An open letter to the owners of PPrUNe regarding advertising

[Wannabe24]

What gives?

Why have PPrUNe's new owners become so anti-pilot? Why do you allow advertising by companies and individuals which are hell bent on destroying the livelihoods of pilots? The latest one, advertising the services of the devil himself, Mr Jonathan Curd of ATP Fame (now rebranded as a320typerating.com) pops up on every other click. This is a forum for pilots to discuss the industry, terms and conditions and jobs. It attracts pilots for this very reason. I find it totally disgusting that you are using the high readership of this site to sell advertising to firms which are ruining the industry.

This, forum, was originally created by a pilot. I wonder if the man himself, Danny Fyne would allow adverts that advertise Pay To Fly Schemes? Surely the new owners recognise the need to protect the pilot's career a little bit? We are the reason you can sell advertising space. Please understand our point of view. 9/10 people absolutely abhorr what firms such as atp, a320typerating are doing.

Should the owners of PPRuNe stop selling advertising space to 'pay to fly' organisations? - Take Poll (http://www.learnmyself.com/poll37105x654aD260)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Your complaint has been noted and filed.

Now carry on using the free service....


WWW

[The Mixmaster]

Pprune seemed to exist above the breadline before these pay to fly schemes started advertising on here.

Considering the advertising rates on here, would pprune really suffer financially if these parasitic companies were banned from advertising. IMO Pprune loses a lot of credibility with its most seasoned posters warning against the dangers of SSTR, yet a simple click on a banner will allow you to sign up for this industry destroying practice.

[Nearly There]

I would like to think that anyone with an ounce of common sense, integrity and have researched the industry, are aware of these 'schemes' and will ignore the adverts....

..... whilst pprune takes their money and keeps the site free so more of us can discuss how awful and degrading they are.

[student88]

If they upset you that much, don't look.

Gordon Brown upsets me, but I can't do anything about having him despatched.

Lifes a bitch sometimes.

[SloppyJoe]

WWW,

You say now carry on using the free site as if it is not our place to have issues with this and should be thankful that the site is free and keep quiet.

The reason the site is free is if you had to pay for it everyone would use another forum, it being free means there is a huge number of hits on this site which in turn means it is possible for the owners to make money from it. It is free to use so that it is possible to make money for the owner not out of the goodness of their hearts to work for free providing the site for us.

[average bloke]

Totally agree with sloppyjoe. Maybe there should be a boycott of the site if this advertising continues!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

SSTR schemes are evil.

We take money off them by charging for advertising.

We then comprehensively slag them off, in detail and depth, and provide ample amplified reasons and examples of how they screw you up.

And this upsets you?

I struggle with the logic of that to be honest. I can imagine why people are disgusted by the aviation magazine racket who never bite the advertising hand that feeds them. Very rare and very placid is the editorial comment from Pilot or Flyer that denounces the training organisations involved in this 6 figure racket.

There will be no boycotts of any legal product wishing and willing to pay the rates we charge for advertising. The revenue is needed to keep this huge web forum running as well as it does.


WWW

[Groundloop]

I wonder if the man himself, Danny Fyne would allow adverts that advertise Pay To Fly Schemes?

If memory serves me right, Danny used to work for an airline that offered "Pay To Fly" schemes (in his pre-Virgin days that is)!

If someone on PPRuNe clicks on one of these adverts and signs up for such a scheme completely ignoring all the threads and sage advice which advise against such schemes then they are complete idiots.

If PPRuNe didn't carry such adverts it could possibly close and then would not be around to advice against signing up!:\

[Muddy Boots]

WWW,

This is very topical, I'm watchng CNBC right now talking about how CBS have rejected some ads to be shown during the Super Bowl as they felt the content wasn't fit for the subject matter. It really doesn't hurt to be a little selective and it makes the other advertisers more appreciative.

Muddy Boots

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh do just piss off.

Taking money off those whose business case you comprehensively revile and rail against is poetic justice writ large.

You've zippo rights to start lecturing us about how we should run and fund our website. Where were you in 1998 when Danny and Rob asked me to run a new Wannabes forum on a then new bulletin board format? I don't care where you were but I was here and your tiny, silly, newbie opinions are laughable, risible and wrong.

