Pax Comment - Help Please from Boeing Drivers

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

Hi everyone,

I am a B737-800 low hours driver. Finished my line training end of last year in and now have about 350 hrs on type. Recently I was transferred to a new base. This particular airport has a major slope and is quite short at 1800mtrs. Since I've moved to this airport, my landings aint the best, theyve been firm. But in saying that, I've had no problems at all in any of my training or previous flights or landings.

I was coming in tonight (my leg) at night, crosswind 10-15kts or so. Full load (pretty much) onto the runway with upslope. Flap 40 landing, I landed a little long, and because of this i cut the power a bit early... and then I had a firm arrival! Used Autobrake Max then with max manual. Slowed to taxi speed around 900mtrs to go or a little less.

That was it, fleet pretty crap that it was ****e, but got over it fairly quickly. Then as the pax where disembarking one woman stook her head in the flighdeck door and said that I should be ashamed of my landing, how dare I dont apologise and I qoate "We dropped out of the sky" according to this lady. She continued to abuse me in front of other pax and the crew saying how much she paid for her tickets etc etc. I felt like a piece of crap, apologised and said nothing else.

To be honest chaps an chapesses... I feel very :mad: low. I mean, do people really think we do it on purpose? Any advice? Personally I am just going to try forget about it, but I am sitting here, livid. Thinking the :mad:... how dare she.

:(

Regards,
MRBH (Stressed)

[capt.cynical]

Chocolate , and good cry-that should do it. :ugh::(

[cortilla]

I had something similar to that when I had the same experience levels. My landings just went a little to pot for a wee while.

Anyway on this particular day it was relatively blustery but nothing scary but we were all shook around a bit. Then I disengaged the autopilot but was just that little bit behind the aircraft and spanked it in. Didn't really want to open the flight deck door afterwards because I knew people's fillings would have been rattled. Then one of the cabin crew comes in the f/d and tells me one of the pax is moaning about how he'd been a passanger for donkeys years and felt that was the most dangerous landing he'd ever experienced etc etc etc.

Anyways he got off and even the Pax behind him mouthed 'idiot' behind his back as they got off. I spoke to my captain about it and he said if he thought it was as bad as that he'd have put it in the tech log for a hard landing check but he didn't feel it warranted that. I spoke to our flight safety man it hadn't triggered any warnings so no problems. End of. I don't know what airline you fly for but in mine if you want to see anything you've done that you thought was dodgy then just email the flight safety man and you'll have the fdm trace within a day. One of the joys of working in an industry with a no blame culture.

It happens to everyone. At the end of the day they're passangers and dont have a clue what's really happening up front. Now if I make a hard landing I just say that mr Boeing wants a positive contact so who am I to argue with what mr Boeing wants.

[TURIN]

Advice given to me by my er, counsellor many years ago when I had described my bad day during a post coital cigarette/chat.

She said....






" :mad:'Em! :mad: 'Em All!!:ooh:

[Bealzebub]

Oh, just do what I have done for the last 30 years.

You keep a very straight face and explain that there were A family of ducklings or a baby deer or a fox and her baby cub on the runway, that you just managed to miss, but it did result in a slightly firmer touchdown than you planned for!

Within seconds you will have been transformed from villain to hero! Works just as well with passengers and cabin crew, and the sun still comes up in the morning! :)

[Tinstaafl]

"Do you remember what happened to the airliner that hit the birds in New York and lost all power? Would you have prefer I hit birds or land safely even if it would be a bit harder than normal but still within the aircraft limits?"

[fireflybob]

In the 1980s after a very long day landing at BHX on RW 33 with an on limit crosswind and a wet night, I thought I'd done quite a fine job at planting the machine safely on the ground at the right point and speed etc.

As I came out of the flight deck a lady who was disembarking said "Nice flight but I didn't think much of the landing". It was like being punched in the stomach and before I could say anything the No. 1 cabin crew said "Yes madam but do you think you could have done any better?" No more was said!

[parabellum]

Does the B737-800 have auto height call outs, say, 50', 30' 20' 10' etc?

When I did a conversion to a Boeing 747-400 the instructor said when the chips are down, crap weather, night etc. try and remember at 50' stop whatever you are doing, 30' retard the throttles, 10' gentle flare, I tried it and it worked, not perfect but acceptable, provided the ROD is reasonable.

With time on the aircraft you will develop a good technique so don't stress yourself, you are probably thinking too much about the runway length and slope. Aim for a stabilised approach to the numbers and don't forget the flare!

[framer]

There are two things you can do, 1/ let it get to you and as a result lose confidence which may result in slowing your rate of improvement.
2/ Think "glad I've got that shocker out of the way.....time to nail some landings on speed, on target."




you are probably thinking too much about the runway length and slope. Aim for a stabilised approach to the numbers

That could well be true, if the book says you will fit in with all factors etc then you will as long as you put it on the spot, pretend its 3000meters long and fly the correct speed on the correct path and bobs your uncle.

At the end of the day I think most jet drivers have done a shocker or two in their time. I know I have. It's just unfortunate for you that the pax mouthed off. Forget about him, he probably thinks he has lots of responsibility in his job at a bank or selling insurance.

[framer]

PS, for a lot of people (I am one) it took 1000hrs or so to feel like I really got the hang of the 73, so don't expect to nail it over-night.
Also, I probably wouldn't go retarding the thrust levers at 30ft as a matter of course, I'm sure Parrabellum didn't mean you to transfer 747 techniques onto the 73 but I just thought I'd mention it in case you took it literally and thumped it on again next flight!

[ab33t]

You will never satisfy everybody , fly the numbers forgot about sloping , if the numbers are right the landing will be 99% of the time

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

Thanks guys,

Some good advice. As one comment said it was like being punched in the stomach by this pax. Problem was my cabin crew where not as supportive as yours... and laughed when it was said!

With regard to the 74 driver, thanks its similar to the 73, but knowing what to do and how to actually land safely isnt the problem. I know how to fly the plane and land it safely. Its just a bit of mental block I now have at this particular runway. Silly I know..

Anyway, Ive slept on it and still feel like crap. Just going to try my best next week when I am back to work to nail them!!!

[bfisk]

I know how you feel, mate.

As a young FO (youngest in my company) I was temporarily placed on another base for a week last summer, scheduled with a captain I hadn't met before. When we met, and talked a while, I pulled the self-ironic joke that I had a practice week (you know, like you have when you're like 13 and in school and you get to go do something daft for a week).

He offered me to fly the first leg, which was a short hop (20 minutes or so), to a relatively short runway. We arrived in beautiful VMC day conditions, although with a fresh breeze and quite a bit of turbulence around the airport. Some difficult wind conditions combined with a piss poor landing (worse than usual!), I bounced it, saved it and didn't say much. Oh well. Every once in a while you screw it up, just like you every once in a while grease it without conscious thought. The tower announced "landing time 51 and 52". After landing the skipper asked if I wanted to talk about it...? Well, I told him what I thought happened (wind and this and that height, power correction, speed etc, you know the drill), but he now took on the instructor role and his faith in me obviously was near zero. What was to that date (and still is) my worst landing in that aircraft was now his sole reference to my flying ability.

Needless to say the rest of the period I had quite a bit of pressure on me to convince him I could actually land the thing. And when you feel you absolutely positively have to grease it, and you can feel the tension in the cockpit, him being ready to take over in a split second... I doesn't help with lowering your shoulders! OTOH I can understand his reaction, but it's a bad feeling to have.

Oh well. I guess it's part of the job to deal with those emotions. And it's important to know that everyone, despite of effort and skill, will every once in a while screw it up, landings too. IMHO a good pilot will only do it less frequently!

[fireflybob]

which was a short hop (20 minutes or so), to a relatively short runway. We arrived in beautiful VMC day conditions, although with a fresh breeze and quite a bit of turbulence around the airport.

bfisk, no disrespect to you, but it's interesting he gave you the sector rather than taking it himself!! Would have been fun to see how he got on!

Just a personal thing but, almost exclusively, if I haven't flown with the FO before I usually do the first sector myself. It takes a little time to get to know people and assess where they are at and hopefully they will learn a bit about my own style and cadence, notwithstanding SOPs.

[6000PIC]

Forgive me in advance for speaking the obvious , but your preoccupation with your inability to land an aircraft properly speaks volumes about your overall lack of experience , and your job has everything to do with your employer allowing you to gain that experience at the expense of numerous hard landings. To rephrase an old saying , "they get what you pay for". Don`t use the Boeing phrase firm landing to justify your inexperience. I`d be rather unhappy also , knowing as a passenger your overall experience operating any aircraft let alone a jet with fare paying passengers amounted to so little. What pray tell would happen someday your babysitter in the LH seat had an incapacitation event ? What a sorry state this industry is in.

[con-pilot]

Don't sweat the small stuff. I made rather firm (:uhoh:) landings in 727s after I had over 7,000 hours in them. It's going to happen. As long as it was a safe landing that is all that counts.

With time in type you will improve, at least you should.

As for passenger comments, just shrug them off. Or you could reply; "I guess everything you do is perfect."

Anyway, don't worry about it.

[Nicholas49]

6000PIC has a point.

There is absolutely no question that the passenger had no right to speak to you in that manner. It is also highly likely that she (and most other passengers) think a smooth landing is a good one, a firm landing is a bad one. Everyone here knows the issues are more complex than that.

And yet...

you have admitted, on a public forum, that you do not have confidence in your ability to land the passenger aircraft on which you are type-rated. That does not fill one with confidence. Should you not be addressing the matter with your training department? Or at the least the captain of that flight?

[TheGorrilla]

Pah! Lowered the elevation of a few runway touchdown zones myself. Confidence comes with experience and so does the ability to shrug this stuff off. Also the truth is, a soft landing is a bonus. it is not included in the ticket price. Any unwarranted criticism by passengers in this fashion shouldn't be met with an apology. A short reply of "goodbye madam" and no more works wonders.

[foresight]

You should not have apologised, she should not have been allowed to poke her nose through the flight deck door (keep it shut until they are all off). I hope your captain was supportive.



I`d be rather unhappy also , knowing as a passenger your overall experience operating any aircraft let alone a jet with fare paying passengers amounted to so little. What pray tell would happen someday your babysitter in the LH seat had an incapacitation event ? What a sorry state this industry is in.

Ignore that as well.

you have admitted, on a public forum, that you do not have confidence in your ability to land the passenger aircraft on which you are type-rated.

