Questions for the UK

[gerxard]

Hi there,

I am flying as a F/O on a corporate jet, sometimes our trips take us to the UK. I would like to ask you some questions:

* on many airports (eg Luton) the controller doesn't say "cleared ILS rwy XX", just "descend with the glide". Is this some special procedure? Sometimes we are only cleared for the localizer and have to ask for the glide...

* ATIS says "report aircraft type on first contact" - first contact with which station?

* after T/O in many smaller airports we are asked "what services do you request"? - what are our choices? what else than full ATC service?

* Northolt offered to chose between PAR and SRE approach - what the hell is the difference?

Sorry guys, I know I would find some answers in the AIP but we are not familiar with these things on the continent.

... and why are there 2 separate faucets for hot and cold water in the bathrooms? ;-)

thank you
gerxard

[hollingworthp]

Regarding smaller airfields - these are in uncontrolled airspace and there are a new set of different levels of radar service available. Generally we ask for "the best you have" which is a bit lazy but ATC seem to be understanding.

For a detailed explanation, go here: http://www.takeflightaviation.co.uk/documents/AirTrafficServicesoutsidecontrolledairspace.pdf

I have my own answers for your other questions but I suspect others will be able to give more accurate / definitive answers so I will leave that to them.

Regarding separate taps - to actually get hot water in the UK is a bonus, so don't complain if it comes out of a separate tap ;)

[Garba51]

Gerxard,

what Hollingworthp gave you was correct last year (untill March 2009). However, there have been some changes (no more RAS, FIS and RIS) it's all called Basic, Traffic and Advisory Services. Don't know why they changed them. But you should find out everything on the UK CAA CAP 413 (radiotelephony).

Good luck!

Garba

[Hansard]

It's Basic Service, Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service.....and there's also Procedural Service. The best one for you in these circumstances is Deconfliction Service, if the Air Traffic Services Unit has radar and is capable of providing it.

PAR (military SRA) is a better service (more accurate guidance) than SRA.

[Chicken Leg]

I can understand how you might be confused by our differing levels of ATC service, but I find not knowing the difference between a PAR and an SRE (SRA) is baffling!

PAR: Precision Approach Radar. The controllers can see your azimuth and elevation on radar and will give correcting instructions to keep you on the 'glideslope' and 'localiser'.

Example: 'Right of the centerline, turn left 2 degrees heading 268 degrees. Slightly above the glideslope, correcting nicely'.

SRE: Surviellance Radar Equipment. The controller can see your position in azimuth, but not your elevation. They will give you correcting turns as above, and will offer information on what you height should be as you continue the approach.

Example: 'Left of the centreline, turn right 3 degrees heading 023 degrees. Height (or altitude) passing 1250 feet'. (This is the height/altitude you should be passing, not what you are actually at - remember, they can't see your elevation).

Given the option, take the PAR every time (unless you want the practice). As it's name suggests, the PAR is a precision approach and will often take you down to 200' AGL. The SRE is a Non Precision Approach and will be a higher minimum.

Regarding the ATC services available, PM me your email address and I will send you a power point presentation which describes the different services. It is not a formal document, but I have found it accurate.

[Garba51]

Thanks Hansard for correcting, I knew there was something missing :ok:


Garba.

[SilentHandover]

* on many airports (eg Luton) the controller doesn't say "cleared ILS rwy XX", just "descend with the glide". Is this some special procedure? Sometimes we are only cleared for the localizer and have to ask for the glide...

There have been many threads throughout PPRUNE on this subject. The basic reason for this is to stop aircraft descending to their minima earlier than with the glidepath. The phraseology you should hear is one of the following

Taken from CAP 493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1

"Turn left/right heading (three digits), report established on the localiser."

"Report established on the localiser, maintain (level)."

"Closing the localiser from the left/right; report established."

"Descend on the glidepath, QFE (pressure) [millibars]."

"Descend on the glidepath, QNH (pressure) [millibars], [elevation
(number) feet]."

"When established on the localiser, descend on the glidepath, QFE
(pressure) [millibars]/QNH (pressure) [millibars], [elevation (number)
feet]."

* ATIS says "report aircraft type on first contact" - first contact with which station?

When you listen to an airfields ATIS you should report what is requested on first contact with that airfield. For example you listen to "Farnborough Information" when transferred from London Control to Farnborough radar they will be expecting you to report your aircraft type.

* after T/O in many smaller airports we are asked "what services do you request"? - what are our choices? what else than full ATC service?