PPRuNe is a mildly benevolent dictatorship. All the stronger for it. All the more successful. Feedback is always welcome. We just reserve the right to ignore it or tell you to piss off. :hmm:

WWW :hmm:

[average bloke]

Having integrity is important if you want the site to be taken seriously. This includes selecting appropriate advertisers. Maybe these PTF/SSTR ads should at least be removed from the wannabees section. It is akin to advertising cigarettes in schools!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No, its not. Which someone with an IQ of 80 could grasp.

See above.


WWW

[flyvirgin]

I hate to admit this, and it breaks my heart to, but I totally agree with WWW,
Pprune are taking the money off this company, supplying you with one of the best forums around, and still people moan,
If you don’t like it, don’t look at it, simples,
People would soon be moaning, or soon bugger of if they had to pay a subscription fee for the site,
Gosh,:ugh:

[Scott Diamond]

Totally agree with sloppyjoe. Maybe there should be a boycott of the site if this advertising continues!

I must say, average bloke, one would love watching you trying to boycott such a huge forum. Good luck with it as you'd need loads of it. :)

[First.officer]

Have to say i agree with WWW and flyvirgin on this - might as well take the advertisers money - plenty of advice for newbies etc. on here regarding SSTR etc. and as stated by WWW, take the money off them for advertising as they take money from newbies (albeit on a much smaller scale of course lol) - and if people really think that just by viewing an advert it will entice someone to sign up then i fear hope is lost for all in the aviation world !!!

Hmmm.......sorry.......must go.......seen an advert for Airbus training......must sign up.....must sign up......must sign up......resistance is futile....lmao

:E

[PPRuNe Towers]

We thoroughly enjoy the squaring of the circle.

They pay for us to make sure you can get the true picture.

It's like the dealers paying for junkies rehab

Rob

[mutt]

Havent you heard of AD BLOCKERS???? If the ads offend you, then block them.

Mutt.

[Muddy Boots]

WWW,

Play nicely, if we were to tell you where to go you'd pull our posts.

Who's in charge of those in charge?

Muddy Boots

[PPLWannabe]

An ethics question on a rumour network?

Seriously, without getting involved in the main thrust of the topic; if you're using Firefox, right click on the advert, select 'Block images from...'


Personally I appreciate the ability to get advice for free; if the Devil is hosting, then there is a certain humour about his estate preaching the virtues of God ;)

[S.F.L.Y]

Having integrity is important if you want the site to be taken seriously. This includes selecting appropriate advertisers. Maybe these PTF/SSTR ads should at least be removed from the wannabees section. It is akin to advertising cigarettes in schools!

No, its not. Which someone with an IQ of 80 could grasp.

Is this answer an example of the forum "quality" some people are paid to maintain??

Not very different from the mindset of SSTR or so called recruitment companies constantly polluting the screen. I can imagine how it feels for grounded colleagues to be regularly reminded that they need to pay to get a job...

Thanks for keeping us current with the industry's reality.

[unimuts]

I think PPRUNE is a great service for users to have for free, yes lots of information pooled together in a central source for all to see, use, contribute to etc.

I think to take the money from companies like this for PTF schemes, is only a short term gain. I cant really see any sense or benefit in it other than financial. :confused: They dont have to advertise to cause a discussion or talking point, we already have it.

It really doesn't do anything to enhance, enlighten or better the industry, which i thought was the corner stone of PPRUNE.

So really is it worth it to allow them to promote themselves here ? Is it just for financial gain ?

Would friends of the earth advertise Coal fired powered stations ? Vegan's advertising local meat shops to stimulate conversation and or for financial reasons ?

So what would it take to have an advert given the no no ? What is the standard the bench mark, the foundation, here on PPRUNE ?

WWW, I am sorry but I think Muddy boots does have a point, and your response from a person in your position was a little strong.

Telling someone to piss off really isnt called for by anyone in public or on these forums. Standards need to be met a base line needs to be kept.

I don't think this is an easy matter, but I do believe in PPRUNE, but perhaps we all need to practice what we preach.

Good luck to all in finding work for 2010,

Uni

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This isn't the Womens Royal Auxiliary Balloon Corps you know!