No, he/she did not admit that.

[Tigh Wire]

Just tell them that the new tyres are a bit firm for the first couple of landings. Draw them slightly to one side while explaining this in lowered tones.They will feel special & leave happy.

[parabellum]

Also, I probably wouldn't go retarding the thrust levers at 30ft as a matter of course, I'm sure Parrabellum didn't mean you to transfer 747 techniques onto the 73 but I just thought I'd mention it in case you took it literally and thumped it on again next flight!


Spot on Framer!:ok:

MRBH, those were 747 numbers, to be adjusted to the 737 as appropriate, though you wouldn't flare much below 10', I would have thought?

The best advice is to put the whole episode behind you and move on, you know from previous experience that you can do a decent landing and yes, we have all thumped them in at least once. One day you will laugh at what the pax said and tell the story in the bar.

[FLCH]

You don't have to answer to someone that has no idea what they are talking about, just move on.

However if you make a less than stellar landing, tell your fellow crewmember : "Well thank God that one ended my streak of bad landings !"

It works for me ....

HTH :)

[skyeuropecapt]

Mrs rodge,
I suggest you read the flight crew training manual once again.

If you maintain the proper speed/path,start the flare at 20 feet,look down the runway,and only when ESTABLISHED in the flare,reduce the thrust to IDLE while pitching up a few degrees to counteract the nose dropping..

Even if you tried to make hard landings you wont be able too;-):ok:

[Mac the Knife]

When I end up with a less than perfect result, I remind myself that:

Only the mediocre are at their best every day!

:ok:

Mac

[FliegerTiger]

To be honest, we all have a bad spell every now & again! For instance, I flew with a Captain who has been with our company for 15 years, flew the 737 first and now on A319/320.....he crunched it into my home base runway harder than any "firm" landing I have made since base training! You just have to try & put it behind you & not let it wind you up too much. It will all come together.

[GlueBall]

Max autobrake setting can jolt a lot of people off their seatbacks and create unnecessary mental stress; I wouldn't recommend that setting unless other deceleration devices were inop and you were on a very short pavement.

I have no B73 info, but the B74 at 3000psi sustained brake application would come to a full stop in 3,800'
In all my years of flying, I have never used "Max" setting, except in the sim. :ooh:

[fernytickles]

Firm landing? My response, regardless of the runway conditions, it is necessary to make a firm landing in order to make good contact through the surface water and prevent aqua-planing :ok:

One very experienced captain I flew with many years ago said that we all make mistakes, the trick is to reduce the number of mistakes each flight - that goes for SOPs and landings.

As for that passenger's response? Nasty :mad:, rise above it and don't let her very bitter streak affect your self confidence.

[FEHERTO]

I am just a "for my fun" pilot, but a really frequent flyer. And I had in my live a lot of hard landings to experience.

**** happens (if it had been really ****) and that's it. Do you think, she is always perfect in her job (if she works at all).

[A Comfy Chair]

Well for a start, I'd certainly ignore the passenger comments.

For a start, as you well know, passengers have no idea about the situation, nor what actually makes a good landing. I've had passengers compliment me on the best landing they've ever felt after slamming it on, and conversely had people say it was a bad landing when it was as good as I've ever felt. Many really have no idea.

If you were floating, and looking like landing long on a short strip then the place to be is either on the ground, or going around. Who cares if its a bit firm? We're not talking hard, damaging the aircraft... just firm. You're safely on the runway, and decelerating... not chewing up valuable runway.

The thing I think you need to ask yourself is: Do you have confidence that you can put the aircraft on the runway in the touchdown zone repeatably? If the answer is yes, but sometimes its going to be a bit firm, then you've got nothing to worry about. Runways with slopes can be a prick. Just keep doing it. If the answer is no, and you don't have confidence you can put the aircraft where you need to, then you need to go back to basics, and get that right before worrying about smooth touchdowns.

I think sometimes we get caught up in the theory of it all. When it comes down to it you know where the wheels are, you know where the runway is... so just visualise putting the wheels where you want them, and do it.

[411A]

Personally heard from a passenger on a Continental Airlines flight, as he passed the FD, exiting the airplane...

Nice landing, Crash.:eek:

[stilton]

As professional Pilots we are always our own harshest critics, and you probably always will be. Expecting the utmost from ourselves is normal in this career and that's a good thing.



Because of this, particularly when starting out, a firm landing for example may seem catastrophic in your mind (Passengers opinions do NOT count and you have no reason to apologise)



On an 1800 m runway it's more important than ever to get it down and stopped in quick order. In this respect do not forget that without doubt you accomplished the most important thing.



Believe me, everyone, and mostly you would be far more unhappy with a gentle touchdown too far down the runway and consequent overrun. Have a look at the Pictures of the AA738 in Jamaica and imagine how this crew feels now.




So, keep things in perspective, everyone crunches it on once in while, myself included. learn from it and move on.



A couple of things, make sure you are looking and keep looking at the END of the runway as you come over the threshold, I know you've heard this before but it is vital in judging your flare.



Try to be as close to target speed as possible while aggressively correcting high sink rates with power (especially close to the ground)



I would disagree with the 'mechanical' approach endorsed by some on this thread, especially with reducing power to idle at 50 ft. This may work on a 747 but not on most narrowbody's.


