name on a website.

You sir, are a total waste of oxygen.

Oh, I take the 'sir' back.

GreenKnight121
4th Feb 2010, 03:12
And the "Christians" have shown their usual tolerance for other beliefs...

Christians Desecrate Wiccan Religious Site at Air Force Academy : Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/02/03/christians-desecrate-wiccan-religious-site-at-air-force-academy/)

Can the burning-at-the-stake be far behind?

Perhaps they can start up a new Inquisition?


I was raised a Baptist, but left that behind... and for most of my 8 years in the USMC in the 1980s I could best be described as a Wiccan... with definite Buddhist influences.

I am glad the US constitution protects us from religious dictatorships like some on this thread seem happy with (as long at it is a Christian dictatorship led by their particular form of Christianity).

Jolly Green
4th Feb 2010, 03:30
[/quote] "The holidays." Is this a euphemism for Christmas?

That’s American for Thanksgiving (thanking who?), Hanukkah and Christmas. So it's a bigger euphemism than you supposed. I don’t think it will be too long before it also includes Ramadan. It certainly did for me that year.

SASless
4th Feb 2010, 03:40
Mark Twain had several interesting views on religion and politics.....

We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.

West Coast
4th Feb 2010, 06:07
AB
I was in Somalia. Saw nothing of the like. Would it be too much to back it up with facts?

Yeah, I thought so. A troll

stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound

Now I know you're full of it, I damn sure would have known about that. The Italians did put on a mean pasta night weekly to which they invited all the different branches of the military.


Beag's
You watch to many movies. There were however (are still I imagine) methods of dealing with the Private Santiago's of the world. Not necessarily pleasant.

BEagle
4th Feb 2010, 07:30
I have to say that A Few Good Men was a bit of a disappointment - as it must be one of the few of her films in which Demi Moore appears fully-clothed throughout....:\

Over here, some PC-idiot tried to change the official 'Christmas' holiday of some school to 'Winterval' holiday.

Most outrage came from the local Moslem community who basically said that this would just cause trouble and there was no way they supported such pathetic bureaucratic bull$hit.

West Coast
4th Feb 2010, 16:08
her films in which Demi Moore appears fully-clothed throughout....


Back in her prime she was quite a gem I must say.

I'm sure the RM's have been known to knock a slacker around a wee bit.

It aint the boy scouts...

SASless
4th Feb 2010, 16:15
My response was simple...."Who cares!"

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.cinematical.com/media/2008/12/striptease.jpg

Tankertrashnav
4th Feb 2010, 16:35
This thread seems to have developed into a knock/defend the US Marines fest, but as SASless started the thread and is joining in the general melee, who am I to complain about huge thread drift?

That said, SASless, I wonder what aspect of being a Wiccan, say, you would consider is incompatible with being a US Marine (going back to Post #1). I take it that many marines are members of Christian churches, Jews, etc, (lets not complicate matters by bringing in Moslems, it tends to get some PPruners foaming at the mouth), and to an outsider these organisations have beliefs and practices no less arcane than those of the Wiccans. Serious question, a thoughtful response would be much appreciated.

SASless
4th Feb 2010, 17:00
Traditionally, US Military bases have Chapels that are themselves structures that are non-denominational and are used by all faiths for the conduct of religious services. The Air Force Academy has such a Chapel.

There is no reason under the Sun I see to change that concept as the military has always been a leader in social change and inclusion. The current Air Force Academy effort to counter complaints of failing to live up to those ideals, in my view defeats the core concepts our military has embraced re religion.

I would suggest bringing the various faiths together and supporting none over the other is the right way towards acheiving harmony.

If the military cannot live tolerance and acceptance of one another's religious beliefs then how can units function in a cohesive manner during combat and other times of great stress. We are all one big Band of Brothers (and Sisters)....and should be that way in all regards to include religious matters (meaning acceptance, tolerance, and support of our fellows).

I may not embrace their beliefs but being an American.....I believe in their right to worship as they please in general provided the "religion" is based upon concepts that promote peace, love, respect, and the like.

Personally, I find the practice of Witchcraft to fall short of what I would consider a religion. Spirit worship by Native Americans is quite acceptable to me. Most religions have stemmed from beliefs that are centuries old and not just from 1933 thus I question whether some forms of Wicca are suitable to be called a religion in the true definition of religion.

My angst is not the practice of religion but the continued separation of the varioius sects which in my mine undermines acceptance, tolerance, and embracing of our fellow man.

Did not Major Hassan claim persecution as one of his motives? What if he and non-muslim believers had been brought closer together by military policy rather than separated.....would that worked to prevent such feelings of hostility?

The Indian Army seems to have found a way to incorporate very different beliefs amongst their force and seem to be quite effective as a fighting force. Maybe we can learn from them if we would seek their counsel.