YouTube - The Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJyFL3h5WI)


We don't have a corner stone or a remit to improve and enhance the industry. If we do - on this forum - have anything its a dogged determination to provide a counterweight to the cavalcade of marketing bull**** spewed out by the phalanx of vested interests intent on separating a Wannabe from his money by means of his dreams.

You don't get that elsewhere.


WWW

[helldog]

Great topic, this is what pprune is here for. Quite a few interesting points raised. I think we should give WWW the benefit of the doubt, most of us (me included) would have no idea what it takes to keep a site like pprune running and providing the great user experience it does.

Yes the ads are hard to swallow, particullarly if you are a family man, with loads of experience and you realise that these advertisers and the people taking up their offers are ensuring you never get a job on an A320 or a B737. It is sickening but its the world we live in.

I would love to see IFALPA place something similar to a hiring ban on operators that take these guys on for line training.

[PPRuNe Towers]

I notice nobody has joined the dots regarding the advertising yet despite it presenting a very telling picture.

Lifers on the wannabees forum will remember ad after ad for easyJet, Ryanair, agencies and smaller airlines. Not one off's - there was 5 solid years of it.

Have a look now and use your skill and judgement. Are the present advertisers seeking to give you money, salary, wages as above or do they advertise so as to take money from you?

There is a very simple correlation for you to make that tells you everything you need to know about the market.

Regards
Rob

[average bloke]

No, its not. Which someone with an IQ of 80 could grasp.

Just because you disagree with a point does not give you the right to question my intelligence. I will not stoop so low as to question yours for making the remark.

The point I am trying to make is that taking money from any source, regardless of whether that source is a moral one or not, in order to sustain your business (ie this forum), is exactly the same behaviour exhibited by those associated with PTF/SSTR. Just because it is legal does not make it acceptable, regardless of whether you see any attached irony or poetic justice!

Where were you in 1998 when Danny and Rob asked me to run a new Wannabes forum on a then new bulletin board format? I don't care where you were but I was here and your tiny, silly, newbie opinions are laughable, risible and wrong.

I was working in another industry, saving up to fund modular training. Not that I see any relevance to the question, but I can assure you I am no newbie.

There are many people in this industry who have had the sh*t kicked out of their careers during this recession. Personally, I am lucky to still be working, but have had one redundancy, and am staring another in the face. PTF/SSTR puts a block in the road to any return to a normal career for many people. It may not have affected you personally, good for you.

Keep taking the money. It makes your railing against PTF hollow.

[PPRuNe Towers]

But AB, the advertising has paid for you to view the site over the last 4 or 5 years since you registered.

You (collectively) have never given the site anything to keep it appearing every day.

How do you reconcile that with your blanket protest?

Regards
Rob

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just because it is legal does not make it acceptable

Yes. It does.

WWW

[fly_antonov]

I believe that overall it should be seen as something negative or unethical.

One sign-up to the scheme is equivalent in money to 10 years of advertising on this website.
In 10 years worth of advertising, I can see dozens joining the scheme after discovering it on this website, knowing how things go.

Being selfish is the definition of being a human being and I believe that pprune.org, which is run by human beings will do what serves its purpose best.
It' s for Pprune.org to know what they do with their website, so viewers either visit or leave.

You don' t go to someone else' s house to tell them that you don' t like what you see there.

If pilots hadn' t been selfish, then these schemes would not have seen the daylight in the first place.

A forum costs as much to operate as you would want it to. There are countless forums out there operated by amateurs who don' t see the need to make a penny out of it.
This forum is operated by professionals who maintain it for the purpose of making money out of it, which is their right.

Bottom line being, if you want to do something about it, build your own ethical forum and who knows, maybe we' d all migrate towards it.

[BoeingMEL]

...spoiling Pprune. It's the endless line of whinging "expert" teens and twenties who've never sat at the pointy end of public-transport aircraft... yet want to change everything they encounter. Well you guys and gals, here's some free advice:

1 If you don't like what you see, just push the "off" switch!

2 If you don't care for your chosen profession - get out!

This website is a jewel... for priceless information. It's FREE FFS! But you do need a modicum of intelligence to find, absorb, understand and APPRECIATE it! :ugh: Jeez.

bm

[S.F.L.Y]

You (collectively) have never given the site anything to keep it appearing every day.

