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tornspar
27th Dec 2009, 02:20
Heard Round The Traps That V Oz Is Getting Ready To Hire In March To Get Ready For IncreAsed Services And Deliveries..............anyone Got Any More News,could Be A Win For The Boys In The Land Of Sand!

SilverSleuth
27th Dec 2009, 02:55
Dont know how it is a win for the boys in the sand.
Cruise FO's still make less money than cabin crew. Captains still make less than the VB captains. Days off starting to get less now there is the FIJI returns. Still no overtime or even CPI increase and only 9 days off a month assured. Don't know if I would be leaving EK for that....

7378FE
27th Dec 2009, 02:55
What's with the capital letters?

Anyway for what it's worth, how much are you prepared to accept for 737 flying, as it is rumoured VA is going take on Cityflyer in the golden triangle and over to the west at the expense of VB, it will be a full service product, just like VA international but with 737's, so expect the next lot of -800's to roll out of Seattle in VA livery. :ok:

SilverSleuth
27th Dec 2009, 02:59
keep dreaming

captaintunedog777
27th Dec 2009, 04:59
HaHa Hilarious 787FE.

apacau
27th Dec 2009, 05:25
What I think you'll find is a total rebrand of the group (ie: VB, PB and VOZ) into a sngle brand...

Sunstar320
27th Dec 2009, 06:12
I also see some VA crew are still running around telling folks that they are getting 772's to do some ultra-long and unsustainable routes. So I just had to ruin her spiel and tell her even their CEO said this was bullshit, just google it. Total nonews made up that one, probaly this one too...:=

What I think you'll find is a total rebrand of the group (ie: VB, PB and VOZ) into a sngle brand...
And I would hate to think how this would affect the current DJ conditions when bringing the other two together.

gobbledock
27th Dec 2009, 06:26
What I think you'll find is a total rebrand of the group (ie: VB, PB and VOZ) into a sngle brand...

Yep, I have heard from a reliable source that some fairly 'solid and robust' discussions have taken place around this particular topic.However,many interesting topics are often discussed behind closed doors at the Senior Management level. It doesn't mean that this particular 'concept' will gain any weight, but who know's.

Anthill
27th Dec 2009, 07:10
Tornspar,

It is very unlikely that there will be any more DECs offered outside the Virgin group. Same for Senior FO positions. I think that any newcomers will be in the form of CzFOs only.

topend3
27th Dec 2009, 07:38
Gobbledock is spot on, a good article interview with BG in Jan/Feb AA, points to all sorts of plans in discussion, even another type for regional services to compete with the Q400's, but not to say they will come to fruition.

I would not be surprised if a group re-branding was on the cards down the track...

Sushi Muncher
27th Dec 2009, 09:29
Anthil.
What about people that are in the hold pool for DEC that have interviewed and are waiting a start date?

balibo
27th Dec 2009, 10:40
The only chance of Direct Entry positions is if there is a short notice, unexpected increase in aircraft deliveries, which would probably put too much strain on the training department, there fore Direct Entry positions would be a possibility.

At present, given the current delivery schedule, there will be no requirement for Direct Entry positions for the coming year.

I have spoken to BG personally and he has denied the 772 rumor, as would be expected. If they are coming, it is a very well kept secret. What is more likely, is that some of the 773 options may be converted to 772's.

fatbus
27th Dec 2009, 14:22
Have they taken DEC's already? YES .Will they take them again? YES. You are naive if you think they wont do it again and that guys from the desert wont be interested. 9 days off min is more than EK gets now and you have to live in the Dubai. I would say 100+ 777 Capts are more than done with Dubai and waiting for anything closer to home.

Sushi Muncher
27th Dec 2009, 17:12
That is somewhat different to what the recruitment department have been saying for the past year

inandout
28th Dec 2009, 00:45
787 are now on the cards so says Boeing. And yes you will not read about it yet.

B772
28th Dec 2009, 01:43
SilverSleuth; You may be surprised by the amount of interest in further B777 positions in VA by the EK gang.

Sunstar320; VA have long talked about using the 777 on domestic legs as part of an international flight. An example would be SYD-PER as part of a LAX-SYD-PER or SYD-PER-LHR (or LGW) services. The SYD-PER leg being complexed.

Macrohard
28th Dec 2009, 04:41
An example would be SYD-PER as part of a LOS-SYD-PER or SYD-PER-LHR (or LGW) services.

LOS=Lagos?????

Grey Nomad
28th Dec 2009, 06:43
I imagine the taking of DEC's will depend on VB releasing any of the 737
drivers early next year.I understand VB mainline will be fairly short of crew as they ramp up capacity and may be reluctant to let them go to VA. I have heard a fair few of the EK 777 Captains who are in the hold file are keen to start and may be able to quickly fill any void that is created by the arrival of extra aircraft.At the moment the only jobs going will be from the vacancies created by cruisers leaving to join Jetstar and Qatar.I hope that anyone who plans to join VA on current terms and conditions does some homework on the cost of living in OZ at the moment and in the near future as it is not cheap!!!

balibo
28th Dec 2009, 10:58
Sorry to inject a dose of reality , but you're getting a little excited over not much.

Yes there is a ton of EK guys finally fed up enough, and with the bucket of gold full enough, to want to join VOZ. The problem is that with only one aircraft scheduled for delivery next year, there will only be a requirement for 8 Captains. The VB EBA requires all of the command positions for the next 3 aircraft to be offered to VB guys. Additional to that, there are several F/O's who are being considered for upgrade.

So in short, yes the company can and would hire DEC's, if the situation requires it, but on current projections, there will be no requirement. F/O positions I'm not so sure about. There aren't too many CRFO's who have the experience for an upgrade to F/O, but there is a bunch of VB F/O's who want the job. Hard to see VB releasing F/O's though, when they need to recruit approx 50 for the domestic op next year.

The caveat to all this is projected deliveries. If the delivery schedule changes significantly then all bets are off. :ok:

Sushi Muncher
28th Dec 2009, 12:38
It seems to me then that the information the recruitment team have been saying to those in the hold pool over the past year or so is in conflict with what you are saying

B772
28th Dec 2009, 22:21
How many pilots have resigned/retired from VB in 2009 ?

Howard Hughes
28th Dec 2009, 22:30
And left to go to 'the sandpit'!;)

Red Jet
28th Dec 2009, 22:35
Just a slight correction to what Balibo says, in that there are only 18 positions remaining to be filled by VB captains to satisfy the EBA requirement to have 4/7th of the Captain positions filled by VB Captains for the first 7 aircraft. Current crewing should indicate that with 10 primary crew per aircraft the VB deed should be met with the delivery of aircraft number 6, and upgrade of qualified SFO will get going in 2011. The only way I can see that extensive DEC's will be used is if the internal rumours of 200LR's happens quickly.

Equatorial
28th Dec 2009, 22:36
Anthill - don't work for V Oz do you by chance and are a Crz F/O??

Can someone explain to me why they are called a Crz F/O anyway?? What a stupid title, does it make them feel more important than they are :ugh:

The conditions are disgusting. Have mates there and they are getting flogged for $54000, plus the promise of 'performance bonuses' which to me means never call in sick, never not answer your phone, come into the office and do free work for us, always do additional duties or no bonus. Disgrace.

It would be around this time - you know, being in the company for a little while now that the shiny new jet syndrome has worn off and the realisation that it is a shit deal would be well and truly setting in.

Reminds me of junior instructors all willing to work for free.

Has always happened, will always happen.

Stop selling yourselves out.

Don't for a second think that just because you have been there a while now that management won't hire over the top of you again.

But I guess you knew all that when you signed on.

