The Moderators of this forum need to grow the hell up

[pondoklabu]

Dear moderators

I have been a long time watcher and occasional participant of the PPrune forum.
I class my self as a professional aviator that has seen the better of 30 years in a tough industry that's seen the occasional mud thrown in all directions. But I have noticed with more and more regularity that the moderators of this forum are becoming more and more precious when it comes to certain posts, that they either disagree with on a moral grounds or on professional ones.
well may I respectfully say grow the hell up, this is a open forum listed for open frank and DEMOCRATIC views even if you don't agree with them.
The latest was a posting about Jetstar vietnam and and their blatant lack of safety standards as reported by the media, yes I know there was the assertion to connect the story with Jetstar Australia, however canning the post straight away when it had some very good points too make was very short sighted indeed. Isn't up too the general population to decide if a poster goes too far, I can recall on many occasions when fellow professional aviators on this very forum have pulled people into line over ridiculous statements, we don't need over zealous moderators to stiffen free speech in this very rare free open forum about aviation.

The moderators should use his or her power as a last resort not jump in straight away to wield their mighty internet sword.
PLease back off and allow democratic voices be heard, even if you don't agree with them on a personal level.

[framer]

Good point considering the free speech issues in Vietnam itself. JStar Pacific is a very very different airline to jetstar Australia and I'm sure that would have been pointed out very quickly by many of our regulars and an interesting discussion started.

[parabellum]

pondoklabu - Hope you don't mind me suggesting you mug-up on the laws of libel, as practiced and applied in the UK, USA, Australia for example and the responsibilities of a bulletin board owner/administrator to ensure that no libellous comments are allowed to remain in public view any longer than a reasonable time to allow for the board operators to act to remove them. If libellous comments are allowed to remain then the BB owners and operators become liable in law and that could cost millions.

By deleting an entire offending post the Mods are encouraging posters to do their own editing before posting.

[empacher48]

Yeah.. Pprune ain't a democracy and the mods do a good job to prevent the site being sued for any defamatory or malicious content.. I'd hate to have to start paying an annual membership here because of legal costs or court imposed penalties..

Aviation already has had a enough of that! (Thank you to the litigators in the USA)

[Skittles]

The law doesn't apply on the internet.

Well, at least not in that capacity.

[parabellum]

Skittles - Please quote verse and chapter on that, there have already been cases in court and precedent is set.

[Skittles]

There's also thousands of child porn sites, millions of people downloading pirated content etc.

The law on the internet is a fickle thing.

I'm fairly sure that in just about every thread on here regarding an individual/organisation etc I can find a post that could arguably be construed as libel. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be responsible with what they post, and that the moderators shouldn't, well, moderate...but if you jump behind the libel shield half of the threads on this site go missing.

It would become the Professional Pilots Network. No space for rumours :ok:

[Crescent]

There is presently a defamation case being played out in the Australian courts over posting on the Internet - site name withheld so I am not guilty of spamming - the results are very much up in the air and it has been expensive for the web master. If the suppression of opinion and free speech troubles you, we only have the litigious, thin skinned progenitors of these cases to thank. The mods are simply stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[SilverSleuth]

pondoklabu
Have a scotch and a chill Pill mate. No one makes you read the forum. Don't like the rules or how it is run then leave. It will still go on with or without you.

[bonvol]

this is a open forum listed for open frank and DEMOCRATIC views

I know where you are coming from but I think even Danny once posted that Pprune is not a democratic forum and if you didn't like it you could ark off, or words to that effect :E

[Chronic Snoozer]

Perhaps posters are the ones you should be venting your spleen at.

[4Greens]

I'm totally with the mods who do a good job in sometimes difficult circumstances.

On another point, never ever give volunteers a hard time

[adsyj]

It always amazes me that people who post on forums owned and run by somebody (or some company) think it is a democracy.

Mate they should of taught you as kid, right or wrong the umpires decision is final.

Go to www.themoderatorsarepickingonme.com (http://www.themoderatorsarepickingonme.com) and join like minded whingers.

[tail wheel]

The last time I checked, Vietnam was part of South East Asia?

PPRuNe has a specific forum:

South Asia and the Far East (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-45/)
News and views on the fast growing and changing aviation scene on the planet.

I'm sure any matter relating to Jetstar Vietnam will be very welcome in the PPRuNe South Asia and the Far East Forum.

This Forum is for:

Airline and RPT issues in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Perhaps next time you will give some thought for the real reason Moderators take the action they do? :=

:mad:

To those who expressed appreciation for the voluntary work carried out PPRuNe Moderators - thank you! :ok:

[mmciau]

Here is a link to the Australian High Court decision where Dow Jones defamed Joseph Gutnik in 2002.

It relates to use of the Internet as a medium.

http://www.hcourt.gov.au/media/dowjones.pdf

As i understand it from this decision that absolute care must be exercised when making a comment on the internet.

Mike

[mmciau]

Further reference to my above post - The Appeal

Mike

Dow Jones and Company Inc v Gutnick [2002] HCA 56; 210 CLR 575; 194 ALR 433; 77 ALJR 255 (10 December 2002) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2002/56.html)

[Eastwest Loco]

Pondy

The dusty and stressed Mods you refer to have to watch out for Danny's website.

The buck stops there.

This is an anonymous worldwide site, but libelous material published here is the problem of the owner. Hence what may have seen to be an over reaction to what could have been a dangerous post if allowed to go unchallenged could turn around and bite to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

Are you going to put your hand into your pocket to cover Court costs for Danny and the Moderators if someone takes exception? If that is a yes, then feel free to carry on.

If not consider you are on a United Airlines domestic flight.

Sit down, shut up and we will tell you when you are there.

Participation in these fora is a privelege and not a right, so what the Boss Cockies say is law.

It is fine to disagree and say so. Don't get me wrong, but do not lose sight of the parameters and potential dangers the Mods and Danny are presented with. Erring on the side of safety is not really erring as it keeps our place live.

Best regards Pondy and everyone

EWL:ok:

[Cactusjack]

I think there is a subliminal message in Pondoklabu's post. He/she commenced the thread with 'Dear moderators' .
The word 'dear' means beloved,or highly valued. So it is quite plausible that in this particular thread the 'poster' when using the word 'dear' is actually expressing some self confusion within one's self.There is a possible struggle between distain and annoyance with the moderators mixed with an appreciation, fondness, even a reverence for the mods.

Furthermore, this hypothesis may mean that pondoklabu's post should be understood from the perspective of the poster's inner turmoil, and compassion, understanding and perhaps even morale support and a cyber hug should be offered up to our friend in need.

xx

[tipsy2]

Numerous responses on this thread have correctly identified the D&G Mods as hard working and reasonable. Some of the other forums are not so well blessed.

Reference has been made to Danny and 'his' rules, it is my understanding that the trainset is now wholly owned, controlled and situated in the dear old US of A and has been for a number of years. Hopefully this accounts for the non intrusion and pontifications from self styled lofty heights that previously sullied the D&G forums.

As to the title 'Dear', yes some can be very dear and expensive to inbibe with:ok:

tipsy:yuk::yuk:furball:yuk::yuk:

[Buster Hyman]

Yeah! And while we're at it, I don't like the colour!!!

[lowerlobe]

Yeah! And while we're at it, I don't like the colour!!!
Hey Buster....I thought you were visually impaired...:oh:

At least after closing time at any rate....:E

[AerocatS2A]

Concerns about libel aside, this is a privately owned and operated forum that is no more subject to the concepts of free speech or democracy than a restaurant. You are somehow confusing government with private entities.

[Buster Hyman]

Harsh Lobee...:=...accurate, but harsh.

[gutso-blundo]

The funniest part is how Google Ads screen the site and attempt to provide relevant advertising. The result? An ad at the bottom of the page for Defamation Lawyers... :D

[pondoklabu]

Firstly, thankyou everyone for your replies and views. Gauging the average reaction of the forum collection, the majority believe the moderators do hard job under a difficult situation with the constant threat of being sued.

Well I bow to the over all opinion and say if you are happy with that then I will be too.

But may I also add, just because something is free and run by volunteers, doesn't mean we can never be judgmental or negative. In the hope what we are saying may improve the overall quality of the site.

The Mod that goes by the name Tailwheel commented by saying the Jetstar Vietnam post( which started this whole thread) was pulled not because of any libel threat but because of bookkeeping issues. Tailwheel commented the thread should have been listed in the south East Asia forum not the Aus section, this is despite Jetstar Vietnam being owned by an Australian company and Australian executives being investigated by authorities. I strongly disagree with tailwheel, the Jetstar Vietnam thread has a place in the Aus section of PPrune and to shut down the thread after only a couple of replies is part of the problem.

This site is not about the moderators its about the people who participate in the forums and I believe ( apparently in the minority) that the mods should just pull back a bit and loosen up, sometimes the best moderators are the other participants in the forum who reply to these threads themselves.

[DutchRoll]

Interesting thread comments.

As far as Mods go, my experience is that PPrune mods are very reasonable and allow a wide variety of viewpoints. There are countless ideologically inclined website forums out there which are ruthless in suppressing certain types of commentary which contradicts their narrow views. The bottom line is that mods here are trying to tread a fine line between allowing posters to speak their mind, and keeping PPrune from being shutdown or Danny from being bankrupted.

Quite frankly, over the last 10 years or so I've been more amazed at some of the things they actually allow to be posted on the website, rather than the stuff they don't! :eek: But then, it's easy to demonstrate low intelligence or complete irrationality without actually defaming someone. :hmm:

The only place you're going to get truly free speech on the internet is if you start your own website. Then you can make whatever rules you want. However defamation laws are defamation laws, and it doesn't really matter what medium you use. All it takes is for a big company with deep pockets to be offended at something on this website, and Danny's bank balance starts to look very bad if he doesn't remove it immediately (even if the legal action is frivolous and without foundation).

[Wiley]

Surprised to see that no one (Obie?) has yet mentioned that one of the Mods here on Dunnunda seems unable to abide any mention of That-Year-We-Dare-Not-Mention-Here, at least no comment critical of what an outsider would call the winning side, particularly what some would call the brave soldiers of that winning side.

A case of the victor writes the history books?

[tail wheel]

I'm not getting the message across here! :ugh:

Tailwheel commented the thread should have been listed in the south East Asia forum not the Aus section, this is despite Jetstar Vietnam being owned by an Australian company and Australian executives being investigated by authorities. I strongly disagree with tailwheel, the Jetstar Vietnam thread has a place in the Aus section of PPRuNe and to shut down the thread after only a couple of replies is part of the problem.

The deleted thread had the ludicrous and totally misleading title:
Qantas is a dangerous airline

"....Jetstar Pacific is actually part owned (27%) by Qantas, and not by Jetstar."

27% equity constitutes an investment; it does not constitute Qantas or Australian corporate control.

There is already a thread running:
Aussie Jetstar workers held in Vietnam

Which does contain Australian content and relevance.

There was no libel issue - unless Qantas took umbrage at the ludicrous, misleading title of the deleted thread. The thread clearly was not relevant to this forum and I did not move the thread to the South East Asian Forum as the thread title was totally misleading and inappropriate.

I class my self as a professional aviator that has seen the better of 30 years in a tough industry...

I don't see the relevance of that statement in respect to Moderating an Australian aviation forum, but if it is any consolation, the three Dunnunda Mods collectively have around seventy five years aviation and airline industry experience and collectively around thirty years experience moderating the PPRuNe Dunnunda forums.

The law doesn't apply on the internet.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but libel and defamation laws do apply to an internet bulletin board. Had you been around a bit longer than only the last fourteen days, you may be aware of previous libel action against PPRuNe and it's registered users.

Everytime you post on PPRuNe (or access or post on any internet site) your IP address is recorded. This forum is not anonymous when Courts order disclosure of user IP details.

[Howard Hughes]

Keep up the good work Taily et al, some people will just never get it!;)

Wiley do you really believe that anybody actually 'won'?

[Skittles]

Tailwheel you wouldn't be in tabloid journalism would you?

[C441]

http://img1.jurko.net/avatar_3629.gif


Damn appropriately given on this occasion.

Keep up the good work.

[AerocatS2A]

But may I also add, just because something is free and run by volunteers, doesn't mean we can never be judgmental or negative. In the hope what we are saying may improve the overall quality of the site.
I think most people welcome level headed constructive criticism but they are free to choose not to make the suggested changes.

[airsupport]

Although I do NOT always agree with everything they do, as ''tail wheel'' can confirm ;) they do a very difficult job and as volunteers, so give them a break. :ok:

Also as regards just who can and cannot see you, this was posted on another bulletin board just yesterday. :eek:

--------------------------------------------------------------

Just wanted to let you know that the New Homeland Security Bill has passed.

Things will be different now and Internet surfing as you know it will be tracked by what the FBI calls a 'nonintrusive method.' The FBI says you will hardly notice anything different.

[Capt Claret]

The FBI says you will hardly notice anything different.

Except for the knock on the door and the influx of armed troops, after you've posted something deemed "unacceptable". :}

[airsupport]

Except for the knock on the door and the influx of armed troops, after you've posted something deemed "unacceptable".

But you will hardly notice. ;)

[onetrack]

There has never been a totally unregulated forum that hasn't ended up, self-destructing in an orgy of internet graffitti, libel and slander, and straight-out garbage.

All forums need moderating, it's a proven fact - just as society needs Police and Laws for civil and peaceful behaviour.

The forum is owned by the webmaster or the group or organisation responsible for setting it up -and they take the legal hits if someone takes offence at unproven allegations being posted, and hires a Rottweiler Lawyer to get redress.

I'm a moderator of another forum - it's a thankless task, and one has to regularly educate users, to THINK before posting.

The fact that many forum users feel the need to add some turps (alcohol) to themselves, before posting off a missive detailing a personal grievance they feel the need to air, and you can see the extent of the problem that develops. Roll on the Moderators, you are needed.

[Buster Hyman]

You still haven't addressed the serious issue of colour Taily... :confused:

Keep up the good work Taily et al, some people will just never get it!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif
Sycophant! :rolleyes:


:E

[tail wheel]

Buster

We've been promised site renovations for more months than I care to remember............

Personally, I'd settle for the site owners fixing the multitude of &%$#@ problems we've had over the past year, including database errors; slow access; time outs; date stamp errors et al :mad:

The Mods have been collectively campaigning for site improvements for many months and some of the Mod's posts in our Mod House forum would earn instant banning if published in our "open" forums.... There is a lot more to PPRuNe Moderating than than simply reading all the posts in this forum each day!

Despite the site problems over the past year or so, this site continues to grow at an ever increasing rate: Members: 285,171.

On January 22, 2000, PPRuNe registered it's 10,000th Member - a growth rate of 2,851% in the last ten years! :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

If I knew what you were tallking about Buster, I would probably agree...:E

[skybed]

IPO is coming when?;)

[bonvol]

Since Pprune is now owned by Internet Brands, a Nasdaq listed company presumably the shareholders expect to make a profit from this site like any other business.

Are Mods then unpaid workers and why?

Maybe they are building up their volunteer Mod hours to crack their first job in the Moderating bigtime, whatever that may be :eek:

Could moderating Pprune be the internet equivalent of being an UGAL ? :E

[DEFCON4]

The mods in this part of PPRune do a fantastic job.They are both fair and reasonable.
Try posting elsewhere like the Cabin Crew forum and you will come across a mod who did an apprenticeship with the Gestapo

[tail wheel]

I'm sorry ..... couldn't resist - I re-posted DEFCON4's post:

"The mods in this part of PPRuNe do a fantastic job.They are both fair and reasonable.
Try posting elsewhere like the Cabin Crew forum and you will come across a mod who did an apprenticeship with the Gestapo."

In our "Line of thre day" thread in the Mod's Forum..... :} :} :} :} :}

I didn't post a user name but if the Dragon Mod sees your post, I'd keep away from the CC Forum for awhile DEFCON4. :E :E

:} :}

[DEFCON4]

I was banned from the CC Forum for having a consistently *anti Qantas attitude*

[tail wheel]

From the general content of the excessive number of Qantas/Jetstar threads in Dunnunda, I suspect you may be amongst friends here ...... :ugh:

Sorry I can't help you - our mystical powers are restricted to Dunnunda forum. But the Dragon Mod really is a sweet, lovable lady and I'm happy to make representations to her on your behalf? :} :}

[Jenna Talia]

Who moderates the mod's forum? :}

[Worrals in the wilds]

Except for the knock on the door and the influx of armed troops, after you've posted something deemed "unacceptable". http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

But you will hardly notice. ;)


...because in Australia, they'll probably go to the wrong house. :E

Off to the gulag for me.

I've been active on three bulletin boards and lurked on a few others, and IMHO the moderating in DG&P is reasonable and generally strikes the right balance. PPruNe deals with people's livelihoods and businesses. It can get a lot more heated and potentially litigious than a pure hobby board.

[Pinky the pilot]

Seems to me to be a case of 'the usual factions.' About half are 'afore' the Mods and half are 'agin' them, so by my reckoning they have been and are getting it about right!:ok:

Who moderates the mod's forum?

I've wondered about that too!:}

[parabellum]

Moderators?..............................

[YoDawg]

Try posting elsewhere like the Cabin Crew forum and you will come across a mod who did an apprenticeship with the Gestapo

They developed that attitude in dealing with the hardcore morons who frequented the forum. They were eventually thrown out (no prizes for guessing were they ended up) but I think the mods are still a bit touchy...

[DEFCON4]

Effectively Qantas CC have been kicked out of this forum.
Any post even remotely associated with QF is deleted.
Zero tolerance

[divingduck]

You say that like it's a bad thing?:}




sorry, hat, coat...

[Brian Abraham]

Cabin Crew forum and you will come across a mod who did an apprenticeship with the Gestapo
Perhaps a result of working the back of the aircraft and not seats 0A and 0B. :uhoh:

[skol]

I've put a few posts on here I thought were relevant, but have either been taken to task or had the posts deleted.
Pprune has become something I look at extremely rarely because as other posters have succinctly noted, it's not a democracy, like China.

[Wod]

I'm happy here.

People with narrow, industrial, agendas can be boring. But I don't have to engage them, and they have a right to be here.

Count me a contented PPRuNer:ok:

[Fantome]

. . . . . consider you are on a United Airlines domestic flight.

Sit down, shut up and we will tell you when you are there.

Participation in these fora is a privilege, not a right. What the Boss Cockies say is law.



Spot on, Ron. And maaate . . ..love the hat marked 'TRAVEL AGENT'.

[UDH]

You say something the Moderators don’t like and your post is edited.
You call them out for it and you’re removed from the thread.
You hide under the title "protecting the forum" but it is an open forum, your actions are exactly that of full censorship... the red army would be proud.
Moderators in this forum????? Nazi's of the forum would be closer to the truth.
Now am I also destined for the Gulag???????

[Tidbinbilla]

UDH, your first post was edited because it was considered offensive. You were asked not to get personal, ie "play the ball, not the man" in the edit.

You ignored this request and posted again in a similar tone. This post was removed, and your privileges removed from that thread for a period of time.

If you are incapable/unwilling to use common decency towards other members of this forum, you are free to leave. Choose to ignore legitimate moderator requests and expect consequences.

Your choice.

Posts are not edited/deleted because, as you put it "You say something the Moderators don’t like and your post is edited". If we find a post offensive/unsavoury, it's highly likely most other members will too, and we act accordingly. If people like yourself abided by the rules to which they agreed prior to signing up with PPRuNE, then us mods would be out of a job, and the site would look after itself.:}

TID.

[Fantome]

The Terms and Conditions laid out clearly on this site, in any reasonable
community, would mean all users appreciate the privilege and not
descend to personal abuse.

By accessing this Site, you accept, without limitation or qualification, the following Terms and Conditions. You are only authorized to use the Site and its services if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to these Terms and Conditions. If you do NOT accept the Terms and Conditions, then please discontinue your use of the Site.

(Howard, I hear you, cobber.)

[UDH]

Tidbinpissa,
If my post was offence please explain: offensive to whom?
The person I replied to: oh yes it was, as I found his/her post totally offensive.
Was their post removed?
So you found my post offensive? And therefore removed it.
That makes you and the person who made the original post (should I put in here i.e. your mate)
Total: 2
Others: 0
members: 280 000
Oh my god….
I offended 0.000 of a bees appendage (that’s not very much in case that wasn’t clear… see how I go to great lengths to make myself clear)

Q. has anyone else complained or replied stating they found said post offensive?
Of course not, as you took it upon yourself to conduct a measure of full censorship prior to that opportunity being realised.
The red army statement thus is applicable.

But we shall continue, “play the ball not the man?”(hidden in the edit)
Did I heed your warnings? No offense Mr “rules to which they agreed” but if I am going to warn someone I will say exactly that and not leave it in some cryptic form. After perusal of the “Rules” I have yet to find where it says cryptic Egyptian hieroglyphics mean “YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED” or do I just “Choose to ignore legitimate moderator requests and expect consequences”
Legitimate? “in accordance with established rules”
Once again did anyone other than yourself and the person who made the original offensive statements lodge a complaint?????
NO!
Therefore full censorship has been invoked.

“expect consequences”
wholly crap mate? What does that mean?????
What, you are going to **** on me with your big cyber stick?
Take a chill pill and have a look in the mirror.. You are not the TERMINATOR.

You mention “If you are incapable/unwilling to use common decency towards other members of this forum”
Common decency??? Come on mate.. A clown gets on here and reply’s to someone’s post stating legal action and the like (I would quote more but I am Banned from that thread…Moderator censorship and all) he/she deserves a serve.. and if you can’t see that your just as much of a dill!

Out of a job????
Let’s see … dictionary …. Job…. (Looking….searching…)
“a specific task done as part of the routine of one's occupation or for an agreed price”

Get ya hand off it!
Do you get paid for this censorship????
Is this your occupation?????
NO
NO

Therefore this is NOT your job.
You have lied and placed mistruths on the pprune site and therefore you shall be BANNED !!!!

Signed: NEW MODERATOR
(i.e. not a dill)

[tail wheel]

Signed: NEW MODERATOR
(i.e. not a dill)

Two statements, both incorrect. Not a good score! :=

I'm sure UDH will find a forum somewhere that is more to his liking! Unfortunately it won't be PPRuNe.

I also think this thread has reached it's use by date. Thanks for the constructive comments, appreciated by all the Dunnunda Mods.