American to furlough as many as 175 pilots

[bumba]

... who said the economic crisis is over!

ATW Daily News (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=19147)

[mustafagander]

Nobody I know.

What is being said is that the trend is upward, not down as before. There's a long way to go to full recovery yet.

[stilton]

Are they not in negotiations ?

[doodahdave]

Yeah, American is still in negotiations and will be for the foreseeable future.

But this furlough is not just due the recent fourth quarter loss, but possibly in response to an American Eagle arbitration judgment.

Recently an arbitrator decided that when American recalled furloughed TWA pilots (in 2007), that American Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers should have been moved up first. His justification? TWA pilots who had been furloughed before attending American integration training were "new-hires" and therefore triggered American Eagle flow-ups to American. Never mind that the TWA pilots in question had started employment with TWA in 1988.

The announced furlough will re-furlough TWA pilots up to the AA staple point - April 1989 hires - of which I am included.

My tale of woe: Hired by TWA 1989, MD80 Captain in 2000, TWA bought by American in 2001, furloughed 2003, recalled 2008 and possibly re-furloughed 2010.:ok:

[doodahdave]

Another contributing factor is the lack of retirements at American. The Age 65 retirement change has slowed down retirements dramatically. That coupled with the stock market decrease has kept AA pilots from retiring.

And since American never went through bankruptcy, the "A" and "B" plans are still intact and American never saw the massive retirements that UA, DL, NW, and CO had when everyone who could, took their lump-sum distributions and retired.

So last I heard, American had over 300 Age 60 + pilots still flying, with over 70 of them in the St. Louis domicile alone. These former TWA pilots are trying to recover from the looting of our original retirement fund by corporate raider - Carl Icahn.

Back to job hunting!

Anybody need a MD80 F/O with B747/757/767 type ratings?

Didn't think so.

[MD83FO]

Qatar Airways, emirates, etihad, gulf air, fly dubai, jazeera, saudi arabian.

[doodahdave]

Thanks! Those are great suggestions. I appreciate it.:ok:

Dave

[Bus Junkie]

Sorry to hear it Dave. A number of our xTWA guys took the AA recall. Others are still waiting. All really good guys.

[stilton]

DDdave,


Sorry to hear that and wish you the best of luck , with your experience you should find a slot, especially if you are willing to live elsewhere.

[411A]

AA is shooting themselves in the foot...again.
I normally position to the middle east once a month, and 'usually' it was AA thru ORD to several European destinations.
Opps...greatly reduced flights...now my business goes to DL/AF/LH.
Business class.

[Ndicho Moja]

What a sorry excuse for an industry we are all in.

Good luck to all who are facing uncertain times, again.

[bumba]

yes ... what's going on? It seems all the Major are not able to build revenues?

[bumba]

That's what I've heard ... and do you think there wont be more furlough?:}

[Huck]

It's hard to escape the conclusion that there are too many airline seats chasing too few passengers.

On the other hand, I commute overseas once a month and every flight, EVERY flight, is full.

[doodahdave]

Actually last message from American showed our highest load factor ever - over 80%.

The problem is the yields, with business cutting back, business class passengers are few and far between. So the US airlines tack on baggage fees, fuel surcharges, etc., to make up for the loss of revenue.

But the flights are full.

Dave

[bumba]

It looks like in the attempt to chase passengers the Major forgot how to make money! And the low cost policy seems a winning strategy! Interesting, really interesting especially for pilots looking for a job!:ugh:

[KC135777]

yeah, big loss! it's all smoke & mirrors. :yuk:

...Yet AMR finished the year with $1.3 Billion more in its pockets and 300 Million less in debt.

How can you pay down your house, have more money; and tell me you LOST money??

accounting tricks of the rich and famous.....

Whether or not the arbitrator forces the flow thru AE pilots immediately is unknown... the furloughs are the typical hostages/pawns in our contract negotiations.

KC135777

[A. Le Rhone]

Good news! If the airline is considering furloughs then the industry is about to boom. The always get it 180 degrees wrong so be prepared for pilot shortages very soon.

All the flights I fly on are full too. But still the managers cry "Yields" and claim to be making no profit. Well that means their yield-management is lacking. They aren't doing their jobs properly. Bring back Jaun Trippe!

[Carnage Matey!]

The problem with yield management in a downturn is it doesn't really work if your competitors don't play ball too.

[Bluestar51]

accounting tricks of the rich and famous.....



They may be paper loses, but eventually you have to pay for those paper loses. Layoffs in this industry is why I spent my off time working on my MA/Phd.

BS

[Groundloop]

The problem with yield management in a downturn is it doesn't really work if your competitors don't play ball too.

The problem with yield management is that it is the wrong solution. It is REVENUE management that is important.

[tsgas]

The real problem is "DEREGULATION".
Pax have been spoiled with the cuthroat fares that airlines used to run each other out of business and they now resist any fare increases.
The airline employees have had to pay for this folly.