I do agree with 'Glueball' Max Autobrakes is quite severe and I have never used it outside of the sim. It also can make a firm arrival and ensuing rollout seem even more violent than it really needs to be.


If you cannot touchdown in the touchdown zone GO AROUND.


Take a careful look at your flight manual to see recommended settings for different runway lengths / conditions, and just as important talk to your Captains about what they think is appropriate. There may be a time one day when you need 'MAX' but in normal line service it would be very rare.



Try a lower setting and remember you can always trip them off and use manual brakes if you need more (max manual brakes is MORE than max autobrakes for landing) this will usually be smoother.



Happy landings.

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

"6000PIC Forgive me in advance for speaking the obvious , but your preoccupation with your inability to land an aircraft properly speaks volumes about your overall lack of experience , and your job has everything to do with your employer allowing you to gain that experience at the expense of numerous hard landings. To rephrase an old saying , "they get what you pay for". Don`t use the Boeing phrase firm landing to justify your inexperience. I`d be rather unhappy also , knowing as a passenger your overall experience operating any aircraft let alone a jet with fare paying passengers amounted to so little. What pray tell would happen someday your babysitter in the LH seat had an incapacitation event ? What a sorry state this industry is in."

Listen 6000PIC, what ever chip you have on your shoulder about low hours guys/gals getting into the RH seat you may drop it. It doesnt wash with me, in fact your whole post smells of "Ive got a big chip on my shoulder, because I had to wait to get a RH seat"... I have come across people like you in the past and do you know what, thats just life! Get over it.

Yes I have low hours, and yes I am inexperienced, but I have passed all my line checks and sim checks first time with high scores. I trained in one of the best flight schools in Europe and passed everything first time, and the biggest point to note... The civil aviation authority has licenced me to fly the ac!!!

Also, I dont need a baby sitter as you so eloquently put it! If this is your view on your job as capt, you may retire now, as it sounds like you need a refresher on crm!

Everyone else, thank you so much for the kind comments and advice, back to the driving this weekend. All good with no probs! It was just her comment that really stuck to the core of me.

Regards,
Mrs Rodge.

[deltahotel]

Sod her, Mrs R. Get back on the horse and good luck in the future.

If I get on the centre line at the right speed in the landing zone running straight, I'm happy. Anything vaguely approaching soft is a bonus, esp on a short r/w. Whatever else you do, don't waste r/w striving for the greaser.

Mind you, I have one big advantage - being a night freight pilot, the parcels never complain.

All the best

DH

[lowcostdolly]

Mrs Rodge I'm not a pilot but an Airbus CC and have been through a few "crunchers" in my time. One that really sticks in my mind was a Training Captain who almost buried it in the runway (his words)!!! It's not just the inexperienced who do it so don't sweat :)

As for the pax :rolleyes:. Some of them have an opinion on everything aviation which will include your flying skills. Some of them can be downright hurtful especially when you are not used to it. As CC we very quickly learn to rise above anything they know nothing about. You will in time I'm sure :ok:

[rjay259]

I always find its the calm cavok days that are the worst. At least with some wind you can shake the a/c around and make it look like it was a tough landing.

Dont sweat it at all, be clear in the knowlage that you will have many more hard landings, even on 10,500' long runways. I still do and have been on the a/c for 4.5 years now. Still not a long time but have had more than my fair share.

All pax are going to have bad days, not sure why the cc let the pax into the flight deck tho.

259.

[parabellum]

As for the pax :rolleyes:. Some of them have an opinion on everything aviation which will include your flying skills.


And it is truly amazing how many of them come here to PPRuNe to air their views!:yuk:

[6000PIC]

Mrs. Rodge , what do you think your opinion will be of someone in the right hand seat in say, 15-20 years time henceforth ( if not sooner ), with your equivalent experience as at present , especially when you look back and realize how little you knew then ? Really try and think about that. Or perhaps you are unable to extrapolate such a concept ? How about this...would you want one of your parents operated on by an intern, just out of med school ? Or how about your brother or sister defended for a capital crime by a novice lawyer ? Just why does the flying public not deserve better ?? Do you understand or are you just taking this too personal to see the obvious ? We can all join hands and sing kumbaya as far as crm goes , but my point still stands - if you are focusing and worrying too much about landing an aircraft , you shouldn`t be there , at least have more training... or god forbid ... more experience. I`ve got no chip on my shoulder , it`s more like disgust that someone with such minimal experience is in control of a jet aircraft with members of the public paying to let you practice. Hooray for the CAA. At least they got their money.

[stilton]

'6000PIC'


Did you start your career with the same amount of experience as your 'moniker' then ?


Your self serving comments are inane and pointless. Every Doctor / Lawyer /
and yes professional Pilot has to start somewhere.


Even with low experience that means they will be operating on patients, representing clients in court and yes, flying passengers without the seasoning
of those who have been doing it for thousands of hours.



Thats why you start in the right seat remember ? the Captain is not there as a 'babysitter' he or she is however in a position to be a mentor and a powerful influence on the establishment of good habit patterns with new and inexperienced First Officers.



Personally I consider it one of the greatest privileges of command and do my best to show a good example.



A firm landing once in a while happens to all of us. Criticizing someone for it is completely counterproductive and potentially can cause a major loss of confidence just when it is needed most.



