Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

[G-FATTY]

Hi checkxp,
I did my training all modular and came out with the same pieces of paper in the end as any intergrated fATPL holder, for less than 1/2 the price (if it costs £100,000!! above)

2 years! - PPL for £6200, 45hrs
6months - ATPL groundschool fulltime Cabair £2250 + living exp. = £3,200 (good name, would recommend groundschool @ Bournemouth).
5months - Hour building @ £70ph + landing fees etc = £8500 - UK based
3months - Multi CPL/IR at PAT, Bournemouth = £26,000inc exams - (great name, instructors) + living exp.£1,600
1 week - MCC @ European = £1,900 living exp £120

Modular route......priceless!
(Total: £48,170)
under 15months taken out from completing PPL.
200.1 hours total.

I think my training was picking the best of each stage in my view. The level of training was as high as I believe it can get and I feel that each training organisation above was providing a tailor made course to suit my needs.
At the end of the day though I am not guaranteed an interview, as I believe some intergrated course offer, but I would prefer to go to an interview saying I managed my training on both cost and a hight level of training, than to turn up to an interview that was included in a package.

In answer to your question, I would have £51,830 left for a Type Rating until im evens with a intergrated students price.
If only I had that money left over!

Thought this may be of some interest. Good luck with the training.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've created this thread by lifting a post from a thread in the other forum where G-Fatty makes a wonderful contribution.

£48,000 is an achievable budget right here, right now, to get you CPL/IR Multi Frzn ATPL MCC and all from high quality training providers and all in the same time you'd spend on a full time course.

I don't think you can 'do' Oxford or CTC for less than £75k.

£27,000 buys you an awful lot of time to keep your ratings valid. It would easily cover twice over the cost of getting a type rating on a turboprop having got the nod from a small regional operator.

A much much better proposition than being the bitch of a lo-co crewing department on part time wages with zero security and no long term permanent job or benefits. Whilst having to pay back £100k loan for added misery.

For two and half years I have been shouting myself horse advising people they'd be mad to sign up to an Integrated course of any description or brand. Clearly many people ignored that advice and the reasons given and still do.

Many of them now find themselves wedged between bankruptcy, a debt/interest mountain, pay to fly 'job' offers on part time contractor terms - or let their licenses lapse and walk away a heavily indebted failure. The schools sold them the dream of a smart pilots uniform. Those uniforms though were all crotchless because the airlines were always going to be grabbing their b0llocks - not shaking their hand.

Go modular.

[INNflight]

Didn't even pay that much....could buy a 40 grand TR (not that I ever would) and would still be below the OAA integrated price tag.

(oh, I have 250hrs too...bless the US :O ...all I am saying - do your homework, don't fall for the shiny brochures)

[Jonty]

WWW, never has such good advice been so widely ignored.

I would think you could do it cheaper than that, if you went abroad for the hour building.

[golfcharlie232]

I applied to CTC last summer and changed my mind, finally went modular as I already own a PPL (which I paid €4500).
The whole thing, excluding the PPL, comes to a cost of £38,000 including hoursbuilding in the States, flight to the US and back, night rating, ATPL ground school, CPL and IR ME and MCC on a full-motion 737 simulator.
I bought a car with 3 other guys for £150 ...
It is always possible to go cheaper

[airberlin2010]

yes you will get a better value for your money
for exampel:

PPL(JAA) US = 4500 euro
ATP Knowledge(CATS) 1200 euro
H Building US = 5000 up to 7000 euro
FAA IR/MEP = 8000 euro
JAA CPL(USA) = 2500 euro
Conversion = 5000 euro
Mcc = 2000 euro

total amount = 30000 euro plus travell and living and uk exam fees

[Dane-Ger]

Here are my costs including accommodaton, flights etc etc, without an MCC though. During this all this I worked full time, apart from four months unpaid leave during the CPL and MEIR. (another thought to consider if you are going to go full time integrated)

PPL

first 30 hours free, RAF scholarship
15 hours plus exams £1000Initial Class 1 Medical
Medical at Gatwick £317
Flights to Gatwick £65 Hotel £40 ATPL Groundschool
CATS online course £999
flights to Birmingham for 3 brush up weeks £380
Train fares Birmingham to Cranfield £120
Bed and Breakfast in Cranfield 3 weeks £368
Exam fees for 14 exams (to the CAA) £868PPL Renewal at CATS
5 hours of flying including exam £600
Exam fee £168
7 PPL exams £140
CAA renewal fee £67IMC and Night Qualification at Fly in Spain

IMC
15 hours plane rental £2239
15 hours instruction £699
landing fees £174
Instrument approach fees £42
Exam Fee £200
Written exam fee £50
Plane hire for exam £217
TOTAL £3621Night qualification
5 hours plane rental £745
5 hours instruction £245
TOTAL £1070
Membership of Fly in Spain £40
Chart of Spain £10
Accomodation £200Hour Building with Big red Kite
80 hours at £79.10 (this includes, oils, avgas, parking and landing fees) £6328
Hotels £180
Flights £90CPL at Tayside Aviation Dundee
CPL Course £5500
Extra Lessons and test hire £1372
Solo hire of plane (to and from exam centre) £188
Solo hire of plane (currency) £188
simulator hire £90
Exam Fees £1271
CPL TOTAL £8609MEIR at Aerodynamics, Malaga
MEIR course (this includes exam, landing and approach fees) £10165
Accomodation £700
Flights £340
MEIR TOTAL £11,120TOTAL £36,932

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My rough calculations suggest that if you were to go the CTC route into easyJet you would take home on an average month for the whole year about £1,800 but your monthly loan repayment would be around £1,200.

You'd be living on £600 a month. You'd have A320 time in your logbook. But you'd be living on less than a grand a month for the first three years and who knows if you'd get a permanent job or merely be replaced by another person waiting to write a fat cheque for the type rating?

Both Ryanair and easyJet stop expanding their fleet by 2013 under current plans made public. No expansion means they only need a trickle of new FO's to replace those promoted to Captain who replaced those who retire or lose their medical each year.

The boom years are over.

Adjust your expectations, plans and budgets accordingly.

ps Feel free to post your training expenditure breakdowns on this thread - it reinforced the point and makes for an interesting and useful sticky.

[disco87]

Are those calculations based upon taking out a loan for the full amount?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

On being £100k in debt which was achieved by a 10 year loan at 7% being £1,161 per month plus fees.

Total repayment £139.3k in exchange for a licence and type rating you can get elsewhere for £60k cash...

[Torque Tonight]

I won't post a full breakdown because others have done much the same already.

However, three main areas where I saved money but many people fritter it away:

Groundschool and Theory Exams: Distance learning. Probably about a quarter the price of the equivalent residential classroom course. Anyone with a bit of self-motivation should be able to get themselves through the groundschool without being spoon fed by an instructor.

Hours building: Bought a share in a vintage light aircraft in the UK. £30 per hour to fly (inclusive of fuel and landings), instead of amy £120/hr for a dull C152. I can always sell the share and get my capital back but I'm choosing to keep it because this little aeroplane is good, old-fashioned, cheap fun.

Accommodation: Most people seem to pull out their bank loans and pay through the nose for hotels etc then moan about the costs. If you do a bit of homework you can generally find somewhere quite reasonable to stay for £10-15 per night even near big UK airports. Get off your ar$e go for a drive around nearby villages and look in newsagents windows for rooms and flats to let.

[UAV689]

Both Ryanair and easyJet stop expanding their fleet by 2013 under current plans made public. No expansion means they only need a trickle of new FO's to replace those promoted to Captain who replaced those who retire or lose their medical each year.

The boom years are over.

Will be interesting to see what happens to the market forces when this happens, as I would hazard a guess that fr wont take on brand new FO's after they have taken delivery of the last 737, but revert back to their old requirement which i believe was 1500 hrs a few years ago, although could be wrong.

Great thread, hope it opens the zoombie muppets eyes a bit wider.

Go modular!! If I am not mistaken can you not even do all the same modules (CPL, IR etc) modular at OAA and still save a packet off the integrated cost?

[Torque Tonight]

Yes you can. Same school. Same qualification. Less than half price. Tricky decision, eh.

[UAV689]

I hate to say it - but if that is the case it shows just how bright some of these sky gods are..Why on gods earth would someone pay that difference!! idiots!

Half of their spin is because the school is at oxford, without doubts it envokes images of the university and mummy and daddy are so proud little johhny went to oxford, didnt he do well.

I bet a school in wolverhampton would not be able to charge those fees!!

[Dane-Ger]

What about Dan-Ger? - When are those prices from?
started ATPL theory 2008, IMC and night rating feb 2009, Hour building, CPL and MEIR from April to August 2009.

[Cpt. Sunshine]

A very informative read for one of your beloved "zombie wannabes" to take in. I think ever since I started participating in PPRuNe, I've been modular all the way! To be honest, I struggle to see the pull of integrated when schools like Stapleford and Multiflight are offering zero to fATPL courses in 18 months for £30,000-£50,000. I'm no genius but twenty or thirty grand isn't to be sniffed at for brand name (might just pay the SSTR one seems required to do to get a job now). I don't support SSTR by the way!

Just a quick question from someone with plenty of time to play with (14 now, 4 more school years and possible 3 at Uni). Is it beneficial doing a degree and doing some sort of hour building/CPL training seperate from your University studies (money permitting)?

Sorry if I appear naive in what I write. I'm asking all this just as I begin my GCSE Option choices so I'm trying to plan ahead with regard to at what point I intend to do flight training and what qualifications I'm going to try and get.

Thanks for posting the figures, they were very interesting,

[EI-CON]

hi Everyone,

Just said Id throw this in! First off I agree with going modular as I did so myself. I did my PPL in a flying club very cheaply and it was the best flying I have done.

However, talking to a pilot involved in recruitment lately he told me there getting so many applications that they all initially go into a computer. The computers job is to filter them down. So it looks for kep works like maybe first time pass etc and it also goes off a list of flight schools. So if the school you trained at isnt on the list, chances are your application will never be seen by a real person and will be deleted there and then by the computer!

As I said Im all for modular I did modular myself but its an interesting point he made.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A pilot involved in recruitment?

Was he actually on the recruitment team? Because people who claim to be involved with something are often found to be quite a long way away from the action.

Who enters this data in these computers?

Who monitors the legal requirements regarding discrimination law with its huge penalties?

Sounds like bull**** to me.

[Aerouk]

I bet it was Flybe.

[BHenderson]

Electronic CV's can be searched for keywords much like Google searches the internet. Paper CV's could be scanned in before they're searched, or perhaps just ignored completely. No human bias, so no discrimination.

[G SXTY]

The modular figures being quoted are accurate. I went from zero to CPL/IR & MCC in around £45k all in, including accommodation (for the commercial training) and £1,000 or so for a partial retest of the CPL. Finished in late 2007.

I now have the same job as people who spent nearly double.

[EI-CON]

WWW, he is on the interview panel and a training captain in this airline. This is what the man told me and I dont think its illegal for an airline to prefer graduates from certain schools. If that schools graduates have met there standards why not want more of the same?

I just thought Id throw this in. I agree completely with going modular I think it makes much better pilots. Maybe just be careful which school you choose to go modular with.

Thank you Bhenderson, so looks like my post wasnt “bull****” WWW.

[Aerouk]

EIN-Con,

Who monitors the legal requirements regarding discrimination law with its huge penalties?

WWW isn't saying prefering graduates from a certain school is discriminatory, he's asking who looks after the legal requirements of any discrimination laws.

[EI-CON]

I just put this in I dont moniter the computer or work in recruitment but I would imagine its not discrimination ruling someone out because of what school they trained at. There not ruling you out because of your age or anything there ruling you out on the schools reputation just like in any other job where you might not get the job due to where you went to college or trained.

Anyways I dont want to get into the ins and outs of it as I dont work in recruitment. Just said Id put it in to try and aid people in there decision making. Take it or leave it.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'll leave it thanks.

Any recruitment process that didn't self monitor itself for discrimination would be gash and opening itself to a massive claim if it were done by any reputable employers in any reputable country.

Whatever the employer you refer to choses to do is probably indicative of the regard it is held in by other airline pilots.

That's not a compliment BTW.

[EI-CON]

And BTW its not Ryanair.

anyways back to the thread.

[GIZZAJOB]

I went modular starting in april 2008 groundschool bcft multi cpl/ir at pat and mcc at european all were top notch and I spent all together less than 40 large , adn funnily enough my blue book looks identical to the ones gained at oaa etc ect etc.
Now working as an instructor and we are getting endless cv's from many oaa/fte/cabair and even ctc graduates who arent working . and maybe by just pure coincidence none of them are time served working individuals with life experince behind them , they are all under 22 and sound like prince william , Hewitts lad .
Enjoy spending the extra money integrated wombles

[v6g]

many applications that they all initially go into a computer. The computers job is to filter them down. So it looks for kep works like maybe first time pass etc and it also goes off a list of flight schools.

So just put: "OxfordCTCJerezCabair" in 1-point font with white foreground on white background.

[robertphilpott1]

Just to add further weight to this thread, I completed my IR last week at Stapleford. Total cost (including charts, headsets and all the other misc items) was £42K from "zero to hero". Oh, this also includes the MCC course I've prepaid.

ATPL's full time via London met, hour building in the States.

When I started looking for training, CTC quoted £67K, so I feel I'm £25K in the black.

Please PM if you have any questions.

[EI-CON]

v6g maybe worth a try! :)

[flyboy1818]

Total training cost around £35K, saved a little thanks to solo hours from Air Cadets and University Air Squadron, plus getting a PPL years ago when it was much much cheaper!

All flight training in the UK apart from 40 odd hours of flying around the states, minimal debt, doing CPL and IR on a part time basis at full time speed, thanks to a very decent and understanding employer.

Integrated is rubbish and for many people I know it has meant loads of debt, no job and no future. Don't forget you need to add two years loss of income to the cost of an integrated course! I never lost a penny in earnings due to flight training!

[UAV689]

high-higher
well done!! you will look back and realise you have made the correct choice.

Remember by remaining debt free it will leave you more choices when you pass, i hope others follow your lead.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

And I know someone who graduated either beginning of last year or before from FTE and hasn't had any flying job whats so ever and he'd be £80-90k in debt/out of pocket, or his parents will I should say.

These large schools do have their airline contacts and can potentially help with getting that foot in the door, but they aren't much use right now, with airlines handing back pilots or going on flexi-contracts so they have the flexibility - but this is something one would expect whilst in a recession/difficult period, just like this Line Training payment issue.

Also a debt free pilot here with life experience, sure helps one sleep at night. ;) but taken 10yrs so far.

[moggiee]

I hate to say it - but if that is the case it shows just how bright some of these sky gods are..Why on gods earth would someone pay that difference!! idiots!

Half of their spin is because the school is at oxford, without doubts it envokes images of the university and mummy and daddy are so proud little johhny went to oxford, didnt he do well.

I bet a school in wolverhampton would not be able to charge those fees!!
I think you might be right on that last point!

[turbulentmonkey]

Just like High-higher, I have been saved. Guys like WWW get a lot of stick on here but clearly know what they are talking about. I've got a friend who just told me he's going to Oxford. Thats his decision but hey, i doubt hes done any research. A 2 minute flick through these pages and its clear to see what sort of state the industry is in. Does finishing a little quicker justify spending an extra 40 grand? Hell we wouldnt even earn that IF we got a job straight after training. Modular for me please...

[Kanu]

Cost me about 50k all in and I sold my house to pay for it. All training post PPL was with a modular schoolin the UK.

I could have saved so much money through better decisions/better luck, but I'm comfortable with the money I spent and, now employed with a TP operator in the UK, happy I did it.


Hours building in the US would have saved me thousands but on the flip side my experience of UK/EU airspace/phrasology etc wouldn't have been as sharp.

I was a knob and paid for the PPL course up front and lost half my money when welshpool went bust after completing 25 hours ish.

I could have swapped full time groudschool for distance learning but as I left education some 10 years earlier, I elected to be spoon fed the info:E


Would I do it again given the choice? yep, every time. Didn't like the house much anyway:O:O

[alphaadrian]

I think it should be remembered also that many (but certainly not all) guys&girls embarking upon an integrated course are funding their training thru the Bank of Mum and Dad. And unfortunetly its a lot easier to fritter away money that you have never actually have earned yourself.........
So the question of £££££ probably doesnt figure too high in some peoples priorities. As long as the parents can boast that "little Giles is training to be a pilot at Oxford" the FTOs have completed their part of the deal. By the way,im not having a go at anyone here..im just stating a fact!

[the.zen]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum, and i wanted to confirm that also in my country (Romania) modular training is far less that integrated one.For example:

Integrated fATPL =62.000 euros

Modular training: PPL=9.000euros (45h)
Night rating=735 (5h)
ExperiencePPL=7.350euros (50h)
Theoretical ATPL= 5.000euros (650h)
IR flight = 2.200 euros (15h)
MEP=5800 (14h)
ExperienceCPL=4410
One hour with cessna172 SEP=147euros
One hour with piper seneca MEP=421euros
If u add this it will be=33.500 but with other small expenses like licensing, R/T licence, travelling, and others it will be around 35.000-36.000 euros
So...it is a huge diference beetween the two training possibilities.
I hope this helped you,

[MARCdeHuk]

Hi Guys,

I read these threads with great intrest. From a young wipper snapper it has always been my dream to fly and up untill recently that dream has seemed a million miles away as i just did not have the financial means to fund the training. HOWEVER, now a certain twist of fate does show me some light at the end of the tunnle. Clearly from reading these forums i would not entertain an intergrated course with Oxford etc.

A few questions though that i would love you to pick away at......

1.These intergrated courses speak of contiunity of training, structured development....will recruiting airlines take this same view or are they just interested in the fact of the qualification u have rather than the way you got there....

2.I was looking at going to EFT in Florida to do a fast track cpl....$46k
for ppl,night,cpl,me,and jaa ir........this also seems very reasonable and after trauling through PPRune found hardly a bad word to say about EFT ?? But could i get better training than this at a similar price if i pick and choose between schools.......this to me just seemed sort of the best of both worlds.....good price, decent structure and time frame and what appears to be a well spoke of establishment.

thanks for your time :D

[laakdown]

WWW - you talked about FO's at EZY earning £1800 a month but having to repay loans + interest and so are living off of £600 a month, my question is if someone was lucky enough to get there and be debt free do you think it is a viable and productive route to becoming a good pilot? Would you take this route if you were starting out again now and had the money spare?

I was planning on postponing my training for a while but last month i was lucky enough to win a poker tournament for $138,000 and so now im thinking ill go for it as i can afford to not get employed the month i graduate. Thats not to say im gonna waste money i still will be going modular but i think my situation is a little more fortunate than others

[b.a. Baracus]

haha brilliant,

last month i was lucky enough to win a poker tournament for $138,000

............ You got to know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em

[Prophead]

Surely if your going to compare prices then its the amount you would pay back on a loan not what you borrow. How much does the integrated course cost then?

If you work whilst doing modular and earn a good enough salary then compared to doing a year full time integrated you may even make a profit!

[v6g]

Surely if your going to compare prices then its the amount you would pay back on a loan not what you borrow. How much does the integrated course cost then?


Depends on loan terms & interest rate but it's around the £140,000 mark. When I looked at it, I also considered the fact that it would be paid back with earnings net of marginal tax - in which case integrated costs around the quarter-million-pound point in future earnings.

Ok, so my calculation didn't allow for inflation - but whichever way you look at it, a quarter of a million pounds for a £40,000 license is dumbfoundingly crazy.

[flyboy1818]

If you work whilst doing modular and earn a good enough salary then compared to doing a year full time integrated you may even make a profit!