Excuse me while I throw up your EBA

:yuk:

Grey Nomad
28th Dec 2009, 23:45
It will be interesting to see what spin HR puts on the EBA 4/7 ths deal with respect to the poor response for positions in VA in the beginning from the VB guys.
I realise that this was part industrial in a way due to the poor conditions on offer. Under the conditions set out in the EBA does it actually state positions taken or positions offered to meet the 4/7 ths minimum requirement?Unfortunately in this day and age management are too often taking the DEC option with no thought to the career aspirations of the incumbent employees. Although if you sign a crap contract what can you expect.

captaintunedog777
28th Dec 2009, 23:50
Seriously $54 grand for doing nothing is pretty good pay.

metrosmoker
29th Dec 2009, 00:03
Equatorial, you are a tool.
Jump on here and bag guys for trying to get ahead in there career`s.
You can get on here and sling shit at them, but do you have an alternative? Sit in the never ending Qantas recruitment process? If they went to Jetstar you would be whinging about them doing that because they are taking jobs off Qantas. Suppose they could always stay in G.A and be flogged by their boss, work in the office for free, etc.
Do you think they made up the name for their position, or just maybe it was devised by the company?
How is that title any more important than I don`t know, say a Second Officer? Or are you jealous they have F/O in their title and you don`t?
These guys with 777 endo`s will be sitting pretty in about 18-24 months when the next world wide pilot shortage hits. And you will then be wondering how you got left behind!

Keg
29th Dec 2009, 00:34
These guys with 777 endo`s will be sitting pretty in about 18-24 months when the next world wide pilot shortage hits. And you will then be wondering how you got left behind!

Interesting that a decade or so ago people went o/s when they didn't want to or couldn't crack the Aussie airlines. These days the Aussie airlines are what gets you the experience to cracking into the o/s airlines.

I heard a saying the other day that was in the context of marriage and divorce but seems to apply equally well to this situation. The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, the grass is greener where you water it. It seems too few people are prepared to water the Aussie grass these days.

Sushi Muncher
29th Dec 2009, 00:54
It seems to me that this V Australia/VB thread is sounding remarkedly like a bunch of winging Qantas pilots

Equatorial
29th Dec 2009, 01:02
Call me what you like metrosmoker, just telling it how a lot of people see it. How many people took one look at the conditions on offer and told them to no thanks?

Obviously you have been sold on the story that the 'sacrifice' you have made will pay off in the long run. I hope it does. But why is it always a race to the bottom for conditions?

Ah yes, the shiny jet syndrome and companies will always play on the fact that pilots want to fly the newest and biggest.

I'd love to fly a brand new state of the art aircraft but not by selling myself out. Don't assume you know what I would think of other companies such as Qantas, Jetstar etc all companies have their pros and cons but the conditions at VOz are ordinary. Come on you must admit that you would not be happy with what you are on? If it is true that some cabin crew get paid more than crz f/o's then how many jokes are made by them on your conditions behind your back?

As Keg has said the grass isn't always greener, so if in say 2 yrs you head overseas I hope your quality of life is comparable to this land of ours and the sacrifice has been worth it :ok:

Keg
29th Dec 2009, 01:29
Sushi eater, out of all the 'usual suspects' of QF drivers I'm the only one to have posted thus far and in response to a Virgin driver's view that VOz is a stepping stone to o/s 777 slots!!

Still, feel free to shoot the messenger if it makes you happy. :rolleyes:

MrSheffield
29th Dec 2009, 01:41
If it is true that some cabin crew get paid more than crz f/o's then how many jokes are made by them on your conditions behind your back?

VAustralia should be disgusted with themselves. Seriously is this done in any other airline / country in the world? Since when do these superficial tarts earn more than a pilot for serving coffee??

I dont see how they can pay their cabin supervisors more than a pilot, regardless of his / her rank, considering the time / money / sacrafice / qualification / commitment a pilot must endure to even reach the status of CRZ FO.

Fukn disgusting, i will never fly Voz coz u are scam, let alone work for u, uve pissed me off! :ugh: FU

Howard Hughes
29th Dec 2009, 01:46
Sushi, please don't call me a Qantas pilot!:p

Sushi Muncher
29th Dec 2009, 02:38
I'm sorry Howard Hughs, but sitting reading these posts about what may or may not happen in V Australia, and what the management may or may not do, really does read like a bunch of Qantas pilots trying to one up each other. What hapens happens, there is nothing that any of you all can do about it. VA does have a pool of very experienced Direct Entry Captains who have already gone through the selection process and are waiting for start dates in 2010/2011 for aircraft 4 and 5. That is a fact.

Ref + 10
29th Dec 2009, 03:21
What hapens happens, there is nothing that any of you all can do about it.

Sushi, there may be nothing that any of them can do but there is something that you and people in your position can do about it. If you accept a DEC position for rubbish conditions then companies like VOz will continue to operate while degrading the terms and conditions for pilots. While you are out there offering all the experience that you bring to an airline in return for a very meagre wage it is you who are doing the industry a disservice.

I don't work for Qantas or Virgin but if you roll over like a puppy then you are bound to get kicked in the guts when you finally grow a pair.

Sushi Muncher
29th Dec 2009, 03:37
Sounds like what the VB guys did when it started up if memory serves me. Didn't they undermine the conditions as they existed at the time. Pot calling the kettle black I'm afraid. Mate, I grew a pair of big ones 20 years ago.

7378FE
29th Dec 2009, 04:21
Back in 2000 when Virgin Blue commenced operations, how much were QF/AN pilots getting paid?

Has the rate of pay gone backwards for QF pilots? (I know it did for AN pilots, but that is another topic) I doubt it. :rolleyes:

A startup airline comes along and offers salaries & conditions below those established airlines, the prospective employees either accept or reject whats on offer.

Many pilots who started at Virgin Blue / Impulse in the early days, now have very rewarding flying careers around the world with some of the world's blue chip airlines.

Most of the CFO's at V Australia are just starting out on thier airline careers, and most of the Captains at V Australia have come back to unwind, having spent enough time and collected enough money overseas to allow them the Australian lifestyle. These Captains share their knowlege with thier junior members on the flightdeck which will be invaluble to them in the future.

Cheers

QF A330
29th Dec 2009, 06:22
VAustralia should be disgusted with themselves. Seriously is this done in any other airline / country in the world? Since when do these superficial tarts earn more than a pilot for serving coffee??

You obviously work for a company which has no EEO training and as the husband of a LONG serving CSM, it is no wonder that they call the tech crew the "children" when they head upfront to serve you meals, drinks and all of your petty requests.

funbags
29th Dec 2009, 06:39
What a joke. $54000 a year, and less than the flight attendants. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, and going into the office to do extra work.

Prostituting themselves. Just a big G.A outfit. :\

Race to the bottom, hopefully we're at it! :hmm:

Gnadenburg
29th Dec 2009, 07:12
Many pilots who started at Virgin Blue / Impulse in the early days, now have very rewarding flying careers around the world with some of the world's blue chip airlines.

Where? Who?

So these guys are poor as airline pilots in Australia and go to crap outfits like EK to make ends meet?

7378FE your post should be depressing and a sad wake-up for Australian airline pilots.

Dumb profession now with a blue collar mentality.

YoDawg
29th Dec 2009, 07:21
It seems to me that this V Australia/VB thread is sounding remarkedly like a bunch of winging Qantas pilots

Actually, this thread sounds like a bunch of whinging children. Bad spelling, bad syntax, bad grammar, bad (or non-existent) punctuation - maybe VOz pay for exactly what they get with their low salaries. Are Aussie pilots really that poorly-educated?

VA does have a pool of very experienced Direct Entry Captains who have already gone through the selection process and are waiting for start dates in 2010/2011 for aircraft 4 and 5. That is a fact.

They went to the bottom of the experience barrel during the interview stage last year and were STILL rejected by many of the applicants for DEC positions after the offer came out. That is a fact.

as the husband of a LONG serving CSM, it is no wonder that they call the tech crew the "children" when they head upfront to serve you meals, drinks and all of your petty requests.

