Xmas Day DTW Bomber - Security Woes Thread

[Griff]

Has anyone flown to the USA recently who can explain just what happens on the final hour of the flight when you are not allowed to move from your seat due to the new security restrictions?

Can you read a book or a newspaper for example or does everything have to be stowed away?

P

[sg64]

And to add to the questions above - what about bottles of water stored in the seat back? Are passengers being asked to trash them before the final hour?

[greggx101]

Belted up, seat up, tray up, cr*ap stowed under seat in front.

Nothing said about reading a paper or water.

That was BA early Boxing day.

TBH I thought it was bc of bad Wx rather than security.

[manintheback]

Position of seat makes all the difference to terrorism.

Flat bed in Biz or First = possibility of terrorist action
Seat up = no threat

Obvious really.

Only real way to deal with this is 24 hour interrogation with waterboarding and similar of the pilot before plane takes-off

For some reason the US remains off my list of destinations.

[glad rag]

For some reason the US remains off my list of destinations.

You got that right brother.

[Rush2112]

You got that right brother.

Yeah, my missus cannot understand why I have no interest in going to the States(!)

[Dnomyar19]

Is it also true that on some flights there has been no IFE, as engineers are unable to isolate the moving map, in other words all or nothing? Personally I find the moving map very interesting. Has this now gone forever?
D

[Nicholas49]

If the moving map has been removed permanently (anyone know if that is even practicable?) then that really is a great shame. A lot of passengers find it very interesting.

Are we ever going to get security right? Or must we always have this knee-jerk reaction? People try to use liquids as a bomb, so we impose a 100ml restriction on liquids and all the chaos that ensues. Someone tries to cause an explosion before landing, so we're now going to insist that the cabin is prepared for landing one hour before arrival with all the inconvenience that creates?

[PAXboy]

Bin Laden and his pals must be laughing so loud. The USA allows a flight:

Nigeria/AMS/USA with no intermediate checks
The Advanced Pax Info proved to be useless
They were warned about the pax - by his own father (who could ignore that?)
He fails in his task
So they make a million pax suffer.You couldn't invent this.

[manintheback]

If the moving map has been removed permanently (anyone know if that is even practicable?) then that really is a great shame. A lot of passengers find it very interesting.


It is a massive security problem as the terrorist knows when the aircraft is coming into land. Lets hope he doesnt think about looking out of the window to check or even worse when the Captain announces the flight time and routing, sets his watch.

The single carry on luggage item should help though as the terrorist will never think to move his weapons of choice from the item he now has to check-in.

One day someone will figure out that succesful security is about profiling the passenger not the incline of his seat.

[angels]

Please tell me it isn't true that the map has been removed. I mean this is bolleau isn't it? :confused:

As mainintheback implies, our terrorist is going to have eyes isn't he? Even if there's cloud cover, descent from the cruise is noticeable even to blind Tangos!

One day someone will figure out that succesful security is about profiling the passenger not the incline of his seat.

Oh, it's been figured out alright. The trouble is, no-one has the balls to implement it. :ugh:

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Sadly it's another set of examples of being seen to "do something". And, of course, a minor 'success' for terrorists by imposing further inconvenience and costs.

So now any intended terrorist will simply detonate [or whatever] at ETA -1 hour. He probably has a watch, so he doesn't actually need the moving map anyway. That's a giant step forward for airline security.

The 'seats upright' is, I guess, to make it easier for the cabin crew to notice unusual activity during the last hour. Which is fine if the intent is to drop the aircraft onto a city. If not, it makes no difference to security at all.

As several of you have said, the answer lies in more aggressive profiling before boarding ... and, of course, making effective use of the information already available on certain passengers.


PS - I'm a white British Anglo-Saxon Protestant, I'm over 60 and have little need for 72 virgins. Can I move to the front of the queue please? :)

[greggx101]

Forgot to mention - the In flight map is not available !