[bumba]

the airline world needs a Steve Jobs! that's it! that's the solution to our problems!

Steve Jobs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_jobs)

[20driver]

As Elizabeth Taylor once said, "If someone is stupid enough to offer me a million dollars to make a movie, I am not stupid enough to say no."
If low fares are on offer, passengers will take them. It may surprise some as here but airlines are not in business to provide (high paying) jobs to employees. They are in business to make money. (something very few do)
What seems to elude so many pilots is you want good cash, work for someone ,Southwest, UPS, FEDEX, who makes money.
Do you think that customers will shell over extra so you can make more money?
Regulation is not coming back as there are more passengers who vote than airline employees.
AS someone else on here likes to say, "Them's the facts"
20driver

[TeachMe]

As SLF on mostly long haul flights I am more than willing to pay more for a flight when it means that the crew and other employees are happy, when it means the airline is safer and planes better maintained, and when the my on board experience is more relaxing.

What really gets my goat is all the pricing games played by airlines. A few years ago I read an analogy of airline pricing vs. painting a house. That exemplifies what I mean.

What I really want is for airlines to figure out how much it costs to do a flight safely and responsibly (fair pay etc.), divide it by the number of seats, add 10% profit and charge me that. Not all SLF are so blind as to only take the cheapest price and expect prices below cost, but many of us want game free pricing.

[RAWLAW]

Deregulation??? Smoke and Mirrors?? All talk we had as Eastern pilots 20 years ago. But then there was greed within ALPA to take our jobs, routes, and equipment. When a group fails to maintain cohesiveness in times of uncertainty and upheaval you end up facing the consequences at a later time down the road.

[lpokijuhyt]

The nice thing with so many furloughs, is that there may be overtime flights for the pilots who didnt get furloughed when management finds themselves short-staffed on occasion! :ok:

[Maxfli]

I doubt that is of much comfort to those pilots who have been / are being / will be furloughed.

[merlinxx]

I just love the way you folks hide "being out of bloody work" I just got furloughed:ugh: Y'all got let go, your out of work, and you don't have ALPA guarantees of recall:ugh: Be honest with yourselves, I've worked with folks who've been laid off 2, 3 and in one case 4 times by a US Flag Carrier:{

I'm not criticising (English, English spelling), just commenting from past observations going back to the 1970s.

Good luck folks, I wish you all the best:ok:

[Roadtrip]

AA management is trying to scare the pilots and other employee groups. Everyone has contracts in talks right now and all the big-bonus execs want more and more concessions from everybody. ALL employee groups are po'd and see that strikes are inevitable.

Unless AMR puts in a new leadership team at AA, the airline is on the fast track to BK.

[rottenray]

20driver writes:
As Elizabeth Taylor once said, "If someone is stupid enough to offer me a million dollars to make a movie, I am not stupid enough to say no."
If low fares are on offer, passengers will take them. It may surprise some as here but airlines are not in business to provide (high paying) jobs to employees. They are in business to make money. (something very few do)Spot on.

We've seen the shift in priority due to deregulation - carriers were once very interested in differentiating themselves on several levels. Pay and prestige to attract the best employees, which they relied upon to create the best customer experience.

Then, having those customers create sales through hearty personal endorsements.


Now we have a market driven by the lowest common denominator - the idiot who is willing to be treated like livestock to save a few bucks.

Troubling is the fact that one only needs to read the news to realize that many of the buffoons clogging airports don't have any business being in public.

Something which has been mentioned in many threads here is the "ever-declining ability and trustworthyness" of airline pilots. (Don't go searching for that exact quote, it's a synthetic of many posts. And don't go flaming until you read all of this post.)

One thing I'd like to mention from my point of view - I am usually in F - is that the quality of pax has been declining as well. We always had the odd college student heading for spring break or the squalling baby. But now there are just so many f*cking idiots and cretins waiting to show the very worst behavior.


My thoughts are with the AA folks, I hope things work out for the best for you.

RR

[617SquadronDB]

What a joke. AA furloughs when loads are 80%. Jeez.

And whoever said ex-TWA pilots weren't AA pilots? What a load of bollox.

Curious if AA pilot union is resisting?

[Huck]

That's nothing. UPS had a fourth quarter profit of 750 million, and they're furloughing....

[Pugilistic Animus]

Bring back Jaun Trippe!

then there'd only be one airline,...'cuz the new style blood sucking managers would be put outta the business:suspect:


:(

[Desert Diner]

What a joke. AA furloughs when loads are 80%. Jeez.


Just over 20 years ago AA realized they weren't making money on short haul flights, hence the birth of Eagle.

Now they think that also applies to most midsized cities.

It's not about loads, its about routes.

[aa777phil]

All furloughs have been rescinded as of about 10 March.

[flyingchanges]

Only the April furloughs were rescinded, the March 1 group remains on the street.

Mike

[StbdD]

Not to mention the 1887 AA pilots who have been on furlough for up to 8 years and 165 days as of this posting....