Thomas Cook Canada to immerge this spring! [Archive]

CDNFA

28th Dec 2009, 20:13

I cant see this happening, for a number of reasons. First off the long term agreement with CJ has with AT (conflict of interest?). Secondly by contracting out flying to CJ and 5G it gives them flexibility to grow and shrink their fleet requirements based on demand and economy having their own airline would involve more risk I would think and im not sure tour operators want more risk. Thirdly Thomas Cook is very present in the Canadian market as Sunquest/Alba why change that?

Would be nice to see but I don't see it happening well at least the purchasing of CJ and 5G. Why those 2? Why not purchase one? Either one would suffice I would think.

J.O.

28th Dec 2009, 20:52

Someone needs to research the foreign ownership requirements for airlines in Canada before posting baseless rumours.

phonetic

29th Dec 2009, 00:07

"Someone needs to research the foreign ownership requirements for airlines in Canada before posting baseless rumours."

Someone needs to go to business school before making comments like that!

:D

J.O.

29th Dec 2009, 14:56

Thomas Cook Canada is owned by Thomas Cook PLC, a UK owned company. Under the foreign ownership rules, they cannot own a majority interest in a Canadian airline. That is why they contract out their flying to Canadian airlines like Skyservice, Westjet, Air Transat, etc. Otherwise, they would have started their own airline back in the 90s. Instead, Sunquest signed up with Skyservice at that time.

KingAir

29th Dec 2009, 16:17

CDNFA

29th Dec 2009, 21:58

I still don't get what the point would be. Why fix something that isn't broken. Seems that Canjet, Skyservice AT..etc do a pretty good job at providing them the lift they need. Im not to sure I see a benefit.?

Willie Everlearn

30th Dec 2009, 13:02

Thomas Cook HAS to acquire majority (49%) ownership of these 'available' carriers to make ONE large carrier so that in 2 to 5 years it can fall into bankruptcy and fail. Thereby wiping out all three charter carriers. That's how the Canadian airline businesses (I hate the reference, industry) works.
Doesn't it?

What did we learn from the Canada 3000 experiment with Royal and....(yes, them again) CanJet??? Nothing?

...watch this space

Boeing737jock

30th Dec 2009, 14:47

No way!

Air Transat got contract with TK because they have 3 A330 on the ground doing nothing, believe me Transat will never let that to happen!

:E

Boeing737jock

30th Dec 2009, 14:52

Transat got a major contract with Canjet, so again they will not let this happen!
or cancel the contract!

which would be provided by TUI/Canjet and Skyservice's

Tui just buy about 40% in Sunwings, your rumour is funny!:ok:

J.O.

30th Dec 2009, 15:40

Canada mulls easing airline ownership rules | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0953921620090209)

Foreign ownership is restricted to 25% but may go up to 49% very soon. Some people say that it is a done deal.

But that will do nothing to change the requirement that the airline must remain under majority Canadian control. It would do TCX no good at all to take a minority (and non-controlling) interest in any Canadian company.

For me, the same logic applies to the TUI "investment" in Sunwing. Does anyone else find it highly coincidental that they got an apparent 49% interest in Sunwing for their $100 million investment? Doing the math, that makes Sunwing a company worth $200 million and change. Hmmm.

airfly

6th Jan 2010, 19:13

I really hope this merge rumor will happen. Recently 5G had a lot of Signature flights canceled as they are not selling and also most of their flights are going to SW. Soon Signature will be flying with SW as they just merge together.
5G and CJ I see the possibility of both of them joining forces with TX as they've been doing flights for the tour operator.
Also 5G maintenance has been training to fix B737, but at the same time don't forget 5G is mainly owned now by Girbalt so if TX wants to buy 5G from Girbalt they will need to spend a lot of money. Also 5G is one of the most expensive charter airline out there second to AT.
There is so much involved in this rumor that is a fifty, fifty chance that might happen

MAN2YKF

15th Jan 2010, 02:31

I heard today that the Air Transat deal with Canjet is not going to well and Air Transat are looking to cancel the deal.
Plus, Air Transat will be taking back it's UK routes in spring.
Something to do with when Transat aquired Canadian Affair they had to allwo Thomas Cook to continue operating on behalf of Canadian Affiar for a certain time period.