[MagnusP]

Two-Tone-Blue:

I'm over 60 and have little need for 72 virgins

I guess like me you have sufficient experience to know that women who know exactly what to do are a much better proposition. :E

[Mr @ Spotty M]

This will be next.
Good morning Ladies & Gentleman, welcome aboard this B777 flight from London to New York, your flying time today will be 16 hours and 23 minutes.:E

[backseatjock]

Spotty M - you sure the skipper will actually be able to mention the destination in announcements? And will we all have our watches confiscated so that we can't take an educated guess at which landmass we are cruising over?

Like many others who have posted, I will be doing all that I can to avoid routes to the US. You just couldn't make half of this enhanced security nonsense up!

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I much enjoy being in the USA [well, VA], and will be there again in the Spring.

But ... they flap, aimlessly an with minimal real effect. US Immigration has improved [a bit] but outbound 'security' remains a farce due to a simple inability of staff at Dulles to 'administer'. A separate queue/line for 'priority pax' [Club and First] doesn't achieve anything if you all end up shovelled to the same disorganised focus point. At which point, anything can happen :uhoh:

But, hey, LHR T5 is no better anyway: it must have been 30 minutes through "fast track" security the last time. And that included delay caused by an irate pax throwing stuff at the Sy staff to put on the belt. If I'd been closer, I might have hit him. ;)

[kaikohe76]

Do you think that the US authorities have considered operating aircraft without any pax at all on board, there you have eliminated the threat at a stroke!
Yes, unfotunately a sensible & professional level of security is needed these days & the US has certainly suffered some horrific events, but this latest knee jerk reaction will do very little I feel to improve things.

[Final 3 Greens]

Given the latest security tightening, I have come to the conclusion that it is simply too dangerous to travel to the USA.

[Di_Vosh]

this latest knee jerk reaction will do very little I feel to improve things.

Looks like the US authorities agree with you...

US overturns last-hour air seat restriction | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/us-overturns-last-hour-air-seat-restriction/story-e6frg6nf-1225814546240)


Cheers,

DIVOSH!

[PAXboy]

This from the BBC web
President Barack Obama has said a systemic failure allowed a known extremist with explosives to get onto a US-bound plane last week.
Mr Obama said he considered the intelligence and security failures to be "totally unacceptable".The US needed to learn from the incident and act quickly to fix flaws in the system, he said.Wow. Admitting a mistake? That's progress. The following was in a separate box:
US FLIGHT ADVICE
Only one item of hand luggage, including items bought airside
BA and Virgin Atlantic not charging to check in extra hand luggage
Check in wrapped presents
Passengers subject to "pat-down" searches before boarding, on top of usual security checks
Customers to remain seated during final hour of flight
No access to hand luggage and a ban on leaving possessions or blankets on laps during this hour

[Rush2112]

[quote=kaikohe76;5409250]Do you think that the US authorities have considered operating aircraft without any pax at all on board, there you have eliminated the threat at a stroke!
quote]

Ha ha, great idea! I can just see it coming! :ok:

[ex-EGLL]

Do you think that the US authorities have considered operating aircraft without any pax at all on board, there you have eliminated the threat at a stroke!
Yes, unfotunately a sensible & professional level of security is needed these days & the US has certainly suffered some horrific events, but this latest knee jerk reaction will do very little I feel to improve things.


It's been considered :eek:


FAA Considering Passenger Ban | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27687)

[Ignore the HUD]

so guess the audio feed of ATC has now been removed too?

[Hartington]

Sask, you may well be right about fares but when I went to AKL this time last year the ANZ ticket I got was a return to AKL that allowed me to go out one way and return the other all at the same fare as going the same way both ways.

And, as far as usage is concerned when I went the flight was a daily 747 via HKG but I believe later in the year it became a 777 and then dropped to 5 daily.

[sky9]

An article in todays Telegraph is well worth a read. It sums up the frustration of pilots with "security"

Treating everyone as a suspect is a dangerous charade - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/6919767/Treating-everyone-as-a-suspect-is-a-dangerous-charade.html)

[pen-e-h]

I flew return to AKL with Air NZ a few weeks ago, both ways via HK. Each leg took about 10 hours on the outward journey and 12 1/2 hours on the return to UK. As far as I remember when I booked the flight in August the fares via HK and LAX were both the same although this may very well have changed in view of the situation. Yes, it was a 777 and only 5 flights a week via HK. I can thoroughly recommend Air NZ. :ok:

[IB4138]

...and now the moron Brown has ordered a UK airport security review, as a knee jerk reaction to the latest bomber. :ugh:

PM Orders Airport Security Review Following Attempt By Farouk Abdul Mutallab To Bomb Detroit Jet | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/PM-Orders-Airport-Security-Review-Following-Attempt-By-Farouk-Abdul-Mutallab-To-Bomb-Detroit-Jet/Article/201001115512524?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15512524_PM_Orders_Airport_Security_Review_Follo wing_Attempt_By_Farouk_Abdul_Mutallab_To_Bomb_Detroit_Jet)

[MathFox]

Profiling is no silver bullet. It will fail to detect some wannabes, especially people that work quietly on their own.
And the people running the database can abuse it in several ways, from selling your personal data to manipulating it so that you will get an internal examination every time you fly. Do you want that?

[Skittles]

Mr Gilligan being the leading expert in the field of airport security....

He wants to avoid generalisation by focussing on the individual. Where exactly do we draw the line as to a 'potential danger?' Do you have a set criteria on which a special agency will swoop down and perform Yankee White before they get on a plane?

His idea would simply lead to 17,000 testimonies in the Daily Mail that they were picked on because they were *insert minority.*

It might be a flawed system but it's always going to be.

[Albert Salmon]

El Al has employed pax profiling for more years than I can recall.

Their profilers may be intrusive or rude (by our standards), but not a single terrorist has boarded one of their flights for +/- 25 years.

The Israeli policy of "respect them but suspect them" works.

[Graybeard]

Lessee, if the full body scanner can detect if a man has been circumsized...

[BEA 71]

Albert Salmon:

To err is part of human nature. El Al is a fairly small airline with a very limited network. They are not really good for comparison. Just imagine
the ( additional ) workload profiling would mean at a large airport. My
view is there is far too much excitement right now. Security has to be
lived, real professionals have always known what to do. But they
wouldn´t talk about it ( in public ).

[Dairyground]

Graybeard:

Lessee, if the full body scanner can detect if a man has been circumsized...


That would catch the Jewish and a fair proportion of North American males, but not many women of any persuasion.

[Mr A Tis]

Indeed, aside from the nail clippers & Toothpaste confiscated, just how much explosive material / arrests have been made worldwide through airport security ?:(

[sTeamTraen]

Indeed, aside from the nail clippers & Toothpaste confiscated, just how much explosive material / arrests have been made worldwide through airport security ?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gifIf you mean the increased security since 9/11, well, apparently some of it was needed, if only to stop people taking blades the size of box cutters on board. Personally I reckon that without that level of security, you could have had quite a few nasty CC injuries. The flying public these days contains a fair number of people who routinely carry a blade when they go about their daily business.

And you could argue just as well that if nobody is being caught by any given security measure, that its deterrent effect is working. It's philosophically impossible to argue against such an argument, unless you have an idea of what the number of people is who might be tempted to have a try otherwise.

You can make it more and more difficult for someone to commit the specific terrorist act of "blowing up an airliner in flight", but that's not the real terrorism problem. Indeed, I'm quite thankful that the typical nutter seems so obsessed by doing something as difficult as this. If they just want to kill people in large numbers, there are so many ways of doing it at lower "cost" (for all values of "cost"). Come to that, there are plenty of ways of killing large numbers of airline passengers without blowing up an aircraft in flight, although fortunately, driving a 6-foot-wide SUV into a 5-foot-wide airport door isn't one of them. :rolleyes:

[Anansis]

Personally, I'm all in favour of the government reviewing airport security. They might realise how rediculous and pointless much of the current system is and make some changes for the better.

Not holding my breath though...:rolleyes:

[Cater]

Are children and babies going to be body scanned ???

[sussex2]

The invidual concerned in this attack must (or should have) gone through profiling, which is routine on U.S. bound flights on carriers of that nation. I would be fundamentely surprised if he had evaded it.
He was travelling on a cash ticket, with no luggage to speak of; which alone should have rung massive alarm bells and is A typical of a suspicious customer.
He was either pronounced, in error, as a 'regular' pax or evaded, which is unlikely, the entire process.
Profiling is routine, and has been, on U.S. bound flights aboard U.S. carriers for twenty years or thereabouts.
What is the question is how this profiling was carried out at AMS (which is where it should have been carried out) and, if the explosive was concealed in the manner suspected, how even a pretty intimate body search would have detected it.
Was the profiling search carried out by the Dutch police, or a contracted security company, if it happened at all.
The simple fact is that there are too many agencies getting involved in this, which ultimately leads to confusion, and IMHO, watered down procedures. Yet more knee jerk government interference will not help the situation.

[Mark in CA]

That would catch the Jewish and a fair proportion of North American males, but not many women of any persuasion.

Muslims are circumcised, too, as are some non-Muslim Nigerians and most South Koreans.

[hawkerpilot]

flew last week as a passenger for a change.What a horrible way to travel. You are strip searched, shoes off, touched in places I do not want to be touched, suitecase opened because of my 'suspicous' shaving articles and rudly treated by the security people.

Watched an elderly lady undergoe the same humiliating proces, she could hardly walk without a stick but was forced to give it to the security personell for a thorough check...

The fact of the matter is this and nobody , especially politicians want to say this publicly but 99 % of the people that are being checked are not, will never be a potential terrorist.

So why do we undergo this ? Because nobody wants to say that it is to stop a select group of people with a certain background, religion and ideas, who originate from or have travelled via or from certain countries and that will be so easy to check via travel history data base.

To even mention this you will run the risk of being called a racist. But that is not the case.
As Pilots we are profiled all the time. Aviators who fancy visible piercings, ear rings and tatoos or long hair will not be allowed to start for any decent company, no matter how good they can fly. Our psychological profile is checked and the secret service is consulted about our past.Is this racism? No it is selection. And exactly that should be done. Put the burden on a few and not on the innocent majority.

And ofcourse there will be some that will be unneccesary accused/checked, but that is a smaller sacrifice then 99% of the others.

Because the way it is going now it will only get worse. Our job is eroded by increasing worse terms and conditions, we are humiliated on a daily basis and soon will be x-rayed on a daily bases as well with the bodyscan(sounds very healthy) and our passengers will stop flying.

I feel embarrassed that my passengers nowadays say that they hate flying because of all the things done to them for a simple trip from a to b.

and it will kill the industry.

[Dr Eckener]

Aviators who fancy visible piercings, ear rings and tatoos or long hair will not be allowed to start for any decent company, no matter how good they can fly. Our psychological profile is checked and the secret service is consulted about our past.
Still on the New Year juice?

[green granite]

A Northwest Airlines flight on its way from Detroit to Orlando, Florida was diverted due to a "suspicious item" that turned out to be a Christmas ornament, US media reported Friday.

"A suspicious item was found and out of an abundance of caution, the pilot decided to divert to Nashville, (Tennessee)," Delta Air Lines spokesman Carlos Santos told the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.

"It turned out to be a Christmas ornament."

[Dushan]

Forgot to mention - the In flight map is not available !

Big deal. This is not a real live data at all. It is just a DVD or a tape of that route that is started when the plane takes off.

[TightSlot]

This is not a real live data at all. It is just a DVD or a tape of that route that is started when the plane takes off

Incorrect. There are different systems available for purchase, all of which mix different levels of live and pre-populated data.