How do you reconcile that with your blanket protest?


Thousands of internet forums are running for free, without members or advertisers support. Without the participation of its members PPRune wouldn't get the benefits of any advertiser. I would be really surprised if the real operating costs of this forum were in the same range than the generated advertising revenues.

The only reason why the flying crew sector has been degrading so fast is that no one stands to stop such abuses. Having SSTR businesses and their supporting recruitment companies advertising everywhere in a major flying crew forum without any objection is typically how we get continuously abused.

Not having any consideration for members objecting with this practice isn't the way standards will be improved, while shifting to a more understanding platform could be an interesting symbol.

[S.F.L.Y]

If you don't care for your chosen profession - get out!

It's precisely because we care that we dare to make the remark, which by the way isn't only shared by wannabees...

This website is a jewel... for priceless information. It's FREE FFS!

Would you be kind enough to explain me how the priceless information provided by fellow members are necessarily requiring financing? The value of this forum's content comes from its members. The same members posting the same content on a free forum would give similarly valuable information. But you do need a modicum of intelligence to find, absorb, understand it.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Thousands do run free. Danny and I paid for PPRuNE for the first 5 years and subsidised it long after that.

However, the scale of it needs advertising. One thing we are never short of here is people in the IT game and I think they can give an honest assessment of whether they personally would happily be able to pay the bill for 70,000 visitors a day, 24/7 tech support on multiple load balancing servers and back up array.

We set the ad rates and you can click in the yellow bar to see them. They're traditionally set at one month's advertising for the cost of one day's freelance captain's rate for a smallish aircraft.

However, far more interesting to me is the dearth of such comments over on the magazine forums. They are absolutely swamped with the glossy advertising, spin and PR.

Do their editors and writers give the blunt reality you find here?

Do any of them offer the real life flight deck experience we do year after year?

Are they intrinsically uncritical of all FTO marketing activity for as long as they've been published?

Have any of them ever published an expose of schools, standards or simply warned that a school or FTO was in difficulties but still taking money?

All that's bread and butter for us. It's been provided to wannabees free of charge for more than 11 years. If you want to shoot the messenger go right ahead. Or alternatively have the guts, conviction and energy to set up your own effort.

And if your short on energy but still full of fire let's have a competition: Who among you can be the first to have a sharp, critical letter regarding advertising published in one of the glossy GA mags?

Now don't be shy and leave up to someone else - I'll take the winner flying.

Rob

[BoeingMEL]

...if it's so easy to establish a conduit/vehicle to provide a global link...24/7... between those seeking information..and those qualified to give it...all free from paid advertising... why don't you do it?

WWW..isn't it time to bar some of the t:mad:ers?

[flyvirgin]

PPruneTowers,
Why do you need to explain yourself to these people, you and the other guys do an amazing job running this forum.
Boeingmel if the bar these people, they will set up new accounts, so it makes no odds.

[S.F.L.Y]

Baring people just because they share a different point of view? That's an interesting approach of the forum's concept :}

Nobody's said there shouldn't be any ad, the point was made in regard to support provided to unethical businesses.

Thinking that paid administrators should bar people complaining about such practices is basically demonstrating how wrong is the situation.

Dozens of professional and ethical companies could be advertising instead of pimping wannabees and job seekers.

[PPRuNe Towers]

No pay for running PPRuNe SFLY

Bottom right corner of every forum listing. Ask them yourself. Each and every one putting something back into aviation.

Those advertising now absolutely, definitely and definitively reflect the aviation market now and for the forseeable future.

And that backs up everything told to wannabees by us for the last two and a half years.
Don't spend anything you can't afford to lose totally sums it up.

Rob

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thinking that paid administrators should bar people complaining about such practices is basically demonstrating how wrong is the situation.



a) Nobody has been barred, and

b) Nobody pays us anything


Other than that, spot on.