Air Transat are now roumered to be replacing it's A310's with A330's and a B737 fleet.

So, with that said, Thomas Cook could be here as Thomas Cook Canada, but then again, didn't Transat buy Thomas Cook Canada 2 years ago?

J.O.

16th Jan 2010, 00:37

Transat Tours bought the Thomas Cook travel shops in Canada three years ago. That sale included a non-compete clause for three years that restricted TCX from entering certain elements of the marketplace. That expires very soon. TCX are the largest integrated holiday company in the world and they may see some opportunities that they will now be able to exploit. What those are is anybody's guess. BTW, Thomas Cook still owns Sunquest Vacations, Alba Tours and some related travel businesses in Canada.

airfly

23rd Jan 2010, 23:27

So J.O. do you think that's the reason why Alba Tours/Sunquest Vacantion didn't do their Italy program with Skyservice because they are locked in with Air Transat?

J.O.

24th Jan 2010, 16:04

No, it's because Transat gives them seats that are "non-risk" whereas they are on the hook for the entire aircraft when they put an A330 on with SSV. This summer, Transat will only fly two Italian destinations for SQV / ALB, SUF and PSR. The remainder of their passengers will fly on Alitalia. The pricing Alitalia gave them is ridiculously low given that airline's notoriously high cost structure. Alitalia is simply trying to limit competition and sell seats that would otherwise be empty.

airfly

26th Jan 2010, 17:51

I see...i actually saw in theirs sched that they only start the Italy program with AT late June or something for those two destination.

ng78

14th Feb 2010, 01:53

There has been a lot of buzz lately surrounding Skyservice, but nothing has yet materialized. I'm still curious to see what happens with the Canadian tour operators and charter airlines once the busy winter season is over.

the dirty sensor

26th Mar 2010, 19:43

Gibralt wants out. This is the latest. 5G has dropped the ball in a very complicated game of holdem poker. TCX has been in talks with other carriers due to 5G's inability to come to a definative resolve. Problems with crewing and scheduling were experienced, and have heavily weighed on TCX's overall risk exposure and committments. Look for new tails in the future, TCX is not waiting around for 5G to get themselves sorted. There's money to be made mate! Sounds like the crews have really made a mess at 5G!

blues deville

27th Mar 2010, 11:14

How do you figure the crews at 5G are responsible for the airline's problems?

just curious....

bd :cool:

CDNFA

28th Mar 2010, 01:25

Thats quite the loaded statement, I hope you have all of your facts in order in regards to crew being the primary reason for Thomas Cook's/Sunquest dissatisfaction with Skyservice.

J.O.

28th Mar 2010, 01:45

Someone is trolling and looking for a reaction. Don't take the bait.

french_fry

28th Mar 2010, 20:37

the dirty sensor = Moron....

the dirty sensor

31st Mar 2010, 13:28

you ignorant bastard. turn on your tv and check the news!

the dirty sensor

31st Mar 2010, 13:36

Check your bank accounts......paid out. 10am announcement today. Best of luck in the future.....

b737NGyyc

31st Mar 2010, 17:22

Sadly confirmed this morning. Best of luck to all involved.

=http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/03/31/skyservice-suspends.html?ref=rss#ixzz0jm5dnPhA

Torque2

31st Mar 2010, 17:47

I'm sure all will agree your post is offensive DS. It would be gentlemanly and sensible to edit your final sentiment to those affected. :=:=

Good luck to you all. Best wishes.

Torque2

31st Mar 2010, 21:25

Well done DS. :ok::ok:

airdude

5th Apr 2010, 13:51

Jazz Air in agreement with Thomas Cook Canada (http://www.financialpost.com/news-sectors/story.html?id=2764490)

Jazz Air LP announces flight services agreement with Thomas Cook Canada to operate Boeing 757-200 aircraft

airdude

5th Apr 2010, 13:58

Jazz Air LP announces flight services agreement with Thomas Cook Canada to operate Boeing 757-200 aircraft