Please try not to post assumption as fact, particularly when it is uninformed - it simply confuses the argument for others

[PAXboy]

What I have not yet seen reported about the pax who got through the security and non-profiling: At AMS, did he simply stay on the a/c - or was he made to disembark for the transit? That makes the difference between European and African security scanning. At a guess, he stayed on and the research by the folks behind him knew that.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Or will the airline provide these at TOD.

Can I supply my own P bottle, or will they provide these at TOD too.

All window shades will be closed, and all lights on HI to confuse those who can see the ground.

No clapping on touch down, just silent prayers.

Except in Switzerland where the call to prayer is banned too.

No french muslem females allowed, unless wearing full body armour.

Almost forgot. These apply to crew only.

More guns on board, carried by professional guards in full batledress.
Perhaps recruited from a certain private american contractor, after all they never shoot the good guys do they.


glf

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Slowly killing their tourist business.

Slowly killing any transit passenger business.

Gave up a timeshare in FL, as it was becoming impossible to enjoy the experience.

Rant over.

glf

[Dufo]

Are children and babies going to be body scanned ???


Just put them through hand luggage x-ray.. they don't know what radiation is anyway.

[Tigh Wire]

Our travel agent opened this morning to dozens of requests for details on 'no fly' holidays. Our group of 26 greybeards are taking our grey pounds to Switzerland by train this spring rather than our planned LA trip, mainly due to pressure from the wives re body scans/searches etc, and the unacceptable ritual humiliation & abuse suffered now as pax. Aviation jobs must be at risk. Glad I'm well retired. Happy new year to all.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Hi PAXboy - compliments of the season!
Two distinct flights were involved - a KLM 777 from LOS to AMS and then a NW/DL 330 from AMS to DTW. It appears he was subject to normal security procedures for US-bound flights (including passport/visa check, a hand baggage scan and a metal detector arch) at the gate in Schiphol.

[PAXboy]

Hi PV, haven't seen you in the cabin for a while? Complimenti della stagione (language picked at random from Babelfish!) :ok:

Thanks for that. MOST interesting. No wonder the AMS-ers are down in the mouth about it and making offerings sacrifices of new scanners to the mighty USA.

[Anansis]

It is far from certain that full body scanners would have made much difference in this case anyway.

Are planned airport scanners just a scam? - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/are-planned-airport-scanners-just-a-scam-1856175.html)

It's quite a long article to cut and paste here, but the sections of perticular interest say-

Since the attack was foiled, body-scanners, using "millimetre-wave" technology and revealing a naked image of a passenger, have been touted as a solution to the problem of detecting explosive devices that are not picked up by traditional metal detectors – such as those containing liquids, chemicals or plastic explosive.

But Ben Wallace, the Conservative MP, who was formerly involved in a project by a leading British defence research firm to develop the scanners for airport use, said trials had shown that such low-density materials went undetected.

Tests by scientists in the team at Qinetiq, which Mr Wallace advised before he became an MP in 2005, showed the millimetre-wave scanners picked up shrapnel and heavy wax and metal, but plastic, chemicals and liquids were missed.

The same article goes on to discuss x-ray scanners (as opposed to millimetre wave technology), though Mr Wallace adds that these would also have been unlikely to have detected the Christmas Day bomb (aside from the health debate). Despite this, it still seems that the authorities are knee jerk reacting in an effort to be seen to be doing something-

Last week the US Transportation Security Administration ordered $165m-worth of scanners, using both millimetre and X-ray technology, from L-3 Communications.

Mr Wallace's comments must be taken in context- he is an opposition politician attacking the government- but they still raise interesting points. In any case this recent plot involved around just 3oz of explosives which could easily be hidden within the body and assembled once on the plane. Full body scanners may make Joe Public feel better and give useless beaurocrats another means by which to justify their pointless existence but will they actually make a difference? Its a bit late to go back in time and attempt to change foreign policy so the only soloution I can think of that will make a difference is to bite the bullet and begin passenger profiling.

[PAXboy]

It is always the easy choice to buy equipment. Almost every govt gives in to this on many different problems. Changing human behaviour (the govt's own) is almost impossible and requires people to admit they were wrong. So they buy equipment. Whether it's guns or scanners, they buy hardware.

During my 25+ years in telecommunications, I saw many companies/departments buying extra equipment - rather than attempting to change the behaviour of their staff. Changing staff behaviour would have saved more money but was more difficult and required true leadership.

Even if they introduce some profiling, they will not stop buying equipment.

[MathFox]

Full body scanners may make Joe Public feel better and give useless beaurocrats another means by which to justify their pointless existence but will they actually make a difference?
The full body scanners will be useful for catching smugglers, without being able to catch them all. Smugglers will review and adapt their methods when faced with the obstacle a body scanner presents them. Terrorist can then use the methods that smugglers found effective. :}

I guess that body scanners effectively will limit the size of what you can get on board; quality of scan depends on well-trained and skilled operators.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Body scanners and full pat down searches are being called humiliating and in some cases not necessary. Also with airports and security people being on high alert (read on nerves edge) chances of passenger frustration will grow. However what needs to be seen is that all this is an attempt to pre attempt the next issue that some moron will make and make that persons job that much harder to get thru. Till then maybe fewer people with a twisted religious inclination will fly as their modesty might be offended by this full body scan.

I am also happy that the US is now calling a spade a spade and not trying to be politically correct about profiling etc. One bad apple can spoil a lot, but after a while it should not be the rest of the worlds problem to be gentle with the origin of all apples, but rather the farmers.

If the Muslim world is upset about the profiling (special interest countries) and other issues then they need to introspect and fix the problem themselves (read better quality education from teachers and not mullahs). 10 years of B/S is enough that the balance 66% of the world population can bear. I think pretty much all are tired of hearing the stupid Jihadi doctrine and oppressed religious thought process. You want to see how opressed your brothers are go to Dubai.......find your 72 virgins and stick there till you do (probably will not find even one). For the rest of your moderate brethern let them live with dignity and don't make them suffer.

In the meanwhile as an SLF look forward to that day when flying will return to a beautiful experience that it was.

Absolutly frustrated with this as it needs to stop :{

[ExXB]

This event was not a failure of the security systems in place at Lagos or Amsterdam. This event is a failure of US intelligence. This guy was given a multiple entry visa by US officials and despite warnings from the UK and the idiot's own father the visa was not cancelled.

There is no need to introduce new and expensive scanners - particularly as they won't work. When I flew YLW-SEA a week after this happened I was subjected to a 'pat-down', except the nice gentleman doing it avoided my crotch area - why bother?

The knee-jerk reactions only demonstrate that the terrorists have won, yet again.

[nivsy]

My recent experience in the past week - no en route map on the UK-USA sector yet full map from USA to UK.

One hour out of Orlando everything cleared (pax have to do this not cabin crew) includes pillows and blankets all to go into overhead lockers - so even if you are asleep you will be woken. If you are cold you freeze for the final hour. No reading material allowed - one chap close to me tried and got barked at by BA hostess, cabin crew member - member of stassi - you choose the best description! No eating or drinking and escort to loo if you need to go but you are discouraged from going. Its quite frankly a truely awful final 60 minutes (not that the previous 7 hours or so were much better with BA).

Internal USA flight two days ago with AA from Orlando to O'Hare. No security issues on board. Flight from O'Hare to Heathrow with BA - a full mapping system provided, no other constraints on the pax at all so obviously flying from the USA is not a security risk. Its all a nonsense but from a country that ID's everyone at orlando Airport when you want a beer what can one expect? I sometimes wonder about our American cousins.....:ugh:

[BEagle]

...US intelligence...

Isn't that an oxymoron?