Excessively long ATC instructions

[Alex HH]

Do ATC have guidelines for the maximum length of an ATC instruction?

I find I have a brain-limit of about three sets of numbers - eg a heading, an altitude, and (say) a speed. More than three sets of numbers (eg add frequency change to that list) and I am lost.

If I know I am going to get a long instruction (eg especially taxi instructions) I write it down - but that is not practical for every ATC instruction in the air.

[SilentHandover]

For the UK this is taken from the MATS Part 1

j) Messages should not contain more than three specific phrases comprising a clearance, instruction or pertinent information. In cases of doubt, e.g. a foreign pilot having difficulty with the English language or an inexperienced pilot unsure of the procedures, the number of items should be reduced and if necessary passed,and acknowledged, singly.

[Alex HH]

Thanks, glad to realise I am not abnormally brain-limited - I will remind the controller of that next time I get a four phraser!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm sure it used to be no more than two when Pontius was a Pilot... and should never contain a frequency change.

[ab33t]

Don't feel lonely many a day that I have had to ask for a repeat .

[ozineurope]

My two cents worth

Most ANSPs provide guidelines for controllers based on human factors research. So never should anything requiring a readback be given with a frequency change. Just makes sense really, '..climb FL130 contact centre on120.8...' that would be dumb.

Trouble is the kids (anyone under 35 is a kid to me!!) in this game are no longer exposed to the crews like we were previously. So they just pass on the information they need to without having a little think first, or any consideration for the phase of flight, type of weather being experienced etc etc.

I would much rather make with 3 transmissions with 3 correct readbacks rather than 1 TX with an incorrect and possibly dangerous error contained within it.

Ongoing and refresher training would address this problem, alas most ANSPs fail to provide controllers with any refresher training because of the cost. But that is another thread entirely.

[UFO Bloke]

when i had any kid try this on the NATS sims at Hurn
i always found that the phrase 'Say again'
after a long winded line would be enough to get a more thoughtful reply

also works well in the 'real world' i'm told

[Dan Dare]

If I need to take a breath mid-transmission, then I'm probably trying to say too much:oh:

[agent007]

If everyone has a wee look at CAP413 some of the answers to the comments may be answered !!! The latest edition of the CAP has a revamped chapter on military phraseology too interesting reading for some. Pilots and controllers will benefit from a quick look at the supplements to CAP413 too there's now 3 Airfield Driving, Commercial Pilots and latest on GA. Hope this helps. 007

[windowjob]

Best answer ever to this was from an old TWA pilot. After a couple of "say agains" to a long complicated transmission he just said in a slow Texan drawl " I can't write any faster than I can talk, bear that in mind and try one more time"

[Spitoon]

If everyone has a wee look at CAP413...A useful document for background reading perhaps, but only really valid advice for someone concerned with ATC and comms in the UK.

[HRW]

Say again works every time :ok:

[criss]

"Approaching traffic on 2 miles, if ready cld for immediate take-off, wind 310 degrees 5 knots, continue runway hdg climb 3000ft QNH 1018, airborne freq 128.8 bye"

[Wojtus]

Say again.

[greek-freak]

criss, is this a real quote?

[Tarq57]

...any thoughts ?
Just one; this has little to do with the thread title, which is to do with excessively long ATC instructions. But welcome to the forum.

(Put me in the <3 elements camp. Fewer if any of the elements is complex or likely to be unexpected. We have some guidance somewhere in MATS about this.)