Pilot Fatigue

[Rice Pudding]

Has anyone had the unpleasant experience of operating some of the 3 sector 12 hour regional patterns with no break ?

There are a couple on the roster now that involve a 12 hour 30 min duty, during which time there is no provision for crews to have even a 15 min break - i.e. they are either flying or doing paperwork/aircraft setup for the entire duty, even eating at the controls, with no break for more than 12 hours. The only time you leave the flightdeck is for "Physiological reasons", or a pre-flight walk-around check.

Many longer flights have limitations of 8 hours at the controls before a minimum relief break, but the regional flights somehow don't have this protection.

CAD have been informed several times now, but so far have taken the attitude that the duty is legal because it falls within the Flight Time Limitations (which they approve).

What will it take for someone to apply some common sense to this ?

[fire wall]

Rice Pudding, with due respect to you but nothing is going to be done about these and other patterns until pilots (that is Captains AND First Officers) submit ASR's on specific patterns and notify the JRC to that effect.
Until crews get over their reticence to submit paper work then you may as well piss into the wind.

[Dan Winterland]

We've been doing these in KA for about 20 years or so. I do have an opinion on them, but I'm just too knackered to comment right now.






I wonder where CX got the idea from?

[Rice Pudding]

You would think that with the stated emphasis on safety they would pay it at least a little more than lip service.

Even factory workers have a break during the day.

[Winglet23]

Several of these rostered patterns have been the subject of many ASRs, and MORs. When an MOR is filed, CAD are notified, so they are well aware of the situation, and it is causing the company alot of grief.

But so far the response from CAD has been to attempt to cover themselves by accusing some aircrew of operating while fatigued !

Rice Pudding is correct that as long as the duty falls within the FTLs then no rules have technically been broken.

Tread carefully with this. Fatigue is a subject that is rarely mentioned in accident reports, and flies in the face of productivity. It is far easier to make an example of an individual for alledgedly operating while fatigued than to fix the problem and reduce productivity.

[Mr. Bloggs]

When you sign in, work out your duty day. If you are delayed on the last sector and cannot make it to the last destination with the time allotted, STOP. You are too fatigued. Go to the hotel.:ok:

If you have an incident, do you think CX will protect you while operating into discretion? You will be the scapegoat.:eek:

Now that you have stranded a planeload of passengers, the roster will change. Until this happens, expect the status quo. No amount of ASR/MOR’s will change this until an aircraft is parked. Shame it has to be this way but that is whom we work for.:{

Until this happens, expect many regional patterns to be rostered within minutes of the duty day limit. :*

[Toruk Macto]

Or expect these patterns to go to KA as they have been doing them for 20 yrs!

[Winglet23]

I've often thought it odd that they have a flight time limitation, but we are allowed to exceed it, and do so on a regular basis. Just by asking the crew.

Imagine if we were allowed to exceed, say, aircraft limitations, or annual leave. Yet as soon as flight crew draw their concerns to the attention of CAD, the flight crew themselves are made a scapegoat.

There's some serious butt covering going on there.

[The Wraith]

Winglet 23, that is a VERY good point!
Next time I am asked to go into discretion I will raise that very same question!!!:ok:

[The Wraith]

awwww...solly...cannot...solly, does not compute....awwwwww...syntax ellorrr!!!:E

[monster330]

COULDN'T AGREE MORE

Too many looking at the small picture and screwing each other...when will it stop:zzz:

[Hellenic aviator]

I recall a similar incident where a crew were rostered HKG-SIN-BKK-HKG all in one day. Weather was fine ex HKG, however forecast for arrival into SIN was TSRA etc.

When they landed, the flight to BKK was delayed due to heavy rains and waiting for the TS to dissipate. They were airborne approximately an hour later, and on their way to BKK, the Capt. decided he wasn't going to complete the BKK-HKG sector by going into discretion.
The F/O supported the Captain's decision, so upon arrival into BKK, the Capt. informed the gate staff that he wanted all the pax onboard and seated, cargo doors closed by a certain time otherwise he wasn't pushing back.

Sure enough, in the typical relaxed manner of the BKK staff, they boarded the flight leisurely...

When the time given by the Capt. expired, he and the F/O packed their bags, asked the passengers (via the ground staff) to disembark once again, as the crew were done for the day.

I was operating a HKG-BKK flight (overnight) later that afternoon, and whilst over Vietnam, we received an ACARS message from Crew Control that our duty had changed and we were now swapping aircraft to fly back these disrupted pax. No big deal - we landed, and swapped planes....mind you, first time I ever saw the ground staff telling me to hurry up as they were 'running with their heads cut off'.

A few days later I spoke with the Capt. who made his decision not to go into discretion and asked him if he was called to the 3rd Floor for tea and scones - his reply was 'No'. Nobody questioned his decision.