HALIFAX, April 5 /CNW/ - Today, Jazz Air LP announced that it has signed a flight services agreement with Thomas Cook Canada Inc. ("Thomas Cook") to operate no less than six Boeing 757-200 aircraft on their behalf to various sun destinations from Canadian gateways during the winter season (November through April). Subject to Jazz obtaining the required regulatory approvals and the execution of definitive leasing and maintenance agreements with Thomas Cook Airlines Ltd., the service will commence in November 2010.
If on or before May 30, 2010 Jazz and Thomas Cook are able to agree on pricing for the third, fourth and fifth winter seasons, then the agreement will be for a term ending April 30, 2015. Otherwise the agreement will have an initial term ending April 30, 2012.
This agreement is expected to generate approximately $100 million in additional annual revenues. The terms and conditions of the transaction are confidential.
"Growing and diversifying our business remains a top corporate priority; our agreement with Thomas Cook is a strong start that delivers value to all of our stakeholders," said Joseph Randell, President and Chief Executive Officer, Jazz Air LP. "We are thrilled to be partnering with one of the world's largest leisure travel groups, and it's our employees who have brought us to this important milestone. Our demonstrated ability to operate safely, reliably and with excellent customer service at competitive rates is the reason why we are able to grow and diversify our business. All our employees are to be commended for their 'can do' attitude and professionalism."
The opportunity to enter into this strategic partnership provides the potential for additional benefits for all stakeholders with minimum risk. The aircraft will be leased to Jazz Air LP from Thomas Cook Airlines Ltd. The plan is to brand the service as 'Thomas Cook' beginning in January, 2011.
"We see a great fit between Thomas Cook and Jazz," said Michael Friisdahl, President and Chief Executive Officer, Thomas Cook North America. "We're pleased to partner with an airline that prides itself on exceptional customer service and boasts amongst the strongest on-time performance in North America."

six7driver

6th Apr 2010, 14:35

And the question is who will do the flying? good for Jazz!

the dirty sensor

8th Apr 2010, 04:07

:ooh:Hey J.O (Jeff), talking out your pooper again? What was that you were saying about foreign ownership laws? Didn't quite get your jist son.:\:D

J.O.

9th Apr 2010, 00:42

How much ownership did Thomas Cook take in Jazz? Not a plug nickel. You were the one who said they were starting a new airline, not me. Stop being so arrogant.

GMC1500

10th Apr 2010, 13:39

As the financial post article indicates, it looks like jazz will hire contract pilots rather than offer the spots to its existing pilots, unfortunately. I expect it will all be former skyservice drivers.
Bad for both groups, I would expect.:ugh:

update:
Well, thanks to a friend in Jazz, I got a peek at an ALPA email, and it appears it will be Jazz pilots flying the '57s and Jazz cabin crew. Curious as to how junior the most junior FO on those things will be.

gasbag1

12th Apr 2010, 18:54

All of the Skyservice pilots are redundant while the Jazz pilots find themselves flying and possibly hiring to grab others work. I find it disappointing that pilots in Canada will take each others work on any "bigger" aircraft.

It is too bad Jazz could not expand or look for new opportunities rather than assist the Thomas Cook congolmerate in replacing one pilot group with another, thereby forcing 150 pilots out on the street.

The race to bottom is alive and well...

TERRIER two

12th Apr 2010, 19:58

And whose work did SSV take when it was created? When Sunquest wanted their own airline.

Obbie

13th Apr 2010, 14:39

SSV was a ship that had been taking on water for quite some time,
and it finally slipped below the surface. Such is the new age, deal with it !!

Jazz pilots are not the bad guys here so keep your stupid, ignorant shots
to yourselves.

Jazz is a ALPA pilot group, and no contract pilots will be needed.
We promote from within, PERIOD.

Jazz has the highest OTP of any airline in North America.
SSV couldn't push on time if their life depended on it.
Opps......I guess it looks like it did.

Any SSV pilot wishing to apply at Jazz is welcome to do so.
There is a place for you at the bottom of our list and a nice
right hand seat in one of our very nice Dash-8.

Yes thats right, the airline you once said you were too good for
is now your only hope. Isn't karma a bitch !!!!:D

the dirty sensor

13th Apr 2010, 16:25

Hats off to Jazz for diversifying their products/services and moving forward....instead of backwards, something SSV has been doing since being sold to Gibralt. Its a different kettle of fish, this charter operation. Hopefully Jazz greets can meet the demands of a very sensitive operation, where every flight is crucial to both customer satisfaction and tour operator.

seuss

13th Apr 2010, 19:55

I've worked for SSV several times on winter contracts (unlike our Canadian bros. we had to obtain a Canadian Licence to fly over here.) I am staggered by the animosity and rudeness shown towards each other lately. I never met an SSV pilot who boasted to be 'too good' to work for anyone. They were all decent guys with families mortgages etc....just like the rest of us really. It's sad for Canadian aviation that this has happened and I really hope those guys find something soon.