There is your serious answer......what is your serious reply?

BenThere
4th Feb 2010, 23:41
Properly trained, I think many Wiccans could be developed into really mean MFers, which is what I want in my Marine.

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 00:52
Fetterman, Custer, and those that later fought the Apaches discovered Earth Lovers could be difficult adversaries.

Tankertrashnav
5th Feb 2010, 11:09
SASless

My serious reply is that I agree with about 99% of what you say - a thoughtful and considered response :ok:

I think maybe wiccans bring a little of the problem on themself by use of the word "witchcraft" which conjures up images of spells, curses and devil worship which certainly play no part in the way of life adopted by any wiccans I have come across.

That said I totally agree with you about tolerance for all. I'm not a believer myself, but get really annoyed with ill-educated and just plain rude attacks on people of faith that crop up everywhere, this forum included. I see little to choose between Islamophobia, anti-Semitism or indeed intolerance of any religions (I was brought up a Catholic in a Protestant area, so was on the receiving end of plenty as a kid, and probably indulged in some myself, to my shame).

I like your example of the Indian Army btw. If they can get people to live together in mutual tolerance in a society that has all the potential to be a religious powderkeg, then that is a great achievment.

PTT
5th Feb 2010, 11:13
I think maybe wiccans bring a little of the problem on themself by use of the word "witchcraft" which conjures up images of spells, curses and devil worship which certainly play no part in the way of life adopted by any wiccans I have come across.
Is this a problem with the wiccans or with those who think they know what witchcraft is (probably largely based on Hollywoodisms)?

Agaricus bisporus
5th Feb 2010, 11:42
Sasless, explain? Most certainly.

After the heroism of that "assault" of an undefended beach under the klieg lights of the world's press there was a huge and open opportunity to disarm Mogadishu according to the UN mandate. The majority of Somalis desperately wanted an end to the slaughter and were ready and willing to disarm.
Far from carrying out their stated policy of disarmament the UN forces, which at that time were almost exclusively US plus some Pakistanis who had been there since Operation Restore Hope 1 soon withdrew into their compounds and did very little. There were some early successes at PR and they were well recieved initially but the tough Pakistani reputation that had gaied them respect amongst the Somalis (because they shot back when necessary) was not achieved by the US forces, which includes the Marines. They rapidly became despised by the Somalis as not proper warriors because thay would not reply in kind, until their Humvee patrols got to the stage of public humiliation by having ray-bans snatched from their faces by children, secure in the knowledge that no retaliation would occur. Somalis do not understand the rule of law; real men fight, the rest are beneath contempt. A vigorous application of Rule.303 gets their attention, little else. Precious little of that was seen.

They quickly hunkered down in their compounds (for the doubters the main UN compound was equipped with burger bars etc) and only appeared in armoured veghicles which even the Somalis could see meant they were frightened to come out into the open.
The mandate to resolve the famine was a waste of time as the military (which includes the USMC) refused to co-operate with humanitarian agencies in providing escorts for relief convoys outside the city as it was "too dangerous" (unarmed civvy NGO staff in soft skinned vehicles did not have a problem with that...), one "reason" being; what would they do if one of their vehicles broke down? They couldn't abandon it (why not) and it would be too dangerous to guard it overnight. It really seemed at the time that they were afraid of the dark. Are you getting my drift?

Even when convoys were reluctantly arranged at vast expenditure of effort and in the face of endless military obstruction they were almost invarialbly cancelled without warning at the last minute by the military citing "operational requirements" which were never explained, audible or visible. ("Operational" events in Mogadishu tended to be very obvious and noisy...)

Sure, there was a lot of helicopter, and larger, activity, but on the ground the 35,000 UN troops were pretty much worthless, but the risk-aversion on the ground was pathetic.

In the year I was there I think the UN forces provided maybe2 or 3 escorts for food convoys. Total. DCO, then? Not.

Little doubt, as I stated, that rules of engagement and policy let them down, but no military, except possibly the Pakistanis, and maybe the Italians, Germans and others who were fortunate enough to be up-country and not mired in Mog, left Somalia without their tails between their legs.

Not too heroic, then, after all.

So they lent spares and tools..Wow! They once gave my aeroplane 30 gallons of seawater mixed into the Avtur. That was generous too, wasn't it? But no-one suggested they were mean, just not mean enough.

And if you think this is all a bit far-fetched, read the following...

Site - Main - Reference Library (http://smallwarsjournal.com/reference/somalia.php)

Doctor Cruces
5th Feb 2010, 12:55
If any of the various gods that mankind so fervently believes in was looking after us as they all so certainlay state, the world would be a paradise with no wars, no famine, no sickness, no natural disaters..............

Therefore, no god, of any kind.

QED

Therefore, all worship spaces come under the same description.

Oh, and the "God moves in mysterious ways" argument just doesn't wash!!

Doc C
(sure to BURN!!) :\

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 13:11
They rapidly became despised by the Somalis as not proper warriors because thay would not reply in kind, until their Humvee patrols got to the stage of public humiliation by having ray-bans snatched from their faces by children, secure in the knowledge that no retaliation would occur. Somalis do not understand the rule of law; real men fight, the rest are beneath contempt. A vigorous application of Rule.303 gets their attention, little else. Precious little of that was seen.


So....if a US Marine shoots a young Skinny for stealing a pair of sun glasses that is acceptable to you? I would bet you would have been right up on a Soap Box had that happened decrying the brutality of the Marines.

I also take it....due to the absence of your complaint about the US Army....that the Army were Warriors to the man and woman....or do you hold the same view towards them as well?

I would suggest it takes more of a Warrior not to shoot someone for acts you mention.....and follow their Rules of Engagement (ROE) than to do what you endorse....kill another human being for minor theft.

If you recall....this happened under Bill Clinton....Madeline Albright....and that bunch who caused "Mission Creep" which morphed a strictly Humanitarian Mission which was a success into one of nation building where we got involved in an on-going Civil War. That is what turned the Somali's against us....not that what you suggest. It is when our forces began to forcibly disarm folks that we got into trouble and the violence mounted.

If you recall, the Germans were buying guns.....which worked. We were out there searching houses and taking guns. Our leadership once again failed us....not the Troops. They did their duty.

I watched the NGO's at work.....and especially the ones using airplanes. Now that was a waste of money if I ever saw it....the entire UN effort was one huge waste of money. You remember how many shipping containers were unaccountable for? You know how much relief supplies were being stolen right out of the Port? You recall the Black Market on Relief Goods?

What type aircraft were you flying out there and where were you quartered?

West Coast
5th Feb 2010, 18:15
Funny how you started off damning the US Marines and now that you can't provide the dirt you move on to the UN.


They rapidly became despised by the Somalis as not proper warriors because thay would not reply in kind


Bull****e. I was there. There were divides for sure. Depending on who's clan you belonged to determined the response to the UN and the US specifically.

I patrolled the streets. Did you? Are you getting your info firsthand, or as I suspect from a web site?

They quickly hunkered down in their compounds

I and many others lived in compounds, mine was the Mog airport. This was done for force protection. If I was off duty I was there, if I was on duty there was a strong chance I was outside the wire in full sight of the locals.

A vigorous application of Rule.303 gets their attention, little else. Precious little of that was seen.

Where the hell were you? I was in Mogadishu with all those noises that sounded suspiciously like gunfire. We unfortunately had a number of applications of force that were not in compliance with the strict ROE and were dealt with properly. Frankly I don't care if you or the sammies respect only the business end of a weapon, our mission was humanitarian until Clinton allowed the mission to creep. I delivered a lot of food to some hungry folks who were very grateful for it.

In the year I was there I think the UN forces provided maybe2 or 3 escorts for food convoys.

I did that in the course of a day. The more I read of your rant the more I doubt you were there despite claims otherwise. If in the slight chance you were you were no where near Mogadishu.

but on the ground the 35,000 UN troops

37,000 not 35,000

What type aircraft were you flying out there and where were you quartered?

Yes, please do answer SAS's question. It would help your credibility, I have a pretty good memory and would have dealt with you if you operated out of Mogadishu airport regularly. You know, the hub airport in country for the efforts. Same of the major airports in Kenya that were used.

If as you indicate you were a pilot you likely didn't go outside the wire and into harms way. The Mil and NGO pilots were quite happy to stay close to their planes and the safety the Marines provided. We were quite happy to give them that warm and fuzzy. That would make your observations second hand at best or as I suspect you've simply plagiarized a web site.

BEagle
5th Feb 2010, 19:11
Respect, Westie, I raise a glass to you. Is JD ok?

A very difficult mission with impossible political constraints.

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 19:12
Just another Wannabee....probably would wet his knickers if he heard a round fired in anger!

West Coast
5th Feb 2010, 22:13
Beag's
Happy to raise a drink with you. I however have learned the hard way not to try and match Brit's, Ozzies or Kiwi's drink for drink so you'll understand if I do a water shooter every now and then?

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 22:17
Drimk with Beags at your own risk Westie....he'll regale you with his exploits in bombers.....Vickers Vimy's!:ok:

BEagle
5th Feb 2010, 22:38
Oh, you...you bitch you, SASless!

Although I have actually seen a Vimy flying* - in 1969.....

Sounds like you met a hard drinking team, Westie! Of course such things would doubtless offend some of the wet pants brigade in these PC days.


*In 1919, a local Irish press reporter announced that the first negro aviators had crossed the Atlantic in a Vickers Vimy. "Well now, are you sure of that, Seamus?" asked his incredulous editor. "Well, sorr, I only have the word of the ladies who were there. They said the crew was 'all cock - and brown', so I tink they was a couple of black fellows, to be sure".

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 22:43
Beags....you sweet talking rascal you!:oh:

Jolly Green
6th Feb 2010, 01:45
This was in today's newspaper. Lt Gen Gould is the Superintendent (commander) of USAFA.

GUEST COLUMN: At the U.S. Air Force Academy, it's all about mutual respect | mutual, gen, academy - Opinion - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO (http://www.gazette.com/opinion/mutual-93684-gen-academy.html)


GUEST COLUMN: At the U.S. Air Force Academy, it's all about mutual respect

Comments 9 (http://www.pprune.org/#slComments) | Recommend (javascript:recommendReview('Articlecolgazette93684'))4



February 04, 2010 8:25 PM



By Lt. Gen. Michael C. Gould
In the last several days, you’ve read or heard or seen that the Air Force Academy (http://www.gazette.com/sections/sports/afa/) has established an area for earth-centered worship. Some of what you read or hear is sensationalized. I want to separate fact from fiction.
We made the decision to add a worship area for followers of earth-centered religions based on religious rights outlined in the U.S. Constitution. The stone circle is located atop a hill overlooking the visitor center and is the latest addition to a collection of worship areas that already include Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist sacred spaces.
The United States Air Force remains neutral regarding religious beliefs and will not officially endorse nor disapprove of any faith, belief or absence of belief. The earth-centered spirituality group that meets at the Air Force Academy falls within the definition of religion as defined in the United States Air Force Instruction 36-2706 which states:
“A personal set or institutional system of attitudes, moral or ethical beliefs and practices held with the strength of traditional religious views, characterized by ardor and faith and generally evidenced through specific religious observances.”
Earth-centered worship falls under this definition. Adding the earth-centered worship circle was done so in response to the request of both cadets and active duty personnel who asked that their religion be accommodated by the Air Force Academy chaplaincy.
Therefore, it is our obligation, my obligation, to accommodate the group’s religious requirements in a manner that is fair and consistent with other religious groups who are accommodated at the academy.
You may have also heard that a cross was found at the site. The cross was made of railroad ties left at the earth-worship site. This topic has also been extensively covered and not always accurately.
Though we don’t know the circumstances behind this incident, whether it was a malicious act or not, or even if academy personnel were involved, we directed an inquiry that is ongoing. If we find that this is an intentional incident and identify those responsible, we’ll take the appropriate action.
But we take this seriously and on the 2nd of January I personally talked to my senior staff to reiterate the academy’s stance on respect and dignity. Since then, our dean of faculty has addressed this with her faculty and staff, our commandant of cadets has talked to the entire cadet wing, our athletic director has talked with our coaches and physical fitness and administrative staffs, our prep school commander has talked with his staff, and the 220 cadet candidates, and the commander of our air base wing has done the same with his staff.
Our message is simple: We are taking this incident very seriously and conducting an inquiry. We absolutely do not stand for any type of destructive behavior or disrespect for human dignity.
The Air Force Academy is not the first Air Force institution to accommodate earth-centered religions and we won’t be the last. However, at the Air Force Academy the issue of religion is far greater than accommodation; it’s about religious respect.
The mission of the United States Air Force Academy is to educate, train and inspire men and women to become officers of character to lead the United States Air Force in service to our nation. We are dedicated to creating a learning and training environment where cadets can realize their highest potential regardless of their religious or other beliefs.
Cadets learn that to succeed as an Air Force officer they must be able to support and respect the people who we lead, serve with and fight alongside even if they do not share our personal beliefs.
Cadets learn that every service member is charged with defending freedom for all Americans, and that includes the freedom to practice a religion of their choice or to not practice any religion at all.
Cadets learn that it is a great honor and privilege to wear the uniform of our armed services and serve to protect freedom, to include religious freedom.
On graduation (http://www.gazette.com/graduation) day, the same day as they are awarded a commission as second lieutenants in the United States Air Force, they will take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
At the Air Force Academy we focus and will continue to focus on respect for human dignity to ensure all personnel respect the spirit and intent of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
This is our common duty as members of the United States Air Force.

Tankertrashnav
7th Feb 2010, 08:35
All good stuff and very sensible.

However if that guy Gould had done the RAF Junior Staff course he'd have been slated for that piece of writing. I'm reminded of that quote which goes something like "I apologise for the length of this letter, I did not have time to write a short one", variously attributed to Doctor Johnson, Winston Churchill and others.