Now, in light of all this, I'll admit, I have been a bit laxed in rereading Vol.1, however I heard from another cohort that Discretion is now something that the Company can ask the Captain to undertake whereas in the past they (The Company) could not 'suggest' it - only the Capt. could.
If this is truly the case, I guess your 'protection' on a recorded line is that you use the words "fatigued" and refuse to continue "in the interest of safety", but be prepared to explain yourself on the 3rd Floor.

[PAPI-74]

Hellenic aviator,

You have hit the nail on the head. I have been almost told to go into discretion on several occasions, not been give a day room on a 7hr split and been told that I am not fatigued when I felt sick with tiredness and clearly was.
I fully realise that there are commercial pressures, but we are not machines and as has been mentioned - always the butt of the blame culture when it goes tits-up.

[Zapatas Blood]

"during which time there is no provision for crews to have even a 15 min break"

"even eating at the controls"

Boy, you CX guys are precious little flowers arent you.

At first I thought this opening post was tongue in cheek but you guys are serious!!!! Holy moly batman.

How would you survive a 5 sector day, 4 day pattern along the east coast of the US in winter with de ice on every departure, NO FOOD served onboard at all and the FO sprinting to mcdonalds during 30 min turns.

Boy, its tough at CX.

[fire wall]

Zapatas Blood, cx is not a low cost carrier. Given your description of an "East Coast day" perhaps your's is. Would you have us come down to your level of conditions or would you prefer your conditions to be improved to that enjoyed by others. Is this not why most aspire to the majors in the States? We have all done our apprenticeship of "Easy Coast "days to get here, is it not incumbent of us to see that those conditions are still here when your time comes?

At present our conditions (both policy and contractual) are under attack, some of it in areas that we believe has safety implications. In this I do not talk of menial items of discontent like meal breaks etc but, by way of example, proposed changes to FDP limits for Ultra Long Haul ops over multiple time zones with reduction to our layovers / rest / number of crew / quality of accomodation etc. It would be wrong of us to idly stand by and see those conditions eroded without raising a voice.
You quote an arduous 5 day pattern. Perhaps you could ask yourself how you would deal with a HKG JFK HKG with rest periods that have you reporting for the last sector in a "comfortably numb" state of consciousness with the deicing and taxiing debarcle that is so often the case in NY. Conversely try a six day pattern HKG ANC DFW ATL DFW ANC HKG with lip service being paid to physiological rostering.

A rising tide raises all ships. The opposite also holds true.

[Steve the Pirate]

We used to dream of 5 sector days....

ZB. You're either missing the point completely or your post is a wind-up. Most airlines these days say they put safety first and so the increasing trend to reduce protections provided by Flight Time Limitations sort of flies in the face of that part of the "mission statement".

How pilots from one airline would cope with the operational challenges of another has got nothing to do with improving the safety of our industry. That, surely, is the point of discussing subjects such as fatigue on forums like this.

Right, must dash, off to start my 30 sector day and my toast has gone cold damn it - that's all I'll get 'til my two pieces of cold gravel.....

STP

[The Messiah]

Yeah I fail to see the point in comparing who has it the worst.:ugh:

[Obama57]

I would not surprised if ZB did in fact work for a major in the US. Just because your airline is late to the game of "race to the bottom" doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It's just a matter of when, sadly.

[Zapatas Blood]

“even eating at the controls, with no break for more than 12 hours.”

You mean like on these patterns described by Hellenic - HKG-SIN-BKK-HKG?

Holy crap, how many ECAMS/EICAS situations are guys dealing with in the cruise on a 2-hour sector that you cant pull out a Sports Illustrated and munch on fine CX catering?

“Zapatas Blood, cx is not a low cost carrier. Given your description of an "East Coast day" perhaps your's is.”

Was? Nope, used to fly for a full service rinky dink legacy outfit. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one.

“At present our conditions (both policy and contractual) are under attack.”

Really. And you don’t think that applies to nearly EVERY other airline pilot on the planet, most of whom are not paid the sort of dough you guys are to start with?

“Perhaps you could ask yourself how you would deal with a HKG JFK HKG)”

I would imagine it would be awful. But that’s not what was referred to by the opening post of this thread. It started with some schmuck bleating about how tiring a 6 hour 3 sector day would be.

Get a life you soft CX drivers. Don’t make me laugh.

[Air Profit]

Zapatas. Perhaps you could focus your energy in agitating against your OWN company to raise your conditions closer to ours. We have our own issues to deal with, and so do you. Worry about your issues...ok? :ugh:

[Five Green]

Zap:

Been there done that. If you stay on regional and never do red eyes then maybe your schedule is great compared to a mixed long haul red eye schedule.

My point is it is all relative. I have worked regional schedules long days 5 sectors, 14 hour duty day 5 days a week, and was never as tired as I am doing long haul, regional mix.