A quiet word with a friendly tip or two can and will go a long way (and it will never be forgotten)



You seem to have lost the plot old chap..

[ExSp33db1rd]

I announced to the Pub. that I had just returned from a freighter trip and one old bugger asked when was I going to be considered good enough to fly passengers ! I told him I VOLUNTEERED for the freight trips because a) freight doesn't complain ( as has been mentioned already ) and b) you can play with the aeroplane and only your Captain will complain.

Once had a Captains' windscreen totally mist over on a night landing, he was a ' new' Captain and was forbidden to 'give' landings to co-pilots until he had more experience in Command, and suggested that therefore he had to change seats ! ( he was actually more experienced from the right hand seat than the left at that stage ) I talked him out of that but he insisted on completing what became a somewhat firm landing himself instead of handing it to me.

Walking through the terminal we heard a passenger remark to his wife that it was a poor landing - but I suppose the co-pilot did it !!!

I heard of a 707 Capt. telling the handling co-pilot that he wanted to hear the landing gear oleo relays clicking in and out as they landed vveerrry smoothly. The landing was OK and the Capt. handled the next leg. His landing crashed it in from a great height, and having finally wrestled the beast to a halt, the co-pilot leaned across and said " Click, f***ing Click " !!

People used to ask me why I was still flying at nearly 60 yrs. old ? Cos I'm still trying to get it right, I said.

My last flight, 747-300 and an Instructor too, was in a cross-wind and I didn't make the best job of it that was probably possible that night - and I will never get the chance to redeem myself now, sod it !!

If you push the pole forward at an estimated 5 ft. above the deck on a 747, you can just rrollll the main wheels on. Sometimes. Feels great.

[one post only!]

A guy told me that during training the training capt smashed it onto the runway with frightening force. On the taxi in the trg capt said what do you think experience tells me about the landing. The trainee tried his best to critique the technique etc and to come up with some valid points.

All good, the training capt replied but no, what experience teaches me is not to give a ****.

Sometimes no matter how hard you try you will balls it up. In fact the harder you try the worse it becomes! You are now probably trying so hard and getting stressed about trying to make a good landing at this particular runway that you are not performing at your best. Stress reduces capacity and all that. Try and relax a bit and you will start to roll it on. Stop caring so much and I bet they get better.

Don't worry if it doesn't happen over night.

P.S slightly disappointed the capt didn't defend you. All they had to say is that while firm it was a safe landing and that they felt it didn't warrant that sort of comment and could they please leave. That or piss off you trout!

[q1W2e3R4t5]

6000PIC,

the topic was started because the poster was less than happy about a particular landing which was made worse by the fact a passenger felt strongly enough to say something in person. They are not worried about their ability to fly and land the aircraft 'safely'. That is not in question.

I started as a 250 hour cadet and went from flying a seneca to a 738. It would not have mattered if I'd clocked up 2000 hours on the seneca as time on type is the only way to learn a new aircraft.

We have posters with lots of experience right upto their very last flight still making mistakes.

If we are talking about experience here then given the choice, passengers will pick Capt 15000PIC over yourself anyday of the week! It works for both seats you know.

[Checkboard]

If I am passengering in the back in uniform, and experience a firm landing, the passengers next to me usually ask about it. My response is usually: "As far as pilots are concerned, it is where the aircraft lands that is important. Too short, too long, too far left or right etc. Smooth is nice, but not necessary." That usually satisfies them.

Remember that, at the moment, you can only judge your performance against the person in the left seat - who should be experienced enough to consistently beat your performance! If you ask them to judge you against your peers (who they get the chance to see, as you don't.) you may get a better opinion of your performance than you think!

As an aside (sorry for the thread drift):
it is necessary to make a firm landing in order to make good contact through the surface water and prevent aqua-planingI just want to point out that that is an old wife's tale. Manuals talk about "not extending the flare for a smooth contact" simply to point out that you must not waste runway!

Aquaplaning takes place purely when the pressure of the water against and under the tyre exceeds the pressure of the tyre, and that pressure is dependant on having:
A water depth greater than the depth of the tyre tread, (i.e. a flooded runway.), and
a speed greater than 7.7 times the square root of the tyre pressure (for a non-rotating tyre to spin up).
How firm or soft the touch down was, however many meters behind the aircraft, is completely irrelevant.

[pax britanica]

As a humble PAX I do think it astonishingly rude that someone would make a remark like that-as many hear have said what on earth did she know since you cannot see much of whats going on from the passenger seat. Its a bit late now you have posted it here to say forget it-similar things happen to everyone early in careers but usually when people are addressing someone with a job thats a bit easier to understand than a pilots. Like profesional footballer who screws up and has 30,000 people, all of whom are better than him in their minds- yelling abuse at him.

Mind you I always felt for the pilot-not sure which one- of an SAS MD81 which in contrast to generally very smooth arrivals hit the ARN tarmac with an almighty crash bouncing many overhead bins open only to hear the in charge CC announce in English."Ladies and Gentlemen AS YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED we have arrived in Stockholm" ,talk about damning with feint praise.

PB

[PENKO]

Short runways have a nasty habit of playing with your mind. As one poster already mentioned, techniquewise you don't land any differently on a 1800m rwy than on a 3000m one. Once you realise this... :)

You floated, you dealth with it, the captain didn't smack you...mission accomplished and an experience wiser!

[PT6A]

Yes I guess the view in the back is really misleading! Had a passenger comment yesterday when getting off the aircraft yesterday about us making a “very steep approach”
Funny thing is we had just done an auto coupled ILS to a 3.01 degree G/S!!
So I would agree with most of the posters on here and just let it go in one ear and out of the other!

[Doors to Automatic]

I wouldn't worry about the odd firm arrival - if it is in the TDZ, doesn't bend the gear and you are stopped before the row of red lights, then it is a good landing.

Alternatively you could strive for the perfect landing that is so smooth that the passengers give you a round of applause - as they did here (very briefly):

YouTube - LDG TA 767 GUA Accident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrvmUaW6ylw&feature=related)

:ok:

[Piltdown Man]

It's a good landing if:

1. It's in the right place (correct airport helps and even better in the TDZ)
2. it's done at the correct speed
3. It happens at the end of end of a stabilised approach
4. You were tracking in the correct direction
5. You had the correct pitch attitude on touchdown
6. You dealt with drift appropriately

So if these were requirements were met, and the landing was a bit firm, you now have the most difficult thing ahead - to tell those who may criticise your landing to stick their heads up their bums, politely. I can do the rude version but the polite one still escapes me. What am I doing wrong?

PM

[TheGorrilla]

I always think it's funny how much emphasis is placed on the landing when judging a good or bad flight. I have to admit, I really don't care anymore. So long as the landing is reasonable, not to hard and in the right place I'm happy.

I have no time at all for the numpty who floats halfway down the runway "feeling" for a greaser or the pillock who has no concept of drift and lands 15m downwind of the centerline. Infact, I would really lose my rag with those two.

The 1.8g planter in the TDZ gets my vote every time. Right spot, drift off, brakes on.

[Bealzebub]

The 1.8g planter in the TDZ gets my vote every time.

I think yours would be the only vote it got!

[flyboy_nz]

Mate, I have only SE experience, but I thought I would add my 2 cents in to hopefully make you feel better.

We were joking about this during our Instructor Rating that before every approach, to annouce to the pax, "Ladies and Gentlemen we have an emergency on board - we have lost both engines, the landing gear might not be down, we have lost the hydraulics and and just barely able to control the aircraft, but we are on final approach and will be attempting to land the aircraft on the runway."

So, when you do land the aircraft, even if it's the crapiest landing, all the pax are guaranteed to :D.

[Blues&twos]

Coming on top of your bad feeling about the landing, a comment from a passenger like that is bound to make you feel low.

In a different arena (I drive rescue boats on the Thames) I used to feel the same....if I attended an emergency promptly I would be loudly and publically criticised by onlookers and event organisers for "endangering other people, the speed limit's 4 knots y'know", if I slowed down a bit I'd be loudly and publically criticised by onlookers and event organisers for "not responding quickly enough". I always felt I'd done something wrong.

It really got me down at first, but after a while I realised that complaints from the public who had absolutely no idea about the different circumstances and considerations I was having to take into account (which they couldn't see or just didn't understand) meant their comments were meaningless. It's all water off a duck's back now.

People who complain in these circumstances, when you know things weren't perfect, but weren't actually that bad either just display their ignorance and arrogance and should be ignored.
:ok:

[TheGorrilla]

[QUOTE] The 1.8g planter in the TDZ gets my vote every time.
I think yours would be the only vote it got! /QUOTE]

I suspect not. Only landings above 2g require a heavy landing check, unless the Captain determines otherwise (in our organization). A smooth landing that ends up off the end of the runway may require the front end of the aircraft to be rebuilt. A crap landing way of the center with large amounts of drift still on (smooth or not) may induce undercarriage collapse, pod strike, tip strike and much humiliation.

I'll take the 1.8g straight and true on the TDZ option any day. Sod the ego!

[Tarq57]

As a SLF, heavy landings don't bother me. Nor heavy braking. If stuff comes out of the overheads and collides with my noggin on the way down, the annoyance is directed at the manufacturer of the overheads, and the airline management that allow the stashing of high-octane duty-free missiles up there, not the flight crew.
Long flares and floats on a short-ish runway, do, even if the touchdown is smooth. (Especially the runway that I keep an eye on at work.)

When you have more experience on type and the confidence that goes with that, such a comment won't have the same sting. By this time it's probably lost most of its' sting anyway, I would hope.

Someone said earlier they were a bit disappointed that the captain didn't offer a bit of support.
I think the same should be said of the CC. Does it reveal anything about CRM or morale in the company you work for? Do you normally get on OK with these people? (Not that it should be a factor.)
Try not to respond in kind should the applicable CC member/s ever be in a situation where the roles are reversed, would be the sort of thinking I'd aim for.

[Pilot Pete]

Right.

Firstly, as others have said, don't worry about it. And certainly don't apologise. You are EXTREMELY inexperienced (as we all were once). An 1800m strip (5900ft) is short for a 738. My operator sets a restriction of 6000' or more for F/Os (let's not have a debate about the rights and wrongs of that), but the fact they put that restriction in the manuals means that the pilot management consider it to be 'more challenging' shall we say? I have just done a calculation using our landing performance software for an 1800m runway with a 0.5% upslope for one of our 738s (without the short field performance package) at MLW (65250kg). On a 'standard' day using flap 40, using inflight performance (forgetting about dispatch requirements), autobrake 3 has an LDR of 1626m, unfactored. Max autobrake has an LDR of 1167m, again unfactored. So do pilots still think his choice of max autobrake was inappropriate? You really need to know the type to comment because I have flown 75/767 too and never got anywhere max auto, but remember they have many more wheels and the brake settings have different deceleration rates (3 on a 73 feels like less than 2 on a 75).

An upslope adds to the challenge, as does a 15kt crosswind! You say it was at night, so other factors also add to the challenge; lighting, weather, approach you flew etc etc.

Add that little lot up and I would say that for someone with 350hrs on type you were perhaps (with all due respect) closer to your available capacity limit than perhaps the guy in the other seat would have been.

It is always better to consolidate your flying after initial line training by trying to build consistency, which is easier to achieve on less challenging approaches/ runways. I would advise speaking with your captain during the preflight briefing and mention that you are trying to build some consistency with landings and perhaps consider the factors at your home base, which may mean that another sector would be more appropraite in that consolidation. Perhaps pick the home base for a landing when conditions are more favourable, say no crosswind to deal with, in daytime and good visibility. That way you can crack the nut and build up to more challenging conditions rather than jump straight in at the deep end.

For those offering advice who do not fly the type I would say be careful, because the advice about 'chopping thrust' is not something that should be applied to a 737, at any height, let alone at 50'. I train on Classic and -NG and the usual problem that we encounter with inconsistent landings during type training is with de-stabilising the approach in the last few hundred feet. What do I mean by that? Usually an inappropriate power setting for the configuration (slightly too much or slightly too little). This leads to a slight speed excursion and usually coupled to this a slight glideslope deviation (as the scan breaks down trying to set the power, just as the glide is getting increasingly sensitive) and a subsequent correction, usually by too much in the case of power setting. This then leads to the visual transition being slightly less than optimal, with power not quite set correctly, a V/S slightly away from optimal (chasing the sensitive glide before looking out) and the workload increasing just when you want any extra capacity to concentrate on moving the gaze from the touchdown zone to the end of the runway. It makes a 'good' landing more difficult from such an approach. However, we all do them, even with years of experience, but the difference is that the experienced pilot still has capacity to make last minute adjustments to 'catch' any late deviation and can 'feel' the landing, even without perhaps looking right down the runway! It all comes with time and experience.

So, have a review of the correct techniques in the FCTM, especially with flap 40. Any chopping of the power, especially if you are spot on the correct Vref + increment in the flare will make you drop onto the runway. If anything, you need to leave the power on a fraction longer than with a flap 30, making sure you are 'flared' before reducing thrust smoothly. In your scenario, if you are floating on a flap 40 landing, on a reasonably short runway with an uphill slope, then your flare has been at the incorrect height. You should be thinking GO AROUND.

Get your approach nice and stable, nice and early on and then hand fly from a reasonable distance out (don't disconnect at 500'!) to get a feel for it. If you fully configure with the automatics in and let the aircraft stabilise for you before disconnecting you will have a reference thrust setting for your speed. Many disconnect with the flaps running, or the autothrottle still moving towards the correct setting. This just adds to your workload. If you want to disconnect earlier, have a ballpark figure for the correct thrust setting; on an -NG, look at INIT REF and your current weight is about the right value for your N1 setting for a flap 40 landing. Use that as a datum to then make small corrections from. For flap 30 it is your current weight minus about 6.

Keep that scan going and don't fixate on the Flight Director, bring in the V/S on the IVSI; another rule of thumb is to fully stabilise, look at the groundspeed and divide by 2 and add a zero (say 150kts G/S means 75 with a zero =750fpm) that is your reference V/S for a 3 degree slope. If the IVSI says 900fpm, you are about to go low on the glide, if it says 600fpm, you WILL go high if you don't correct promptly.

Once you transition to the visual you need to move from inside scan to start bringing outside in more and more. In the last few hundred feet you should be concentrating more on the aiming point and looking inside for speed and the odd glance at the other instruments to confirm they are still correct. Just like in a 152, fix that aiming point in the screen and make minor stick adjustments to keep it there. Don't be chasing the glideslope now, use the aiming point as your reference, keep that speed nailed and your flare will be much easier from this stable position. As you hear the 50,40,30 callouts you should be transitioning to looking right down the runway and starting to 'feel' the height above the runway from the seat of your pants (it will come). Think flare at 30' so you are actioning it at 20'. Pitch the nose to the flare attitude and hold it there. Don't freeze on the controls, keep putting in those little inputs to hold the attitude and the wings level, slowly start to reduce thrust smoothly so as to be at idle as the main gear touches. Easy eh?


As for the passenger comments, as others have said, ignore them. I would be disappointed as a trainer on that flight if your captain did not go and fend off those comments on your behalf. Remember how you feel after that experience. I did exactly the same many moons ago and my captain stood in the flight deck entrance and listened to the rantings of a certain 'seasoned traveller' who was not happy. The captain just said, "it was a safe landing sir", to which the punter disagreed, so he said again "it was a safe landing sir". After repeating this about four or five times the pax gave up and walked off, refusing to take the offered contact details of the Flight Operations Director....Works a treat and I have used exactly the same comments to protect a young colleague in similar circumstances. He was beating himself up and in the end left the crewroom laughing with me.