The pilots/ccrew/employees are the victims in these corporate games I'm afraid, and spewing rumour and vitriolic nonesense towards each other on this forum is pitiful to read. I can't believe that some of you guys are pilots...if you are you're a letdown. The upper echelons of Jazz couldn't give a flying toss about their pilots any more than SSV's/TCX's/TOM's do.If they can get you to pay to come to work they will....have no doubts about that!

I'm off back to the UK (if my aircraft haven't been impounded at YYZ as the rumour mill suggests). I'd love to get back to this place next winter and I hope that the pilots that I met, flew with and befriended here in Canada get decent work soon. Good luck guys, and a heartfelt thank you for the opportunity and experience.

Chuck Ellsworth

13th Apr 2010, 21:39

seuss you have articulated very clearly today's "me " society so evident by to many in the Canadian pilot group.

Reading some of the self centered drivel from some of these people makes me feel unclean from just reading their comments.

I am so happy not to be in aviation anymore, and thankful that I was in aviation when I was.

One only need read the Canadian forum to understand just how low the industry has fallen.

Yet they have the gall to demand to be called " professionals " :ugh:

c150driver

14th Apr 2010, 17:24

Does anyone know what the Jazz pilots will be paid for flying the 57?
Is it in around the $100k range that their top RJ captains make, or will they fight for a wage more inline with the machinery?

faireydelta

14th Apr 2010, 20:27

Hey Obbie, real nice post. You got alot of class, boy! Remember, karma can rip right around and bite you in the ass one day too! Especially in our industry!

None of us are immune!

You are obviously some dweeb living in your mom's basement that prances around the terminal with sunglasses clenched between your teeth, all the while counting down the days to the next direct deposit (what are you at, 800 bucks every 2 weeks?).

You don't know squat about life or what it means to have to start over again at the bottom, in middle age, with kids and responsibilities, and nothing to show for years of dedicated service and experience, unless you are willing to pull up stakes and go abroad. Try to process that prospect through your puny brain. You can't now, but chances are you will have to, eventually. Karma indeed.

You haven't got a clue about what it is to be in those guys' shoes! Not yet anyway! Fly long enough in Canada and you will, my friend.

I wish all the SSV guys good luck.

Chuck Ellsworth

14th Apr 2010, 21:23

Exactly my sentiments faireydelta.

What these pathetic individuals fail to take into consideration is the damage they do the other crews who fly for Jazz.

When I look at the Jazz crews walking through the terminals I will wonder if that is the person with this attitude towards their fellow pilots.

Any SSV pilot wishing to apply at Jazz is welcome to do so.
There is a place for you at the bottom of our list and a nice
right hand seat in one of our very nice Dash-8.

That is a worse attitude than some new flight instructor thinking flying a Cessna 172 is big time.

Pathetic.

6000PIC

15th Apr 2010, 00:04

Guys , go easy on Obbie , he`s so stupid and immature , he doesn`t realize he`s stupid and immature. One day he`ll get it , and boy oh boy will it hurt.

blues deville

15th Apr 2010, 13:43

"And whose work did SSV take when it was created? When Sunquest wanted their own airline? "

No ones. Here.....write this down so you don't forget.

Sunquest went shopping the idea of a Canadian winter season A320 to C3's Angus Kinnear in 1994. The problem Angus had was what to do with the aircraft the rest of the year so they could not agree on a deal. Russ Payson at Skyservice was approached and Skyservice Airlines was born. The arrangement grew from this initial six month operation into a seasonal swap of aircraft and crews to and from the UK. In 2009 Sunquest decided they could buy seats on other carriers at much lower costs for their summer programs and Skyservice lost A330 and B757 work for its Canadian pilots.