Correct, and I'm not skint either I live a very nice lifestyle:ok:

[SVoa]

Even though we have all agreed that modular training is far cheaper than integrated training, everyone makes their own decisions based on what makes them feel safer and more satisfied at the end of the day. However standards differ from country to country. In my country they really couldn't care less where or what training you did. If you meet the requirements they call you in for an interview (if they are hiring) and if you perform to their standards during the assessments you get the job. Speaking with a few captains who are very close to me from a UK airline and from a Greek airline, they all say the same thing: You can never tell a difference between an integrated pilot or modular. Some fo's theyve flown with from the integrated path have had very poor knowledge and flying skills, and others have been top notch. Same goes for modular pilots. And I have a friend who went to one of the big boys for integrated training, and failed an airline assessment 3 times!!! And yes he passed everything first time.

In terms of how good a pilot you become has everything to do with you as a person and the effort and work you put in it. However in some countries, like the UK, if you havent done your training at one of the big boys, you are looked down upon from the airlines or not given an equal shot at a job. This is the airlines decision and nothing anyone can do about it. From the moment that you are not assured a job by giving your loot to an integrated school why do it????

[Jerry Lee]

I think too that the modular provides you more experience and more hours of flight, and so I'm going to start with the modular within the next 2 years.
The school is in Australia, it is the MFS, and I'll post the prices in €.

PPL 6800
HB 40 hrs 4720 (PA28 118€ x 40 hrs)
IR 8700
ME 1650
Night Rating 2300
HB 25 hrs 2950 (PA28 118€ x 25 hrs)
CPL 16300
ATPL frozen 1700
theory courses (not ATPL) 3410

TOTAL (housing not included) about €48600

Is this too much?
I'd like to become a Flight Instructor too, and it costs 8200€.
I need some opinions from you expert boys:}

The licences are all CASA, then, in one next time, I'll convert it to JAA, also if I'd like to stay in Australia for ever.

[adam75]

I did :

ppl 55h ( a very long and mass up school in Milan) 10 000 euri

100 h XC ( of course in florida on pa28 ) 15 000 dollars ( with house) school was florida flyers

IR/MEP at topfly accademy in Barcelona 12500 euri 30h plane and 30 h multi simulator

CPL in greece 4000 euri with final check

on top I spent 35000-36000 euri.( i still have to do my mcc, i think to do it at european skybus in UK 2100 euri) anyway all first time pass! I don t understand people spending 80 000 for the same hours thinking they school is the best one becasue it gets so much money from them.

make it smart! all money saved for type rating and these bloody line training program:ugh::ugh:

[R2112]

Hi guys, new to the forum (first post)
I'm in no position of authority from which to comment, but I've been around and doing the research for long enough to agree totally that as far as money goes, theres really no contest. thing is, with the industry as it is, no matter which way you go, is one more likely to lead to a place in the right hand seat of ANY aircraft, be it Jet/TP/(Other?!)
I suspect not but it's a question I couldn't help but raise.

[Mikehotel152]

What's more: Modular is simply MUCH more fun! :ok:

At no other time in your life will you be able to assign a massive £5000-10000 to the joys of simply flying around the UK or somewhere interesting abroad of your choice, with your mates, eating bacon butties and gaining untold experience, all in the name of essential 'training'!

I wish I could do it all again! :)

[UAV689]

So True mikehotel!

I maybe able to do some of my hours on the fantastic chipmunk, you would get that at the OAA sausage factory! They dont know what they are missing!

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Good point indeed that Mike, flying round Florida or wherever for the "$100 burger" (invariably refuelling at Lake Okeechobee and popping in to see mates at the skydiving centre etc etc) just because you can, loved it. The flying that is, the burger wasn't bad either. Yep, agreed, I miss that too. :ok:

[benPetrarca]

I am about to do my A-levels in maths n' physics. During this time i will be saving for my PPL, most palces are asking for £6599 which is not a problem. Getting the CPL is the hardest bit as there are money implications.

Just a quick question, how many sponsored CPL go every year on average? Would it be better to finacially plan how I will get my CPL or shall i do it in chunks saving and spending on courses?

Lastly, what sort of jobs do you do when your earning money, i am looking at unskilled work right now.. Problem is that isnt a big money earner.. what sort of jobs did you do or did you take out loans?..

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ben. Don't do the PPL. To keep it current will cost you thousands. You're way way too young to be thinking about professional pilots training unless your Dad is already and airline Captain with a Porsche in the garage. Aim to start flying training when you're, oooh, 23 and have save some cash. By that time the industry will have improved and you might stand a slim chance of getting a job.

Right now. At 16. With not much money. Forget it.

[Desert Strip Basher]

While I agree this lad will have to spend money keeping current - did you ever consider that he might just enjoy it at the time - or even find out whether flying is for him?? At the very least I'd suggest a trial lesson. There's no need to be so consistently negative, particularly in this annoying style. Of short emphasising sentences. There really isn't.

[micro_burst]

benPetrarca:

If you want to start flying for the experience and shear fun of it then I suggest you try gliding. The low cost and social/volunteer side of it will really get you meeting the right people and immerse yourself in the world of flying. Many glider pilots are ex-RAF or airline pilots who can offer a wealth of information and tips, both on the industry and flying itself.

I'm 24 years old and spent 5 years flying gliders in the UK before coming out to do my PPL here on South Island in New Zealand. The experience I gained through gliding has been priceless (literally, we charged most of it to our university's union :)), and allowed me to sail through the PPL course with enough time to build up the remaining required hours doing cross-countries around this beautiful country. I'm hoping to take myself all the way to ATPL and the airlines when I return to the UK in summer, but the greatest feeling in the world at the moment is being able to take it one step at a time with enough space to breath and enjoy it too.

Check out the British Gliding Association (BGA) website Welcome to the British Gliding Association (http://www.gliding.co.uk/), or their junior section Junior Gliding - the most fun you can have in the sky (http://www.juniorgliding.co.uk/) for more information.

Plus i think they do a sponsorship each year for people around your age, so you might be able to do it for free! It really is a beautiful way to fly.

[Prophead]

If someone has managed to save either £67000 or £50000 then they are probably earning more in their current job than they would as an FO.

[IrishJason]

My god this opens up alot doors, not a hope will i go near a school now. i got the break down

ppl - half paid up front and the remainding paid half way through. €10635. half + half

Night Rating - upfront payment required. €1200

ATPL - upfront payment required. theory €3700

Hour Building - Pay as you go or pay for ten hours and get one hour free. 100 x155. €15500

Multi Engine - upfront payment required. €3195

Cpl - Half paid up front and the remaining paid half way through. €9700

ME-IR - Half paid up front and the remaining paid half way through. €15999

total €59925

[flyhelico]

I was accepted to their Integrated course but I'm increasingly tempted by modular because of the price..

congratulation, do the bank transfer now!!!

I think anyone with enough cash is "Accepted".

now they accept even airline pilots for the pay to fly scheme(the JAA P2F).

this is pathetic!

[G SXTY]

Would all of the above like to add some credibility to the point of this thread and state your current employment status and earnings?

Certainly.

I spent around £45k all in (see post 23). Finished the IR in late 2007, aged 36, with a whopping 220hrs under my belt. Q400 job offer early 2008, no charges for the type rating, uniform, crew water etc, just a 3 year bond on the TR.

Today I’m still on the Dash, and average take home is around £2,100 per month. Not a fortune, but I consider myself extremely fortunate to have a job (and if I was obsessed with earnings I'd have stayed in my previous career).

Before we all pull them out and see how high we can pee, the fact that I had trained modular rather than integrated was largely irrelevant to my airline (in fact, on my TR course there was pretty much a 50/50 split between integrated and modular people). Rather more importantly:

(a) Every low-hours candidate had been recommended by his or her school, and therefore had a sound and verifiable training record.
(b) They were then recruiting at least 10 FOs per month, meaning jobs were (relatively) plentiful.

We’re not recruiting at the moment, which means your choice of school and training route is pretty academic. However, if anyone insists on training right now – and God knows how long some of the more experienced people have been saying “Don’t do it” – then by choosing modular, you will:

(a) Save a considerable amount of money compared to integrated.
(b) Have the opportunity to train part time and thus work to finance your training.
(c) Be able to slow down or even accelerate your training to match the job market.
(d) End up with exactly the same licence at the end of it all.

[fabbe92]

Some time ago, I was a slave of the integrated pr tricks as you may remember. But along the way I thought about it and researched and now I have understod that my future will be so much brighter, if I go modular. I thank you very much for spending the times arguing with me in the long posts hehe.

Anyway I am not an expert on this area. I´ve completed my PPL and as I am 18 years old now, I still have one year left in upper secondary school. If I would be starting training now, I would go for modular instantly, regarding the situation we are in nowdays. But the industry tend to change. I mean, I will most likely start my training some time between September 2011 and January 2012. What if during that time + the time it takes for me to complete my training, everything will change and the big boys will start hiiring again. BA wil open it´s OAA program again etc. And let´s say the industry will start rolling again slowly during my training and I will end up, graduating when it has turned for the worse once again.

What I´m saying is. Modular is the best option now when there is no jobs and you want your training to go slow. But will it be the best later on when maybe, the airlines starts hiiring again?

This is the idea I have gotten now through many people that support integrated. Is there any truth to this or is it just pure ********?

Thanks again and long live modular!!:D

[riche_777]

Im planning to do my CPL in europe, i am from india,

i am confused over choosing jerez or oxford and the opportunities associated with the school once i finish my course :), i am an indian national so wondering if airlines in europe would consider,

on the other hand should i take up a integrated or modular and skip ATPL THEORY IF I WISH TO RETURN TO INDIA AND CONVERT MY LICENCE !??

DO Oxford or jerez offer integrated courses skipping ATPL ?

DOES OXFORD AND JEREZ COURSES INCLUDE TRAINING RIGHT FROM UR PPL TILL ATPL ? ( AS THEIR INTEGRATED AND MODULAR COURSE DOES NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT PPL ! on the wesite)

[dragqueen120]

Didnt read all the pages of this thread however got the gist:


Hope my info helps peeps save money, I found it the best value for money (so far)

Do PPL(A) and PPL (H) £££ depends on you I supose

ATPL Ground school is just 1 more exam now so an extra £66 £3k total

The nice thing is now....get your IR and CPL on the fixed wing then take advantage of the dispensations given by the CAA towards the ATPL H. IR is a 10 hour conversion pluss a type rating (budget £30k depending how good you are) CPL you only need 105 hours.

Not for every one I supose, but not a bad way of grabbing a really usefull ticket to ride, it also gives you great versatility in the market.

Good luck all! and dont forget.....its only money!:{

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Boeing/Airbus major airline jobs are ten-a-penny compared to helicopter jobs...

Other than that a fine plan!

[Pilot Positive]

DO Oxford or jerez offer integrated courses skipping ATPL

No they do not.

The reason for a zero2hero course is to provide a consistent structure of study through which individual performance can be constantly monitored. When the airlines decide to look at hiring ab-initio guys they can see how each has fared and developed in an intensive learning environment. A seemless training program - it is hoped - minimises airline training risk.

The notion of doing an integrated program is, in this current climate, a little optimistic since the airlines are not hiring ab-initio directly at the moment anyway (regardless of what the likes of OAA will tell you)...not unless you've got another £30K odd to spend on a limited PTF program that is.

With regards to Modular students: G SXTY is a good example of success. If I'm right in thinking, the airline he/she works for and at the time of hiring actually rejected a batch of "recommended" integrated students a while back because they were so poor - and yet they originated from a well known FTO. They took modular guys instead. This same airline, at the time of hiring, openly welcomed applications from modular guys who had trained at not more than 2 FTOs.

There are requirements to do modular flight training (none for ATPL theorey) with OAA and Jerez and you may want to check LASORS for them.

LASORS: LASORS 2008 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

Good luck :ok:

[Poeli]

And if I get my PPL in a local flying club, does this count as a 'school'?

[G-FATTY]

I've just seen my post has been made in to a sticky, which was not intentional!

I completed my MCC at European in Bournemouth in June last year, all the training was done with out any time off inbetween, the hour building was slightly longer than I hoped due to the typical northern weather between September and Feb.

For my training I appreciate it was still not the cheapest way to get the pieces of paper, however I wanted to do all my training within the UK, as it was important for me to train in the UK airspace, with the weather and to get the most out of it.
I had heard of peoples experiences that being shipped off to the States was not as promised in the PPL brochures (the ones with 737s glossy pictures on the front!)
I looked around 3/4 flying schools before selecting the right one, you can't really do that in America..

The costs I initially put up are current to this day, and I think if I were to do it again I could make it cheaper with the PPL on a Cessna 150/152, and make sandwiches rather than have all day breakfasts for lunch!

PPL, go for a simple 2 seater.
Groundschool, checkout groundschools for offers - or possibly distance learn?
Hour building, buy in to a 100hr building package.
CPL/IR - If you are going for a multi-engine rating, I would suggest doing the CPL.IR all in the multi, otherwise you will be learning to fly two aircraft. Keep it simple!
MCC - 737-200 at European in Bournemouth can not be beaten! Top quality course, lower prices than some static King Air sims, Instructors who can not be beaten on knowledge, and lets face it you have a go in a 737 for the first time!

Accommodation whilst doing the full time ATPL groundschool, some guys I knew hired their own house during the time and shared the costs between them, worked out very cheap, and shared lifts to/from the airport.

These are my thoughts, some of you I am sure will have better/different views!

[Pilot Positive]

And if I get my PPL in a local flying club, does this count as a 'school'?

Yes, it does. However, if where you get your PPL from isnt able to accommodate next stages of training i.e. MECPL/ME-IR then no problem. Simply ensure that all the remainder is done in one place.

Employers are not so happy to see PPL done at one school, MECPL done at another, then ME-IR at another school with MCC done at a 4th school!! As said before they want to be able to track your progress from one source with a view to minimising training risk.

If you are going to train commercially attempt to do it all in one place and committ to it full time so you benefit from that continuity of training.

:ok:

[quagmire_alrightt]

hi everyone
New here on this forum, not a professional pilot yet, but looking closely to start training in a month or so.

Sounds a good argument everyone has going on here, been scanning through an i think the modular way will be the route im going to take. been looking at doing from 'zero to hero' at flight academy blackpool, which at the moment have just started a scheduled modular course.

would just like a few pilots opinion on this flight school, are they successful? a recognise school with airlines? and does it seem worth going for, hopefully to complete in 4 years time?

the website is www.fablackpool.com (http://www.fablackpool.com) if you have time to have a look.:ok:

[Poeli]

So joining a flying club while I'm getting my degree is no problem as long as I stick to one school to get my other licences?
Thnx!

[Pilot Positive]

Exactly! :ok:

It certainly helps to have continuity at a formulative stage.

[arnaud27400]

Hi to everyone
i'm new in PPPRUNE and i'm from france
so i'd like to know if someone could help me ...

so i'd love to be a pilot its my passion:)
i started my ppl in france and i done about 20 h and i'm doing good they say:ok:

so im in florida right now and i'd like to finish my ppl in the US and do my CPL and IR
i'm lost because there is so many pilot schools :ugh:
i heard about EFT thats all

so if someone can help me !
i dont mind about florida i can move to any states but i need a school with facilities

thanks

[GreenBlueYellow]

Hi,

Another newbie here, but im wondering has anyone tried this route, and more importantly gotten a job from it?

JAA Professional Pilot | Angel City Flyers, Inc. (http://www.angelcityflyers.com/courses/jaa-professional-pilot/)

Basically, you do all your training in the states under an FAA PPL, add the ratings on to it as you go and then convert the lot to a JAA licence at the end in stapleford...

Oh, the only thing missing from that is you have to do the JAA ATPL exams seperately before you can convert, but it is possible to do those on the cheap post-ppl on the side...

I know PTC (waterford, ireland) do something similar as an integrated course and it still magically works out at some ridiculous figure too...

So im wondering... has anyone tried a route similar to this and actually gotten a job from it?

By the way, for disparity, im not talking about doing your JAA training course in the states directly like they do at Naples or Ormond Beach. I'm talking about doing your training under an FAA licence and then converting that...

[TL638]

I have been researching training options for quite some time and have been told many a time that the Airlines prefer students fresh out of integrated courses. Is this not true? I was told at a recent seminar that BA for example take the top 2-3 students from integrated courses conducted by Oxford, Cabair, CTC and FTE.

I would much rather pay twice the price for an Integrated course if it gave me a better chance of getting a job at the end of it.

What do you boys think :hmm:

Cheers

[GearDownFlaps]

wake up and smell the marketing staff cheap instant coffee:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Whirlygig]

Is this not true?No.

What do you boys thinkBoys indeed.

[Pilot Positive]

TL 638 check post #72 on this thread.

[MartinCh]

I would much rather pay twice the price for an Integrated course if it gave me a better chance of getting a job at the end of it.Striking as this sort of opinion happens to pop up all the time and much more.
Then some criticise WWW's blunt choice of vocab and calling someone 'zombie army' and headless lemmings. :ugh:

'Boy', did you check current job prospects and for next few years to come, or are you just plain brainwashed by one of the 'pilot seminars'?

Yes, you get what you pay for. Whether it's over the odds, who cares, right?
Someone has to keep all the integrated schools' staff in job, including instructors.

How much of that 'I'd rather spend double' money for 'zero to fATPL' training have you actually earned yourself? Did you read updated information on huge unsecured loans? None now, really. Are your daddies stupid enough to secure their house against secured one??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Not sure I ever coined the phrase 'headless lemmings' but I'm noting it down for future use.. ;)


In the boom times an Integrated course can be a worthwhile spend. We're in a big bad-ass bust right now and for the foreseeable future. Despite this, and proving the total pissing-in-the-wind nature of this forum the Integrated schools are full, are not cutting prices and have a half decent waiting list. All of them.

The swimming pool is full of slurry but still they're eagerly pulling on their trunks and queuing to climb the diving board ladder...

It beats me.:{

[Philpaz]

Ah, I was once a starry eyed wannabe (still a wannabe, just minus the stars) and was debating the cost/chance of employment between Int and Mod, I chose MOD, earn while you learn being the reason. I was an early supporter of the WWW theory and yet still I thought that I'd beat the slump and come up trumps and be sat in the 75 taking off from LBIA. Then XL went bump and being close friends with many of the unfortunates forced me to have a strong sniff of the morning brew.
I am 32 this year and will more than likely be closer to 35 before things are anywhere near being good for pilot recruitment, I'll never be able to earn as a pilot what I earn as an IT engineer and so I find myself asking wether its worth the leap at all. As of the end of last year I put everything on hold and it remains so.
Anyway, thread creep.

In my oppinion its all about what your after. Right now it makes little difference to your prospects of employment either way so you have to take other factors in to consideration. Money is no object to some, budgets are the defining factor to others, some people lack the motivation to self structure their training or lack the discipline to distance learn, Some may like the idea of hour building while travelling, some may want/need to remain close to home for work/family.

There are many champions of both approaches but the reality is that you have to take a long look at yourself, take all factors in to consideration (discipline, motivation, budget, circumstances) and make the decision as only YOU can. And if your not able to then perhaps it was never meant to be in the first place as even me at lowly PPL can tell you that decision making is perhaps one of the greatest qualities you'll need as a pilot.

Ho Hum.

P.s Cheers WWW and all the others that warned us of the storm on the horizon, shame your not as up on volcanology, could've made a mint at the bookies.

[fabbe92]

Wen can we expect to see everything turning, anyway? When are the airlines gonna start hiiring again like they did before the downturn? 2 years, 3? 4? Because this is is important to know when you make the Integrated vs Modular decision.

[redsnail]

If we knew that then we'd make a killing on recruitment etc.

There has been talk of the airlines beginning to recruit experienced crews in 2011. However, as for the overall "boom times" for all? Our company is considering 2013 as the earliest time.

[Philpaz]

Well isn't that the million dollar question. Icelandic ash can't be helping.

[fabbe92]

So one should still go modular if starting during autumn, 2011?