WWW

[L'aviateur]

Not quite sure whether some of the posters here realise that this is a not a publically operated website, and the moderators of this forum, as of any forum similar to this, are in control of the content and can do as they please. If people chose not to use the forum because they dislike the modus operandi then they easily post elsewhere...
Would a few people leaving affect the 70,000 visitors per day...

Couldn't help getting drawn into this, but couldn't believe the stupidity from some of the posters on here...

[First.officer]

Well, i'm glad the powers that be here on PPrUNE provide a forum for all to post, F.O.C. and for me to read at my leisure - i really for the life of me cannot see the problem with paid advertising - if i choose to disagree with the advert then i choose to ignore it - simple !

Of course, maybe the flipside for the objectors would be to pay for an advert to run alongside/in addition to the SSTR etc. advertisements warning of the pitfalls for new guys to consider when choosing the relevant advertisers' services and how it affects us all ?? in fact, maybe a huge advertisment billboard at airports as per Ryanair and EasyJet currently have advertising their low cost flights, explaining to the general public at large how these low cost flights are in part funded by high debt, low hours guys who strive to carry out a job we all love but are gradually being exploited to ever worsening T's & c'S to enable the market to continue "as is" and fares to remain artificially low ?? Slight thread drift there......sorry.......just an idea.....maybe even BALPA could help fund the public awareness campaign ?!?! hahah - now i'm definitely not in the real world !!

:E

[helldog]

I bet porn sites would pay loads more than SSTR advertisers, not that I would be clicking on any of their links;)

[Dave Gittins]

Quite frankly PPRuNe can advertise mustard gas and used panties for all I care. It's my choice .... just like with the McD adverts on TV whether I indulge in the product or not.

I, for one, am perfectly happy with the site as it is - the most authoritative sources on aviation of every type (where else could I exchange views with John Farley or others of his stature ?) and some of the most entertaining bickering on earth (the Concorde thread).

I'm just sorry if I am sometimes a pain to somebody with a hard task and the only reward being a warm feeling inside of a job well done (eh Rob ?)

Keep it up.

DGG :ok:

[PPRuNe Towers]

You might say that Dave, I couldn't possibly comment :}

[Prophead]

Aren't the adverts paid per click?

If you really want to help Pprune and take money out of the PTF companies pockets then click away!

Just dont sign anything!!

[Halfwayback]

paid administrators

...now that would cause a few smiles if true! All the Mods are unpaid volunteers!

The catch-all at login is to prevent some of the cyber-attacks that have overloaded the system and brought the site to its knees in the past.

HWB

[S.F.L.Y]

paid administrators ...now that would cause a few smiles if true! All the Mods are unpaid volunteers!

So where is all the money going to?

[PPRuNe Towers]

The owners of the site in California.

They run the servers and back office so we can concentrate on running the site.

That way you get 14 years of service run by working airline pilots instead of cubicle bunnies.

Rob

[Groundloop]

So where is all the money going to?

The owners of the site in California.

They run the servers and back office so we can concentrate on running the site.

That way you get 14 years of service run by working airline pilots instead of cubicle bunnies.

Anyone who was a PPRuNer in the old days will remember the constant struggle Danny used to have in running the site and always struggling to buy newer faster servers as the membership grew.

[Buter]

Aren't the adverts paid per click?

Nope.

Clicking on an advert will do nothing more than click through to whatever URL is assigned to the image.

PPRuNe's rates aren't even CPM (click per milia) like almost every other website I can think of. You simply pay for the size advert you want and the length of the campaign.

From experience, a one month campaign will get you a ridiculous amount of impressions. The click through rate on PPRuNe is very low, in my limited experience, and the conversion rate is almost non existent. I can only assume that most organizations use this site primarily for branding purposes or to imprint their organizations into the brains of the less mentally endowed in order to encourage the much cherished 'parting of the cash.'

Why is your computer configured to see the adverts? I forgot that there even was advertising on this site.

It really does boil down to a few simple observations -

Why the :mad: does an American media company care if a flight training organization advertises on its website just because a few of its non paying patrons do not like the fto or the training on offer?

Why are you not laughing about the fto's advertising money being wasted on you?

Why are you bitching about a service that is free to you?

Cheers

Buter

ps - Prophead, if not obvious, only the info wrt the pay per click was directed at you.