Another piece of Canadian travel company history. Skyservice operated one leased B757 for Sunwing in 2004 when the Hunter's started up again with their newly branded company. The following season, Sunwing wanted to increase the number of aircraft, however, the good people at Sunquest objected. With Signature and Conquest already in the Skyservice family, they did not want yet another tour operator in the group and basically told Russ Payson to choose Sunwing or Sunquest. Russ let Sunwing go and with it Mark Williams moved on to start up Sunwing Airlines with John Hunter and son Steve.

So now Sunquest or Thomas Cook as they are now called have moved on to Jazz. The good people at Jazz will eventually become familiar with the Boeing 757 MEL and how to secure parts for aircraft that Boeing no longer manufactures.

bd :cool:

TERRIER two

15th Apr 2010, 14:51

So Sunquest previously had no lift with other airlines prior to SSV? Very interesting.

YYZBeacher

15th Apr 2010, 16:24

Have to say I am very disappointed with the attitude of the Jazz drivers on here - you guys have forgotten SSV irrespective of the corporate ineptitude was crewed by human beings one assumes following their vocation/passion in the pointy end of metal tubes.

The pathetic remarks about toiling the skies in a Dash 8 making washers for a few years shows insensitivity, bad manners, bad judgement and complete ineptitude.

Show some humanity for god's sakes. These guys are out on the street and the business in this country has had enough knocks with idiots like leBlanc running amock. Even if he did sorry more than once (like he meant it).

Seriously - to all the SSV crews - the very best of luck. It's nice to see someone like Chuck still has the gentlemanly aviator demeanor.

Those of you out to troll and pick a fight - grow up!

blues deville

15th Apr 2010, 16:32

So Sunquest previously had no lift with other airlines prior to SSV? Very interesting.

That is correct. The airline that failed on March 31th, 2010 did not exist prior to 1994. Skyservice has successfully operated FBOs in Toronto and Montreal as well as global air ambulance service for over 20 years. At some point in their history they also operated an executive seating B727 which catered to sports team such as the Toronto Blue Jays.

bd :cool:

TERRIER two

15th Apr 2010, 17:52

I am well aware of the history. So how did Sunquest's inclusive tour passenger's get to their vacation destinations prior to the creation of SSV? Let's ask the question that way. Did they walk? Unless all Sunquest's flying as of 1994 was net new then it was transferred from somewhere.

Oh and Royal were also offered the gig and turned it down prior to Payson agreeing to it with (originally) Sunquest as their only customer.

You might want to write that down.

TERRIER two

15th Apr 2010, 18:12

Agreed the airline that failed in 2010 did not exist prior to 1994, but Sunquest did and so did their passengers. Presumably someone was previously flying them for Sunquest??

I have no connection with Jazz but would like to ask if the SSV pilots in 1994 tried to decline the work that was being transferred as they felt it unfair that SSV accepted it? No, they accepted new jobs with a company that was being set up specifically to take existing business from an existing carrier.

If Thomas Cook no longer wanted to work with SSV surely that is their decision, as it was to put flying with Skyservice from somewhere else in 1994.

It sounds like the decision was made to close down Skyservice, at least as early as February when the summer flying was given to Westjet (who didn't refuse it either) due to underlying issues with the cost structure.
One can hardly expect a business such as Jazz to turn down the offer of more work and it is somewhat unrealistic to expect the Jazz crews to ask their company to do so. I don't think it is actually their decision.

While sad for SSV it is not a cause for criticism of Jazz or its pilots.

gasbag1

15th Apr 2010, 23:41

1994 is rather old history, we could go back to Royal, Worldways and Wardair but the common thread is the suits moving the flying from here to there.:ugh:

If a decision is made easy by another company with the approval of it's pilot group to fly said flying, at possibly a lower pay rate then I question the professional morals of any group, especially a ALPA represented one.

I defy anyone to show me how this is improving our profession in any way in Canada.

blues deville

16th Apr 2010, 01:22

Exactely. Sunquest used the first generation of charter airlines in addition to seats purchased on scheduled carriers. In 1994, AirTours of the UK (later called MyTravel and now Thomas Cook) provided an aircraft and voila......Skyservice Airlines. I don't think they took any work away from others. They just started flying their own customers.

Its interesting to see that 16 years later Sunquest is back to using Alitalia to provide lift for their summer Italy program.

Good luck to Thomas Cook and their contract with Jazz. Hopefully I won't ever have to write cheques for fellow striking ALPA (Comair) pilots as I did in 2001.

bd :cool:

GMC1500

16th Apr 2010, 09:50

the guys and gals who bid to swap over to fly the big iron will be paid the same as they were making on the CRJs, which is the same as they make on the Dash 8s. Status pay.

Of course that kind of sucks, puts downward pressure on wages in general, but at the same time, since FO pay will still be the same FO pay, at least jr capts won't be tempted to go right seat, giving the poor sods slaving away for years in the right seat a shot at flying something bigger.

From my alpa days, I remember the thought process regarding getting newer, bigger planes on the fleet was that it was better to get the planes on the ramp first and then focus on negotiating better pay for them, rather than kill alot of time and risk not getting them at all.

Of course we all want bigger planes and more money. Unfortunately in Canada, its always been a buyer's market for pilots. That's why I'm an expat now.

blues deville

16th Apr 2010, 12:42

"From my alpa days, I remember the thought process regarding getting newer, bigger planes on the fleet was that it was better to get the planes on the ramp first and then focus on negotiating better pay for them, rather than kill alot of time and risk not getting them at all."

Bigger yes. Newer no. One of the 757s which Jazz pilots will fly was originally purchased for Canada 3000 in 1988. It's still in service with Thomas Cook and will be one of the aircraft C-reg'd for a Canadian winter. Enjoy.

Photos: Boeing 757-28A Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Thomas-Cook-Airlines/Boeing-757-28A/1467825/L/&sid=c2c23cd74e1f996fbe6ffcbf94228ab5)

bd :cool:

TERRIER two

16th Apr 2010, 13:38

No, Sunquest had seats on other charter airlines prior to 1994, flying which went to SSV after they were set up. The first aircraft leased to SSV were A320s from Monarch in fact.

Royal amongst others carried Sunquest's lift prior to SSV being set up.

I assume you are deliberately misunderstanding that point so I give up.

blues deville

16th Apr 2010, 15:55

Before you do, re-read this.

"Exactely. Sunquest used the first generation of charter airlines in addition to seats purchased on scheduled carriers."

bd :cool:

TERRIER two

16th Apr 2010, 17:48

So bingo! flying was transferred to SSV from other charter airlines and the pilots who joined SSV didn't object. Thanks,
I am also pretty certain the Airworld aircraft came before the AirTours but it really doesn't matter except I don't like being lectured when I'm pretty clear on the history.

GMC1500

16th Apr 2010, 18:38

well, the dash8s are pretty vintage themselves, but the point being made was bigger and/or newer planes. I'm sure the Jazz guys won't be complaining (at first) about the age of the '57s.

blues deville

16th Apr 2010, 23:15

"well, the dash8s are pretty vintage themselves, but the point being made was bigger and/or newer planes. I'm sure the Jazz guys won't be complaining (at first) about the age of the '57s"

True but some of those Dash 8's have been recently parked. This 757 and other similar aged Boeings will be sent over with complimentary UK deferals and defects for the Jazz gang to deal with each winter season.

Enjoy.

bd :cool:

c150driver

17th Apr 2010, 00:25

the guys and gals who bid to swap over to fly the big iron will be paid the same as they were making on the CRJs, which is the same as they make on the Dash 8s. Status pay.

That will surely make them the lowest paid 757 pilots in the world....bravo!

Of course we all want bigger planes

At what cost? This is the problem in Canadian aviation....always chasing the equipment rather than the pay/lifestyle....and so we continue the race to the bottom....once again, bravo!
Count me out!

doo

17th Apr 2010, 16:44

Is there reciprocity?
With SSV and C3 and the likes C reg went to the UK in the summer and G reg to Canada in the winter, what can Jazz offer TC? or is it a yr round gig?

blues deville

18th Apr 2010, 01:56

From 1988-2001, Canada 3000 pilots only flew C-reg'd aircraft in the UK with Air 2000/First Choice and one season with Flying Colors. They never brought in UK pilots to fly aircraft in Canada during the winter months.

When Royal signed a deal with Signature (1996?) they had UK pilots flying in Canada and Royal pilots spent time in the UK during the summer season. SSV continued this seasonal exchange with AirTours/MyTravel and also with First Choice when SSV inherited the Signature flying after C3 failed in 2001.

I have been told that Jazz does not intend to import pilots from the UK during the winter season.

bd :cool: