Haiti - a sign?

[Uncle Ginsters]

As i'm sure you all have, i've just been watching a little news coverage from the Haiti relief efforts.

Whilst i was heartened to see the levels of support from most nations - especially the Qataris' use of their C17s as they said they would - it also struck me that not a single UK military asset is there yet, at least visibly.

Is this a very public sign of the true state of 'stretch' of our AT fleet? It would, sadly, appear so.

Uncle G:ugh:

[JFZ90]

Are we sending any Mil AT help at all?

[120class]

A decade ago or so one would have reasonably expected to see some sort of RAF AT aircraft flying in aid. Given the Op tempo over the past 10 years there are unlikely to be any spare assets available.

On a slightly more positive note a British Airways 747 left the UK (via Denmark) today carrying relief supplies bound for Haiti. The entire cost of the aircraft (incl fuel) is being borne by BA.

Security concerns hampers Haiti aid effort - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6990797.ece)

Regards

[minigundiplomat]

The entire cost of the aircraft (incl fuel) is being borne by BA.


That's great, they are almost as poorly placed as the military right now.

[Diablo Rouge]

BA are banking the positive PR, and Virgin followed suit with a 747 full of rescue folk following the BA cab but without the european detour. I do wonder how the UK can donate millions when we are bankrupt, and although that sounds harsh given the situation, it is nevertheless a fact.

Go to Haiti and dance with the devil.

[Arty Fufkin]

From discusions on Friday, it is / has been looked at. It would appear however, that there is no shortage of supplies in the area, the issue is getting them inti Haiti itself with one knakered runway available. Aircraft have been turned away as there is simply no room for them. Us pitching up would probably be no more than a pointless guesture and add to the congestion at this stage. Maybe once things have settled it will happen. As for available AT assets: I guess the VC10 can still carry freight, there's plenty of them around not doing much after decisions made at the end of the week!!

[RileyDove]

The civil freighters can do just as good a job as the military stuff as there is no requirement for short field performance at Port Au Prince. The USS Carl Vinson is stationed on the coast but finding things difficult due to a lack of suitable landing zones for helicopters near to where people need them. With Haiti being 500 miles off the U.S coast there is little point in the U.K sending aircraft there if money can just as easily mobilize supplies from the U.S.

[Mick Strigg]

But it does prove the worth of owning a floating airfield!

[minigundiplomat]

But it does prove the worth of owning a floating airfield!
No it doesn't. Try reading the previous post.


The USS Carl Vinson is stationed on the coast but finding things difficult due to a lack of suitable landing zones for helicopters near to where people need them.
If the Americans, with a proper carrier are finding it difficult, what is one of our imperial war canoes going to add?

I dont think the Haitians need a cocktail party right now.

[Kitbag]

Us pitching up would probably be no more than a pointless guesture

Never stopped this government before.

[JFZ90]

are there no rough strips to get C130s in?

[Widger]

It is a very sad indication of the state of our armed forces in the UK. Some decades ago, not only would the RAF have been flying in but the RN would have been on scene within 48 hrs, having ships regularly stationed in the area.

Before Minigun and others slate the Carl Vinson, remember the fact that the ship not only has air assets but a hospital, food and can produce thousands of litres of drinking water every day.

It seems that a lot of international aid is on Hispaniola but is being either held up at the border with DR or cannot get through. Without a deep water harbour, some assault ships with LCVPs and LCUs could be useful but, the tinpot nation that we are these days could probably not afford the fuel to get there.

[MarkD]

Article on 621st Contingency Response Wing, USAF deployment to PAP (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/751537--elite-team-s-job-is-to-unsnarl-airfield)At one point Thursday 44 planes were waiting to land at the airport, with no room to unload them and no fuel for departure refills.

With just two fuelling vehicles and two trucks to tow aircraft on the ground, the delays were inevitable, said a U.S. air force officer.