CAP 774: UK Flight Information Services | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=3174)

This is a link to the CAA's latest document about the services available to you outside of controlled airspace in the UK.

This is the most important thing to remember when operating to an airfield outside of controlled airspace in my opinion.

"Within Class F and G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance and terrain clearance, and they should consider service provision to be constrained by the unpredictable nature of this environment.
The Class F and G airspace environment is typified by the following:
• It is not mandatory for a pilot to be in receipt of an ATS; this generates an unknown traffic environment;
• Controller/FISO workload cannot be predicted;
• Pilots may make sudden manoeuvres, even when in receipt of an ATS. "

Others have covered the PAR/SRA's please be prepared for an SRA into Farnborough this summer once preparations for the airshow begin as there will be no ILS for nearly a month.

I hope this is of some use

SH

[potatowings]

You guys seem to have this all covered nicely.

The final question remains in my mind....

Why the hell does the UK not standardise it's procedures and RT with the rest of the world?

I'm a UK pilot and fly globally. The procedures are as non-standard, in my humble opinion, as those found in places like Russia.

Maybe not the right place for the question, but still worth asking.

On a personal point, this is not a "dig" at anyone that provides the prescribed services. ATC and all the good people involved to a great job. This is however a "dig" at the policy makers.

Please please please standardise with at least the rest of Europe!

[smallfry]

mmm, because the ATC in Mainland Europe is so good? I have not felt that I wish Spanish / French or Italian ATC on UK!
How many times have you been left high and dry by certain controllers in certain 'southern states' ?

German, Dutch, Scandinavian maybe...

The system in UK is not perfect, but it does work pretty well.

[jimworcs]

Yeah, but what about the important question. Why the hell do we have separate taps? I just bought a brand new house and have to replace 12 taps to convert them to mixers.. what is the point?

[potatowings]

The Taps issue is probably more important.

I get no end of complaints about that from my Non-UK counterparts. They do hark on about it. Maybe that's more of a CRM issue than ATC procedures.

Lets lobby the government to change the taps to all mixer so that I don't have to hear one more complaint :}

[Checkboard]

The ILS thing is a pain. :mad: The UK position is that the ILS approach charts are designed with respect to terrain, but not airspace. This results in, say, a level ("platform") segment of, say, 2000 feet, running into the ILS glideslope.

The problem is that there may be a VFR corridor in that piece of airspace, crossing at 90º underneath the ILS. The UK are concerned that, if they say "Descend to 3000', cleared ILS" that the pilot will descend to 3000', intercept the localiser, look at the chart (with a 2000' platform) and descend to 2000' to fly level before then intercepting the glide slope! This interpretation of what an insane pilot might do, would mean that they might descend into un-notified crossing VFR traffic at 2000' :hmm:

That is why it takes twenty radio calls to intercept an ILS in the UK. :ugh:

[Empty Cruise]

Checkboard,

No longer - clearance can now be given as follows: "When established localiser - descend on the glidepath". This one - incidentally - came around the same time that the new ATS service levels were introduced.

For those not used o flying in UK airspace, it could be worth looking at Home - NATS (http://www.nats.co.uk) and getting the low-down on what the service levels actually give you.

[7xXx]

Good ATc for sure in the Uk, they are the radar masters no doubts...but for the rest ..(weather,food,wine & girls:yuk: and re :yuk:) I stay in the "southern states" periot !

[His dudeness]

There is a nice online (also downloadable) CBT for the service thing.

Air Space Safety: ATSOCAS 917 (http://www.airspacesafety.com/content/ATSOCAS.asp)

[Tinstaafl]

Separate hot & cold taps: Historically the UK didn't use mains pressure hot water systems. Instead they used boilers that fed a header tank causing the hot water to be at lower pressure than the cold supply. If the two systems were joined, such as happens in the plumbing behind a single outlet, when some mix of hot & cold is selected then the lower pressure cold can feed into the hot pipes.

Even a single outlet in the UK isn't really: Inside the faucet are segregated hot & cold supplies that independently supply the exit point- which is where the two streams finally meet.

Of course a place might have been modernised and gained pressurised hot water & mixing faucets.

[eyeinthesky]

Firstly, if we're talking about the UK, let's get rid of the Americanisms: they are TAPS, not FAUCETS:yuk:

You are requested to report the ATIS information to the Approach function at the airfield. Often this is indicated on the JEPPS/AERADS as Approach or Approach Radar or Director.

At those airfield where there is a local ZONE control (e.g. Jersey Zone) you usually wait until the next function (Approach) before passing the information but sometimes they have the positions combined, so you can't win!!

Do not pass 'Boeing 767 with information Lima' on first contact with London Control even if you have picked up the ATIS whilst still over France!!

[Tinstaafl]

I was trying to distinguish between the valve control bit with the knob or lever - a 'tap' to me - and the spout bit where the water comes out. Admittedly I tend to use the terms somewhat interchangeably.

[Bona Fide]

Two taps highlight our quaint British tendency to embrace outmoded traditional practices instead of embracing modern effective ones to overcome simple problems.:O

Let's face it, two taps are wasteful, unhygienic and a pain in the :mad: to use. But this matters not because it is traditional! It's something that the Victorians used to do (and they were really great!) and nevermind that everybody else realised more than a 100 years ago (even the French) that the arrangement was crap and a more workable solution was required to washing your hands after having a :mad:.

Next time one of your British friends tries to shake your hand, politely ask him or her if they washed theirs after last taking a dump or decided against the third degree burns required to do so... :oh::)

[potatowings]

Problem solved, I use an alcohol free, moisturizing hand sanitizer. It kills 99.8% of germs and leaves my hands soft and smooth. No more trips to hospital with burnt hands for me :ok:

[HS125]

SERIOUS POINT:

Dont forget the correct phraseology when transferring to the first frequency after departure, i.e:

1. Callsign of station adressed
2. Your Callsign
3. Passing Altitude
4. Cleared Altitude (or Level)
5. SID Designation (or alternative instruction e.g. Rwy hdg)

AFAIK That used to be audited as to how many departures complied.

OTHER POINT.

Under british engineering terminology, I believe the term for a valve through which a liquid flows is a COCK.

Shakes *clean* hands

Jeff

[Global Warrior]

Its called the erosion of the English language. Thank fully the authorities are on top of it and will be issuing the necessary amendments shortly and they go something like this;

I got the A I P to educate me
'bout what to expect from the British A T C

Even the aviation industry has to be politically correct so a new aviation phraseology book is being released. For example, where as the currently accepted reply to ATC saying

"G-ABCD contact 124.7" is generally regarded as being "Golf Alpha Brave Charlie Delta contact One Two One Deycimal Se-ven",

its now accepted that in order to be politically correct "twenny for sevn....wikid innit" is acceptable also.



ok.... listen up ya' all


* on many airports (eg Luton) the controller doesn't say "cleared ILS rwy XX", just "descend with the glide". Is this some special procedure? Sometimes we are only cleared for the localizer and have to ask for the glide.
..
The new translation for that is presented herewith......

Descend wiv da Glide
I is by your side
Lookin out for ya hide
enjoy da ride

* ATIS says "report aircraft type on first contact" - first contact with which station?

Its now accepted that this is a suitable reply............

we is a wiked jet innit

* after T/O in many smaller airports we are asked "what services do you request"? - what are our choices? what else than full ATC service?

Its widely known that ATC are there to help us, obviously ordering a Cheeseburger and a Coke is impractical but they can make phone calls for you and again the following request does not phase our controllers..........

slap up ma bitch and tell er i is comin
im gonna be der wiv ma motors runnin
She needs to be ready cause i is on heat
and i is packin a serious chunk of meat

* Northolt offered to chose between PAR and SRE approach - what the hell is the difference?

Its imperative that our European friends understand how we do things in the UK and so, when flying in to UK Military airfields, Pilots will be asked the type of approach they wish to fly. The new AIP will distinguish the options like so...............

First the PAR

U get a P A R from da R A F
u better listen up and not be deaf
left a lil, right a lil up and down
this mofo gonner get us on da grown

Next the SRA

I was in ma shiny jet the ovver day
When this ATC dude offers an S R A
but If ya dont get down ya fly all day
Thats B*****t man and really freakin gay

So if you want to be Gay, fly and SRA
If you want to get to your car, fly a PAR

and why are there 2 separate faucets for hot and cold water in the bathrooms? ;-)

Apparently, even this has an aviation background.......

We got two taps in case 1 of dem fail
i still got da water to wash mi tail
Its come from aviation, its called redundancy
its der for protection of you and me

But personally, i thinks its because we want to give the french, two opportunities to wash!!!!

[specialbrew]

Global.. you crack me up, thats so funny. Its nice to see some humour brought to a sometimes very boring forum...bro!

[keithskye]

Whew! I thought I was the only one that thought this about the UK!

[smallfry]

Global.. I vote that as the best post this year!
:ok:

[redsnail]

That is PPRuNe GOLD!

Funniest post I have seen for ages. :ok: