Pay to Fly - Classification

[Dreamshiner]

Just out of interest, at what stage would the majority of PPRuNers reading this class someone as a PTFer? Just been reading on another thread how the term "PTF" is banded about when I imagine everyone who has attained a fATPL in the past 10 years has had to contribute in some form.

So PTF ..... at what stage do we sneer:

1./ After £50-80k CPL/ME/IR
2./ After £20k Jet TR?
3./ After £5-£15 Buying hours on type?

We do an aspirational job, no shortage despite the downturn emerging from Gatwick with a nice shiny blue A5 wallet.

Don't agree with things in our industry at present (is there anyone who does that isn't an accountant) but I can't see how it can be resolved, if I did, I'd have a temple erected and dedicated to me which all pilots could leave offering and and chant prayers to my omnipotence.

[hollingworthp]

Good question.

I think 1 & 2 are generally very difficult to avoid but at this stage you are not filling the seat of someone who would otherwise be feeding his/her family while being paid to be there.

3 however .....

[BlueVolta]

Option 1 is almost unavoidable, but still there are some sponsorships available.

From Option 2, I think your are getting in the PTF zone...:{

[Human Factor]

Possibly 2, although there can be mitigating circumstances.

However, if you want to devalue the profession, go for 3.

[Coffin Corner]

2/ Why a jet TR? Surely the type of TR is highly irrelevant?

[Man Flex]

Generally speaking a graduate from a university course has some expenditure and this is traditionally accepted as being necessary to gain the qualification.

However I know of no other industry where on receipt of basic qualification the candidate is required to invest many more thousands of pounds/euros to basically supplement the would-be employers profits!

[despegue]

The line IS VERY CLEAR here!
DO NOT PAY TO WORK!!

This must end. Now.

If they would do so in my company, there would be an immediate strike, by ALL pilots until the management gave in, and believe me, if you strike they will give in. This is one case where we can have the public supporting us, and management WILL be described as the devil by the press. SO STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE to all working in airlines involved!!!

[Gligg]

number 2 maybe, number 3 without a doubt.

I wonder how many doctors pay the hospital they work at, or artists who pay the art collector to take their work, or teachers who pay a couple of hundred to the school principal each morning.

For those considering it, ask if you can accrue frequent flyer miles for each sector, seeing you have paid for a ticket :-)

[Microburst2002]

I can't sneer to number 1 category because I belong to it.
I sneer to number 2 pilots when they do it just to see what happens after doing it. But I can't sneer to those who partly pay the TR after being selected for the job, as I, I must confess, belong to that category.
As for category 3... I am convinced that this practice is not legal. And it puts in jeopardy my job.

So, not because of pilots' honour, profession or passenger safety, but for my job, the one that allows me and my familiy to survive is that I deeply hate category 3, and I will fight for my job.

Wouldn't you fight for your job...?

... Or are you going to fight for mine?

[Guttn]

To make things very very crystal clear; the only 2 times you shall pay to operate any aircraft is during initial training (up to CPL/fATPL and the FI course) and if you want to fly GA for recreational purposes. All other instances where you pay money to sit in an aircraft you had better be on the passenger side of the cockpit door.

Sneering at 2 and 3 then. It doesn`t even have to be a jet TR, as there are many companies operating both TP and piston who want you to pay. Doesn`t matter at all:=

It looks like there is a bit of goo old fashioned uprising about to happen in the near future. Not a day too soon. :D Hopefully the larger, international unions will hear us calling and go into talks about changing, or amending, legislations.

[angelorange]

Don't old your breath for BALPA to act.....

[charlie83]

Well my tuppence..

I think the line is reasonably clear..

1 and 2 are for the sake of things, TRAINING. At no point during your TR are the airlines making any real money out of you. There are no pax behind you, no revenue etc.

Although I went down route 1 and 2 (2 for my second airline - the 1st actually paid and bonded me!) I still felt bad about 2.

So with respect, I don't see how you can class 2 as PTF even though as said, I don't agree with it.

3...well that's blindingly obvious.

All the best.

[Puppet Master]

No question 2 and 3. Never pay for your type!

I can understand why people do it but it is still PTF!!! It is the Airline that is responsible for your TR. I was pissed off when I had to pay for my MCC!!!!!!

Bonding is one thing... Paying for your type is just wrong. :mad::ugh:

[CirrusF]

Do "pay to fly" pilots actually need a CPL? Surely all you need is a PPL/IRME and a TR?

[Haran_Banjo]

1 and 2 are for the sake of things, TRAINING. At no point during your TR are the airlines making any real money out of you. There are no pax behind you, no revenue etc.


If we think in that way, also paying for a line training is itself a training. Airliners offer you an opportunity to train yourself on how to get experience . An experience you might be unable to make for different reasons in another way.

Training = it's correct to pay, it's not clear. Everything could fall under the training shadow.

[Bruce Wayne]

No question 2 and 3. Never pay for your type!


So being bonded for a period on a reduced salary isn't paying for a TR ?

[Boing7117]

Being bonded isn't such a big deal or a major problem. I have sympathy with an airline as a business needing to get value for money on what they spend within the business. Of course, by investing an amount of money in the pilot to operate their aircraft, they'd need to see a return. I have no problem with 3/5 year bonds when you're talking about an investment of between £10,000 and £20,000.

I do however agree with Bruce Wayne about having to accept a reduced salary as well. This is unreasonable and is not fair at all.

[Haran_Banjo]

:}. SO STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE to all working in airlines involved!!!:}:}:}

Ah,ah,ah, I am sorry I try to don't laugh at you but it's quite hard. So once you paid your T/R to try to get you first job you didn't think about the possibility you were actually giving your help to destroy this business. Now you couldn't move to the left seat for whatever reasons, you ask to make a strike all together. Uhmmmm !!! :suspect: Darling, I understand yourself. I am really sorry you couldn't escape your destiny once more like you did before, unfortunately your time came and you have to accept it. Many others has fallen into this modern aviation hell but now the water level got your position and even if you moved to rise up a bit more into the dry area this time you couldn't do nothing to avoid to be wet. :\ I am sorry but you have to accept it. Today this is a jungle and there is no mercy, you probably don't deserve to loose your right seat for a person paying T/R+ line training but... This is the actual situation. Anyway, at least if you end in a supermarket you won't pay your training and uniform, be optimistic . May be you will love it !:ok:

[Vanpilot]

All good comments, but who's listening to them... Nobody I'm guessing. I think the time we have spent on here moaning might better be spent writting letters to our local MP's and trying to raise the issue with people that can do something about it. It's election time so hundreds of Pilots trying to make one point at the same time may have a chance of getting the ear of the right person.

Not sure how they start those petitions but I'm sure somebody on here does :ok:

[Puppet Master]

Bruce,

Sorry when did I ever say 'on a reduced salary' ?????? As others have said being bonded so that a company can make sure you're not going to dash off to something better I think is reasonable, but when the company try and recoup the cost by reducing your salary for the first 3/4 years IS wrong.

I'm on my third jet type... never paid... never will...

[Bruce Wayne]

Puppet Master,

Don't put words into my mouth. I did not say you said that, as well you know.

[Dreamshiner]

Vanpilot,

You can post petitions on the number 10 website. Maybe the best option due to the fact we are all over the place and getting signatures on a clipboard may be tricky. Don't know exactly how to go about it but why not start a thread on here to ask, getting suggestions on the wording and highlight/advertise it to fellow PPRuNer's.

[Puppet Master]

Bruce,

When you quote a person and then respond... It is an implication that you are referring to the person whom you are quoting. If this was not your intention then do not use quotes.

[Bruce Wayne]

Puppet Master,

you asserted an opinion / position.

I posed a question relating to that assertion; You then responded, asserting that I said something that I did not.

The question at the end of the sentence denotes that it is a question, the use of a quotation denotes that it is a question relating to the quotation.

If you do not want someone to ask a question to clarify your assertion, then don't post.

[Dreamshiner]

I'm wearing a light blue helmet now.

This isn't adding to the thread, please continue via PM's with each other to resolve.

Cheers

[Vanpilot]

dreamshiner.......have seen the web site just need wording.....new thread maybe????

[Bruce Wayne]

Dreamshiner,

too right :ok:

[Vanpilot]

Thoughts on the wording of and content of a petition against pay to fly schemes and the general state of our industry.....use of contracts like brookfields and the like. Or anything else you feel maybe of interest. What are the issues with pay to fly schemes and who does it affect? Are people finding there jobs replaced with experienced Pilots from abroad. Are experienced Pilots from the uk being replaced with low hour cheaper Pilots.

Your thoughts on what are the main issues are, that as a proffession we face and that could be acted upon by the goverment.

Fire away

[Dreamshiner]

Mate crack on, I'm not a moderator, you don't need my permission to start a new one up

[Hudson Bay]

Let No10 know how much valuable revenue they are losing due to the practice. Even the guys on Brookfield and Parc Contracts are defrauding the tax man as you cannot be self employed and work for just one company.

In a nutshell you have to let them know that they are being taken to the cleaners by UK and Irish Airlines.

[Hudson Bay]

Better put by A and C

The thing we have to think about is return on investment, if an airline EMPLOYS you and pays for your type rating they should be able to ensure that they get some return on that investment.
A training bond is an acceptable way of ensuring return on investment IF the bond reflects the true cost of the training and the cost diminishes at a monthly rate over say two years.

The problem we have is that pilots are paying up front for ratings and then being taken on as CONTRACTORS, as a contractor under UK tax law you are required to have more than one sorce of income and be able to determin when you do the work. Now what would be the attitude of Easy Jet (lets say) if a contractor said sorry I am working for another airline today? and did not turn up!

It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!

[Vanpilot]

Nice angle

Can someone that is currently on a Brookfields contract tell us how it works and why its not been stopped already? Is it a case of being scared to be the first Pilot to take it on and put your job on the line. Although I guess they would say your a contractor and just not call you to fly again.

So first point is airlines driving down conditions and using schemes/ agencies to avoid Taxes.

[go around flaps15]

What does Brookfield have to do with pay to fly schemes?


You pay for the type rating(Ryanair). The Brookfield contract comes into play when you WORK for Ryanair and get PAID.:ugh: It is a paid contract!



The issue is that you pay a lot of money up front for a Boeing 737 type rating to a training organisation be it SAS or CAE.

But by the time the all the taxes are claimed back you have paid under half the cost of the rating.



Hudson if you are refering to Ryanair in relation to Brookfield? Defrauding 10 Downing street out of any taxes?

Irish airline.

Irish registered aircraft.

Irish company setup with Brookfield.

Irish accountants.

Irish tax system.


What is Alistair or 10 Downing going to say? Perhaps say nothing. A wry smile would say it all.




AS I KEEP SAYING. NOT THE SAME AS PAYING 50K FOR AN AIRBUS RATING AND 500 HOURS AND THEN TOLD TO :mad: OFF.


Heads.


Bricks.


Walls.

[stansdead]

If you happen to be based at a UK airport, with your centre of life (more than 90 days in 365 spent in UK) here (kids at school etc, or even just a wife/girlfriend) then the UK exchequer will be VERY interested in how and where you are paying tax.

It's only a matter of time.

I hope you've been good.

[go around flaps15]

Thanks for the concern.:}

I'm just fine.:ok:

[al446]

Sorry to torpedo you but the reciprocal agreement with Irish Republic comes into play. Much though I dislike it BRK guys operating within Irish tax laws as a company are a valid entity in UK and HMRC will not go after them. I wish they would but it has been sown up. For now. Just wait.

[Dreamshiner]

Jesus, having to mini-moderate my own thread. Sent a PM to Vanpilot asking to open his requests/suggestions up on a new thread as not to dilute this one and keep it on topic.

Therefore, back to Classification of Pay to Fly ..... feel free to continue this theme and stop it going off frequently on tangents.

[clanger32]

Doesn't the classification of PTF or not rather depend on the prevailing conditions in the industry at the time?

For example - I don't know if there was ever a time where employers would pay for ALL of your commercial training, but if there was - then to those who had paid nothing for their CPL, anyone who paid for that "basic" commercial training would be paying to fly.

Likewise even fifteen years ago, PTF would definitely have constituted paying for your own TR, whereas now I would argue that any newly qualified pilot should expect to pay - one way or another, be it reduced salary or cash up front- for their first rating.

Therefore in years to come given current trajectory, will the first 65/100/150 line hours become the accepted norm as first TR has now?

IMHO, 1 is expected, 2 is unfortunate but almost certain so 3 is the only one with any choice in it now. However if the airlines are savvy enough and actually attach a proper job at the end of line training then even that would be arguable. Unfortunately the two ongoing easyJet threads show that it's not affecting enough senior people just yet to force a stand to be taken, so in all likelihood should we not prepare ourselves for (3) being the norm?

[Avenger]

Dreamshiner/Mods

Can you have a dedicated section on PPRuNe for the PTF? It would appear that multiple posts by the same people keep creeping into every thread in an attempt to raise this topic to a higher status than appropriate, it's even creeping into the Tech Log section in disguise! The forum is rapidly becoming a portal the experienced guys will discard and the genuine enquiries and help topics will not be available to the members if this continues.
What often starts as an interesting debate seems to get sucked into the black hole of bitterness occupied by the few.