To sum up;

1. Consider the suitability of the airfield/ runway/ conditions at this early stage in your career and the likelihood of it helping you to conslidate.

2. Communicate with your captain nice and early on, preferably at the planning stage. Most captains appreciate your 'heads up' and will be supportive and encouraging and willing to help. Some might even offer you more landings if they feel you would benefit!

3. Never be afraid to give a landing away, better to do it early, perhaps even brief the possibility so that the guy in the other seat can expect it. They will really appreciate this professionalism.

4. And last but not least, ALWAYS be thinking Go-AROUND, even in the flare if things aren't right and even more so on a limiting runway.

Happy landings

PP

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

Pilot Pete and others... thank you very much for some supportive posts. Really have helped.

I forgot to mention the capt on the day was a really good guy, I think as far as the pax comment he was probably in shock at what she said also. But he confirmed with me afterwards it was a safe landning.

The good news is I have got my mojo back, most landings this week have been on TDZ, centerline and on the correct speed. So ive been happy with myself. I think what prompted me to post is the fact that my confidence was low and the pax just hit me when I was down!

Once again, thanks for the help and kind comments.

"Missus Rodge.... Bless her"

[Pilot Pete]

Good news! Glad to hear it.

Can I ask where you got the mojo from as I planted one in to Chambery last weekend?:ok:

PP

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

I purchased him from the crew shop in Malaga, they sell mojo's too ya know! They gave me a discount because the last one as you know was a bit dodge. :ok:

[hoksipgao]

Hi,

This thread made me angry enough to register. Take no notice of these idiots. Try aiming that kind of criticisem at a taxi driver and see what happens!

There is the problem these days. Airlines are marketed like taxis and actual "do'ers" like pilot F/O, ATC, ground, FA's that actually have the knowledge and skills are treated like sh**.

I'm a product expert in my job so the 95% time I get it right there is silence and the 5% - hang the wkr!

Shrug it off. Ignore it. Most pax probably enjoyed it.

My best was coming in to LCY with some wind ** THUMP**!

Loved it.

Anyway, remember, you know more than "them". Did you *really* worry on landing for safety? Undignified doesn't = Unsafe.

You'll always encounter these types in life (and in all industries) and it is hard not "rise" to them but once you have had a few "back seat" experts you will start to see a pattern.

Best regards,

Hok,

[UK019]

As ever, Pilot Pete gives the real gen. He should write a textbook. Maybe he has(?)

Since 1978 I've had 2 passenger complaints about 2 of my landings. Perhaps I should be more accurate - I've had 2 complaints that I've actually heard!! ;)

The first was in the '80s when I put an F27 down in a crosswind using the standard wing-down technique and subsequently a loud-mouth (a barrister as it happens) complained very vocally about the fact that I had landed on just the one main leg first. He was actually practically frog-marched to the flight deck by our No1 (who was incensed.) I explained the technique, and we then had a nice - polite - little discussion about how he would feel if I yelled "objection!" from the public gallery in his courtroom.

The second was in a B737-300 in 2001 at CDG when the complaint was relayed to me that my landing was "too fast and dangerous." Granted, it wasn't the prettiest but it wasn't "dangerous." As far as I recall the speed was just right, but I don't know what the passenger's personal ASI on the seat back in front of him was indicating (!!!!!)

The point was that I saw, if not actually red, certainly a pretty strong shade of russet. Anyone who knows me would say that the fact that I got out of my seat and tapped the oaf (a real oik) on the shoulder was totally out of character for me. I explained that I had received his complaint, took it very seriously and that when I returned to the UK I would have the FDR trace analysed. I explained that if - as I believed - this was a perfectly normal landing I would consider sueing him for defamation.

I still cannot believe that I said such a stupid thing to a fare paying passenger - but I was rattled and I did. Fortunately the gentleman grovelled and didn't call my ridiculous bluff - thank goodness.

The very best reply that I've ever heard of was an American pilot who came out of the flight-deck to confront his seat 18A critic. He quietly said "Sir, do you really think that we give a sh*t about what you guys think about our landings?"

As many of the posts have said - it happens and it'll happen again.

Happy landings, as they say.....

[framer]

Mrs Rodge.....start marking your landings out of ten using this technique.
a mark out of four for speed
a mark out of four for touchdown location
and a mark out of two for finesse.
.....with that method a real thumper on the 1500ft marks, spot o speed, gets you an 8 out of 10.

Thats what I did for a few hundred hours until I stopped caring lol:ok:

[TheGorrilla]

Alternatively, stand by the cockpit door when the whining passenger gets off and smile politely while listening to their complaint. Then when they've finishing ranting say "did my landing hurt you as much as this"..... Smack!!!!

:}

[Starter Crew]

747 Chief Pilot Mark Feuerstein in today's post-flight news conference after the -8 maiden test flight...
Feuerstein acknowledged the front landing gear bounced a bit on the landing.
"It might have been a timing issue on my part, quite frankly," he said. "I was pretty excited to land."

[hueyshuffle]

Firm...but safe? You got the bloody SLF from A to B. So the field's a bit tougher. Just a matter of time and you'll be greasing them on. Chin up old boy

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

Cheers guys and gals. Everythings being going swimmingly lately!