[minigundiplomat]

Before Minigun and others slate the Carl Vinson, remember the fact that the ship not only has air assets but a hospital, food and can produce thousands of litres of drinking water every day.

Nobody reads posts anymore!

No intention of slating the Carl Vinson, its a very capable platform. But if it can't help, then what good are any of our pygmy carriers?

[Union Jack]

Sadly for him, I suspect that MGD has yet to achieve sufficiently high rank to qualify for the level of staff training that would disabuse him of his extraordinarily distorted views about the role, capability, and history of the Royal Navy.

However, even a little research would enable him to discover that ships of both the Royal Navy and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary have an outstanding record of assisting, frequently with only a single destroyer, frigate, or RFA, backed up by ship's flights in more recent times, with the aftermath of natural disasters around the world - including earthquakes - and, very often, in places that even the Mighty Wokka could not reach.

This being so, what he disdainfully refers to as "pygmy carriers" (or indeed any warship or RFA) could undoubtedly put up a very good show indeed, if it were deemed appropriate for one or more to be sent. If MGD were to conduct a check on the number of warships and RFAs awarded the Wilkinson Sword of Peace, either individually or jointly, between 1966 and 2005, and the Firmin Sword of Peace since 2005, for providing humanitarian aid around the world, I believe that even he might feel that an apology, or at the least an amendment to at least two posts above, would be in order - not least because both INVINCIBLE and ILLUSTRIOUS have been recipients.:ok:

However, since I fear that his anti Navy bias may be beyond redemption, perhaps I should not hold my breath. But, for the avoidance of doubt, let me add that my admiration of the many inspiring achievements of the mighty Wokka is second to none.

Jack

[Fareastdriver]

If Port au Prince's airfield wasn't so cluttered up with Executive jets shipping in TV reporters and camera crews there would be a lot more room for aircraft carrying essential aid.

[Widger]

Union Jack,

I have got to say, that is one of the most eloquent rebuffs I have ever read on here. No disrespect to MGD but, well done sir!

[Wycombe]

Very true, looking on Google Earth at the available ramp space it looks pretty tight. When I heard Hillary C was due to visit yesterday, I imagined it being cluttered up even further by the likes of a C32 (757) at the very least.

However, the coverage I saw suggested she arrived in some something quite austere - looked like a CN235/295?

I wonder if she then went on to claim that she had braved a "Hot LZ", like that cringeworthy moment in Bosnia :=

[Uncle Ginsters]

At one point Thursday 44 planes were waiting to land at the airport, with no room to unload them and no fuel for departure refills.

Perhaps that's where our recent Op experience might have helped.
Have these other carriers not thought about holding roundtrip fuel for one of the many other unaffected islands nearby instead abandoning dry jets in the stricken airport? :ugh:

Hopefully, this is just press dribble and none of those aircraft needed the fuel anyway.

Uncle G

[hulahoop7]

Wouldn't RFA Argus makea fantastic contribution? Decent helicopter capability and a large hospital?

[minigundiplomat]

UJ,

an excellent defence of your fine service, but it is not the issue. Whatever the RN's record in past humanitarian operations, the facts are:

The USS Carl Vinson is already there.

It is a carrier.

It is also very capable, some may say more so.

It is unable to help very much.

Therefore, the logic of us sending another carrier is fundamentally flawed. The pygmy carrier comment was in large part frustration at the other members of your service who chose not to read any post that doesn't support the 'we need to send a carrier, now whats the question' brigade.


If I am anti-navy, it's only because I have spent so much time working with them.

[Kitbag]

UJ, an interesting rebuff to MGD, but has it occurred to you that the people who make the decisions, ie ministers of the Crown equally lack the level of training you suggest is so important in appreciating any branch of the Services. Indeed, I cannot think of any influential politician of the last 30 years who would have been capable of gaining a place on a Staff course.

[SASless]

UJ.....when one compares a USN Carrier Task Group and its associated Amphib Group....the RN begins to pale in size and capacity. No fault of the members of the RN but simply due to numbers of ships and aircraft deployed with them.