I cannot fathom why you would not sympathise with fatigue issues. Why would you not want to see the industry as a whole improve our safety margins by dealing with fatigue issues properly ? There have been numerous "east coast" accidents over the years where fatigue was not highlighted as a hole in the swiss cheese when it was probably one of the larger holes. So if you were serious about safety you would get on to the FAA and your pilot Union and change your work rules.

IMHO fatigue is the largest safety issue we face in aviation today.

If you think otherwise ZAP then you have not been in the game long enough.

Cheers

FG

[Steve the Pirate]

ZB

I still can't make up my mind about you but comments like:

Nope, used to fly for a full service rinky dink legacy outfiteither mean that you're out of the game completely or you've moved on to an outfit that's neither "rinky dink" nor "legacy". It strikes me that there are contributors to this thread who are far more qualified to comment on comparative fatigue issues than you because they have experienced both ends of the regional/long haul spectrum.

With a name like yours I would think that you either see yourself as a revolutionary, a Zapatista if you like (which I doubt), or as someone with poor old Emiliano's blood on his hands, like Guajardo, who lured Zapata to his death by pretending to be something that he wasn't. Which is it in your case - pilot or management?

Whatever, and not to be picky, but this thread started with some "schmuck" bleating about about how tiring a 12 hour 3 sector day would be, so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.

STP

[geh065]

Someone was telling me that a crew decided not to go into discretion. The captain was of course not queried and never heard from CC or management but that the F/O was called up for tea and biccies, the reasoning being that it is Commander's discretion and not F/O's discretion.

Sounds a bit suspect to me, even for our lot. Anyone heard similar?

[jonathon68]

The crew decided not to go into discretion?

No, it is Commanders discretion. He evaluates how well rested/capable his crew is to complete the duty, and then he makes his decision.. full stop. When he asks you at dispatch how "busy" you are at the moment, or what time zone you are on, that is the opportunity to tell him what to expect from you. Note, CX expects that you must turn up fit and rested for the rostered duty.

It is almost impossible for the Company to question the Commander on this decision. If anyone else from the crew is questioned, then their response should concentrate on this point, after calling the HKAOA.

[Zapatas Blood]

“I cannot fathom why you would not sympathise with fatigue issues.”

5 Green, again you are jumping onto arguments I have not made.

I agree that fatigue is a huge issue, it has been in every airline I have worked for. I did not imply in ANY of my comments that it was not.

Steve, mate, you’re a dill.

“so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.”

Mate, ahhh, what facts are you talking about. The main thrust of my post is not about fatigue, it never was. I am still laughing at this gem “they are either flying or doing paperwork/aircraft setup for the entire duty, even eating at the controls”

I just love the eating at the controls bit.

You’re an airline pilot, you spend your life sitting on your ass crapping on about how TT doesn’t know how to run an airline properly while eating as much food as the lovely ladies can bring you. Deal with it.

Aint it a scam, and they pay us too.

[SMOC]

ZB,

You're not reading the posts!

“so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.”

Mate, ahhh, what facts are you talking about.

He even underlined it for you!

Here's a hint

You wrote,

It started with some schmuck bleating about how tiring a 6 hour 3 sector day would be.

He wrote,

Whatever, and not to be picky, but this thread started with some "schmuck" bleating about about how tiring a 12 hour 3 sector day would be, so get your facts right before you come up with your next accusation as to how soft another airline's crews are.

All I can say is CX management would love you! :ugh:

[Steve the Pirate]

ZB

Fair enough, maybe the main thrust of your post wasn't about fatigue but only now have you come out and acknowledged its significance to the industry. Perhaps some of the examples quoted did make you laugh but there are many instances in the industry, not just at CX, where Flight Time Limitations are seen as targets rather than limits by those who construct rosters. Consecutive long days with minimum rest WILL have a long term effect on fatigue with the consequent impact on performance.

On the "You Scruffy Bu**ers" thread you said:

As a regular SLF with CX, can I just say that I (and anyone I have spoken too) dont give two hoots how you look. Jeans and tee shirts would be fine. Professionalism is NOT defined by how dapper you look.I agree but you'd better hope that the guys who're flying you aren't at the wrong end of a whole series of average rosters that have affected their fatigue level. I also agree with you when you say professionalism isn't defined by how dapper you look. However, one of the defining measures of professionalism is the ability to enter a debate on such an important topic in a positive manner without feeling the need to be derogatory to other contributors. If you have an opinion on fatigue issues facing you in your company then let's hear them and see how we, as a group of professional people, can present a cogent argument to the industry to mitigate any potential issues before they arise.

STP

PS. I haven't been called a dill since high school - thanks.

[Mullah Lite]

Guys, decorum.

Back to the big picture.

PBS aired this last night, the frontline investigation into the Colgan air accident.

FRONTLINE: flying cheap: watch the full program | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/?utm_campaign=homepage&utm_medium=proglist&utm_source=proglist)

Don't know how long it will be online for, for free, so hope you all catch it soon.