[GearDownFlaps]

fabbe you aint getting recruited no how mod or int

[fabbe92]

Maybe schools like EFT in Florida is the way to go nowdays. They are fairly cheap and they give you the chance to work as an instructor so when you leave them, you have around 1500 hours. That should put you in a better position to apply for a job, than the 250hr guys.

[TL638]

Thanks for the words of wisdom. Apologies if I offended anyone by calling you 'Boys' just a term I use to try and make myself feel younger! Nearing 25 now and the grey hairs may just be starting to get to me.

It would really help us wannabes if there were some hard facts about the pilot job market - for example....


How many unemployed pilots (ratings current etc and ready to fly) are there in the uk at present?

How many retirements will there be over the next few years?

How many student pilots are due to graduate over the next few years?

What percentage of new FO jobs have been given to MOD students vs INT students? Actual numbers would help here too.

Can anyone help with this info as it would help to make an informed decision.

To answer Martinch's question regarding my statement of paying double etc. I have worked to save approx 30% of the cost of an integrated course and will use this saving as a contingency to suppliment my repayments after I have completed the course. Hopefully with the investments I have made with some of this saving I should have a few years of repayments under my belt so I don't need to panic if I dont find a job straight away. I would'nt say my father is stupid (you may do?) but yes the aim is to take out a securred loan.

If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!

[UAV689]

If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!

And where do they base this from? The so called retirement bubble that has been thrown about for the last 10 years or so?
Where is the growth in UK going to come from? certainly not Ryan and easy, I believe they have both made their future plans known, and after the current deliveries have been made thats it. I think the current boom will never be repeated, perhaps in the sand pit or far east, but certainly not in UK.

[Sporky]

Where to start! If someone asked me on my opinion this is it. Modular. :ok:

Pre 2007 I would have said integrated. However, things have changed. I was very close to going integrated but chose modular and it has been the best decision I ever made. I trained at the top schools at some point and came out spending £40k for 270 hours.
After finishing recently I now have the same piece of paper as someone on an integrated course but half the debt and not crippled by the interest payments.

The good thing about the integrated course is that if there are jobs then you are going to be fine, but now, very few jobs, you join everybody else in the pool and fight it out. I suspect that this will be the case for the sometime.

If you can genuinely afford £115k (including a type rating), and I mean GENUINELY (not just being accepted for a loan) go integrated. If not modular is the route to go by some distance regarding price.

(Sorry if the answer is slightly disjointed it is very difficult to summarise this subject I could write pages and pages on the modular integrated issue pro and con for either).

[Pilot Positive]

TL 638,

Whilst your efforts to appraise the industry are applauded you need to take into account your circumtances/goals and the prospects of the industry...which at the moment are quite bleak. I would resist the temption to over analyse and to make a decision based on risk v return at this moment in time.

If you want hard facts such as those you've asked for, which may require investment of research (afterall aviation is an industry), then perhaps your best bet is to speak with either the CAA, IPA, BALPA or a leading industry player such as BA (possibly all!) who may have conducted an in-depth study on pilot recruitment and employment.

However, if you want to enter the industry, start by investing your time now by doing PPL/NPPL/Glider flying and that way you'll at least get some sort of flying experience and will allow you to see a little bit of the industry from within. As things start to improve your investment of time will start to pay off and you can then make a more informed and balanced decision on which route to take. :ok:

[G SXTY]

If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!

Complete and utter rubbish I'm afraid. The flight training industry has been selling the prospect of a 'pilot shortage' for as long as they've been training pilots. I started to seriously consider a flying career back in the late 1990s, and the schools were saying exactly the same thing then. The fact that wannabes want to hear it doesn't make it true. To add to the reality check, count the number of FTO adverts in the back of any flying magazine, then consider the advertising revenue they bring in, then consider whether the magazine might just have a vested interest in perpetuating this myth. When faced with an industry that knows you are itching to part with £60k+, and would love to get their hands on your money, it pays to treat their claims with extreme cynicism.

To get definitive answers to your other questions would require lots of data from the CAA and individual airlines - which you'll never get - but I'll try and give you my thoughts, from the perspective of a UK airline pilot who is not trying to sell you anything:

How many unemployed pilots (ratings current etc and ready to fly) are there in the uk at present?
Very difficult to say with any precision, but probably somewhere between the high hundreds and a couple of thousand. In any case, the exact number is pretty academic – what matters is that there are lots of people chasing their first break in a market where first jobs are practically non-existant.

How many retirements will there be over the next few years?
Fewer than in the last few years. BA recently raised their retirement age from 55 to 60, and as the UK's single biggest employer of pilots, that on its own will have an effect. Long term, retirement age is only likely to increase further. Again, it's fairly academic, because you will always have more wannabes trying to enter the market than people retiring from it. As an example, my airline employs around 700 pilots, and I can think of 4 or 5 who have retired in the last few months. If we were accepting CVs, I can guarantee you we would get more that that number every day.

How many student pilots are due to graduate over the next few years?
Thousands. Far more than there will ever be jobs for. If you wanted to be really nerdy, you could look up how many light twins each of the commercial schools has, then, assuming that each aircraft operates say four student sorties per day, and each of those students takes around a month to complete the flying part of their IR, you could calculate a figure. It won't be pretty.

What percentage of new FO jobs have been given to MOD students vs INT students? Actual numbers would help here too.
As I've said, you're not going to get this, but here's a ballpark view of the UK's four biggest employers of pilots. BA, when they recruit low hours pilots, will only take integrated candidates, and even then it's only a handful every month (note that having Oxford on your CV is not a ticket into BA). Ryanair couldn't give a toss whether you were integrated or modular, as long as you can pass (and pay for) their type rating course. Easyjet have traditionally sourced their low-houred pilots from CTC, which is actually a modular course, albeit run on a full-time (aka integrated) basis. Given their new found enthusiasm for pay to fly, however, I wouldn't get too excited about your prospects with them. Flybe don't mind whether you're integrated or modular, and if my experience is anything to go by, the mix is roughly 50/50. That's the big four, who between them account for the great majority of low-houred airline opportunities. Personally, I don't think it makes a convincing case for integrated, but if you think it's worth spending double for a better chance of a job, then fill your boots.

As Pilot Positive says, all the analysis and number crunching is a little academic right now. There are virtually no jobs out there irrespective of your choice of school or training route, and that situation is unlikely to improve for at least the next couple of years. If you are passionate about flying (and why else would you want to be an airline pilot?) then get down to your local flying club and do some PPL training. It's all hours in the logbook, and at least you can be doing something constructive while waiting for the market to improve.

[Hezza]

Hi G SXTY,

Thanks for posting such an in depth reply. Just one query, from where did the information regarding BA only recruiting integrated students come from? I've heard it many times, but when I went up onto the flight deck of a BA flight last summer (pre take off) to chat with the pilots, neither thought it was correct... The FO had joined direct from CTC as a 200hr guy, which as you say is effectively a modular course.

[G SXTY]

I don't work for BA, so my information is third-hand, but as I understand it the reasons are historical. In the olden days before JAA, when the choice was CAP509 (what is now integrated) or the self-improver (modular) route, BA allegedly took on a few low-houred self-improvers, and weren't particularly impressed. Since then, all recruitment of inexperienced pilots has been via the 'approved' / CAP509 / integrated route. Presumably a candidate from CTC would be acceptable as they have passed an initial selection and would come with a verifiable training history (the CTC course being integrated in all but name).

Note that once you have enough commercial experience to apply to BA as a direct entry (experienced) pilot, they are as disinterested as everyone else as to how and where you got your licence.

[flyhelico]

BA? this company is a joke and you should nt join a school who send pilots to BA.
when you look at the strikes(pretty much every month now), the management who don't care except how much is on their fat bank account, I can not trust who is in charge of these planes.it' s all corrupt from the top to the the bottom!.

BA is already dead, in a few months they will close their doors.
I think it' s going to be the end for Oxford Aviation and the end of many integrated schools

who cares?, some other airlines will take the lines, and student will go somewhere else.
plenty of good schools where you save lot of bucks!.

[fabbe92]

Well if I hade the oppurtunity to work for BA, I would go there directly. They have problems right now, but so does all the other carriers as well. Let´s face it, BA is the ultimate career goal for many and they are among the best airline pilots in the world, together with Lufthansa and others, if you look at their assesement, training and standards.

[aanthonisz]

Im looking at doing my CPL in Oz next year. Im 29 and looking for the best, most cost effective way of obtaining my cpl, with a frozen Atpl, can anyone give me some guidance on this? Obviously time frame is a factor due to my age, however still want to get the best training possible. Prices seem to fluctuate quite dramatically it seems, Modular or intergrated??? whats the difference from those of you who have taken the different paths. Thanks in advance

[May fly]

Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.

[FL370 Officeboy]

All these replies about how much cheaper it is are pretty academic as there is one rather important issue:

THERE ARE NO JOBS!!!

(**I don't count paying Easyjet £34,000 for the honour of flying their passengers about for a bit whilst the next sap waits in the wings for their turn as a 'job'**)

This thread was started on the 26th January of this year. So, what is the OP's current employment status? Of the people joining the love-in along the way...what is your employment status? I am referring more specifically to recent graduates of the money saving modular courses (i.e. G-SXTY etc telling us about their success in 2008 is pretty irrelevant as the jobs market is a totally different place now).

You would have to be a nutter to go and spent any amount on an ATPL with no job at the end at this moment in time (£50,000 is hardly loose change). The only way I could envisage advising someone to start training is if they were accepted onto a tagged or part sponsored scheme. The only company I know of doing this at the moment is flybe. The pick is the part sponsored Cabair scheme run annually, with the FTE MPL and Waterford schemes thrown in there too. The airline makes a contribution to your training here and hence has an interest in employing you at the end. Before anyone moans about the flybe pay/bond...you'd be £34,000 better off straight away due to not having a super dooper TR to pay for!

Traditionally, low hours recruits have recently finished their training and are fresh or still in the training mentality. Training now then hoping to potter around for a bit until the upturn happens isn't a great policy, no matter how much cheaper it is. When airlines start recruiting it will be the lucky people popping out of the training system at that time..and most probably from the airlines' favoured schools. Right place, right time etc etc.

Just because WWW cites one example and using their position as a moderator tp make it a sticky just to back up their personal opinion does not make it fact, gospel or more valid...especially when it is pretty irrelvant when considered in the big context which is GETTING A JOB! After all, unless it ends up in employment/living the dream it is a wasted £50,000 doing a modular course too.

In summary, both a modular AND integrated course would be a waste of money if you didn't get a job at the end. So, at this moment in time stay away from training unless you have a job sorted...which in all likelihood means a tagged/part-sponsored integrated or MPL course.

[Pilot Positive]

I don't work for BA, so my information is third-hand, but as I understand it the reasons are historical.

Originally, in the early 70's, training was completed at Hamble where a selected number of cadets went through their zero-to-hero training program. Along the way of each program a good % of these cadets dropped out/failed to meet their required standards - which were high. So since this time an integrated student approach to co-pilot training has been inherent in their culture - only nowadays they have simply delegated this approach to a few selected schools. :cool:

Unfortunately, FL370 Officeboy's post contains grains of reality, especially for the UK, where regardless of the training route you take it simply is not a good time to be training. However, the gloss of the FTO's and the subtle suggestions that "there's light at the end of the tunnel", "some airlines are talking about pilot shortages in 2 years" and "by the time you finish there'll be jobs around" etc... are only ways of drawing new revenue into the industry. :=

Be warned, integrated FTOs have very well honed sales cultures and are probably quite happy to flout and breach consumer law including the law of misrepresentation in order get ya money. So plan carefully, invest for the long term and avoid "I want a job NOW" fast-tracking mentality as a great many of you will be very sorely dissappointed. :uhoh:

[G SXTY]

How long have I been saying there are no jobs out there?

How long have I been saying it's not going to improve for at least another couple of years?

How many times have I said that success in this game is all about timing?

:ugh:

I'm starting to feel like www.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Welcome to my world!

Daily PM's asking whether Oxford or Cabair or Boeing or Airbus rating. The phrase Wannabe Zombie Army was a considered one. They are relentless and unstoppable.

Well if I hade the oppurtunity to work for BA, I would go there directly. They have problems right now, but so does all the other carriers as well. Let´s face it, BA is the ultimate career goal for many and they are among the best airline pilots in the world, together with Lufthansa and others, if you look at their assesement, training and standards.

If your ultimate career goal is to wait decades for a command whilst working in an atmosphere of hostile industrial relations and be based in LHR LGW then maybe BA is for you. They are not the best airline pilots in the world. They're bog standard. Like me. Like the rest of the airline pilots out there. In BA, like every other airline, there are Piloting Gods, bloody idiots and inbetween a vast swathe of bog standard airline pilots doing their job and living their life. The assesement is a total lottery, the training is good but nothing exceptional and the standards are high - just like most places. I doubt any BA pilot would take offence or exception at those comments.



The bottom line of the substantive point of this thread is this. When times are booming it can be worth paying the Integrated premium because this can lead to direct entry to major airline right hand seats. When times are busting it can be worth saving money by going Modular because debt repayments are a ballache and training can be slowed/delayed/speeded up as required by economic developments and personal circumstance.

We're in a massive Bust. Go Modular. You muppets.


ps Flying magazines - and I've met a few of the Editors in my time - make ALL their profit on the advertisements in the back. Note that most of the larger and therefore expensive ones are from schools selling flight training. Have you ever heard the phrase 'never bite the hand that feeds you'? Well flying magazines stroke it, manicure it and paint its freakin' fingernails. Don't believe a word they say about pilot recruitment or employment. Not one word. Ever.

[May fly]

Sounds like a jungle out there! so there are no jobs going at the moment, a good time to get training then. is the outlook for recruitment still as depressing for someone to put together a modular program and aim to finish in two years time? not ignoring the lovely :ugh:icon but obviously want to find out as much as possible before making any decisions.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Not only are there no jobs at the moment (apart from £30k pay to fly loco deals) there will be fewer jobs as the economy takes a downturn and more airlines go bust or contract.


Sorry but the £2,000,000,000 Quantitative Easing money is spent, the Eurozone is about to enter a crisis big enough to cause its collapse, the UK housing market is still flat on its arse at 35,000 transaction per month despite having just has the peak of its year (Easter) and the "savage" public spending cuts and government job losses are increasingly just around the corner. So. The outlook for recruitment is still depressing. Ryanair is still the best deal out there to the general Wannabe. And that's for a job that you pay three times over the odds to get type rated for and which offers you NO guaranteed wage, base or continued position vs redundancy - you're a contract worker to be switched on, or off, as the accountants dictate.

Its a huge great big **** sandwich but the queue to take a bite extends down the street and past the chemists. Its quite amazing really.


Really. It is.

[IrishJason]

''Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.''

I did lad. I've done a lot of research on this place as its only across the road from me. All anyone is saying too me is stay away, the centre is nice, the promise is nice and the trainers are nice too but I have been told by people who went and trained in this too stay well clear

[nagsta]

If everything is "nice", why are they telling you to stay clear? Did these people you've spoken to finish their training recently or over a year ago or more?

[Pilot Positive]

Not only are there no jobs at the moment (apart from £30k pay to fly loco deals) there will be fewer jobs as the economy takes a downturn and more airlines go bust or contract.


After the election in the UK, the reality of how much trouble the economy is in will become a reality. And its in very very serious trouble indeed - even to the extent that the 3 major parties are skirting around the issue as they know it will drastically affect their ratings in the polls.

Yet still the naive and optimistic keep coming: As my Father use to say "If you cant be clever then learn the hard way."

[fabbe92]

Perhaps you should focus less on the UK and start looking abroad? The first thing we learn in Sweden is, if you want to be a pilot, then be prepared to move far, far away from home.

[Pilot Positive]

I would have to agree with you Fabbe92, however not all wannabees are as open minded a you would have hoped. See:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/412949-2011-recruitment.html

However, I would also point out and perhaps reiterate WWW's post that the recession is a world recession and that, although, European economies are ahead of the UK in their economic cycle and have provided a little room for optimism the very recent events in Greece are likely to slow it all down rather dramatically....

[fabbe92]

Yes I know that it doesn´t look good anywhere at the moment, but if one tends to look at the UK or any other country specificly, the chances of getting a job are slim even during boom times.
And then I´m not talking about jet jobs. Any flying job in the world where you are safe and earn a decent living, is a good job.

[Pilot Positive]

but if one tends to look at the UK or any other country specificly, the chances of getting a job are slim even during boom times.

Er...possibly not. Given that the UK is well within the the top 10 world economies I would say that its a good place to start looking during a boom time.

Fabbe92 we're straying off the thread track here mate - perhaps check out the thread http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/412949-2011-recruitment.html ? :ok:

[IrishJason]

''If everything is "nice", why are they telling you to stay clear? Did these people you've spoken to finish their training recently or over a year ago or more?''

It appears too be nice until you learn that all they want is your money. I have been told and have talked too ex students who finished both last year and 4 years ago. and both are the same. they are now in over 90k of debt and still have no job. now i cant fully comment as i dont have first hand experence with doing their course just going on these people. general rule is if you have that cash + another 30k for a tr ( ryanair ) then go ahead. Pilot Training Course Waterford PTC Ireland Diary of a PTC Student (http://www.pilotcourseireland.com/) this fella seemed too enjoy it but he is as far as im aware not a pilot at the min

[dt1tg]

The integrated course is easier to pass through.
Modular is like learning to fly using a ski instructor.
It takes a lot of independent study and research...

[Pilot Positive]

The integrated course is easier to pass through.
Modular is like learning to fly using a ski instructor.
It takes a lot of independent study and research...


Yes - simply hours and hours and you only end up saving £30k. :ugh: Methinks I smell a course recruiter.... :hmm:

[Immortal]

I'm currently doing modular training and I can finance that through my job. It is all based on the thought that I can speed it up or slow it down whenever I want. At this point I'm still working on my PPL and I bought a share in a Diamond Katana, so hour building will be cheap for me.

A friend of mine is almost done with his integrated course and he is scared as hell. He has a dept of almost 140k (euro) and he is madly searching for possibility's to get a loan for another 30k for a TR. Its just insane.

When I am finished with my training in a year or 2-3 I will have no debt at all and it will cost me 1/3 of what my friend payed for his licence (exactly the same!!!!). I will be able to sleep at night and if there ever rises an opportunity to get a job I will have no problems at all to get a loan for an TR or if the market is still **** I can get a FI rating or just have fun flying the Katana around Europe and keep my current job.


Something about penny wise, pound...



ps: as you can see I am a long time reader, but this was my first post

[Poeli]

whoa! You are exactly doing what I want to do, though I'm still in college (graduate next year:cool:)

[flyhelico]

plenty of job...

ratio 1/1000 (1 job/1000 pilots)

you don't believe? no problems, it s you money...I don't care if you don't belive me. I have no debts...

[A320rider]

bye bye buddy, you have been baned.

shame on us, everything you said is right.


A friend of mine is almost done with his integrated course and he is scared as hell. He has a dept of almost 140k (euro) and he is madly searching for possibility's to get a loan for another 30k for a TR. Its just insane.


tell him:if you can not take care of your money, how can you fly a jet??

[Alex Whittingham]

The problem is that its all about timing, and a little about where you train. To deal with the last point first, any integrated FTO that has a real link to a recruiting airline is going to place you more quickly that if you work on your own, but that advantage does have to be tempered against the significant extra cost of integrated training and moderated with the knowledge that, in good times, that advantage is not great.

There are few real links between UK based FTOs and airlines, and many of them such as the flybe scheme only deal in small numbers. The only significant one that I know of is the link between CTC and Easyjet and, say what you like about contract terms, CTC have consistently placed large numbers of cadets with the airline throughout this recession.

We're at an interesting point now where recruiting is starting to take off, although it is not much mentioned on PPruNe. As an example, Emirates have stated they need 250 pilots this year and 500 next year. BA have also expressed a need for several hundred pilots. Easyjet are currently pretty short of crews because they have restricted recruiting in the recession, they are even planning to wet lease aircraft in this summer. Their HR dept has allegedly received 300 odd reference requests from Emirates in the last couple of months, mostly relating to applications from Easy senior FOs.

So what's going to happen here? Unless there's a double dip recession the Easy pilots that have been messed around by HR, including those on the poor contracts that aren't bonded, are going to leg it to the likes of Emirates and BA and therefore Easy are going to find themselves in a hole by the late summer. They will no longer be able to recruit on the current ridiculous contract terms and concepts like 'flexi-crew' are going to disappear very quickly. CTC are well placed as their 'preferred supplier' but may be unable to satisfy the demand and Easy will probably also take candidates from other FTOs, both integrated and modular.

So yes, I think that integrated with CTC may be a good choice right now, although I'd find it hard to justify an integrated course elsewhere. Clearly starting an integrated course two years ago was a bad decision and yes, the posters on PPRuNe did say so at the time. The big advantage of modular training, apart from the overall cost, is that you can stay working while you train. The cash disappears very quickly when you give up work.

As a side-note, I met an Easyjet captain last week that was one of the first JAR candidates at Cabair. He walked straight into a job with Go, then of course Go was taken over by Easy, and he made command in four years.

Timing.

I will now stand back and wait for WWW's opinion!

[Pilot Positive]

As an example, Emirates have stated they need 250 pilots this year and 500 next year. BA have also expressed a need for several hundred pilots.

We are not aware of attrition rates at Emirates and neither are we aware of whether those numbers represent firm commitment or speculative projections based on current demand.

The UK/European economy is far from out of the woods and the financial pundits have already got their money on a double dip recession. Sorry if it sounds glass half full but that is likely to be the reality. I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong but I have that nagging feeling...

Your arguement is well formulated Alex but lets keep it simple: Undertaking an Integrated course during a recession is very risky. Doing a modular course during a recession is a better managed risk but still a risk.

The third option? Wait 8 - 12 months to see how the industry has progressed and then make a decision. :cool:

[Alex Whittingham]

Hi PP, all good points. Recruiting announcements are always slightly speculative and much of my post is based on rumour. The emirates announcement was in Flight International (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/03/342734/emirates-to-recruit-700-pilots-in-next-18-months.html), the Easyjet info was from airline jungle drums.

We?

[A320rider]

The third option? Wait 8 - 12 months to see how the industry has progressed and then make a decision

Yes I love that!
this is what I say to all my friends who went for the P2F.
Just look for the trend, better or worse in 6 months.

if Alex is right, in 6- 12 months, airlines will start to offer type ratings with "bonding contract", and it 's going to be the end of these P2F SCAMS and **** CTC flexy screw programs ...

so guys, wait and see!

[Alex Whittingham]

Easyjet starting to wriggle EZY stoops to new lows (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/419985-ezy-stoops-new-lows.html), trying to offer flexicrew permanent contracts at low salaries.

[bobbydazzler84]

Hello all,

Im 26 years old, and have recently resigned from a Headhunting Job in the City. I have harboured and interest in flying from a young age, and went gliding, did ATC etc...

Im considering getting becoming an airline pilot, I understand that I can get a loan, but fortunately I have saved up some cash which should cover the cost of training. However, I have heard heard the intergrated vs modular debate and am left a bit torn.

A school friend of mine went to CTC and is now at easy jet, he reckons that maybe modular is cheaper, but he thinks that you dont need the added stress of watching you bank balance ebb away when you are taking exams - requiring more landings etc..

Attractions of integration:

Learing alongside other people
support at hand
Campus life - Accom/Gym/stufy facilities etc
opportunity to fly abroad
Brand of some sort on your CV (worth anything?)
Completion - 16 months?
Multi Crew - type training included?Modular

Faster completion?
Cheaper
???I understand that CTC/OAA etc are business and they must make money. However are they able to add cost savings by running courses for large numbers of people at one place.

So anyone with who has been there and don that, I would be very grateful to hear from you.

[INNflight]

the MAIN difference, imho which no one hardly ever mentions:

Modular means: You have to organize yourself and your training. Need to call instructors, organize your medical appointment yourself, pick the FTO for your PPL yourself, then think...maybe there's a better organisation for multi engine, enquire,............................, and so on.

It's work, active work. You have to look out for your ducks to keep them in a row. When will your medical lapse. How many more landings do you need, etc.

Integrated is largely (and I don't mean that disrespective):

Someone takes you by the hand, maybe gives you a uniform to train in, and literally walks you through the entire training until you're done. They'll make sure you do everything you need to do, have everything you need to have, make sure you know what's needed. It's less do it yourself and less planning for a higher price.

I am not endorsing either model, but (and I went modular...) in the end of the day, think about it like this:

Would you REALLY (I mean...R E A L L Y!?!) spend 100,000 (that's One Hundred Thousand) to get a license you can get for 50,000?!?!?!?

Don't get me wrong, maybe the integrated guy gets a job before I do...but 50,000 excess in cash he doesn't have is plenty to live on until you find a job.

[INNflight]

just to add something to your points mentioned (I guess I am endorsing modular after all :E):

You can go fly abroad as much as you can as an integrated student. Again, more organizing needs to be done by yourself but you can.

I agree you'll miss out on the campus life, and you'll mostly study on your own, especially should you take a distance-learning GS course. It'll suck.

Integrated is not really faster either. If you have the money, and WANT to get it done ASAP, you can complete your courses modular in roughly the same time. The bonus is, that if you DON'T want to continue at that pace, for whatever reason, you can just stop, or fly just a few hours each month until you're ready to go again. Not really possible with integrated. Once you're in, you'll roughly know when you'll be out. Crap economy or not.

In the end of the day, think whether a name such as Oxford, Bristol or whatever is worth twice the price tag.

It's like paying $200,000 for a $100,000 Porsche because a Formula One driver will teach you how to drive it instead of a, say WRC driver ;)

[bobbydazzler84]

Thanks for that,
Do integrated courses come at a discount if you already have a PPL? Im assuming there is one part of the course that you wont need to study ande examine for?

[119.35]

No, not that I know of? In fact, already having a PPL will actually pre-clude you from most integrated schools as they want to mould you from zero to hero.

One of the obvious advantages of modular are that you can also work whilst training (have noted that you have resigned). Realistically you can work whilst doing your PPL, ATPL Theory and Hour Building. Most people generally go full time for their ME/CPL/IR, but it is not unheard of to do the lot part time.

Working at the same time can add issues, but you can also save a lot of cash and it's all about the bottom line figure that your bank balance tells you it cost to get your fATPL and not c £40k, £50k etc for a course. Modular also allows you to train as quickly or slowly as you like which has been invaluable for anyone starting in the past 2 years.

If you do a search there are several mod v int threads and make sure you read the 'CTC' thread if you haven't already as anyone finishing during the past year or so is probably is still swimming in the hold pool (but of course things can change in the next 2 yrs).

There is no right or wrong answer, it's horses for courses. It really is up to you how much the integrated style of training is worth and your own personal circumstances?

PS - just seen your comment about 'is type training included?' No, I believe CTC now charge c £25k for a Type Rating?

[pitot_noob]

Would you REALLY (I mean...R E A L L Y!?!) spend 100,000 (that's One Hundred Thousand) to get a license you can get for 50,000?!?!?!?

The very good int. school I went to didn't charge me 100k , so not quite sure if that is a fair comment!

[Artie Fufkin]

Bobbydazzler (love the name btw), be careful about "helpful advise" on here.

Integrated courses do not cost 50k more than modular. They are more expensive, but once everything is added up, most modular students I met admitted to spending nearly as much as me (I did integrated). The premium (again, only according to the mods I met) around 5 years ago was 5 or 6k. Significant, but not as bad as some would have you beleive.

No integrated course will bar you for having a PPL. 119.35's comments suggesting you might probably go back to the days when aairline cadet schemes precluded people with over 65 hours from applying. But nowadays you are self sponsored so this doesn't apply. And you certainly used to be able to get a discount off course fees for already having a PPL. Guys on my course who had PPLs got 20 hours off the minimum flight hours, which certainly adds up.

[INNflight]

Integrated courses dont usually have a 100k price tag, that's true, however should you need to get a loan for - say 60-70k (almost impossible nowadays anyway) - you'll easily pass 100k until you've paid it back. Compared to working and paying as you go alongside your job, yes, that's twice the price more or less¨.

Again, I'm not trying to argue about which is better, I am sincerely happy for anyone who found integrated is the right way, and hope anyone finds a job asap, no matter whether modular or integrated.

In the end we're all doing it for the same goal, and most make it, just via different routes. Go find out which is the best for you, but don't just get hypnotized by a shiny brochure saying you'll get a job at the end of the course. Because you just won't.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Modular can be done, in the UK, at good schools for £48,000 and in 12 months if you are in a hurry for some bizzare and misguided reason.

Not many Integrated courses that can be done for under £62k.


You probably live within an hours distance of a perfectly good flying school who can do you a CPL/IR. Home study and brush up course for the ATPL's only requires about 4 weeks away from home if you don't happen to live within commute of a Groundschool.


Its a NO BRAINER at the moment to go Modular. Has been for 3 years.

[Artie Fufkin]

Completely agree modular represents the best way forward for most people at the moment. If I was training now, its what I'd be doing. It just frustrates me when disinformation is spread about what amounted to a huge decision for all of us.

In terms of factoring cost, it is always best to focus on what is likely, rather than on what is possible.

Does the 12 month, 48k modular course include PPL & hour building? The 14 month integrated course was pretty "action packed" and involved 80 less flight hours than modular.

[UAV689]

I have met someone that has gone modular, got a TR, and done the evil eagle jet in the orient to get 1000hrs 737 all in 90k, probably the price of an integrated school course.

It looks like PTF is here for the time being, so consider that on top of the 80 odd k that you will have to fork out to integrated school you are likely to have to buy a TR, maybe hours etc, buget for that as well.

Go modular, it is such a no brainer, and more fun!

PS - in no way do I advocate the PTF, Eagle jet et al.

[Artie Fufkin]

I really genuinely don't want to appear confrontational on this one, but these post lie at the crux of the modular myth; "I know someone who says"... ie allegedly, and totally unquantifiable. When you sit down and take these people to task, the story usually changes. I remember being on the flight deck once where a captain was openly laughing at how much extra I had paid than him. We were on a night flight back from Spain, so had the time to examine it in detail. We worked out I was financially better off than him, even with me integrated and him modular and nearly 10 years before me!

And the "if you go integrated, factor in loan interest" argument- what about considering the salary differential between an FO position versus the "flippin' burgers" job that most hold down during modular traning. How much do FIs or dispatchers earn? Absolutley no direpect to either, I know great guys in both roles, but relative to a FO they earn peanuts. Maybe to the tune of 18K net per year (1.5k per month). Over 3 or 4 years that really adds up.

[UAV689]

Sorry artie, have to disagree on that point. The best part about modular is that you can have a back up career, something to fall back on when a class one is lost, when the next down turn comes etc. I don't flip burgers and earn about 50k a year, yes I work hard, but whilst I am training i actually earn more than I will for my first fo job, something I find quite hard to justify at times!!

[Artie Fufkin]

UAV689 - its a fair point. Its clearly working well for you, and good luck to you. :ok:

I only intend to add a degree of balance to the mod vs int argument. There are people reading this thread who will be planning their training and shouldn't have statements like "integrated is 50K more" left unchallenged.

[Pelikanpete]

Artie, you don't need to make that argument because the integrated flight schools already lay on the marketing twaddle thick enough. This thread is to help those who might otherwise fall for it.

Also, if your argument is based on the claim that integrated students get jobs as FOs but modular guys have to wait years flipping burgers, then your contribution is no better than the schools marketing nonsense because that is not even close to the truth.

If you give up work completely and do a modular course full time at a reputable flight school you will in all likelihood probably save about £30 - 40K (or more if you account for interest over the period of any loans). You will of course miss out on any help that you might have received as an integrated student in finding a job but for the last 2 years that help has been mostly worthless anyway. Even before at the best of times that help only benefited a few - for the majority it is simply not worth the extra cost.

[Artie Fufkin]

Pelikanpete, you can read whatever misinterpretations of my posts you like, but I all I was doing was challenging the utter rubbish that integrated courses cost 50K more than modular, because they don't.

[Poeli]

Maybe not all of them, but certainly a lot!
If you take an example for the Netherlands: A mate of mine has debts of 120k € for his flight training in the KLS. Don't tell me you can't do modular flight training with a typerating for 70-80k €

[crazydud2000]

modular or integrated, there are no job...so go for the cheapest.
something is wrong in his head, when a guy go for integrated , pay a fortune plus airbus time, and finishes with no money!and no house on his head and parents have to go back to work.
that's totally insane!

[Kaartikkeyyan]

if there is a captain out there please help me.... i really need to ask u something

[Zizou001]

Hello there.


Ive spent two years trying to convince my parents that i want to be a pilot now that they have agreed.
I need some help.
I want to know what is the best way to go for a pilot training.
I have no flying experience whatsoever.
I have been looking for sponsorships from airlines. but havent found anything yet


CTC wings/OAA are just too expensive for me

CTC Wings is about £70 K (excluding accomodation etc..)

OAA is about £80 K

Also i need to find a way to get the money for the course as i dont have a property.

can anyone help me out. this is like a turning point in my life if nothing happens now then i dont know if ill ever get a chance again.

[Andy98]

Look I'm not a captain but a cadet ship from an airline can be a good path to follow. Also whats your age range because the best path to follow will change. If your over 24 its to late to get a cadetship in most cases.

[BoeingDreamer]

Zizou001 - some of the those 2 years you should have spent working to save money + also considering the modular route, which will save you half the total cost of CTC or OAA.

The word is research, and then ask!

[Aitch812]

Good morning everyone,

Just joined the site as a prospective pilot/wannabe. I was seriously considering an integrated course but having read a lot of the threads on this chat modular definitely seems the way ahead. The cost is obviously drastically lower than an integrated course and it seems the only benefit from taking that route is that they put you in touch with airlines at the end of it. 30 grand seems a high price to pay for a job interview!! I just have a couple of questions and if anyone can answer them I'd be grateful.

1. If I was to go down the modular route is it worth funding my own type rating on, say, a 737 and then approaching an airline?

2. Another problem I have noticed is the difficulty getting a job due to lack of hours...is it worth spending the extra money and time hours building and approaching an airline with 300 or 400 hours under my belt?

If these questions are blatantly obvious to some, forgive the naivety, I am just trying to find out how to best plan to get ahead once I start down this road. Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give.

[G-FATTY]

Aitch812 I totally agree with you.

At this moment in time atleast I can not see that paying the extra hard earned/borrowed money for intergrated training seems to out weigh going modular.

For the last couple of years hardly anyone has been taking on 200 hour pilots except the obvious P2F airline/s.
Its looking like pilots are beginning to move around to different airlines as the middle east airlines are expanding and stealing the more experienced pilots in the UK.
If this keeps continuing then I actually think that intergrated students will start to see more positions becoming available.

But at this moment I still belive modular is the way to go - you could even pay 1/2 of your savings by going modular to an airlines inside man/woman to get you your first job with an airline. You would save £15,000 on your figure saving of £30,000!

With regard to your second question, I do not think it is worth spending thousands more on a couple of hundred hours in a C152 or alike. It would probably be spent flying around the local area mainly and would not be beneficial to an airline.
If you have a few extra thousand to spend after your training, I would say go for an instructors rating instead. At least you get another qualification you could use with your CPL and you could start building your hours up whilst being paid a few quid for them.

These are just my opinions from going through my training last year.

I wish you all the best for your future.

[Bealzebub]

There is nothing wrong with either an integrated route to training or a modular route to training. In most cases the latter should prove cheaper as a route to licence aquisition because it can be done in broken stages and with the flexibility and pace that suits the student. In addition the modular route allows the applicant to pick and choose where they want to purchase the modular components. By and large the applicant has control over the training suppliers and their own progression.

With integrated training in the better recognised schools, there is a seamless continuation of training over a period of 15-22 months that involves an approved and recognised syllabus that in some cases uses teaching methods and operations that merge with those to be found in airline operations. This is something that many airline companies find particularly desirable in cadet pilots. They (the airlines) understand the syllabus and find it relatively easy to integrate cadets from these schools into their own training and operating regime. This is the reason that many of the airlines with low hour cadet schemes, affiliate themselves to one designated training provider and usually have little or no interest in applicants whose training background is undefined, patchy, incomplete, and not easily verifiable within their own requirements.

To understand this better, you need to take a journey back in history.

Airlines always sought the best applicants for their First Officer positions. The source of this supply was often a combination of ex- (and very well selected and trained) military pilots. In addition there were experienced general / commercial aviation pilots who had worked their own way up through the system. That system comprised pilots from approved courses and what were termed "self improvers". Sometimes airlines would approach the better and recognised training schools with a view to recruiting a limited number of direct entry "apprenticeships." However the majority of applicants would present with a few thousand hours aquired through aerial work (instructing, glider towing, photography, parachute dropping, banner towing etc.) Then on through air taxi work, or small turboprop operations.

Airlines never had a need or particular want for low houred inexperienced applicants. That was reflected in the standards they set for applicants and the remuneration they offered to successful applicants. Apart from a few lucky individuals, the competition took place between self improvers who had worked their way through the system to eventually arrive at this plateau.

So what changed?

Well quite a few things did over the next 10 years. Firstly legislative harmonisation meant that individuals who (in the UK) could instruct on a PPL with 150 hours experience and requisite ratings, could no longer do that. They now needed a commercial pilots licence, much in line with the requirements of other countries. In the USA the commercial "ticket" had never been viewed as an airline qualification. That requirement was (in it's most basic form) the ATP. However unlike the UK, the commercial could be aquired with just a couple of hundred hours rather than the 700+ hours required in the UK. In other words the US "commercial" licence was in essence an "aerial work" licence, and the experience levels reflected that. In the UK the commercial licence had a higher base hour requirement (save for a very limited number of approved training schools) and was indeed regarded more as a basic airline requirement.

The legislative changes however brought the UK system more into line with that in the USA and the rest of the world. In other words an ATPL with 1500 hours as a base requirement would likely reflect the normal basic and minimal entry requirement for most companies. The CPL would become the "aerial work" licence required for such jobs as "flight instructing" and the like.

There seems to be a problem of perception, in that many of these new 250 hour pilots see themselves as prime recruitment material for airlines, when that has never been the case.

What has happened in the last ten to 15 years is that a growing number of companies have expanded their recruitment portfolios to take on more cadet entry pilots. There is a cost advantage in doing this as the remuneration offered to these applicants is significantly reduced in the early years. These schemes are nearly all tied to a handful of integrated training providers, with the airlines themselves providing most of the "type" related training. The airlines are provided with significant benefits and safeguards with these schemes. In some cases applicants transfer sizeable bonds that are repaid to the recruit over a period of years. Applicants may be required to pay for part or all of their type training. The airline will have knowledge of the applicants training backround, profile and assesments.

Very few of these schemes are offered to low hour modular candidates The few that are, tend to be of the pay as you go variety, where the applicant assumes full risk for every aspect of their progression, and in the very few cases where employment may be offered, it is of the "self employed" variety with little or no security of tenure and none of the normal employee benefits.

Airlines seeking good First Officer material have a sizeable experience pool from which to draw from. They always have, and that is even more so in time of recession and consolidation, such as we are experiencing now. However a few companies have made cost cutting not only an art form, but in one or two cases pure entertainment. It doesn't take a leap of faith to understand that seeing profit in making passengers stand like half fallen dominoes, or paying to use the toilet, makes the prospect of doing away with one of the pilots completely, something to positively salivate at! Unfortunetaly (for them) that isn't a practical proposition. So they have utilised the next best course of action, that being to make the hopefuls pay to be there. As long as that situation persists it puts pressure on competitors to also reduce their similar costs. Ultimately the job ceases to be a job of employment, but simply a part of the customer experience.

The idea that most or indeed many 250 hour pilots are suitable material as airline first officers is simply a delusion. For those cadet programmes that introduce a limited number of applicants to a properly structured training programme, that is probably the best way to go. These programmes are expensive because they are through integrated schools with afflilations to the customer airline. For those individuals who cannot proceed through this route, modular is the other option. This route is likely to be much longer, difficult, and involve a greater degree of disappointment if airline flying is simply seen as the only end goal.

[Zizou001]

I was in college those two years doing my a levels and i was doing a part time job at the same time but i haven't got enough money to go on a modular course. as i had to pay my own rent and living cost.
I am looking for a full sposorship or even part sponsorship but from an airline.

And btw to know something you have to ask first why do u think this threads are made for? obviously to learn.

and what are some people doing here? helping

So cant i ask help and advice here???? Its better to ask someone who has experience isnt it?

[Zizou001]

HElllo Andy98

I am 19 i have been looking around most of them seem to be closed. Those that were open where in

- australia for jetstar
- Honkong Cathay Pacific

I live in the UK. I do not mind going abroad but i rather choose an airline with which i can spend the 7 years ( as i understand we have to stay with an airline for a certain amount of time if we enroll on their cadet scheme right?) i wanted to join etihad but the inernational program has been closed it is only open for UAE nationals

And i have just finished my A Levels so i need to find one if possible now or before october. or else i might have to join next year

DO you know any airline that offers cadet programs right now?

[Tim8416]

A lot of interesting facts or near facts on this post me thinks. My son and I have gone to Bristol Ground school and liked and the mighty Oxford and liked both, albiet that Oxford all seemed teeth. Have you done the day intro, all the girls and boys seemd to have had there teeth done as part of the cause, all big shinny smiles. :eek: :E

Anyway 45K is a lot better than £85k ++++ TRUST ME, it sounds a lot better, in these current times.

However looking at the theoretical facts, come 2014 more planes will be needed, China will have exploded and need more planes and planes means pilots.

This is about timing and whilst we did like Oxford, this old poor dog just felt well, couldn't this all be done for say £55K or £60k. The talk was very smooth and well polished and impressive but in the room was a potentile £4 million in fees. I do smooth and polished if I thought I could get that in a single day trust me.

Bristol Ground School was good with the approach of, we are here, we are the best and why the heck are you even thinking of anything else you muppet.

This is all about ' Give us a job' and as soon a possible. Some kids are lucky as parents have nearly got £85k or they have it or what ever. For others £45k is a massive amount to earn, to then pay and that makes for a highly dedicated student. Its your money and boy have you spilt blood to get it.

As a parent of one who wishes to fly :{ modular is a sound business decision but I just don't know. Its all about the timing and 2014/15 looks a dam site better than today. For anybody coming out in the next 18 months modular has it for me but in 3 years, it will be a close call, very close.

Its just those dam teeth and all the dental work Oxford that my son will need that I am worried about :E

[Aitch812]

Anyone out there know anything about Staplefords?

[G SXTY]

Fill your boots:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/381108-stapleford-flight-centre.html

[Aitch812]

Thanks G SXTY, just what I was looking for.

[Tim8416]

So we have the link to Stapleford School some loved it, some did not. Oxford is a mixed bag of pleasure and delight. So what is the experiance/feed back of Bristol Ground School please?

[Whirlygig]

You'd be hard pushed to find anyone who has anything bad to say against Bristol.

[Cows getting bigger]

Bristol GS? About the only bad thing I can recollect is that it isn't in Bristol. :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BGS and modular is a no brainer if you find £85k do be a bit daunting but possible.

The QE splurge is wearing off. Its back to recession and airline failures for the winter. Aer Arran are under 70 days Irish Ch11... The **** is about to re-hit the fan and the recent RYR/EZY/FLYBe hiring that has driven the market at the bottom end and the Dubai/Doha at the top end is going to stop.

Credit is also going only one way from here.


WWW

[Tim8416]

Hi Wee Welshman :)

Nice post but what does all the abriviations mean please.

Ch11, Aer Arran, Qe ect ect

Thank you.

[potkettleblack]

Quantitative easing - the splurging of your own cash by the treasury to make you feel all warm and cuddly.

Chapter 11 - protection from your creditors whilst you reorganise your business. In essence you go generally go back to them and offer them for example 30p in the quid for them to write off the debt and you start off again and hopefully don't make the same :mad: ups.

[Nearly There]

Ch11 = Chapter 11, bankruptcy in any other terms

Aer Arran = Irish Airline

QE = Quantitative easingQuantitative easing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing)

Ryr, Ezy, FLYbe = Ryanair, easyJet and Flybe airlines

[pilotmike]

what does all the abriviations mean please.

Ch11, Aer Arran, Qe ect ect

Ch11, Aer Arran, QE are all easy.

Please tell us, what does ect ect mean?:confused:

[BLC1]

Hi,

Im currently working as a Quantity Surveyor but have always wanted to become a Pilot.

I have been looking into the training over the past year having done a few lessons at local airfield over the past few years.

Is spending 100k worth it? (if i can get it) Will there be jobs out there in a years time? Have looked into to flights schools one in Ireland & one in the UK. Is there a cheaper way around this with the same qualifications at the end?

I would appreciate any reply,

Cheers.

[Pilot Positive]

Welcome to PPrune BLC1!

If you dont mind me asking - how old are you? The aviation game is, like anything, about timing. :}

What schools have you looked at in Ireland and UK?

[Shinty]

BLC1,

Did all my training in Ireland Modular at various training organisations. PM and I'll fill ya in on any questions you have.

[El_Presidente]

BGS and modular is a no brainer if you find £85k do be a bit daunting but possible.

The QE splurge is wearing off. Its back to recession and airline failures for the winter. Aer Arran are under 70 days Irish Ch11... The **** is about to re-hit the fan and the recent RYR/EZY/FLYBe hiring that has driven the market at the bottom end and the Dubai/Doha at the top end is going to stop.

Credit is also going only one way from here.


WWWWWW I've always loved reading your optimistic posts...nothing like the Welsh to pee on everyone's BBQ...(love you really)...

Yes QE is over; yes bankers are currently tighter than ducks arses, but...

Populations are expanding, cheap air travel will always be needed, globalisation will see to that, and pilots will retire or lose their med cat. Economies will grow, eventually, and credit will free up once banks have re-paid their debt to the treasury (circa 2012 for LloydsTSB)...I don't see a return to the days of fat cat wages and dolly birds hanging off your arms (well, maybe not yours, but mine perhaps)...but there will always be respectable gainful employment...airline success/failure is cyclical, and very sensitive to immediate economic fluctuations, and always will be.

I get slightly irked when I see chaps and chapesses streaming on about low wages and poor T&Cs/lifestyle etc...£1800 pm with a £75K debt IS restrictive...but whose fault is that. Grass is always greener...pardon the cliché ... amazes me that recruiters consider applications from such individuals – I thought mental agility was a key requirement of the role of PIC!?

I spent 12 yrs in the RAF, on the ground. One third of that was walking foot patrols in smelly places (no, not Slough) for about 25% less pay than one of my grow bag entombed colleagues...I now get spat on, verbally abused, beaten up and generally hated by most of the UK (no, I'm not an Ops Offr), in my current role as a Police Constable... all for the princely sum of £1700 take home pm.

Second career change of the decade, I'm soon to shout out to a well known local Flying Club to ask them to muddle me through a PPL. Yes, I was a geeky Air Cadet who got his glider wings at 16... considering I'm due to blow about £45k of the father in laws’ savings (realistic modular...cheers Col...) on buying my way into the blue yonder, I would happily take home £1800 pm on graduation ... and personally right now (yes my attitude will probably change) I couldn't give a Catholic Bishop whether I'm flying a sky van over Weston, or a 20 yr old 737 to and from Egypt...

Anyhow, much love...

:E

[Poeli]

Got a question for you guys... I'm currently in my last year of a bachelor in aviation engineering. I've got almost enough money to start my PPL (work more than a day for just one flying hour -_-) What would be the smartest move? Do a master (additional 2 years, but around 4-500€/month difference in wage) or start working and get additional licences? I wouldn't care that much not to get my other licences as long as I can fly with my PPL and already make some hours...

[Doug Down]

I also have a question for you guys . . earlier this year I completed a PPL at Bodmin and have around 140 hours to my name and was thinking of a winter project to keep the mind busy through the colder months and to keep me out of the pub also.

The ATPL theory looks like the way to go which should serve as a potential stepping stone to other things but as I am 43, I would like to know roughly what chances I have of getting jobs flying in wierd and wonderful places in small / medium / large prop jobs given that I am relatively free from all of the usual anchors that hold us back (wife / job / kids etc).

Not too fussed about a massive wage as have generated an alternative income so would be up for working for some funky outfit somewhere regardless.

Am I deluded that there may be jobs out there for balding blokes with a bit of life experience as opposed to young enthusiasic academic spottty blokes who can pass exams easily?

[spacemonkeys]

Hi folks, completely sold on the modular route and coming up on 35hrs ppl. Im looking into getting spoon fed for the atpl exams. Do any schools teach a full time course from the Bristol material? Failing that recommendations for best full time courses. Cheers

[GogglesOnTarget]

Fantastic post El Pres - my sentiments exactly:D

[Walk the line]

A certain school in Ireland now offering Integrated Training at £55,000 all in......I'll give you a clue. It begins with N and ends with C :O

[corsair]

Is there an F there too? Just saw that. It certainly rates alongside modular prices. They are only taking 8 trainees initially. I happen to know this was being worked on for quite some time. The first course will be something of a test case and may be a loss leader.

One thing to note, they are heavily connected to Ryanair. Instructors and family.

Interesting!

[Jerry Lee]

May I know the name of this school in Ireland?

[corsair]

plenty of clues N F C .ie

[May fly]

Has anyone been through the atpl ground school at BCFT? looking for first hand advice on approaching decision making time.

[VSCIST]

I have done all training apart from PPL through BCFT.

All Instructors are very helpful and friendly, If i had to do the training all over again i would go back to them straight away

The Instructors will help you through the ATPL's and nothing is too much trouble for them. If they need to stay after lessons to help you with a subject they will.

[CharlieFly]

I have been doing some research into integrated courses and obviously reading these threads.

What I cant understand is why everyone says integrated costs approx £100K

Figures I have been given from CABAIR, Oxford and CTC all fall into the £60K region for fAPTL

Please enlighten me ...

[v6g]

Fair question.

The £65,000 is what the integrated schools charge. But then their prospective employers, realizing they have an oversupply of eager young things who have already proven themselves to be naive and impressionable, then ask them to make an up-front investment in their airline under the guise of an over-priced "type rating" with line "training" of about £20,000+.

Add to that the unfortunate reality of needing to feed oneself for a year and to be housed, and the keen aviator is now in with close to £100,000.

But it doesn't stop there. Because typically the money is obtained via a loan from a bank, the total cost of the show is now about £140,000 (although to be fair I'm neglecting the effect of inflation over the amortization period in that back-of-the-envelope calculation).

That £140,000 will, of course, have to be paid back with after-tax money (at lets say a 35% marginal tax bracket), so the total earnings required to pay for that wonderful integrated course is likely to be around £220,000 (again inflation effects conveniently neglected).

It suits the airline (heavily indebted employees make great workers), it suits the school (BMW's aren't cheap you know), and it suits the bank (the dividends on my shares have to be paid somehow).

It's a beautiful business model.

[giggitygiggity]

With CTC, you heard wrong about the £60,000. For the wings course, £69,000 + NZ$17,400 for the foundation flying course (this is necessary and is not included in the course price), which already totals £80,000. Then probably £10,000 living expenses for 2 or so years whilst on the course. iCP (non wings cadets) will have to pay full price for a type rating at the end, wings cadets may be offered it free/cheaper. We're already at a minimum of £90,000, then there are other costs such as remedial training if necessary and also things like medical's and CPL issue etc, probably adds up to atleast another £5,000 after travel...

Extras, inflation, loan fees aside, the course WILL cost you £80,000.

[DavidFlies]

Just go Modular. Demand for Pilots is slowly increasing......................right? (This is a question, so don't slate me!)

[Bealzebub]

That rather depends on whether you are looking at the best chance of a fast track airline cadet programme or simply having a basic licence that lets you jump into a very deep and very crowded pool.

As an aerial work licence which gives you a shot at becoming a flight instructor (with the additional ratings applied) or an air taxi pilot, or whatever entry level jobs are available, then yes modular is cheaper, and would hopefully help you get a first step on the career ladder.

For cadet programmes with most airlines, you would need to embark an an affiliated integrated training course with whatever supplier that particular airline subscribed to.

It is rather like buying a bicycle or a motorbike. One is definetaly cheaper than the other and makes a lot of sense financially. They will both hopefully get you want to go. However one should get you there more quickly than the other in most cases.

There are no guarantees, just choices.

[BoeingDreamer]

Or, you could with the money you have saved doing modular, pay for TR, line training 500 hours, and still have spent less money, but improved your own chances of work.

[potkettleblack]

What respectable airline wants you with your 500 hours from eaglejet or any of the shower of sh*te production line training companies?

- BA - nope, experienced only should apply
- Aer Lingus - nope, either experienced or largely integrated only. You might be lucky if you are modular but you had better be a cut above the rest
- Midland - nope. Happy to train but not employ
- Easy - nope (CTC only please)
- Ryanair - nope, integrated low houred willing to self sponsor or high houred with lots of P1 time for a few LHS jobs only
- Charters - CTC would be a good start or perhaps a TP background at a push if your face fits

Go off and waste your money on 500 hours but expect to be flying for lord knows who in god knows where and hold on for the ride. Don't expect the above airlines to be interested when you have a few thousand hours and want to come back to Western Europe either.

[Axe2Grind]

Thanks for your input potkettleblack – your posts have been as positive as ever.
Do you linger around this forum because you want to extract vulnerabilities that'll make you feel more grateful in your current position? (Assuming you're cpt for a legacy (or such) with multi-thousand hours?)

Best.
Wannabe Zombie Army member ...please sir, can I fly some more.

[clanger32]

Axe2grind.
I don't know how long you've been on or around these forums, but there are certain people who are always going to be down, certain posters who will always just tell it "as it is" and certain that are always upbeat.

PKB has his (?) moments, but generally is in the middle group.
What he has said below is - probably - correct. Bealzebub is also - probably - correct. What they are both in essence saying is in response to the constant stream of "IcouldpayformytrainingmodularANDgetaTRandabillionhoursontype" brigade.

I'm ex-integrated. Modular is a VERY good choice, partic whilst uncertainty remains around hiring. However, DO be aware of what Bealzebub is saying. It depends on what you want - what PKB is telling you is yes, you could get the same qualification for less money and go and buy hours on type from line training companies BUT THESE HOURS ARE WORTH APPROX :mad: ALL. So many people - SO many - jump for the "it's a billion pounds cheaper than integrated" selling point of mod, only to find that actually, £50k for no job is still actually very painful. And using the money they saved, they've bought hours on type - which are STILL worth naff all.
I'm NOT saying Integrated will get you a job where mod won't. I do think it's slightly more likely to (but then, I would...) - the question for each person is how much is that perceived increase in opportunity worth.

Just as anyone who says "going integrated is the only way into XYZ airline" or "going integrated gives you a MUCH better chance of success" should be treated as somewhat dillusional, anyone that tells you "modular costs 28p and you can buy a concorde rating with a squillion hours for the cost of an integrated course and you'll be in a MUCH better position than those spoon fed Daddys' boys" should also be treated as bordering on insane. That is ALL I believe PKB was trying to say.

[KieranBal]

I can't help but be massively confused on these forums. One the one hand, you have a load of people saying that I would be foolish choosing to waste thousands on an integrated course which gets me nowhere and lands me in exactly the same situation as a modular. On the other hand, such as this thread, there are a number of people saying that going modular and spending the money you've saved on hours and a TR gives you sod all and that the TR and hours are all useless.
To quote clanger32 "you could get the same qualification for less money and go and buy hours on type from line training companies BUT THESE HOURS ARE WORTH APPROX :mad: ALL"

All I'm saying is that it seems to me, it's all down to when you get your licences/hours/TR, not where you got it from or how you got it? I have looked at both modular and integrated and both have their upsides and downsides.

From what I've read, and correct me if I'm wrong, if there are jobs going then the integrated people tend to get a slightly better chance than modular.
Financially, however, modular means you are able to stay in a job through your training and only spend £50,000 as a pose to £100,000.

I originally came to these forums looking to clarify questions such as modular vs integrated but I always end up walking away with the fog twice as thick as it was when I arrived. :(

[clanger32]

Kieran,
Apologies for any part I have played in confusing you further. To be honest though, you seem to have it pretty well worked out on your own.
I was integrated. Bear that in mind as you read this.

The problem is with Mod Vs Integrated, that everyone does (or perhaps that should be "should do") their own research. For those such as me who chose integrated, it's very difficult to accept that perhaps we've spent a lot more money for no apparent increase in chances. Likewise, those who chose Modular don't want to admit that they've spent £50k and got nothing; whereas "if they'd only gone integrated...."

Therefore all the claims get blown up into ridiculous statements on both sides. The modular people will always tell you that you can do a full modular course for 28p-and-a-pack-of-peanuts-which-is-so-much-cheaper-than-integrated-which-costs-at-least-a-kazillion-pounds.

The integrated mob will tell you that "modular-is-for-no-hopers-who-can't-get-on-an-integrated-course-and-will-never-ever-be-able-to-fly-for-xyz airlines-because-they-only-take-integrated".

The truth is more likely that Modular will cost around £10-15k cheaper than an integrated course (not the £30-50k cheaper some will have you believe). The truth is more likely that an integrated course may give you a slight edge in a buoyant market.

The truth is, as you say yourself it's more about WHEN you finish than HOW you finish.

The point about "using the saving of going modular to get a TR and hours on type with a line training provider" hours is that there [appears to be] a backlash from a lot of the respectable airlines that means they would -at best- consider you to be no more qualified with your TR and hours than a fATPL. This is partly due to perceived quality of training and SOPs you've been ingrained into and partly due to the detrimental effect on the industry overall. The likes of Ryanair and easyJet won't touch you either, as you'll be too experienced to be a cadet and not experienced enough for a direct LHS entry - if any exist. So choose carefully...

Overall *I* would suggest you should budget for no change at all from £50k for modular. That's BUDGET for the hard of reading, not "spend". You should budget the thick end of £65k for Integrated. Anything else is chaff in the wind. You will have to live, regardless of how you train.

Overall, you're doing the right thing. Do your own research and make your own choice. Neither is wrong, neither is right. Fwiw, if I were going to start training all over again, I think I'd probably choose modular right now.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Those numbers are about right. I think £50k for a Modular course and £70k for Integrated are commonly achieved. What is often a bigger factor is that people manage to do a Modular course whilst using holiday and a bit of unpaid leave and thus keep earning or keep a position of employment. For someone taking home £20,000 a year that makes a big difference.

If you can't get into the CTC or OAA 'programs' then you'd better budget on paying for a type rating on top of the basic license. There are jobs around where the employer still pays the type rating. But they are rocking horse manure.

So unless you've got about £70k to bring to the party don't bother getting dressed up.


Sadly.


WWW

[stuckgear]

Kieran, et al.

I agree with the above points made; Another way to look at it is RISK.

Neither path guarantees a job offer or potential employment and both will live you limited to other potential employment.

If you choose integrated with FTO 'A' that has links to provide prsopective candidates to certain partner airlines, then if those partner airlines shift their tie ins to another FTO, have a recruitment freeze, change policy, go out of business etc, then the potential of getting a job with airlines that have links with FTO 'B' is going to be difficult. very.

And the same in reverse.

If you choose modular, then you're in the position of finding it tough to get a look in with the airlines that look to recruit low time cadets from the FTO's they have links with.

Quite frankly, the recruitment of pilots in the UK/Europe is a mess and which ever way you consider, it is RISK.

[Pelikanpete]

£65K for an integrated course seems like a very, very low estimate. A quick look at OAA prices showes £75K for the basic course and exam fees. Once you include the extra costs - food, accommodation, travel and also medicals, the OAA skills assessment etc. and you will have little change left over from £90K. Lets not forget that the majority of integrated OAA students who are lucky enough to get a job with an airline still go to Ryan Air meaning they will have to pay for a type rating, just like the modular students do.

The prices and need to pay for a type rating are similar for all the other integrated schools, some are in fact much higher. Also integrated schools would have to work very hard to convince airlines to take integrated students and give them a free type rating when that airline could instead take a modular student who is willing to pay for a TR. Ultimately the airlines are interested in reducing their costs rather than having the very best first officers - otherwise they would just ignore cadets and pay more to employ more experienced pilots who already hold type ratings.

A £50K budget for modular training is reasonable if you are including living expenses and exam fees etc. Meaning a total of about £80K for modular with a type rating and £120K integrated with a type rating. Whether you work whilst doing modular training part time or just do full time modular training, the difference is still huge.

If you're funding the training with borrowed money, the extra interest alone would make a very significant difference. Paying back £120K plus interest over the years would probably total more than £200K and have a significant impact on life, mortgages, children etc.

For the lucky ones who get a job, flying is one of the better jobs out there but I would be inclined to say its definitely not worth doing integrated training and actually not really worth doing modular either because the career offers little job security and rapidly deteriorating pay and conditions. Worst case scenario might be £90K or even £120K debt and no flying job ever - a nightmare that has and is coming true for many. The more people who ignore the warnings, the worse it is for those already qualified but unable to find work.

There will never be a shortage of inexperienced pilots - only a shortage of experienced ones willing to work for peanuts. Anyone who tells you otherwise should be regarded with suspicion.

[clanger32]

PP,
a lot I agree with (last paragraph and warnings of understanding the total overall cost regardless of route) and a lot I disagree with in your post, which serves to illustrate the point I'm making.

Certainly I hadn't realised that OAA was now as high as £75k. ouch. But then, you've picked the FTO that's traditionally [one of] the most expensive and then try and justify the [cheapest?] modular route against it. Also, to get your £90k you've provided £15k to live for 15 months? really?

As an example, I don't know the full price of FTE Jerez, or Cabair (cos they make you register to find the price now - and I can't be bothered!) but according to THIS (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/357357-about-cabair-integrated.html) post from early 2009, Cabairs integrated offering could be done for as little £53500. Prices certainly won't have gone down since then, but I seriously doubt it's gone up by £20k either.

Conversely, after your post I did a little quick and dirty maths on three of the best known Modular providers in this country and (accepting it's quick and dirty, all done in this country etc etc) couldn't get it lower than £51500 (ish) - two of the three came in around £54k all in. It's also very noticable when you start really looking at modular, that very few orgs are prepared to put a cost out there in the same way as the integrated mob. I will caveat right up front here that I may have accidentally double counted some costs. BUT - equally, neither have I factored an MCC or JOC into these costs.

The truth is, you can't really compare the two - they are different beasts, but certainly the motto should be "do your own research"!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My £70k estimate for Integrated is based on CABAIR. Oxford and Jerez (depends on Euro/Sterling a bit) are more and CTC slightly more again.

When times were booming it paid to go Integrated. Fast, get in before the music stops, airlines getting recruitment planning wrong and pick up the phone to the large FTO's. It all made sense.

When times are awful it pays to go Modular. Slow, pace your spending to the job market, keep your debt low and be able to service it for longer until airlines get their recruitment numbers wrong again. I all makes sense.


Unfortunately where we've ended up is an expenditure arms race where a seemingly endless supply of Zombie Wannabes, some might call them an Army, seem willing and able to spend, 80, 90, 120 thousand pounds on flying training. This leaves most unable to compete and makes the job of First Officer a profit stream for airlines.


Keeping your debt low allows you to stay in the game longer and that is far more important than where you trained and how the syllabus was structured.


WWW

[UAV689]

Hear hear WWW, again wise words.

I have saved for the last 3 years for my cpl/ir/mcc, by working 2 jobs 7 days a week, along side studying every night whilst distance learning. I will be going to a 3 day week in may whilst flying 4 days a week.

The beauty of modular is it allows you to build your second career. I am now in a position where I will be earning more in my backup career than I am in my dream career. When I go down to a 3 day working week I will be earning more than I did when I first started my distance learning! The back up career gives me flexibility in the future, oil won't be around forever, and recessions will be back. I know I won't be on the dole for long if I get laid off at some point in my future aircrew career, or if I lose my class one, what is your back up plan? Especially if you have to service 100k of debt on top of a mortgage, wife and kids etc.

At the end of this 3 years of saving I will have enough for a fully funded license debt free. I will take a loan if needed for a TR but I can handle that if the end t+c are decent with a confirmed job. I will not risk my future for a pipe dream, play it safe people!

In fact with money in the bank from your savings doors will open for other opportunities. I have made an investment that if comes off I will walk away with enough profit for a FI ticket, and a house deposit, all after doing my training.

Don't get loaned up, work for it. It will all the sweeter when you get there.

[magicmick]

Much good information above, just to add my 2p, there’s a lot of speculation about the cost of mod vs integrated, bear in mind the prices quoted apply only if you finish everything on minimum hours with first time passes in everything. Not everyone manages that (I certainly didn’t) when you consider that OAA charge around £500 per hour for a twin plus instructor and a CAA skills test cost about £800 for a full skills test and about £500 for a partial (I not certain of the exact figures) plus rental of the aircraft for the test, a fail, partial and/ or extra tuition can easily push the costs very high. Sensible advice would be to allow a contingency (maybe 15%) on top of the basic cost to cater for this eventuality.

I definitely echo the sentiment of finding employment and saving up a fund before starting training and remaining employed for as long as possible throughout training there are some modular schools that will support students that want to train for CPL/ MEIR part time. Even doing this you will find money leaving the account quicker that it’s going in but at least you will have something going in and you will have Plan B if you don't find employment immediately after finishing training.

On the subject of living costs during training, there are many more modular training schools in the country than integrated so its more likely that there will be a modular school within commuting distance of where you live so you will be able to live at home while training with the same living expenses that you would have even if you weren’t training.

It will be interesting to see how aircraft like the Tecnam twin impacts on training costs, it’s reputed to be much cheaper to run than Seneca, Duchess or DA42 and some training schools (Airways and Aeros) seem to be taking it on. It will be interesting to see whether the reduced running costs will be passed onto the customer, whether maintenance costs are less than the competitors and whether the aircraft is robust enough to cope with the abuse and high usage rate that students will impose on it.

As mentioned earlier whether you went integrated or modular, first time passes etc etc are all very nice but timing is by far the biggest factor in finding employment.

[Pelikanpete]

Clanger32, Oxford is significantly cheaper than FTE and cheaper than CTC. I've not included £15K just for living - check the OAA website - it's for all the test fees and other expenses that are not included in the OAA quote and also travel to Arizona in addition to the normal living expenses. Also it is quite easy to get the modular done for less than £50K (especially with hour building in the US). Including all expenses I actually spent less that £40K. I'm very sceptical about the Cabair prices and don't think they have the connections with airlines to be worth anymore than modular - also you just get the hassle of being tied into a course that is of mixed quality when with modular you have the ability to choose your favoured ground school provider, hour building and then CPL/IR provider and dictate your own pace.

[clanger32]

PP,
It's not worth fighting over - I think we're both saying the same thing (although WWW actually said it more concisely than either of us) - integrated is good when times is good, modular a better bet when times is bad.

However, and just cos I is a pedant, the Oxford course is 69500, the regulatory fees 5500. All travel to/from (and accomodation in) the US is included in that price. Yer 75k (still "OUCH!" btw) gets you from 0-fATPL in min hours - if you can do it = of course, with OAA, if you do need extra training, or worse - partial/fail a flight test, the cost can rack up REALLY quickly.

FTE is only more expensive only because of current Fx rates - if the Euroid swings back the other way [however unlikely that may be] then it could well get a lot cheaper than OAA. The point I was trying to illustrate is that OAA are never far from the top of the most expensive way to an fATPL - so to compare the self styled "best", to be fair you should surely be comparing with the "best" modular schools - that means NOT just selecting the cheapest mod courses, in the cheapest aircraft, in the cheapest possible place to do it and so on....or else the comparison is distorted to the point of being worthless - for example, I'm sure I could make a modular course that was MORE expensive than the Cabair integrated if I tried hard enough - it would be AS valid an argument, but everyone would instantly say it was rollox....and rightly so!


However, the overall point is that it's not a comparison that can easily be made. As noted previously, right now, even as ex-integrated, I'd recommend modular as the way forward. There is undeniably *A* saving to be had by going modular - I just sincerely doubt that it's the £10quinzillion pounds that it's often stated as,

[Cherrytaz]

Some excellent information here, really relevant to the current economic climate. I, like a lot of young people here was fully intent on going straight into an integrated course straight out of school (aged 17). However I was advised on all fronts (including here) to get a college degree first as it would allow me a "backup" plan if all failed with the flying. I am now just turned 23 and have a degree and masters under my belt and have secured a job, starting in September. Thankfully I am now in a position to do my ppl straight off as I have built up savings over the years. When I start working I will be in a position to save on a weekly basis and hopefully within a year or two be able to continue my flight training.

The integrated route would have been disastrous for me. It would have put my parents under significant financial pressure (something that none of us want to do) and the result more than likely would have been a fully qualified atpl pilot with no job and 100,000 Euro in debt. I am now in a position to comfortably complete my ppl and keep saving toward further training.

One thing however is that I am 23 and not getting any younger so I really want to get my skates on and get going.

The advice here on pprune really is invaluable with regards to integrated/modular and would urge any budding 18 year old's to consider the information provided seriously. Bit of a rant but just my 2 cent's.

[Desert Strip Basher]

To understand the financial difference between modular and integrated look at it this way. Say integrated takes 18 months - cost £85k (including living costs). Modular I'd say is reasonable to complete in 2 yrs around the demands of a professional job. Lets say you can save £700/month over the period and all living costs are already accounted for. Cost of modular training (~£40k) less savings (24x700=£16800) is £23200! You will be £62k better off than an integrated bod, plus you'll have a well paid job during the search for an aircrew position while the integrated bods start stacking shelves. Beyond that the integrated bod probably has to add interest payments assuming a loan is taken out and then because of their rushing and further fanning the flames by paying for Type Ratings etc they've effectively dug their own grave. Final point is the modular aspirant also has a fallback career in case of illness/loss of license. Integrated training at present has to be blind stupidity. If people stopped trying to fast track their way into an airliner (thinking they'll be happy doing that for 40 odd years?!), and played the long game by starting off flying because they love it rather than because they want to get in a 737 asap then some sense might return to the industry. Rant over.

[clanger32]

Jesus wept.
I can't disagree with the concept that going integrated right now isn't what I'd choose to do, but the financial picture drawn up by DSB is utter, utter, utter horse *ahem*.

It's SO flawed I'm not even going to bother to highlight - if anyone goes modular on the strength of that argument, you need your head read significantly more than if you went integrated.

[Desert Strip Basher]

Flaw it then. I'd agree that the money saved could be spent on other things and the true cost of modular at ~£40k doesn't change, but then if you want to be a pilot what's of more value to you? If savings are coming in, you can't argue with the final financial situation presented - going modular while holding down a reasonably well paid job will leave you ~£60k better off than your integrated friend (assuming he/she doesn't take out a loan to finance their ego driven 'have it now' charge to oblivion), with a well paid job while you're looking for employment and with a fallback career. If you dispute my thread then I'd have to disagree with you again - if I'm wrong then now is as good a time as any to go integrated. But I know I'm right - self funded integrated and all the rot it's promoted in this industry has a lot of heartache to answer for. Either way - go on then, prove yourself.....................

[clanger32]

Really? HONESTLY?
you don't see the glaring holes in your argument?
ok - I'll take 5 mins to highlight some of the monster holes:

Say integrated takes 18 months - cost £85k (including living costs)

It doesn't. It takes 15 months. Alright, benefit of doubt, you're using round numbers for ease of calculation. £10k living cost is prob about right for an integrated course.

all living costs [whilst training modular] are already accounted for
- errr? What? So YOU don't have that £10k cost if you go modular? Your rent/mortgage and food costs are paid by someone else? No - what you mean is, "I already pay for those out of my salary, regardless of whether I'm training to be a pilot or not" - NOT that they don't apply. So - notwithstanding any following arguments - you have to add £15k of cost to your modular bill - cos you've got two years of living to fund out of your salary. To add the living costs to an integrated course, but NOT to a modular course, is only valid for those students who have to fund *TWO* sets of living. Otherwise, that cost is incurred whether you live in Oxford, Jerez, or Barnsley, whether you're a full time student or part time. To be clear - put it in a spreadsheet. What you're actually saying is "the cost of modular is £40k (*cough* *Cough*), +£15k of two years living expense, which is offset by two years of salary, whereas Integrated is £75k + £10k living cost which is not offset at all".

Modular I'd say is reasonable to complete in 2 yrs around the demands of a professional job
PLEASE tell me you're joking? Or do you mean "only the professional aspects of the training" - i.e. not including the lengthy PPL and hour building sections? If the latter, then you're again not comparing apples with apples. Include another £7k ish for a PPL and at least 6 months for the PPL + hours building.

If not, you honestly reckon that if doing it full time takes 18 months [which, as noted earlier, it doesn't] - that's 18 months of 9-5 every single day - you only need 6 months longer to do it, when only flying at weekends and evenings in the summer? Not including the fatigue of your day job causing you to "not want to go today", or missing flights because you don't have time to wait for wx to clear? Or the requirement to work late/weekends occassionally, or the inconvenience of having to fit your partner/friends in around it. Or allowing for more than min time, because you're NOT building your skills flying every day so it may take a bit longer to master asym approaches? You're either taking the p out of your employer - in which case you're unlikely to REMAIN employed for 2 years - or this is monstrously optimistic. I'd suggest the latter. 3/4 years if working full time is probably far more realistic. And actually, having been on PPRuNe for 5 years, I'd say that comes out as the most common and realistic time frame for those going mod whilst full time working.

If you're talking FULL TIME MOD, then yes. Totally agree. I would even go so far as to say you could match or better an integrated course timescales. But that's not what you said. Consider ground school alone is 6 months FULL TIME, without 9 months of full time flying.

Lets say you can save £700/month over the period
- ok, so to "live" (£10k a year, remember) and save £700 a month, you need to earn a minimum of £23k gross. And have NO OTHER COSTS AT ALL. Like travelling to/from work. Like going out. Like running a car or going on holiday or buying clothes (either for home or work), supporting a family or doing ANYTHING fun. £700 a month - alright, probably is achievable, but it's not very realistic for most people. Therefore you're presenting a case that's based around unrealistic scenarios - one that only someone working full time, earning more than £23k a year and with no other costs could meet. Not something that most people could meet.

Cost of modular training (~£40k)
No. it's not, is it. I'm sure that it CAN be done for that, taking the cheapest option at every corner, but let's be fair - if you're comparing the cheapest (or nearly cheapest) with integrated, let's compare it with the cheapest integrated course.....£53500 with Cabair. Or, let's compare your probably-about-right sum for "integrated courses" of £85k all in, with well recommended suppliers of modular....as noted earlier, on current prices, places such as BCFT, Aeros, SFC etc coming in at around £50-£55k. Not including your £15k of living costs. Even the original poster comes in at just a touch shy of £50k. So, to support your argument, you've shaved 20% off the cost that even WWW reckons is about reasonable and then compared it with [one of] the most expensive courses out there. hmmm.

You then start on about how integrated students [who don't get a job quickly - and let's also be clear here, they go integrated for the perceived BETTER chance of a job] will only be shelf fillers. And how they'll have to pay all that nasty interest.
What about those who have VERY good fallback careers - like me, currently earning more than all bar legacy captains. or the Oxford University Graduate who is a fund manager that I trained with, or the police seargeant who has gone back to the force? Or those who paid the whole costs with their own cash and no debt whatsoever?
What about the modular guys who funded every single penny with debt - and believe me, I would say the VAST majority of mod guys I know took at least some debt - most of them took nearly all of it as debt.

This is the major, major, major problem. People ALWAYS compare the most expensive, worst case scenario of integrated against the cheapest, best case scenario for mod. I think in five odd years on PPRuNe I've only ever seen one modular student ACTUALLY try and compare like for like. You sell [I]yourself the concept it's £40-50-60k cheaper, because it helps justify your own choice, but you don't want to admit the more realistic numbers.

You [modular defenders] always conveniently forget that nice metric "time to first job" and the kicker that goes with it - unfreezing your ATPL and the increase in salary/seniority that goes with it. Want to put some figures on that? I'd argue that if it took the integrated student a year to find first job and the modular a year and a half, the increase over your working life in salary/seniority would more than cover the delta. But strangely, that's never considered - because it makes the scales a LITTLE more balanced.

Look - I really don't disagree with the concept that modular is cheaper, or that it's the best route to go for the forseeable future, but if you've qualified then you have a duty of care to those that follow to present accurate, realistic pictures, not to dress up your own choice in spurious argument.s

[Desert Strip Basher]

Sorry, but nothing you have said changes my opinion. The living costs are covered within the working salary - £700 saving per month is above these, and allows for mortgage, bills, holidays (did you keep your other half on side with holidays during your integrated course?), car etc. I know as I've achieved it. Without anything coming in, food and living costs are taken from your savings, not your salary.

I'll take the bit about 2yrs - it probably is a bit longer though not necessarily. But then hey, that's more savings for the mod guy so take another £6-8k off the final modular situation. Doesn't bother me whether integrated is 12 months or 18 months - the cost is still substantially the same, beans on toast for 6 months doesn't amount to much.

Modular can be done for £35k - £45k - even cheaper if you actually love flying and have done hour building by towing gliders etc. So £40k is average. Typical cost for integrated is £75k (I'm considering FTE, CTC and Oxford - wouldn't include Cabair in this debate).

The increased earnings argument you make doesn't really stack up - as the mod guy still has a good job while on the job hunt. And the final bit - the modular bod can time the final push - luckily it sounds like your friends could go back to their day jobs. Good for them. Was integrated really worthwhile?? You sound a little bitter....................

[M_Wall13]

Sadly the Cabair Integrated course now costs £62500, call it ~ £72000 with accommodation/living costs and all the extras. But their doing a structured modular course (JAA Pro Pilot Programme) mostly in the US for a alot cheaper, I've worked it out as ~ £41000 basic, plus the extras ~ £47000, all due to them now being Cabair International :)

[clanger32]

ok, I'm not going to argue. All I ask is people THINK about the WHOLE BLOODY THING not just the obvious bits.

Now, just humour me and answer two questions.
1. If flight training was not on the agenda AT ALL, for either of our mythical students, what would they need to fund to live for a year? If your answer is "the same" - why then would you add the "cost" of living to one course but not the other - that cost exists, regardless of whether you are learning to fly or not - UNLESS you have to fund one home whilst living away - in which case it's valid. If there is a fundamental difference between the two people whereby one costs more to live than the other, then please explain.
2. Go to PPJN and look up the salary scales for a decent carrier. Let's use Thomas Cook. here: Thomas Cook Airlines (UK jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Thomas_Cook_Airlines_(UK))
Now. Fire up a spreadsheet and copy/paste in the F/O and captain salary values per year given. Now. We have to assume that the integrated student is available to work AT LEAST a year prior to the mod - purely because he'll finish sooner, because he's full time. Let's also assume that both land a job - lucky so and so's - straight out of flight school - so ignoring the main selling point of integrated. Let's assume both never lose their medicals and get to enjoy 25 years after the first finishes flying school and they have continuous service before retiring with their respective better halves. Add it up. Seriously, add up the columns. This is really, really basic economics, but it proves the point about length of service. The fact that the integrated student has a year extra working is tail loaded. It means over a 25 year working life, he earns the top level salary for A YEAR LONGER. It means over a 25 year career the difference in salary is £109k more. But what if our modular student takes *2* years longer that integrated boy to finish? WOW £219k less! But that's ok huh .... cos you've earned £25 a year for those two years you lost.

I am NOT trying to sell or push or guide anyone to integrated - but for gods sake - LOOK at the whole picture. Yes modular is cheaper up front, but what's the long term cost? You can argue all you like if you don't like the numbers, but that's how it is. That's how it breaks down. The sooner you get into [professional aviation] the larger the final amount of money you'll make out of it. Same in ANY career.

[Desert Strip Basher]

I'm really worried I'm causing you a nervous breakdown. Right:

1. As another poster has said above, if you want to add living costs to both please do so. But also take my salary off that - and that's £43k. That's £43k of income that an integrated student would not get BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WORKING!!! Hope you now get it. To be fair - you should also take off all my holidays, car etc. It will bring you back to the £700/month figure. Either way I've still had a good quality of life, while training at my own pace.

2. For that mythical year you are ahead, I'm still working in my non flying job (at actually better than a FO salary - but that's by the wayside). Anyway - I'll let you believe that you'll get in 1 year earlier (£60k has to be worth something). However, when you're on yr 25 salary, I'm on yr 24 salary, so it's only the difference between the two, not a full yr 25 salary (your understanding of basic economics is worrying to say the least). So take into account I've got £60k invested for 25 years (maybe property), was already paid better than you as an FO for one year while I was still looking for work and you'd got your flying job. Add to that the real world scenario that as you've raced into a dodgy employment situation rather than slowing down as a modular student would, then we just might be as employable as one another anyway.

I'll take my chances thanks!!

[Desert Strip Basher]

A123 - you're worrying me now too!! You haven't understood his point because he's making the assumption that in his first year working, the mod student is on the dole. That's the point, a mod student is still working and in many cases on a salary greater than what can be expected of an entry level FO position. It shouldn't be all about money, but it generally seems to be for these integrated mob and what I'm trying to show you is that even for the lucky few, the only ones winning are the integrated FTO providers.

[redsnail]

clanger 32, I appreciate what you are trying to do but sadly, reality also kicks in.
(For me, all this talk of modular v integrated is all moot but any way)

You're 36, did an integrated course and as far as I can tell, not flying professionally. (Sorry about that, I am not having a go at you). So, now you (and others in a similar position) have a very expensive "blue book" that is not paying it's way.

If some one had to take a loan to do this integrated course, then they are really behind the pay/pension drag curve, especially as they near 40.

I am in that situation but for a different reason. I shifted countries at 35 and converted my Australian ATPL to a JAA one. I now pay into my pension per month what I used to earn gross flying freight in the UK.

One other factor is that some one straight out of school is not going to have upwards of £100K lying around, so they had to get the money from somewhere.
That needs to be factored in.

My 2 cents/pence for what it's worth.
I'll go with WWW, integrated for when the economy is recovering. Modular all the time.
However, I'll expand my thoughts. Integrated if all you want to do is fly an airliner. Modular for those who want options and flexibility.

Remember, easyJet and Ryanair have both forecast a slow down in their expansion.

Good luck to all of you, I wish we all had a crystal ball so we could make the right decision. What is the right decision for Bloke A, is not always the right decision for Bloke B.

[fabbe92]

When is the easy/ryan slowdown expected? 2,3,4 or 5 years?

[Bealzebub]

To add to what redsnail has already said, you also need to ask yourself, "what is it you want"?

If you want a CPL/IR with 250 hours and the basic tool to apply for "aerial work" and entry level jobs wherever they may be found, then the modular route is probably the way to go. Anybody with a Class one medical certificate and a reasonble level of aptitude and determination should be able to save money on the required training and testing necessary for licence aquisition.

If you seriously intend to have a shot at an airline pilots job with only 250 hours, then the best bet is through that airlines "cadet scheme" if it operates or subscribes to one. For those that do, they will virtually all do so through affiliated, integrated programmes through (in the UK) one of the "Big 3" training providers (CTC, FTE, Oxford.) This will be either through an integrated ATPL scheme, or possibly the more recently introduced MPL scheme.

Pretending that there is some sort of "mix & match" scheme is pointless. Airlines are not short of candidates. The flexibility and cost benefits that these schemes give those companies is also protected by the assurance they are provided by having those low houred entrants come from recognised, monitored and mentored training providers.

Where recruitment is occuring now it is sourcing these integrated low houred cadets via these schemes, as well as experienced type rated and qualified pilots. There is no shortage of pilots from either source, and there is isn't likely to be in the forseeable future.

You only have to look at the recruitment that is now occuring in those airlines that are recruiting to see evidence of this. Then take a look at the expansion in facilities that is for example taking place at Flybe in Exeter. The number of people going through "wings" courses at CTC. New MPL programmes at Oxford in conjunction with Easyjet. Affliated ATPL/MPL programmes with FTE. All of these courses are well subscribed, and likely to be able to amply provide for any short term requirement. They also have the ability to ramp up quickly to meet any anticipated future need. Couple this with the stock of experienced pilots such as those looking to move up their own career ladder, as well as the easily converted stock of career change military pilots, and you see just how squeezed those "modular candidates" are now and are likely to be in the future.

The CPL/IR and 250 hours is the bottom rung of the ladder without one of these "fast track" programmes. It is a ladder that can certainly be climbed, but the difficulties and frustrations involved, as well as the likely attrition rate, shouldn't be underestimated by anybody.

So again, before asking yourself "which is cheaper," you need to understand what it is you actually want from the outlay, before that cost becomes the overriding factor. If it is airline employment......

Ask yourself the following questions:

1) Which countries do I have the unrestricted right to live and work in?

2) Which of those countries principal languages do I speak fluently?

3) Where do the airlines in these countries employ their "low hour" pilots from?

4) Is my proposed training programme likely to elicit any interest from these airlines, based on their current recruitment requirements?

[Desert Strip Basher]

And if choosing your integrated provider as Bealzebub says is your only "fast track" route in, then choose wisely. The connections are now so tight do you think that someone trained at Oxford has much chance at a CTC affiliated airline and vica versa? So it could be that you pay over inflated prices to actually limit your options!

My replies yesterday weren't intended to be a personal onslaught. The point is this, talent isn't king, cash is. Selection is predominantly with regard to depth of pocket. The example I was trying to illustrate wasn't that modular is better than integrated or vica versa, it was to show that costs to support over inflated integrated prices are being pushed up from the bottom by ill advised wannabees and pinched from the top by accountants such that the stakes for anyone with common sense are now simply too high. At a cost of £20k it's probably worth chancing your arm to see if you are good enough (assuming selection was aptitude based rather than cash based). This can only be achieved at present via the modular route - though as Bealzebub says, this may be futile. So the other option - integrated (plus a potential TR) at £80-110k+ to have maybe a chance of getting in for a year or two........you'd have to be mad. So as much as Bealzebub's post is trying to help - in my view there really isn't an answer unless you have more money than sense and unfortunately it seems quite a few have. I dare say many of those most suited to the profession are now discouraged from airline flying for this very reason. Others, like our good integrated friend above, find themselves high and dry. Such a shame.

[yippy ki yay]

I was going to write a nice big post, but lost interest half way through so here's my condensed opinion:

1. I'm with Beazlebub on the integrated-to-airline route and modular to keep options open/flexibility

2. And if choosing your integrated provider as Bealzebub says is your only "fast track" route in, then choose wisely. The connections are now so tight do you think that someone trained at Oxford has much chance at a CTC affiliated airline and vica versa? So it could be that you pay over inflated prices to actually limit your options!By that argument though you are saying that by going modular you are limiting your options even further...but at least you get to spend a little less. (assuming you were wanting to have a shot with an airline)

3. I dare say many of those most suited to the profession are now discouraged from airline flying for this very reasonNo doubt true...but having said that it doesn't mean that those who weren't discouraged are in any way less suited to the profession.

4. Fable - from what I've heard, Ryan will stop the large recruitment in 2013 as I think thats when the last planes are due to be delivered. Not sure about Easy.

5. I agree with whats been mentioned about the actual "cost" of doing flight training. Its not all monetary but comes in many forms such as what it is you actually want out of it and what gives you the best chance to achieve that.

6. I'm sure I'm going to get slaughtered for saying this but I actually think now is a good time to do an integrated course (and modular of course). If you were to start now you would in theory get your CPL/IR by late 2012/early 2013, I feel the situation is going to be a lot better than it is now and I think most things will be recovering nicely by then.

[captainsuperstorm]

sons, if you have to calculate how much your training will cost you, I can tell you already, you are on the wrong track and you go :ugh:.

this profession is for the rich one, not the one who need to work hard to pay back their debts.

[Desert Strip Basher]

Point 2. I agree modular limits you further. Once again - I'm not trying to say one training route is better than the other, I'm trying to illustrate that people's over eagerness to pay over inflated prices are too high a personal gamble and the current training industry practices (both FTO's and wet-behind-the-ears-money-no-object applicants) will have a long term detrimental effect (if not already). I'd even venture further that integrated training is possibly more effective though with one major factor for consideration. The integrated courses were at one time the sole preserve of sponsorship schemes (BA et al) - selection was by aptitude and this regulated the 'integrated industry'. Now misguided people are being encouraged (by the revenue hungry providers, not the employers) to take ever higher gambles. I am simply trying to raise awareness that this has perhaps gone too far.

Point 4. I understand what you are referring to but not sure which point you are replying to?

[clanger32]

I didn't really want to respond to this thread again, as it just re-hashes the same old arguments and certainly I have no wish to engage/enrage DSB just because we disagree on this point - I've certainly seen enough in the postings to see we agree largely on other things. However, a couple of points:

To be VERY clear, right now I wouldn't recommend an integrated course. I'm with Redsnail, WWW and everyone else...time your training. It's NOT that I'm saying "integrated is better"....WWW summed it up perfectly as far as I'm concerned "integrated when it's good, modular when it's smelly". It's still vaguely whiffy right now.
DSB - where we DO disagree, is that no, the difference in our theoretical example is NOT the difference between PP24 and PP25. it IS PP25. I get the impression that you haven't really stopped to try and analyse what I'm saying, because you are just disagreeing with ME. Remember your ATPL exams - look for evidence which DISPROVES your current thinking, not that supports it. Look at it this way - right down in column A the yearly pay point from 1 to 25. Now repeat in column 2, but exclude pp25 (because, as per our example, student B will never REACH pp25 - because they finished a year after student A. Again, note that this is NOTHING to do with "speed of getting a job" - it's just that Student A CAN get a job a year earlier, because they finsihed the training earlier - it actually does NOT include the concept that Integrated MAY get a job quicker). Now, with your two columns, cross reference - play "snap" with the numbers. you will find that you can cross out EVERY SINGLE NUMBER in column A from the numbers in column B. Except PP25. THAT is the difference. That is what you will have NOT earned in your new career by finishing later. Please - don't just react and say "what a load of horsesh... Clanger is talking"....go and do it. Really - go and put it into a spreadsheet. You're right, the difference is offset by the fact you're still earning your £43k in student A's year one.....but would you rather have the £109k TC pay for that year, or the £43k?
RS - you're absolutely right- thing is, I took a gamble - I started training at the best ever time for low houred recruitment....unfortunately some pillock broke the economy whilst I was training. I am more or less resigned to the fact that I will never fly professionally now. I have no debt whatsoever (other than my mortgage...). do I REGRET it? Difficult question. Sure, I could use the £70k in my bank now, but I went for it, I could not have given anything more to it and I finished with the best possible opportunity to gain employment. I was also unlucky in that I just missed selection for your mob, although I did enjoy Lisbon ;) But sometimes that's just the curveball life throws you. My ONLY intent in offering ANY opinion on these forums is to provide MY experience and to try and present a clear picture. There is MORE than enough I wouldn't argue against someone slating an integrated course for, but if we're doing the pure "cost" then I feel it should be balanced correctly, NOT taking the cheapest possible way of doing one method and comparing it against the most expensive route for the other.

[Desert Strip Basher]

Clanger - you're right (sort of) and I apologise as something had also been niggling me about the calculation too. However - it still isn't the value of the final year. What it is, is the difference between each and every year we're employed. If you use Thomas Cooks figures, in general each year you would be ~£1000-1500 better off. Over a 25 year career that's ~£31k (not the £109k). Integrated still doesn't work out financially, even in this hypothetical situation of employment, though weighted with the fact that integrated probably does give you a head start, I'll accept that there is a little more balance than I demonstrated. However, I'd temper that with the view that predicting employment any further on than about 4yrs is lacking any substance - once in then it's every man for himself and you're at the mercy of the economy.

[clanger32]

Heh heh

However, I'd temper that with the view that predicting employment any further on than about 4yrs is lacking any substance - once in then it's every man for himself and you're at the mercy of the economy

Amen brother. Amen.

I'll accept that there is a little more balance than I demonstrated
All I was ever seeking to illustrate.. :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks to all recent posters. This is an excellent up to date thread for Wannabes encountering the infinity loop of Int vs Mod. Views on both sides with realistic numbers have been used. It does not matter who is right or wrong - illumination has been provided in a manner and to a degree unavailable elsewhere.

Thank you.

[wikifreaks]

I love a good argumnet boys but I feel as if modular is now taking a headway as every airline now wants you to pay for your type rating. Once you have the rating, no one gives a stuff about your past. If you can still receive a rating for free (doesnt exist) then integrated all the way.

[Jugs08]

I think Clanger makes a very good point. I personall like the whole idea of modular because of the reduced risk for various reasons however. I had a full time job and it took me a year to get a PPL flying at weekends with already 11 hours. I've also incured remedial training due to this again increasing the cost.


Modular Figures:
The figures I Worked off were:
PPL + night 8k
ATPL Exams (Bristol GS) £3000
Hour Building £7000 SFC
CPL/IR/ME £20k SFC
MCC 2k SFC
Living Fees including Petrol Medical Landing Fees 15k

vs

Integrated
Oxford 76k
CTC 70K
PTC 72k

Around 40k however the cost of living including driving to the FTO Landing fees soon adds up. So I'd say a realistic Modular all UK is around 55k including everything.

But obviously if you were to go CTC or Oxford them it will be alot more.
Personally I feel that if yo do train all at one place in a continous way you will be better than the Modular Pilot who takes 2-3 years. Also with Integrated you can immense yourself into purly Flying without the worry of other things going on in life.

And that through integrated you will be more likely to get a Job due to the training you have received not by the company it was with.

You are only as good as your training. Thats why RAF pilots are the best. So are you going to receive the best training for the cheapest price. Hmm im not sure in the same way the best Pay in any job is with those more capable either by experience or natural ability or both.

I think the notion of walking from Flight Training into a Job is quite unlikily at the moment. But if anyone has read Airliner World recently you would know that growth figures all over the shot. There will always be new jobs somewhere. However; lets not forget its a top profession and is very competitive.

Forcast
Its forcast that Europe is going to need 3,600 new Pilots annually.
World over 20,000 Per Annun.

What about the actors that go to Hollywood and make their dream happen or the people that start their own empires. It has to happen to someone. Maybe it won't be you. But a key trait in anyone successful is perserverance and activity to make it happy. All I know is that life is not a rhersal. If you want to do something enough then do it; because 70k debt isn't the best way to start your woking life; but if it's going to give you happy career then why not?

If you don't try then your not gonna know.

[Desert Strip Basher]

I give up. Taking a horse to water must be more fun...............

[Artie Fufkin]

When is the easy/ryan slowdown expected? 2,3,4 or 5 years?
Ryanair take delivery of their last B737 in around 2 years from now.

[student88]

I'm a modular student. I'm going to be honest with you about what it's cost/going to cost me..

PPL £8,000 (approximate as I didn't keep track of what I spent) including things like a decent headset, flying gear, books etc..

Hour building £9,900 ex landing fees at other airports and petrol to get to/from the airfield. Luckily I fly a PA28 out of Cranfield for £99 per hour wet inc. landing fees.

ATPLs (Bristol Ground School)
Course - £2140
Exam fees - £924 (14 @ £66 a pop!)
Accommodation in Bristol - £600 (£300 for each 2 week stint)
Hotel at Gatwick for exams - £400
ATPL total = £4,064 (and that figure doesn't include lunches and dinner and general spending money)

CPL/ME/IR @ Stapleford £25,000 (will include a suggested 10% contingency fund on top of the all inclusive course cost)

MCC hasn't been done but you can add another £2,000 to 3,000 on top easily.

Total = £50,000

[captain.weird]

50.000 pounds sounds a lot less stress then 90.000 right? Did you do it with a full or part time job? Im thinking to start my course over a year or so, the PPL, now Im just first year student for a bachelor degree. So in the beginning of my third year I want to start my flying course!! We'll see...

[captainsuperstorm]

found this somwhere on the net:

For the kid asking about UD, I graduated the University of Dubuqe and now fly at a regional of Delta. Unlike others, I still love aviation and had a great time in college, but if there is any kind of advice I can pass on to you is to simply not go the University route unless you can avoid loans. I've been instructing/flying a CRJ for the last 5 years and 19,000-30,000 dollars a year does not pay 140,000 dollars of loans. My monthly payment is $1300 dollars!!!! My first year at the regional was 600 dollars every two weeks, and being a commuter to Minneapolis meant I couldn't afford a crash pad, so I along with a few others spent months literally living in the terminal for five days in a row on reserve, sleeping on recliners in the sleep room, and washing up in the family bathrooms, or bumming a shower off a pilot friends apartment. I had huge trouble paying my loans and I had to split one foot-long subway sandwich per day because that was all I could afford with no per diem. *I work at a respectable regional with a good reputation. Now three years later I am still on reserve and am barely busting into $30,000...that is 900 dollars every two weeks plus maybe per diem if I get to fly. *if that's the kind of financial situation you want, go to a university program. Otherwise, go to a community college, work your way through your ratings, and come out as debt free as possible. The Loan counselors will fill you with "oh don't worry, youll be able to pay, oh don't worry, the loan companies will help you out, oh don't worry everybody takes out loans, oh don't worry just sign here". They only want your money, and the loan companies are like office mafia if you don't pay them.*

[stuckgear]

Personally I feel that if yo do train all at one place in a continous way you will be better than the Modular Pilot who takes 2-3 years. Also with Integrated you can immense yourself into purly Flying without the worry of other things going on in life.

And that through integrated you will be more likely to get a Job due to the training you have received not by the company it was with.

You are only as good as your training. Thats why RAF pilots are the best. So are you going to receive the best training for the cheapest price. Hmm im not sure in the same way the best Pay in any job is with those more capable either by experience or natural ability or both.

I think the notion of walking from Flight Training into a Job is quite unlikily at the moment. But if anyone has read Airliner World recently you would know that growth figures all over the shot. There will always be new jobs somewhere. However; lets not forget its a top profession and is very competitive.

Forcast
Its forcast that Europe is going to need 3,600 new Pilots annually.
World over 20,000 Per Annun.

What about the actors that go to Hollywood and make their dream happen or the people that start their own empires. It has to happen to someone. Maybe it won't be you. But a key trait in anyone successful is perserverance and activity to make it happy. All I know is that life is not a rhersal. If you want to do something enough then do it; because 70k debt isn't the best way to start your woking life; but if it's going to give you happy career then why not?

If you don't try then your not gonna know.


DSB,


I give up. Taking a horse to water must be more fun...............


I know, i couldn't agree more ! :ugh:

[student88]

I've been doing it whilst holding down a full time job captain.weird. The thing to remember is that up until the CPL/MR/IR I was in no debt at all. The debt came when I had to borrow £14K to put towards the cost of the CPL/ME/IR. You wouldn't get that with an integrated course..

[737-NG]

Guys are you not aware there are now many schools offering Modular but in one shot (which would take between 12 and 18 months) for around 50000£? And more and more are doing it so why pay the extra 30£?? Get a type and some line training if you really wanna spend that extra cash!! Then see wh'os more competitve. 200 TT integrated with 50 on the sim or you 700 total a rating and 500 h on type!

[GAZ45]

I dont understand why this thread is so long...... Pay 30-50K for a license or pay around 100K for the exact same license?????!

Urm... Lets try it a different way...

Pay £400 for a 42 inch samsung TV or pay £1000 for a 42 inch samsung TV?


One thing I dont understand is people who are willing to throw money away. If you go on the OAA site you can look up the APPFO course and what it involves along with the cost, around 85K all told (not including TR).

Then just click the modular tab on the OAA site. Their modular includes the CPL/IR/MCC/JOC for about 30K.

Lets say you were to go modular and did everything you could at oxford:

- JAA approved UK PPL can be done for 7K and in 4 weeks at some schools in the US, and inc. night qual & RT.

- Hour building in US to get you to 100 hours PIC and 150TT can be done in 75 hour block for £5500 along with a few hours in UK. Total: £8000

- OAA ATPLs distance learning: £1200!!

- OAA CPL/IR/MCC: £29000

- OAA JOC: £2000

So after completing PPL and hour building cheaply in US and partially in UK you can then go the whole hog with Oxford if you wanted, to the point where you'd be in the exact same position as a APPFO graduate.

The total cost for the same license done modularly at Oxford Aviation would amount to;

£47,200

Yet their APPFO course is practically identical after your completion of your PPL and hour building but they manage to charge people double for the same thing. The best part is, people fall for it!!

:eek:

[Johnny Bekkestad]

So far my integrated has cost me 45000USD which is about 27000GBP, i have all my FAA's done. Meaning
PPL, ME, Instrument, CLP, MEI, CFI and CFII. I have more than 200 hours of PIC in a multi engine airplane, i start to work as a CFI in may earning money and time. And i december i will start my ATPLs. And i have another 20000USD/13000GBP for my ATPLs, JAA CPL and FI rating. Then i am looking at my JAA instrument and i have yet to decide where to take that...

So my integrated was not that bad specially since i got money from my government to pay for it as i am enrolled in a college.

Just my 2cents

[BoeingDreamer]

The government gave you the money or lent you the money?

End works out double of modular, but you have work, so might be worth it.

[student88]

Some Scandinavian countries have aviation colleges where the government pays for training for selected individuals. Elsewhere in Europe this doesn't happen.

[Bealzebub]

I dont understand why this thread is so long...... Pay 30-50K for a license or pay around 100K for the exact same license?????!

Urm... Lets try it a different way...

Pay £400 for a 42 inch samsung TV or pay £1000 for a 42 inch samsung TV?

Absolutely right, if the licence is all you want. The problem is that many people here are looking beyond the licence, and how to acquire some manner of remunerated employment with it.

Most of the airline opportunities (few as they are,) for low houred pilots with these licences, are through the cadet schemes. These schemes are through particular training programmes.

To use your analogy. Pay £400 for a 42 inch Samsung TV that you can watch, or pay £1000 for a 42 inch Samsung TV that comes with the possibility of a technicians job attached to it.

It is a case of what is it you actually want to do with that licence.

[Artie Fufkin]

Gaz45, with even a 5 minute cursory glance, it is easy to see some fairly biased figures coming out in your calculations. For example, why have you added the "Regulatory Exam Fees" package (£5,5K) to the integrated course price but not added the same associated costs to your modular calculations? Why have you factored in the accomodation in Oxford only for the integrated course? Why have you rounded £82k up to £85K? Where's the flight over to the US in the modular calculation? US medical insurance? Rent in US during hour building? Visa fees? Landing fees in UK? I'm sure there's more...

Try and look at it impartially and dispassionately and you find the integrated premium (whilst still significant) to be far smaller than you have calculated. As to what value that premium brings is moot, but I personally agree with Bealzebub.

[Christian A]

Can I just add that the argument of cost and job prospects aside regarding the Integrated V Modular argument, I would choose modular all over again because of the fun I had doing it! Integrated is just a meat factory: in one end and out the other with no real experience gained along the way!
Yes you may get a job quicker than a modular but lets be honest, we'll all get there in the end, it's the stories you can tell about how you get there that will make it interesting. I did a BA hons Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Traning and graduated last summer, did my FI, had a great summer instructing and am now doing my MSc Air Transport Management at Cranfield University and instructing at weekends! Better than integrated any day!

[Bealzebub]

but lets be honest, we'll all get there in the end
You think? A nice idea, but it would not be "honest" to suggest that is the case. The attrition rate has always been significant, and nothing suggests that will change anytime soon.

If I were to offer an open fully funded scholarship (and I'm not doing by the way,) whereby the winner could select their own training programme from one of three routes, those routes being:

1)Integrated training course leading to airline cadetship.
2)Integrated training course for CPL/IR (ATPL writtens included.)
3)Part time, modular training for CPL/IR (ATPL writtens included.)

I would be amazed if less than 95% of applicants ticked other than box 1.
I would be even more amazed if the remaining 5% ticked other than box 2.

The point of the hypothesis being, that it really comes down to a question of absolute economics. If choices 1 and 2 and not affordable, then it really only leaves one choice. Whatever the advantages 1 or 2 may afford are irrelevant if they are not realistic options. Given the very large sums involved, that is going to be a de facto reality for the vast majority of aspirants.

I admire your achievement, determination and success to date Christian, which should stand you in good stead for the future. However many people here take the viewpoint (understandably) that the risk is dependant on the ability to achieve a relatively quick return. That often seems to result in people distorting the reality of what is actually happening, in order to make their own numbers fit.

Attrition notwithstanding, there is a large body of hopeful opinion that suggests it is an equal playing field provided you simply obtain a licence. That in turn often fails to identify where the goals are, or what the realities of the game itself are.

[Jugs08]

Yes you do make a very good point Beazelbub. Everyone would choose integrated but it's not viable for some people. Personally; I was modular until I got a cadetship so im now starting integrated training. Would I have otherwise no. Do I think with working a full week flying at weekends and studying for exams will be done as good as if I was flying the whole time no. For those that are thinking of doing the modular and work. I would recommend you to try it first. A 1 hr flight will take 3 hours out of your day home to home time. Longer flights may take your whole day. Can you work a full day then study for 3-4 hours in the evening for ATPL exams and get enough time off from your employer for the revision courses usually 2 weeks before the exams. Your looking at around 30 days of holiday all used on Flying.

Friday night you come home and sleep ready for flying your not out on the piss even though you've had a hard week.

I'm not saying that it's going to be easy but these are the questions that you have to ask yourself and I have found personally that when I start adding up the costs of Modular e.g. extra time required as the weather has been **** for the past 6 weekends. Regulatory fee's ect. Then it falls around the 55k mark.

Yes is it cheaper than integrated no doubt but the question you have to ask yourself is; can you justify spending the extra money in order to complete the course quicker and "hopefully" to a better standard because your fully immersed.

I've been waiting for the last 3 years now so this is my chance; there will never be another opportunity in my life to make this happen and have wanted to do this since like 8. I think the problem is people leaving schools and choosing ah i'll be a pilot lots of money and good career; without the resolve to make it thorugh the tough initial period.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

BoeingDreamer:
I got some money as a loan and some money as a scholarship. The loan part i have to pay back, but it is a very low interest rate, much lower than any bank. I do not have to pay anything before i start working again. I know guys who borrowed money and they had to calculate mortgage and interest rate for the duration of the flight training.

Now, the end cost comes in relation on how much you must fly.
I busted my A$$, studied really really hard and did everything within minimums. Yes it can be done. And my costs are down.

I calculate that after two years, i will be all the ratings Commercial single, multi, CFI, CFII, MEI in both FAA and JAA for around 50000GBP/80000USD, a college degree in Aviation Science and more than 600 multi hours. And i will be working as a flight instructor for around 1 year earning money towards my degree.

So far i am extremely happy!

[student88]

Boys, look, this argument isn't achieving anything. At the end of the day there are always going to be two options. No one is saying either way is right or wrong. You buy a Audi or Ford - they'll both get you from London to Leeds. Some people like Ford, some like Audi. You're always going to have a demand for the more expensive and apparently exclusive integrated schemes - that's just the way people are and vice versa.

That said..

As it stands all those who have spent out £80K+ on a integrated course are getting is a jet job with crap terms and conditions, crap pay and crap contracts. Yeah, at least they're getting experience on type but most are heavily in debt and will be paying the money back for years to come.

Modular guys, keep up the hard work - as much as some people like to tell you your hard work is worth nothing because you're not as desirable as integrated students, they're wrong. There will always be competition between the divides. Most of the pilots I speak to at work who have come through Oxford/CTC all say the same thing - "I regret it". Many have said how if they had to do it all again they'd go modular. CTC have a nickname given to them by their students which is Criminal Thieving :mad: - surely that says it all?

If people want to go integrated then let them do so. Sooner or later the demand for pilots is going to become so great that even the large flight schools won't be able to quench the industries thirst.

Your time will come, and when it does you'll have less debt then those who took the other path - and probably a better job/contract because they've all taken the crap offers from easyJet/Ryanair. When the airlines get desperate again they'll have to offer better pay and who knows maybe a free type rating!

Believe me, your efforts will be rewarded sooner or later.

[clanger32]

I didn't want to yet dragged back into this disussion, but I just wanted to reiterate the point I was trying to make earlier, partic in light of the assertion student88 makes that eventually demand will be so high that the airlines will HAVE to emoy everyone.

What I would implore everyone considering flight training to do is consider the WHOLE costs - not just the headline financial cost. Look at the discussion DSB and I were having earlier in the thread and consider how it impacts your long term earning, time to command etc. Look at the very cogent arguments beazlebub puts forward - MOST people I know in life come to the conclusion - at some point - in their life that simply buying the cheapest [whatever it may be] isn't necessarily getting the best value for your money - so why do you expect it to be so for Flight training?

Modular or integrated will both get you a blue book. They are different beasts, so you cant simply say one is better than the other.... Instead it is up to YOU, the buyer, to familiarise yourself with all aspects of the pros and cons of both sides and choose accordingly.

[pug]

Clanger32, or anyone else, as a matter of interest how do the modular courses at OAA CTC etc compare with intergrated? I have read on here over the years that intergrated get 'preferential treatment'?

I have a friend who went through OAA intergrated a few years ago, now at FR. He is happy, but then its what he has always wanted to do hence us being friends for so many years, because of shared interest. I must say its difficult to hold back seeing other people enjoying what I have also wanted to do for as long as I can remember, but I have to be sensible and seeing how much debt he left with, and knowing that (according to him) less than half of his course have found paid flying gigs, it just does not seem like a viable path to go down now.

I am very close to the end of a (long protracted) PPL, the dilemma I face is do I forget about commercial flight training and try to forge out a career in something else (being 28 now), or do I keep on aiming too high for myself? I dont expect anyone to answer that, it is a rhetorical question, but Im sure there are others on here in the same position. Clearly I will continue to fly for fun, (its a great thing to have on the CV too!), and the fun of it is why I started in the first place, plus the great people you meet involved in aviation. I just cant help thinking that spending any money, be it modular or intergrated, is the equivalent of piling it all in the garden and setting fire to it.

How I long for the days where you had to work your way up through instructing/general GA jobs, and only those few good enough to get on the mentored (sponsored) schemes got straight into the RHS of a jet...

Sorry for the ramble, I dont tend to post on these threads but I have been keeping an eye on them on a daily basis, for years, and I must thank all of the regulars (WWW, Bealzibub et al) for their rather excellent insight into the industry that you would not necessarily get elsewhere.

[Bealzebub]

Most of the pilots I speak to at work who have come through Oxford/CTC all say the same thing - "I regret it". Many have said how if they had to do it all again they'd go modular. CTC have a nickname given to them by their students which is Criminal Thieving :mad: - surely that says it all?The fact that they "at work" certainly says something. However I am not sure the nickname really does. Initials do have a tendancy to lend themselves to overstated humour. I have been flying with cadets from these programmes for nearly 15 years now and have yet to meet one who has expressed any regret for the training choice they made. In fact most if not all seem to recognise the opportunity they have been afforded as very low hour pilots in gaining this type of opportunity.

A significant and growing number of airline companies have recognised the cost savings and flexibility that these cadet programmes afford them, and as they emerge from recession (to whatever degree,) these programmes are only likely to expand. A lot of investment has been made in recent years to provide for an increase in capacity and business. Take a look at the investment companies such as Flybe in Exeter are making in training facilities.

The idea that there will be a flood of opportunities so overwhelming that these organisations cannot cope with demand, is certainly one that they would rub their hands in glee at the anticipation of, but it is very unlikely to happen in reality.

A rapid expansion in growth generally, would simply introduce additional demand into the overall pilot market. That demand would be supplied by much the same sources as it always has been: experienced pilots looking to change jobs; military pilots; and career advancement pilots with sufficient levels of experience.

At the 250 hour level, the only changes likely based on current trends, projections, and even the most optimistic forecasts, are through these cadet schemes, simply because at this level of experience, and for airline flying, these are cadet opportunities. Outside of these schemes, the best opportunities are likely to be afforded to those who graduate themselves into the "career advancement" category by obtaining the levels of experience traditionally required by airlines looking for recruits who meet those minimum levels or better.

Your time will come, and when it does you'll have less debt then those who took the other path - and probably a better job/contract because they've all taken the crap offers from easyJet/Ryanair. When the airlines get desperate again they'll have to offer better pay and who knows maybe a free type rating! What this blindly fails to recognise, is that those who have found airline employment on the types of contracts you mention, will have elevated themselves into the "career advancement" and "job changer" category. Not only that, but they will do so with significant levels of relevant experience, that would make them very attractive in the "overwhelming" scenario you suggest.


There are certainly going to be opportunities in the future. The industry has evolved and will continue to do so. People embarking on training courses now will need to work hard, and chase whatever opportunities at whatever level may be there to be sought out. For most it will be an arduous and very frustrating climb. Some will succeed, some will fail and some will make significant levels of compromise. Why? Because it has always been like that. The idea that yesterdays 2000 hour "self improver" is todays 250 hour "modular" wannabe, is a fallacy.

I actually don't care whether anybody believes this, agrees or disagrees. I would simply say open your eyes and look at what is actually happening in the real world. The company I work for is taking on around 20 pilots this year and the mix is half from the "experienced" pilot market, and half from an integrated training provider. Any further expansion next year is likely to see similar fractions from the same sources.

Student 88, look at your own employer. Low hour cadets from an integrated training provider. Expansion into even lower hour cadets from another integrated training provider. Experienced pilots from the career change/advancement categories.

These cadets metamorphorsize from "cadets" into the other categories within 24 months normally, and there is no shortage of new cadets coming up to take their place. The "our time will come" speech is all very rousing, but based on what I have seen for the last 35 years, or what I see now, meaningless.

For most people who cannot obtain a "fast track" airline opportunity, they will need to work hard to achieve qualification in one of the experienced pilot categories. Make no mistake, some will.

My perspective is that I am sitting in the top branches of a very tall tree. It is pleasant, leafy and comfortable from this vantage point. I have grown up with this tree, and it now affords a good view of the surrounding forest. I have seen quite a few of the seasonal cycles, some great summers and a few memorably stormy winters. In recent years there have been some quite disturbing trends as Irishmen with chainsaws and bulldozers have moved into the forest. Even the tree I live in has lost a lot of fruit, as its branches have been aggresively cut off in husbandry designed to ensure survival, as the new fast growing saplings have shot up and multiplied. The reality is that the forest may well expand, but not with these lovely oaks, only with the more productive, aggressive, fast climbing trees. To survive in this forest, you need to recognise and adapt to what is happening or you will end up as compost.

[student88]

Point taken. So are you saying that the only way in is through an £80K integrated course?

[Jugs08]

I agreed with Beazle; no he's saying you need to be flexible. Not have this mentaility a Fatpl = airline opportunity. You have to be prepared to take any road there as not all are open for everybody.

[clanger32]

S88,
No I don't think for a moment that is what beazlebub is saying. I think he's telling you that if that's what you want, integrated may offer you the best chance of achieving that off the bat. What (s)he's telling you is that if you go the modular route, you may have to spend some years building time by bush flying or para dropping until you become "validated" for airline employment by your total time. In short I think you're being told " do not expect to come out and find that you have exactly the same opportunities as an integrated student. Thats not saying your opportunities will be better or worse, nut recognise they will be different. If you recognise this up front, then you have a better chance of not being crestfallen with your choice downstream- whatever choice you made.

[Desert Strip Basher]

I think Clanger pulls it together well there. Sometimes I read Bealzebubs comments and wonder if he's affiliated in any way with an integrated scheme (I'm sure that's not the case however). Tempered with Clangers response I think overall it's quite balanced.

I have to re-stress that in my view integrated training is a risk only worth taking when it's subject to prior selection for a cadet scheme (whether that's Flybe/Thomas Cook as now, Netjets of old etc). That is a subtle difference though I think in agreement with what Bealzebub says. The rich kids can take their chances, but I can't respect them and it's their sort competing against one another to pay for TR, line training and hours on line after non competitive selection that are bringing the industry down for all.

[Christian A]

@Bealzebub,

Brilliant argument and on the whole I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.

For me, firstly I had time on my hands being 21 at the moment. Secondly, the fun I had during my training (especially hour building) I wouldn't change for the world - something the integrated boys never experience (I'm sure there are some who have however but it is more regimented training). Thirdly, I always wanted more: In terms of flying, I always new that I wanted to Instruct for a good few years first because I love teaching. Therefore Integrated would have been of no benefit to me. (The Flight School I instruct at btw has just lost four instructors to BMI regional, all of whom were year above me on my degree on modular training and the Cabair integrated applicants I know with first time passes that arn't FI's gor rejected - goes to show). Finally, I have always wanted more than just flying as well: I would like to go into Management, maybe push for CEO in the future. This is why I came to Cranfield to do my MSc in ATM. If nothing else, it's nice to have a back up and not solely be qualified to fly.

Maybe you're right, not EVERYONE will make it! But, air travel is forecasted to double by 2020 (don't mention the F word, had a nightmare finishing my Forecasting module last week), and things are looking up. I'm most certainly in no rush.

In sum, I think that there are horses for courses. Both have pros and cons. Just be aware of what your getting into!

[pilotmike]

Christian A said:I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.

That would be a good argument if it were true that integrated training is faster. However the opposite is true. Going integrated, you go at ONE pace. Going modular, you go at YOUR pace, which CAN be much faster.

What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

pilotmike:
I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated. Because doing the integrated one is basically a full time school. You have no time for work etc...

[pilotmike]

Johnny Bekkestad:I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated
Whether you agree or not, the fact is training modular can be done more quickly than integrated.

Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course, which proves my point. Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

Pilotmike
I did ppl in 30 days, multi engine in 12 days, instrument rating 40 days, 100 hours time building in 14 days as i flew across the US twice and i did my cpl in 10 days. I did everything on minimums while getting a degree in aviation science.

[pilotmike]

Hey, put your 'Johnny' away, this isn't a willy-waving contest.

I simply dispute bold yet false assertions that 'integrated is faster than modular', which you support with your comment 'I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated'.

Your argument is gloriously muddled, especially given your claim to have gone from ab initio to CPL/IR in just 106 days!!

Well done! Without doubt you are the biggest Johnny, but with such bold claims you've spectacularly lost your own argument that integrated is faster - exactly proving my point...!:ugh:

[captain.weird]

@Johnny: @Embry Riddle I suppose? You did your training very fast for what I've read. But how did you do the theory then??