When one considers the USMC deployed over 2,000 Marines and the 82nd Airborne another 3500 Para's.....that alone should give an idea of the amount of help we can provide on very short notice.

As good as the RN is.....it just doesn't have the ships or aircraft to compare with the USN/USMC....and USCG combined.

How many ships from the RN are on the way to Haiti as we speak?

[Gainesy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/IllustriousKingofScandinavia.jpg

Illustrious and the car ferry King of Scandinavia in the background, too small to make much difference?

[CRM Monkey]

Has USS Comfort been deployed?

I think she spends most of her time in dock awaiting deployment and now seems as good a time as any. She was sent out to both Gulf Wars amoungst other jobs and has over 1000 hospital beds.

[GLGNDB]

Set sail yesterday from Baltimore. USN are expecting up to a 6 month deployment according to this article.

Defense.gov News Article: Top Navy Doc Predicts Long USNS Comfort Deployment (http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=57565)

[RileyDove]

I think it's worth pointing out that the USS Carl Vinson was to sea and able to help rapidly. There is little point in sending more carriers as what's effectively needed now is a start on rebuilding what little infrastructure they have i.e cranes at the dock so heavy equipement can be brought in.

[andyy]

May or may not need a Carrier (and I'm sure Carl Vinson can handle ATC issues) but they sure as hell can carry a lot of useful kit. I'm not talking about Jets here but things to help with short & medium term aid as well as the long term reconstruction. Helicopters, Engineer equipment & Plant, Hospital facilities, People, C3, accom etc etc.

From the RN point of view, a CVS may not add that much but I'd have thought that an LPD/ LPH & Argus may be of some help, even if they could not actually get there for a couple of weeks, especially if they were carrying a Cdo Logs Regt & an Engineer Regt.

Disaster relief may not be a core capability for the UKs Armed Forces but it is a damn fine secondary capability and one that the RN (and presumably the other Forces) does train & practice for. It might also be useful in this time of financial threats to demonstrate to the GBP & their PM that the military has other utility other than invading the occasional country. Might even aid our security slightly if we can demonstrate that we don't just kill people.

The Armed Forces are supposed to support the countries Foreign Policy. Nothing wrong in demonstrating that that Foreign Policy is not just an aggressive one.

[tyne]

Ocean, Albion, Bulwark, Mounts Lyme Cardigan and Largs Bay. All ships that really should be able to help in such a situation.

Not forgetting Argus and the Point Class RoRos.

Not sure of their disposition, but now would be a great time for the RN to deploy some of them. Ahead of defence cuts, every service is looking to perform that vital must have role. Helping victims of a disaster like this with out considerable amphib and logistics capability would not only do real good for the people who need help, but do the navy good.

Short of helos? A few 771 cabs and what about HTUFT S61s. The RN uses them a lot. What better time to do some good, save lives, make a difference and prove your worth to anti-military politicians beancounters and the British electorate.

[MarkD]

Is there any reason to say that South American militaries have capacity they can/should be bringing to bear on this more than is being done already?

[rolandpull]

Do we still have a couple of AAC 212's in Belize - Herkable?

[SilsoeSid]

Do we still have a couple of AAC 212's in Belize - Herkable?

Few reports coming through on the situation, but I suspect Guatemala may be a bit more of a concern for the Flight at the moment.

[0497]

For anyone looking to keep track of the USN

YouTube - USNavyVisualNews's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/USNavyVisualNews#g/u)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

tyne. You would have reasonably thought that. Alas, all the ships you mention are either in maintenance or well away from the region, doing their various day jobs. Had this disaster happened 15 years ago, the West Indies Guard Ship would have been on station and kitted out with disaster relief and internal security stores. Having the entire Atlantic covered by just 1 DD/FF doesn’t provide that flexibility.

Of course, 15 years ago, Papa Doc and the Ton Tons wouldn’t have allowed the earth to quake.

[vecvechookattack]

GBZ is absolutely correct of course but as a Navy guy I can't help but feel let down by my lords and masters and feel quite ashamed that with over 80 ships in the Royal Navy and with 23 RFA's it is a little strange that there isn't mention of any of them being on scene.

[indie cent]

Whilst not wishing to steer the thread away from the fine discussion on Naval matters...

I believe the OP was hinting to the fact that there appears to be not a single UK military relief flight.

If ability to contribute to disaster relief is to be a indication of one's military capacity, then quite simply, we have nothing left in the tank. We could not, even if we wished to. It is not possible.

I simply do not buy the argument that the airfield is too congested to bother going, otherwise we may as well quit Helmland right now. BA and Qatar, amongst many others, have managed.

Incidentally, BBC are reporting that USAF have managed to carry out (C-17, I believe) airdrop. 14,000 meals and 15,000 litres of water.

BBC News - US begins airdrops of food and water into Haiti (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8466973.stm)

[vecvechookattack]

Well done the USAF....... So, there is no RN presence...No RAF... Are the Army involved at all ...?

[airborne_artist]

Yet another good reason for maintaining RNR/TA/RAuxAF manning. The civilian skillsets combined with military flexibility mean that HMG could send medics (if they were not all in Afg), civil/electrical power/water engineers, loggies, vehicle/plant engineers, ATC/airfield ops, the whole nine yards.

But Gordon sold the gold for nowt, bet the farm on a never-ending economic miracle, so now we can't afford to train/pay all those good people who'd be out there by now making a difference.

[chopper2004]

Just received this from MoD

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Defence Breaking News

The UK will send Royal Fleet Auxiliary supply ship, RFA Largs Bay, loaded with aid to help with the relief operation in Haiti, International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander has announced today.
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Take it, it has an Merlin on board

[minigundiplomat]

According to the PM at PMQ's,

'we are providing a boat, er, erm, RAF Largs Bay'

What a clown.

[Gainesy]

A week late. Good effort.

If a number of these RFA/RN ships are laid up, is it not beyond the bounds of possibility to keep one of them stored up with disaster relief kit and to be on, say, 48hrs notice to sail? Not as if they're doing anything else.

No doubt there are nautical maintenance issues involved, but it ain't rocket science is it?

[andyy]

Gainsey, I'll bite.

If someone said to you, "I know, we have a few aircraft sitting around in storage at the moment & we need a quick push to relieve the pressure on the troops in 'Stan, lets use them", you'd probably respond by wondering where the manpower was coming from, what about their training/ currency on type, what about the maintenance, what about the logistics support issues, where's the money coming from, if we borrow people to fill this task wo is going to back fill their other tasks, what about harmony rules etc etc.

Same applies to ships that are laid up. Ships at 48 hours notice need to be fully manned, trained & maintained.

Of course, this sort of capability should be available, (lets call it an Amphibious Task Group & then it might be availble for other maritime tasks, too) but we don't have the money for it to be permanently at 48 hours notice.

[Gainesy]

Andy, I'll bite back.:)

In my day, (pulls on slippers) we would have just done it.
Then again, we had the manpower,
we didn't need to borrow folk,
we were trained,
we had the kit and it was generally fit for purpose.
WTF is harmony, summat for bandsmen?

Time for me meds.

[airborne_artist]

Andyy is quite correct - anything much less than a month's notice is effectively a fully-manned, fully-serviceable vessel.

[Mighty Quercus]

Bob A, announces support to Haiti. The deployment of RFA Largs Bay loaded with supplies due to sail in 3 weeks. Recce team to deploy by C130 very soon. Also RMPs to protect FCO staff.

Is this the tip of an iceberg with more personnel to deploy once recce team reports back?

[collbar]

A C-130 your kidding me!! 3 million people to be feed and watered on what, 5 maybe 6 pallets of kit.. I know its only a recce..but isnt it a week late already! Surely we dont need to do our own, just take whats asked for!!

There was a reason the UN wanted C-17s in Banda Acha, They carry s***loads of kit in one go..and can operate unaided for a week or so.

The Pakistanis turned c-130s away durring thier earthquake relief ops, as they took up valuable pan space!!
How many C-130 herk loads do the movers get in return when RAF C-17s carry NATO kit for other countrys..
If the herrick airbridge cant cope without a C-17 there is something seriously wrong!!!..
Thinks " May have answered my own question there!!!" ok rambling finished crawling back under my rock!

[Finnpog]

As much as the deployment of Largs Bay in 3 weeks is a fundamentally good thing - I cannot help but think that this is not so much an unbridled gesture of humanity on behalf of the country - because if it was they could have announced last week that they were prepping it...

...but rather the gesture-politics of a corrupt politician who has been embarrassed into it.

:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

I think that the ship will be on Scene in 3 weeks and will deploy very shortly.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

From Truth Central; Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Royal Navy ship to deploy to Haiti loaded with aid (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/RoyalNavyShipToDeployToHaitiLoadedWithAid.htm)


The UK will send a Royal Fleet Auxiliary supply ship loaded with aid to help with the relief operation in Haiti, International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander has announced today, Wednesday 20 January 2010.

The ship, RFA Largs Bay, is being despatched at the request of the United Nations and will sail from the UK carrying relief supplies that will be needed by the people of Haiti in the weeks and months ahead.

The ship will have the capacity to carry supplies provided by the Department for International Development (DFID) and British and international NGOs (non-governmental organisations), as well as goods purchased with donations from the British public in response to the Disasters Emergency Committee appeal.

The ship, which is due to sail before the end of the month from Marchwood, Southampton, is expected to stay in the region for some weeks to help the UN ferry bulk supplies around small outlying ports in Haiti.

The UK Government has already promised £20m to help those affected by the earthquake.

[vecvechookattack]

Its at about 5:20 that the PM mentions that the RAF are on their way


BBC News - In Full: PM's questions and counter-terror statement (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8469891.stm)

[vecvechookattack]

A Royal Navy flotilla that might have provided relief in the first hours after the Haitian earthquake was withdrawn weeks before the disaster because of budget constraints, the Ministry of Defence said last night.

Naval sources told The Times that the unpublicised cut marked the first time that the Royal Navy has had a significant gap in cover in the Caribbean since the 17th century.

The force, which usually includes a Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel and a frigate, is deployed in Caribbean waters to provide support to British overseas territories, particularly during the May-December hurricane season, and to support Britain’s counter-narcotics role in the region.

During the summer, Prince William was deployed on board the frigate Iron Duke in the Caribbean.


However, the fleet replenishment ship Fort George was ordered back to Britain in October and the Iron Duke arrived back last month.

Neither was replaced, though the Navy has previously maintained a rolling deployment of Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels in the region to provide disaster relief. When Fort George arrived in the Caribbean in June it was as a replacement to HMS Largs Bay, which had provided cover in the region since the end of the previous hurricane season in November 2008.

Naval sources said that the vessels could have provided rapid assistance in the chaotic first 48 hours after the earthquake. Fort George has a large flight deck and can carry three helicopters while Iron Duke has a Lynx helicopter.

Fort George is designated as one of the Navy’s disaster relief vessels. “The ship holds stores and equipment to conduct humanitarian assistance and disaster relief ashore; with the capacity to evacuate victims if required,” according to the Royal Navy website.

During its deployment, the crew of Fort George undertook disaster relief exercises in Anguilla, the Turks and Caicos Islands and Montserrat.

In a statement last night the Ministry of Defence said: “The Royal Navy maintains a maritime presence in the Caribbean to reassure overseas territories. This task is mandatory during the hurricane season — when our assets are most likely to be required — which runs from June 1 to November 30.

“This year, as part of a package of savings measures identified to enable the MoD to remain within ’09-10 budgets, cover outside the hurricane period has been temporarily withdrawn.”

[Finnpog]

That's a cough, then.

[0497]

Press briefing by US commander, from what I heard:

120 flights into Port au Prince
1400 delayed
10,000 personel offshore
68 helicopters using ships as a base

United States Southern Command (USSOUTHCOM) - Fact File (http://www.southcom.mil/AppsSC/factFiles.php?id=138)

[SASless]

More like 20,000 troops/ships crew on site.....not counting those based outside Haiti/DR.

24th MEU (less Osprey's) enroute to reinforce 22nd MEU (with CH-53's).

USAF C-17's from all over the country are being called in.....even the training guys from Altus AFB are stuck in now.

That means two Amphib Groups, One Carrier Task force, various indepenent USN and USCG ships and aircraft are involed now along with USAF airlift assets.

At the risk of sounding snooty....which I am not.....really.....the USN effort almost equals the entire number of ships in the active RN Fleet doesn't it?

Makes one understand how drastic the RN cuts have been over the years.

Not only was the RFA and Frigate group pulled out but did the Falklands group go un-manned this year as well? At what point will they realize they have cut too deep?

[Mr C Hinecap]

At the risk of sounding snooty....which I am not.....really.....the USN effort almost equals the entire number of ships in the active RN Fleet doesn't it?

So what? Comparing apples and oranges a bit. Compared to nearly every military on the planet the US have more in one arm etc than country XXXXXX has in the entire fleet / army / navy. :rolleyes:

collbar - many very good reasons to recce - I'd not want to deploy anyone without it.

[groundfloor]

Saw a video of yanks running around with box`s of drinking water - where I come from we drilled holes and installed manual pumps or windmills - yanks might have acres of kit but seems they are short on DF (common sense)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I believe that you are assuming that the ground water hasn't been contaminated in the upheaval. Now, had you argued reverse osmosis sets ........

[Mr C Hinecap]

To drill holes you need geo survey, testing, drilling rig, drill team, pumps, filtration, treatment, storage. You then need to distribute.

To distribute bottled water, you need to move and distribute.

I know which one I'd rely on in the 1st phase and which one I'd look at once I stopped the population dehydrating.

[vecvechookattack]

Is Largs bay taking any organic RW with it? Lynx ? Merlin maybe ? Green or Grey Merlin ?

[con-pilot]

Saw a video of yanks running around with box`s of drinking water - where I come from we drilled holes and installed manual pumps or windmills - yanks might have acres of kit but seems they are short on DF (common sense)

Yeah right, there are drilling rigs all over Haiti, just laying around. Do you have a clue just how long it takes to find a water table, survey it, set up the drilling rig/s, drill to the water, then install a distribution system, even if you are just filling water bottles?

Not to mention what would happen to this newly discovered water well site when the aftershocks hit.

For some reason I don't believe that it is us Yanks that are short on common sense regarding this matter. :rolleyes:

[x213a]

This is just deja vu of the Tsunami. Not in terms of the tragedy but in the expressed attitudes of all the commentators.
Medicins sans frontieres (medical mercinaries) are now getting all vocal about the Americans. MSF seem to think they hold the monopoly on relief efforts, even if many of them are little more than first aid trained gap year students and backpackers seeking to gain kudos from the experience. Aid worker snobbery, ridiculous as it may sound, appears to be a growing problem.

[SASless]

Naw Con! Pure case of Penis envy! That or he is still miffed over us being "Ex-Colonials".:E

yanks might have acres of kit but seems they are short on DF (common sense)

[larssnowpharter]

Medicins sans frontieres

There may well be room for 'Logistics Without Frontiers'.

It is typical in these sort of operations for the airhead to become a choke point.

My first involvement was a long time back in the '70s and it seems nothing much has changed.

In this instance I would let the US Military do the command and control. The operation has become a logistics operation and - in my experience - nobody does it better.

Pity that some see it necessary to make political capital out of it all.