Sounds like you've been well-trained. Aside from you, who cares what the help think?

These guys with 777 endo`s will be sitting pretty in about 18-24 months

What sort of valuable experience will a VOz Second Officer have after a year or two in the back seat which will make him marketable overseas? What endorsement does an SO hold at VOz?

KABOY
29th Dec 2009, 07:22
And sadly these pilots race to airlines overseas to undermine their colleagues as well.

Use an Australian airline with substandard pay to enhance their career prospects, only to undermine others overseas. Sadly, the rot has now started with the international cadet scheme.

I hear that Cathay will consider the V OZ cruise F/O for the scheme!!!!!:ugh:

Sushi Muncher
29th Dec 2009, 07:51
YoDawg,
Your perception of inexperience is vastly different to mine. I know of two applicants that were interviewed last year for DEC positions. Both had more than 15,000 hours total time,in excess of 10,000 hours wide body international command experience with very reputable overseas airlines. Both were TRE/IRE's, ( primarily why they were interviewed) and both accepted the terms and condition. They are awaiting further notification from VA recruitment.

YoDawg
29th Dec 2009, 08:04
Could it be that the pilots you know were, in fact, interviewed this year (2009)? That might make sense to me.

But if they were interviewed at the end of 2008 like most of the DECs, then it does not add up as V also offered positions to pilots interviewed late 2008 and who held substantially lower qualifications than what you mention. Some took them up on it but many did not.

All the pilots who were offered positions late last year have already accepted them, to my knowledge. The instructors and check captains were interviewed quite a lot earlier than that and were already employed by the end of last year when the recruiting team went out on the job.

Sushi Muncher
29th Dec 2009, 08:22
Interviewed October 2008 for aircraft 4 and 5. Still in the hold pool for said aircraft. Delayed due to deferred deliveries. Expecting start dates in 2010.

YoDawg
29th Dec 2009, 08:48
Well there you go then. Odd that they were put on the hold list when employment start dates were offered to pilots with the bare minimum for a LINE DEC position, many of whom subsequently rejected the offer.

Sushi Muncher
29th Dec 2009, 09:02
Maybe they will get offered a start, and maybe they won't. They have had encouraging correspondance from VA recruitment people over the past year however. So as I said, there are experienced people in their pool ready to take up the offer.

naild
30th Dec 2009, 00:32
If Crz Fo's are on 54k. what are the req'ts for their postn? does the wage fit the lower req'ts?

what are the other crew wages like with VA..

Capt?
FO?

From what I last saw VB Ejet crew are on : Capt 143K FO 78-93K
and B73 crew are on : Capt 179K FO 98-116K

Firstly, are these figures correct, if they are, how do they compare?

:8

neville_nobody
30th Dec 2009, 00:46
VB get paid for working on days off, have overtime and have higher overnight allowances.

Voz all you get is the salary and that is it.

ad-astra
30th Dec 2009, 01:41
VB Salary today

737 Capt $179,408
737 FO $98,675/107,645/116,675 (Levels 1/2/3)
EMB Capt $143,527
EMB FO $78,940/86,116/93,292 (Levels 1/2/3)

VB Salary 01/07/10

737 Capt $184,791 -3% rise or 194,030 if CPI is up to 5%

Same increases applicable to other ranks.

Working on day off 737 Capt Minimum of $1060/Day (with CPI increases)
Overtime 737 Capt over 71 hours in 28 days at approx $200/Hr
Meal Allowances about $120 day
Loss of Licence up to $2400
Training Capt +10%
Check Captain +16%

Last year with Salary/TC Allowance/Overtime/Working day off
(and working hard) a Brisbane based Training Captain could/DID make $250K+

Contented - I'm a pilot -probably never ;)
Happy - Yep :O
Considering VAustralia not a chance :bored:

metrosmoker
30th Dec 2009, 02:02
Equitorial.
Don`t work for Voz. It shits me when gooses like you jump on here and bag guys trying to get ahead.
Never said the deal was good, but niether is sitting in a piston in the middle of nowhere living below the poverty line.
And last but by no means least, think about where you were just a few years ago, up north. Bit hypocritical talking about the `race to the bottom`, remeber where you came from, I do!

Keg,
The industry is about to come full circle. Almost 700 787`s have been sold and going to hit the tarmac`s around the world. A 777 endo is not a bad ticket to have.

Keg
30th Dec 2009, 02:11
Yes metro but it's a shame that you won't be able to live in Australia and fly one for decent coin.

bagchucka
30th Dec 2009, 02:47
Never said the deal was good, but niether is sitting in a piston in the middle of nowhere living below the poverty line

54k a year living in Sydney would put you below said line.

Cost Index
30th Dec 2009, 03:41
Never said the deal was good, but niether is sitting in a piston in the middle of nowhere living below the poverty line

54k a year living in Sydney would put you below said line.

Hit the nail on the head there bagchucka :ok:

overhere
30th Dec 2009, 04:23
If you think 54K is below the poverty line you're mad - it maybe below the average wage but it's no where near the poverty line!

54K (plus allowances) to fly a brand new jet with hopes of career prospects in a large airline group vs 35K flying a 30 year old Cessna around the traps with little hope of progession in some backward run GA outfit - gee it's a tough choice....

Now those of you who are QF skippers can slam me all you want but times have changed -it's easy for you to say it's a bad deal sitting up front of your shiney jet earning $200K+ a year....

Now where do I apply....

Trimmed_Flaps
30th Dec 2009, 05:26
career prospects

From friends:

VOZ have made no promises nor provided any avenue for promotion or a career. There has been lots of huff n puff about getting something in writing but it hasnt happened.

Most will sit in their prospective seats for many more years unless expansion ramps up.

Nowhere does it say that VOZ cant hire more DEC's if there isnt enough interested VB pilots.

Hell, even VB took DEC's very recently on the EMB. :rolleyes:

For the record, a/c 4 has already arrived.

Good luck.

7378FE
30th Dec 2009, 05:37
Here is where QF pilots attian to be, able to sit on thier wallet so as to see over the panel:rolleyes:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2660/4213710197_e9220cf336_o.jpg

breakfastburrito
30th Dec 2009, 05:47
Now those of you who are QF skippers can slam me all you want but times have changed -it's easy for you to say it's a bad deal sitting up front of your shiny jet earning $200K+ a year....

And how do you think they got to into that position?


Taking your logic, what would YOU accept for say a for a 777 command? By the sound of it anything north of 54K (plus allowances) would be acceptable, say 65K, 85K, 100K?

In case you haven't noticed, LCC's are GA with jets as far as pilots are concerned (pay for endorsement, undercutting each other to get hours / ratings / always looking for the next operator to provide you with something more valuable in the logbook).

If all those QF skippers had followed your logic then the bar would be significantly lower than the 200K+ you claim.
But you obviously believe 200K+ is reasonable, because you desire it
Now where do I apply....
Your attitude ensures this is a figure you will never achieve, because as you attempt to undercut others to "get ahead", they will seek to do the same to you as the race to the bottom continues.
Management are sitting back reading your posts laughing into their best French champagne as they order another dozen case's with the bonuses you'll provide.

By the way 54K for a single is not the poverty line living in a capital city renting with a basic existance. Want to own property within 1.5 hour of the city or have children, forget it.

inandout
30th Dec 2009, 05:48
The VA EBA is in work NOW.

Sushi Muncher
30th Dec 2009, 05:50
Trimmed Flaps,

You are spot on with your statement. VA is a separate entity and can and will do what it thinks best for their airline. The last thing they want is a Qantas type of scope system.
Didn't know aircraft 4 was here. Must be aircraft 5 that the Captains in the pool are waiting for

Dragun
30th Dec 2009, 06:56
If you think 54K is below the poverty line you're mad - it maybe below the average wage but it's no where near the poverty line!

54K (plus allowances) to fly a brand new jet with hopes of career prospects in a large airline group vs 35K flying a 30 year old Cessna around the traps with little hope of progession in some backward run GA outfit - gee it's a tough choice....

Now those of you who are QF skippers can slam me all you want but times have changed -it's easy for you to say it's a bad deal sitting up front of your shiney jet earning $200K+ a year....

Now where do I apply....

You make me sick. You personify the reason why our industry's terms and conditions are on a downhill slide from previous years. Don't lie and talk yourself into thinking you're not because it's people like you who accept this filth that ruin it for the rest of us and will continue to aid the degradation in years to come.

For the record, I did apply for V Australia and actually had a chuckle when I was read out the terms and conditions over the phone. When asked "So do you want to proceed with your application?" I bluntly answered, "No thank you. Those terms and conditions are way below what I would expect any B777 tech crew to be offered, whether for a cruise FO position or not. Unless they improve significantly, I'm sorry but I'm not interested." Was it rude? No - it was honest. He really had no answer and guess what would've happened if morons like you and everyone else had've said the same thing?

Go back to your $54K hole and enjoy eating maggi noodles for the rest of your life. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

funbags
30th Dec 2009, 07:34
I can't believe anyone could boast about accepting $54000 to fly as an airline pilot on wide body aircraft. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Thanks for ruining this great industry.

KRUSTY 34
30th Dec 2009, 09:26
captaintunedog777 said...

"Seriously $54 grand for doing nothing is pretty good pay"

My god in heaven! I don't know what's more worrying? The fact that this individual thinks a wide bodied aircrew member simply turns up on day one (apparently without making any sort of sacrifice/effort to even be qualified in the first place) and then continues to play no active role whatsoever. Because that's how it reads.

Or worse, this individual is actually a VOZ crew member, and either has scant regard for the guy sitting behind him, or is so blasie about the role as to think it only warrants $54K P/A!

Either way. Seek help! :confused:

Angle of Attack
30th Dec 2009, 10:42
Well whether you think 54k is good or not, I used to work in a factory 16 years ago in a totally unskilled position and made 45k a year, and that was dead easy just had to turn up, do your stuff then go home! Still know some old hands still plodding on in the said factory the salary now is around 62k. Make what you want of that.

These guys with 777 endo`s will be sitting pretty in about 18-24 months when the next world wide pilot shortage hits. And you will then be wondering how you got left behind!

What endorsement does a CRZ F/O actually get? I don't think it has been answered yet. A Co-pilot rating or a Command rating? If a Command rating I can believe the above comment otherwise I would positively disagree! :E

Transition Layer
30th Dec 2009, 12:13
I keep waiting for a VA Cruise F/O (or any VA pilot) to come on here and say that $54k is a load of bollocks and the pay is actually a lot more than that...but so far nothing. :(

fatbus
30th Dec 2009, 12:28
20 years old fresh CPL( or what ever is reqd) and 54K sign me up. Most guys have to take a step back and look at things as if they were just getting started again, noy all that bad. Not to mention the benifits and I don't mean dental

snoop doggy dog
30th Dec 2009, 13:33
I love these threads! :p

Most pilots wont stand together, blame everyone else for their sh!t wages and except no responsibility for any of it. :ugh:

Help someone in need and guide them on the right path. You might create some Unity, but I doubt it. Not many pilots have balls when it comes to standing up and getting what they want. They always want someone else to do it for them, as they don't want to be seen "causing trouble" or are just plain gutless. :=

The Virgin Pilots (especially the senior ones) could band together and do something about, but they don't. They expect the AFAP (aka Toothless Tiger) to do something about it, or the other pilots to do something about it. :mad: Pilots' don't Organise themselves. Too selfish and too lazy.

If someone is stupid enough to fly a 777 for $54K, good luck to the idiots. For an Airline to offer that sh!t, it just shows you what a Quality operation they are. They wont have staff loyalty and this will cost them dearly. You can go and mow lawns for your local council for that pay, have a 35 hr week (9 day fortnight) and not go through a lot of bullsh!t from everyone you work with.

Anyway, I'm off to work, but first I'm going upstairs to tell management how good they are and dob on a few guys I work with to promote myself, then go and work with the same guys I dobbed in and act as nothing ever happened :yuk:

Good luck at Virgin whatever :ok:

Metro man
30th Dec 2009, 14:12
Your perception of inexperience is vastly different to mine. I know of two applicants that were interviewed last year for DEC positions. Both had more than 15,000 hours total time,in excess of 10,000 hours wide body international command experience with very reputable overseas airlines. Both were TRE/IRE's, ( primarily why they were interviewed) and both accepted the terms and condition. They are awaiting further notification from VA recruitment.

Were these pilots:
1. Well cashed up after a long stint overseas and keen to come back home and fly for a few years before retirement ? Money not a major consideration.
2. Having family issues ? Wife doesn't like the sand pit/Hong Kong and is threatening to leave unless a move south is made.

$54 000/year in Sydney would have delivery drivers turning their noses up in disgust. You will need either:
1. Wife in a well paid job and able to support you if married.
2. Living at home or parental financial support if single.
3. A second job such a taxi driving or labouring on your days off.

Most airlines won't accept cruise captain time towards command hour requirements. Cruise f/o time is worth even less. EVA Air might look at you but forget about ever getting an upgrade

puff
30th Dec 2009, 14:41
Reality is they could offer 45K for CRZ FOs and they still would be unable to jump over the pile of applications. Wait for B scale ! :P

Wait until they start offering 777 cadet schemes for $50k - and include 2 years of 'free' CRZ F/O time! Easyjet are doing similar in Europe now - the race to the bottom is getting to be a faster race !!

Airline CEOs must laugh over their Grange Hermitages and comment 'these pilots love their job so much they'd almost do it for free'.

inandout
30th Dec 2009, 19:17
FM gets $60770. The CFO pay is actually $59500, ( which is pathetic) with 12% super on top. In the VA EBA this would go to $108150 and $113453 by July 2010, 13% super on top, which is acceptable.

Sushi Muncher
30th Dec 2009, 19:44
Dear Metro Man,
These guys weren't offered 54,000 per year. More like 180,000 plus check and training allowance.
They maintain residences in Australia. Have worked overseas for the past 20 years. Are Australiana and are entitled to work here, just as you are, and are exercising that right, and their right to choose who they work for and the terms offered regardless of what you presume or speculate.

PBN
30th Dec 2009, 20:44
VB can DIR to VA and PB. However VA and PB can not DIR to VB period..........
What's the saying, pot kettle black, something like that anyway. Just my observations, don't yell at me about EBA's and deals I'm not interested.

greenslopes
30th Dec 2009, 20:52
For those in legacy carriers it may be some stretch to perceive working conditions different from their own. Fundamentally it comes down to feeding the family.
Thankfully these austere times will not last and those carriers taking advantage of the pilot surplus will have to raise the bar or suffer losses to those carriers who provide better working conditions and remuneration.
Until then we can all pontificate till the cows come home, but the reason why pilots accept these conditions is not as clear cut as many may presume.

I do not work for V Oz. I have worked throughout the Pacific and Europe and have been in the industry long enough to see that eventually the momentum will swing back in the pilots favour....it may unfortunately take a few accidents due to fatigue and excessive work practices before the pendulum swings the other way, and then only because of regulations introduced as business seems incapable of responsible self regulation.

Peace, Love and Happiness to all and a very successful New Year to all.

KRUSTY 34
30th Dec 2009, 21:49
fatbus.

Before you sign up as a 20 year old fresh CPL holder (if that's what you are), I think you'll find that...

The experience level of most VA CFO's is substantially greater.
Those VA CFO's with only a CPL are on much less than the $54K. I think the figure for non ATPL is around $43K!
Unless your career aspirations at 20 are for a lifetime stting in the rear seats, (because believe me that's what it means), unable to buy a house, raise a family, or even eventually fund a decent retirement, then maybe you should consider doing something else.And as far as benefits are concerned. Have you actually read the VA contract?

DirectAnywhere
30th Dec 2009, 22:12
I know it's not directly relaetd but as someone alluded to earlier, the following thread is of interest when it comes to future directions in airline hiring and what price management put on experience:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/399371-more-easyjet-pilot-slavery-deals-oxford-aviation-academy.html

Mr. Hat
30th Dec 2009, 22:41
There is alot of talk about "sitting in GA with no option of getting out". This seems very strange to me as I started in GA when there really was nothing. With a little patience and persistence everyone eventually moved onto better jobs. It was hard but not THAT hard (particularly in 07!).

I must say though that there was no option to sit in the back of a 777 back then so its hard to tell what individuals would have done given the chance. Personally I wanted and sought the experience and didn't apply for Domestic Airlines for a long time. Walking around in a shiny uniform with badges and pins wasn't my first priority learning how to do the job was.

Management are not "SCUM" for offering low wages thats part of what they do for a living people! Its up to groups of employees saying yes or no to the deal. Management are "SCUM" when they don't stick to signed EBA's by playing with weak points and grey areas. Pilots that vote during EBA's for poor conditions are "SCUM". As for chosing to work for a place where the conditions are already in place then each to their own.

Correct me if I'm wrong but negotiations are underway for a VA EBA right now aren't they? Could anyone provide any insight?

I'm interested to see the next episode. Where will the junior Cruise FO's get the experience? VB ejet? Right seat 777? The guys at Jetstar were made into 330 FO's so it has been done before. Can anyone recall what Cruise FO's were paid when Jetstar had them on the 330?

KRUSTY 34
30th Dec 2009, 23:18
There's something I can't quite get my head around Mr. Hat.

Why did VA choose not to offer a career path for VA Second Officers? The option of resigning after 3 years, being free to apply to another operator VB/PB, or anyone else for that matter (with no guarrentee of acceptance), and if sucessfull, years down the track being "allowed" to apply for a position back at VA as a SFO once the required minimum experience is gained (again with no guarentee of acceptance). I mean really, are people that gullible? Sorry, strike that last remark.

Anyway, my point is, is it really that difficult to offer a career path within VA? I don't know of any other airline that doesn't. Is it an insurance thing? Is the VA training system not evolved enough? Qantas do it with Cadets, and from what I believe quite sucessfully. Why do Qantas and every other international airline offer career progression, and VA do not?

If career progression were available at VA, then this whole debate would take on a different complextion. :confused:

snoop doggy dog
30th Dec 2009, 23:46
Agree Mr Hat about Management. :ok:

If negotiations are underway, I wouldn't hold my breath for those at the bottom of the sh!theap. Senior Pilots (all Pilots) have a knack for looking out for me only, at the exspense of the people they work with. :oh:

Crz FOs' I've been told by a mate who is one, are on around $110K all up. Has an easy roster and commutes. He has around 9000 hrs, mostly turbine for those wondering.

People get $15 p/h to work different jobs. The pr!cks at the airports in Oz probably get about that and take home $6-800 p/w. They have families, mortgages and they survive. Makes me :yuk: when I hear, "how can they survive on that!" If you were born with the "Silver Spoon" in your mouth and had Mummy and Daddy forked out for everything in the past, then maybe it's hard to survive on $50K a year. :zzz:

Anyway, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story I say. :ok:

Keg
31st Dec 2009, 00:02
Krusty, the difference between QF and VA is that QF have the opportunity to promote the back seater into an aircraft type where they'll be doing lots of sectors with the commensurate experience and currency gain- probably 20-30 landings a month. That's a very different thing to promoting into an aircraft where you'll be lucky to get 30 landings a year.

slice
31st Dec 2009, 02:30
Crz Fos on $110K all up at VA - hmmmm don't think so even including super and allowances and a few K of bonuses. Unless of course he/she is getting ex gratia payments as a management stooge!:E

hoss
31st Dec 2009, 02:34
can anyone please tell me what the salary is for a sfo based on july 2010 in the proposed eba.

yours in vitality!;)

Gnadenburg
31st Dec 2009, 03:42
Why do low cost pilots in Australia count compulsory superannuation contributions as part of their package? Strange. I've never noted a QF pilot doing similar.

And 54K a year is working class conditions. If that's what you think the profession is worth, I'm glad you weren't around when I started.

Wellhung Unit
31st Dec 2009, 04:35
Why do low cost pilots in Australia count compulsory superannuation contributions as part of their package? Strange. I've never noted a QF pilot doing similar

I think it's because VA pay 12% Super...compulsory superannuation is only 9%....Therefore it's above standard.....

Keg
31st Dec 2009, 04:38
By way of comparison, QF S/Os upon checking out are on circa $75K. O/T, allowances and super are on top of that. O/T depending on a/c type is going to be about $10K.

Within 18 months that increases to $95K (A330) to $105K (A380). O/T on the big bus and the 744 are going to add about 8-20% on top of those figures.

My first group certificate after being for just over 12 months as a S/O in 1995/96 was $68K. Take out the o/t and I think the pay 15 years ago for a S/O was probably still a bit more than it is now for VA S/Os. I no longer have copies of what the actual pay rate was back then but just goes to show how far the race to the bottom has progressed.

Blown Seal
31st Dec 2009, 05:51
Krusty, the difference between QF and VA is that QF have the opportunity to promote the back seater into an aircraft type where they'll be doing lots of sectors with the commensurate experience and currency gain- probably 20-30 landings a month. That's a very different thing to promoting into an aircraft where you'll be lucky to get 30 landings a year.

QF used to have vertical fleet promotion, as an example, CX only have that option (for their CADETS as well as DESO). One would think landing an aircraft was like neuro-surgery.

Angle of Attack
31st Dec 2009, 11:33
So what is the rating a CRZ F/O gets?
Command or Co-Pilot?
Very Quiet so far!

Tankengine
31st Dec 2009, 13:08
'I think it's because VA pay 12% Super...compulsory superannuation is only 9%....Therefore it's above standard.....'

Qantas pay up to 27% depending on division and age.[from latest div6 blurb]:}
Most div2 are about 17%, most div3 about 13% and latest div6 on 10%.
[wish I hadn't changed from div1!:(]

They don't pay this because they are good blokes, we need to fight for our conditions.:ugh:

Now, back to the shit pay thread.....:ugh::ugh:

UnderneathTheRadar
31st Dec 2009, 20:29
Quote:
Why do low cost pilots in Australia count compulsory superannuation contributions as part of their package? Strange. I've never noted a QF pilot doing similar
I think it's because VA pay 12% Super...compulsory superannuation is only 9%....Therefore it's above standard.....

Pretty standard practice these days by companies desperate to look like they're paying more than they are AND by employees desperate to justify the crap they're accepting in place of a decent wage.

UTR

MrSheffield
31st Dec 2009, 23:02
Crz FOs' I've been told by a mate who is one, are on around $110K all up. Has an easy roster and commutes. He has around 9000 hrs, mostly turbine for those wondering.

Your mate is feeding you absolute crap, he / she obviously insecure about his / her pay. I have mates in V oz and have seen the contract, and ull find that if u halve the amount stated above, u are closer to the mark.

flamingmoe
1st Jan 2010, 03:52
Unless he's an SFO, he's feeding you a porkie pie...54k, zero add-ons...

Several mates are QF S/O's, both 744 and A380...WELL north of 150k, and PLENTY of time to surf the northern beaches.

YoDawg
2nd Jan 2010, 12:07
He really had no answer and guess what would've happened if morons like you and everyone else had've said the same thing?


They'd have hired even more South Africans and a bunch of Jet Airways Indians who'd happily take up the offer to get away from their own countries to someplace nice with a social welfare system waiting to be abused.

Sunstar320
2nd Jan 2010, 20:24
Would be great to hear from someone who actually flies for Voz to clarify all this stuff for us, anyone out there?
Well, chances are high that they will get eaten alive it seems.

ad-astra
2nd Jan 2010, 21:21
snoop doggy dog


"Crz FOs' I've been told by a mate who is one, are on around $110K all up. Has an easy roster and commutes. He has around 9000 hrs, mostly turbine for those wondering.

Anyway, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story I say."



YES lets NOT let those nasty facts get in the way!
Never a truer word has been spoken and perhaps the soap box that you are standing on is not quite as sturdy as you think!

V Australia jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/V_Australia)

KRUSTY 34
3rd Jan 2010, 00:00
It seems those pay scales are from the early days of VA. In the original contract the only scope for increases was at the "Company's pleasure", from what I hear they have not changed. Hopefully the upcoming EBA will produce something better, but if the quoted "$110K up" for CFO's (which incidently the original poster appears to have deleted) is actually what the Negotiators are aiming for, well a 100% increase over the current amount suggests a level of optimism somewhat removed from reality!

The Captain's salary seems OK, for those returning home to a "retirement job", but the F/O base of $114K has no "Top" proviso. Jes#s H Chr!st! I earned more than that last year as a Turboprop driver! Has there been any movement from the RHS to the LHS? From what I have heard, none. Considering the provisions of the VB EBA, and VA's track record of only employing DEC's, What the hell are you guys thinking?

I reckon the "negotiators" have their work cut out for them. Best of luck Boys and Girls. :sad:

Mr. Hat
3rd Jan 2010, 00:07
The EBA cant be too far away.

Are you getting on the next recruitment wave KRUSTY?

KRUSTY 34
3rd Jan 2010, 01:04
You never know Mr. Hat.

But I think it's safe to say a VA CFO position is not on my shopping list.:ok:

ozangel
3rd Jan 2010, 02:44
Lordy, if that link is right, cabin crew (not supervisors) are being paid more to work on the EMB170.

The cabin crew are not 'overpaid' for the hours and lifestyle they lead, so that is seriously disturbing.

Even as a Railway Station Officer (selling train tickets) for Queensland Rail, you would earn more. (QR advertised for Part Time Train Guards - they just blow a whistle and ding the bell - make the odd PA and rarely even see the public - not security work - 4 days a week, $58,000 plus good super and allowances)

(Both jobs of which require minimal training, which you are paid for - has the aviation world gone mad?!?!).

And spare the BS about love of the job, and how its a wonderful company - thats a joke!

ad-astra
3rd Jan 2010, 04:53
A somewhat more accurate source of details which were Cut n Paste from a company email sent on the 20 Feb 2009.

So unless VAustralia have become little more generous I would suggest that these are the figures you are signing up for today.


THE ROLE OF CRUISE RELIEF FIRST OFFICER
CRFO SALARY
Band 1 – with CPL only $47,775 base salary
Band 2 – with ATPL $53,500 base salary
Superannuation 12 % on top of your base salary
Virgin Blue Group Company Profit Share Plan Potential to earn up to an additional 3% on base salary
Individual Incentive plan Potential to earn up to an additional 5% on base salary
Band 1 – with CPL Training Salary $38, 220 base training salary not including superannuation
Band 2 – with ATPL Training Salary $42, 800 base training salary not including superannuation
Training Salary
A training wage will be paid at 80% of your base salary from day 1 of your training until the last day of your initial training school
period.
Your salary will be reviewed at least annually, along with your progress and development needs.
Incentive Plans
The company profit share plan and the individual incentive plan are contingent on achievement of certain criteria concerning both
personal and company performance and may be changed at V Australia’s discretion. Further information about these two
incentive/profit plans will be provided to you after you commence employment.


THE ROLE OF FIRST OFFICER
FIRST OFFICER SALARY
Base Salary $114,000 base salary
Superannuation 12 % on top of your base salary
Virgin Blue Group Company Profit Share Plan Potential to earn up to an additional 3% on base salary
Individual Incentive plan Potential to earn up to an additional 5% on base salary
Incentive Plans
The company profit share plan and the individual incentive plan are contingent on achievement of certain criteria concerning both
personal and company performance and may be changed at V Australia’s discretion. Further information about these two
incentive/profit plans will be provided to you after you commence employment.


THE ROLE OF CAPTAIN
CAPTAIN SALARY
Base Salary $175,000 base salary
Superannuation 12 % on top of your base salary
Virgin Blue Group Company Profit Share Plan Potential to earn up to an additional 3% on base salary
Individual Incentive plan Potential to earn up to an additional 5% on base salary
Incentive Plans
The company profit share plan and the individual incentive plan are contingent on achievement of certain criteria concerning both
personal and company performance and may be changed at V Australia’s discretion. Further information about these two
incentive/profit plans will be provided to you after you commence employment.

funbags
3rd Jan 2010, 04:55
An absolute disgrace.

Aviation in Australia is buggered. :mad:

Anthill
3rd Jan 2010, 04:56
Ad-Astra.

Pay rises since then. 10% for CFOs, 3% everyone else.

ad-astra
3rd Jan 2010, 05:03
Thanks at least its going in the right direction.

I have no real axe to grind one way or the other just wanted some accurate figures for the discussion.

drshmoo
3rd Jan 2010, 05:51
CFO - Considering some of the experience some of the guys have, they would have had to take a significant pay cut.

F/O and CPT wages are absolute rubbish too.

Very sad day for OZ aviation!

Equatorial
3rd Jan 2010, 08:21
As was said previous cactusjack they might as well call those 'incentives' arse kissers remuneration. Don't do the extra shit and you don't get the bonus. As someone else said GA with jets.

Voz should be disgusted for offering such a deal but I bet they laugh at the fact that people do accept them. You'd think people would tell them to stick it when it says the incentives can be removed at Voz's discretion, read that as fat chance of seeing it charlie! I think the race to the bottom just found a world record holder!

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

Grey Nomad
3rd Jan 2010, 09:26
The real question is why the CRFO's joined VA and not QF, Jetstar or even VB?
Prior to the GFC a great deal of opportunities and better prospects must have been available. For the majority, I can only assume they must have been unsuccessful with their applications with the better carriers and the job at VA was the last opportunity to fly a jet. I can't imagine that any future EBA negotiations will bring about any great improvements in conditions. Basically, with VIPA and the AFAP not exactly on speaking terms the whole process will take an eternity. This will be much to the delight of the boss of HR. My advice to those unfortunate CRFO's who are waiting for any form of promotion or improvement in conditions in VA is to start applying for another job with another airline. This will at least give you a window seat and put some money in your pocket.

Howard Hughes
3rd Jan 2010, 10:32
V Oz did me a favour and didn't give me a job, if they did I probably would be in the poor house and without a wife by now...

Instead life is good!:ok:

PS: I have never applied to QF or VB, knocked back an inteview with JQ, but really wanted to fly a B777 based in Oz, that was my motivation, luckily now that urge has passed...;)

YoDawg
3rd Jan 2010, 16:46
The real question is why the CRFO's joined VA and not QF

A lot of pilots are relatively poorly-educated. No high school passes in physics, mathematics, English etc means they have no chance with Qantas.

Some pilots haven't even finished high school. Maybe for them, VO is the next best chance and represents good coin for no real education other than flying training.

Bo777
3rd Jan 2010, 21:59
YoDawg
I'd like to know where you got your unsubstantiated facts from?
A lot of pilots are relatively poorly-educated.
... and could you please quantify "a lot" and "some".

43Inches
3rd Jan 2010, 22:30
What is good coin?

The job i'm in at the moment pays over half of what these captains are getting (before tax, even better off after) on an aircraft 20 times smaller. I'm also at home the majority of the roster with an average of 30 duty hour weeks, no back of the clock work and the company pays all expenses (endorsement, training, uniform, parking etc...). I would have to take a cut of at leats 50% for the crz FO position and still lose if I trade for an FO position.
I can't see how the remuneration is adequate considering the increased responsibility on much longer sectors to international locations whilst toasting in cosmic radiation. Maybe a lack of education is a requirement.

Red Jet
4th Jan 2010, 00:41
What most posters on this thread don't seem to realise, is that when comparing the T&C of VA with QF and the like, they are not comparing apples with apples. The current conditions at QF are reflective of several decades of collective bargaining power, while VA is a start-up operation. The managers at VA would not be doing their job, if they didn't pay as little as they can get away with, while attracting crew of the experience they reckon is required.

We (VA crew) are busy biding our time, getting organised through the respective unions (VIPA/AFAP), all in preparation for collective bargaining, and the result of this bargaining process will be indicative of / as well as a result of, the existing market forces.

And to those of you who think that we must be a bunch of imbecile, uneducated third rank pilots who just couldn't get in with QANTAS, well - you may believe whatever you like but I can assure you that the level of education and experience among the pilots, is very high. Our current Captains come from Singapore Airlines, Cathay, Emirates, QANTAS, Jetstar, Korean, Asiana, South African Airways, VB etc., and the SFO's and many of the CFO's have multiple thousand hours and many of us high jet time in International and Domestic Operations. Personally I have never even applied to QF, because my choice was to not work for an organisation driven by a megalomaniac narcissist and it has been my experience that the QF-staff has become very bitter and twisted while completely disengaging from the company they are working for. Listening to the drivel coming from (alleged) QF staff on this forum, I am completely satisfied that my choice has been correct and that it would have driven me stir bonkers, should I have to be locked up in a cockpit for several hours with some of the twats loitering around here. Back to your bunk, you "Warrens":}

And to KRUSTY and his mates: - so you've made your decision that a 777 start-up operation in Australia is of no interest to you and have elected to stay where you are - well, good for you, but fer Christsakes, do yourself and us a favour and stop obsessing over it:ok:

43Inches
4th Jan 2010, 01:12
I think KRUSTY has good credentials with regard to writing about accepting lower wages to launch a brand then expecting conditions to dramatically improve over future EBA negotiations.

Any airline that starts up spruiking it can do everything better at half the price on the back of paying its staff half the going rate is just going to reduce conditions for everyone. That is why employees of other operators are voicing their opinion, and should be concerned.

B772
4th Jan 2010, 01:21
It is interesting to note the total investment return from VB shares over the past 12 months is 132.8%; whereas QF is 17.6%.

In fact the QF total average annual return per annum over the last 10 years has been a paltry 4.8%. After allowing for inflation and taxation on the dividends beyond the franking credits you would be in a loss situation.

During the last 10 years QF International has surrenderd significant loss of market share and resultant Australian jobs to competing carriers.

ditch handle
4th Jan 2010, 01:28
During the last 10 years QF International has surrenderd significant loss of market share and resultant Australian jobs to competing carriers.

Yes. By design :mad:

Keg
4th Jan 2010, 01:37
... is that when comparing the T&C of VA with QF and the like, they are not comparing apples with apples.

Both carriers operate heavy jet aircraft on trans-pacific routes. They both look like pretty similar apples to me.

To extend the 'apple' analogy a bit though, one company is selling apples having been in business for a long time, the other started business last year. In the world as I tend to see it, apple pickers, machinery drivers, mechanics, front line staff or whatever doing essentially the same job in the new start should be smart enough to demand similar remuneration as is on offer at the place down the road that has been around for a bunch of years. Of course if the 'other stuff' on offer from the start up means that you don't feel the need to be remunerated in the same form as the legacy company then that's a trade off the individual needs to weigh up. It appears that the 'other stuff' needs to account for 50-60% of the terms and conditions on offer at the legacy company. Is that worth it? Is the prospect of a quick promotion going to make up for the lack of conditions in the first few years? Based on the numbers that I've seen I wouldn't think so.

Given the experience level that VOz contributors keep telling me exists in VA, I still can't see why they value themselves so far beneath what is on offer at the legacy carrier- even if all the other stuff is taken into account.

Red Jet
4th Jan 2010, 01:56
- doing essentially the same job in the new start should be smart enough to demand similar remuneration as is on offer at the place down the road that has been around for a bunch of years.

You can be as "smart" as you like, but unless you're sitting across the negotiating table, you cannot negotiate!! Or, to put it differently, unless you get yourself "inside" and accumulate collective bargaining power, you are just a wannabe, that reckons reality "should" be different to what it actually is.

Everyone can (and should) work out for themselves the math, with regard to the merits of accepting lower overall conditions in order to gain a quicker Command position. My attempt at cracking these numbers led me to the choice that I made. I am in my forties now, but if I had been in my early twenties faced with the same equation, clearly the outcome would have been different. Perhaps it is a good idea to refrain from making assumptions with regard to how others have come up with a different answer to your own.

Anyways, VA appear to be holding together with very good loads and improving yield. It's a great place to come to work, we can feed our families and the future looks bright! Get over it people:ok:

OhSpareMe
4th Jan 2010, 01:57
Personally I have never even applied to QF, because my choice was to not work for an organisation driven by a megalomaniac narcissist and it has been my experience that the QF-staff has become very bitter and twisted while completely disengaging from the company they are working for.

Is that it RedJet? Is that the reason that you wouldn't apply? You gotta be kidding us mate. Perhaps you really are better suited to all that 'Virgin Flair' nonsense. In which case I wish you well.

I can tell you Bro' that working for QANTAS is the best job I have ever had. Meglomanical Narccissist? Who gives a toss. I am glad that I didn't let stupid ideas like that influence my career choice.

For the record I am an A330 FO and my base salary at what is called the Min Guarantee is about 5K less than the quoted 777 Capt at VA. You could easily add a further 20 K in salary and another 15 K in allowances without even raising a sweat. And my payscale is two levels below the big fella 380.

Still reckon it is that good at VA? Me thinks you are being dudded. Good luck with your negotitations (truly).

breakfastburrito
4th Jan 2010, 01:59
43 Inches is correct.
Lets look at just one such GA practice, paying for endorsements. Pioneered by Impulse, perfected by VB & now considered "Industry Practice" by everyone else.

Management will spin it any which way they want to justify less pay. There is no "start-up" discount fuel, aircraft, spares, maintenance, overflight, landing or airport charges. The only group that seem to be willing to take a hit to justify a start-up is the crew. To believe otherwise is naive.

Redjet, ask some of your colleges about promises of T&C's improvement once the VB start-up phase had passed. Did VB's T&C's improve when Ansett collapsed and the market was wide open?
It was a long and bitter campaign to improve the T&C's for VB.

It is the continuing rachetting down of T&C's that we are all concerned about.
Every concession that an operator extracts is immediately used by all the other operators to pressure their own crew, and in turn the feedback loop will come back to pressure you.

inandout
4th Jan 2010, 02:20
OhSpare Me,
Not sure how your base on the A330 is $175,000.as a FO. I have in front of me my friends Group Certificate, Capt at QF on the A330 SYDQCC2
Gross Payments $192,418
Reportable fringe benifits amount $21,100.
Total Taxable $203,598
Va Capt now $180,000
set to go up to $216,000 in EBA if it gets up.

600ft-lb
4th Jan 2010, 02:51
It is interesting to note the total investment return from VB shares over the past 12 months is 132.8%; whereas QF is 17.6%.

In fact the QF total average annual return per annum over the last 10 years has been a paltry 4.8%. After allowing for inflation and taxation on the dividends beyond the franking credits you would be in a loss situation.


I think you'll find the VB share price was as low as it was because the market considered it to be INSOLVENT for quite a period. If the GFC lasted longer, VB wouldn't of.

If the shares you originally bought at $2.60 dropped to 17cents in 4 years, would you be gloating ? $2.60 to where it is now 56cents or so is still nothing to gloat about. Well done VB, share holder value has been destroyed well and good, great success.

Autobrakes4
4th Jan 2010, 03:09
inandout, he must be the only one!

744 F/O about 240000, 767 Capt about 240000, 380 F/O about 260000, 744 S/O (senior) about 170000, 330 Capt about 260000. Shall I go on? And this is with low divisors! (Includes allowances, about 15000 a year)

43Inches
4th Jan 2010, 03:25
A quote from the not too distant past, (2006)


Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were realistic compared to the higher rates of pay offered by Qantas, which were "not right".
"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," he said.
The $180,000 annual salary of a Jetstar A330 captain is around $100,000 less than a Qantas captain is paid. Jetstar co-pilots will be paid around $100,000 a year.
Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were in line with several Asian airlines


This is what all airline managers think of the QF payscales, VB management would be no different.

Do you really think VOz payscales are going to improve enough to be competetive with current QF pay?

The reality is that operating pressures are more likely to lead to QF wages decreasing (or being replaced with lower cost alternatives) rather than VOz wages climbing.

KRUSTY 34
4th Jan 2010, 03:26
B772,

I think you need to blunten your pencil a bit mate.

You quote a rise in VB shares of 132.8% over the past 12 months, and QF shares only 17.6%. Fantastic (pretty good for QF as well I must say) if you bought VB shares 12 months ago. But if you're using that rationale to support their respective strengths, what were VB shares 5 years ago? I think you'll find that anyone holding VB shares from then would only dream of QF's "paltry" 4.8%. The fact that VB shares have risen from Disasterous to Sh!thouse over the last year is probably not reason enough to break out the bubbly just yet?

Gidday Red Jet.

Can you tell the forum how long it is to command at VOZ? DEC's excluded of course. :ok:

Grey Nomad
4th Jan 2010, 03:43
Red Jet as much as I would like to believe your statements comparing pay scales with legacy carriers like QF,unfortunately I can't. Most of the VA pilots accepted a " low cost/new world carrier wage" because of the following:

1. Overseas Captains: it was the last chance to join as an Oz based 777 operator as a DEC, sick of the sandpit, >55 year old retired ( CX ) guys with the need to top up the super fund after the GFC. Some perhaps genuinely needed a job after being screwed by SQ etc.

2. Overseas F.O's: Perhaps sick of being overseas and needed to get home, some for migration and a better and safer life for the family. Perhaps a few came from smaller domestic operators and had the need to fly internationally on a larger A/C . Most of them I imagine felt that they had a genuine chance at a quick promotion and were willing to accept the lower pay and take the risk.

3.CRFO's: Some may have been unsuccessful at obtaining a jet job or were too old to try again when another opportunity arose. Others may have thought that it may provide a good opportunity to gain some valuable experience prior to moving onto QF, CX or a middle eastern carrier as a cadet/second officer. Most I imagine also took a calculated gamble in the hope they may be promoted quickly to an F.O. position.

I can only believe most decisions to join VA were made due to desperation or a calculated gamble. It looks that mostly things have not worked out at the last chance saloon.

OhSpareMe
4th Jan 2010, 03:47
In and Out -

my A330 FO hourly rate is $154.68. At 160 credit hrs Min Guarantee per bid period x 6.5 bid periods per annum that is $160867.20. Add 6 days of training (4x sims and 2 x EPs/Security) at 33 hrs credit that is $5104. Include a quaint little allowance called STACR of $3697 per annum and we get.............$169668.40.

Damn enough near to $170K which is 5K less than the figure quoted earlier of $175K for a VA Captain on an earlier post. If it is now at 180K then I suppose I am about 10K less than a VA Captain flogging across the Pacific (and I believe to Johburg and others). If their pay is to go up to $216K I am happy for them. I guess I shall overtake that when I move up to the 380.

To be honest, last years 08/09 total pay was all up just north of 200K (not including Super).

I still reckon you are being dudded.

Red Jet
4th Jan 2010, 03:49
Gidday Krusty!
Plan A:
18 more DEC's to go to VB'captains - that will pretty much mean no internal upgrades until the arrival of the 7th aircraft in Q4 2011. At that point internal upgrades will start and roll out at whatever rate the next 6 option'ed aircraft arrive.

Plan B:
The rumoured -200LR's arrive from Q4 2010 onwards, in which case all bets are off. Command courses start in last half of 2010 for SFO's.

Plan C:
Most of the current Captains take the advice from oracles of PPruNE and leave henceforth, whilst any budding DEC's from the sandpit bow out, regretting having had the audacity to even contemplate getting out of bed in the morning for less than 300K/per annum, in return for a place in the sun in the Lucky Country. We'll be doing Command courses next week - still sure you don't wanna come join us...??;)

coaldemon
4th Jan 2010, 03:50
Ah Krusty I do enjoy your glass half full outlook on life.

I know one Virgin pilot who has almost a million shares in VB bought near the bottom. He is currently sitting on a substantial capital gain so as the smarter investors know it is the price you buy assets for that makes you the big money. People can carry on about what was the price 5 years ago (for quite a lot of companies on the ASX) but it all comes down to when you bought them.

There will be no DECs employed this year externaly to the Virgin Group for VA according to management and there will be probably some promotions. THe DEC's were a required thing for the start up phase exactly the same as Jetstar's A330 operation. Redjet hit the nail on the head with where VA is. It is a startup no matter what anyone on this forum says whilst Qantas has had decades to put their T&Cs in place. THis is exactly why Jetstar was born although no reference is made to their conditions in reference to VA. I find the numbers quoted on here for Qantas interesting as none of my friends in the left seat on the 76 or A330 are doing anywhere near the "accurate" numbers put on this website.

Enjoy the rest of the glass half empty.

YoDawg
4th Jan 2010, 04:11
I'd like to know where you got your unsubstantiated facts from?

Who said they were unsubstantiated? A number of years ago, I was in the HR office of a large airline here in Australia. I was shown two piles of applications all of which were from experienced airline pilots. One pile looked to be roughly 60% of the total and the other, 40%. Added up they were in the hundreds.

It was pointed out to me that the applications in the smaller pile were all from qualified pilots who I described as above. None of them were being processed further because they did not have passes in Physics or Mathematics or English or all three. So while 100% of this pilot group held ATPLs, roughly 40% of them were not high school graduates as far as HR were concerned.

This is not something someone told me about; this is something I saw. I based my statement on that and the talk in here whenever the topic comes up and the number of posters who openly admit not having the quals.

As for "a lot", I was using the phrase in the manner of the economic meaning of "many" which if I remember correctly is something akin to a substantial proportion of the total but not more than a half.

Autobrakes4
4th Jan 2010, 04:15
coaldemon, then your friends in the left hand seat are telling you porkies. I just looked up the new pay rates at the end of the last eba. For eg 767 capt is on $212/hour. Multiply by 6.5 bid periods in a year multiply by 160 hour divisor (which is minimum) equals 220000, plus training etc, plus allowance equals 240000. This is minimum..... If divisors rise, plus incremented pay rises this goes up. And a 330 captain is on at least 5% more. You can't discount these figures, they are accurate and very conservative. It's basic maths.

I'm sure Keg as a current 767 Capt can confirm this.

Anthill
4th Jan 2010, 04:42
I find the title of this thread to be a delicious irony..:)

wingswest
4th Jan 2010, 05:28
The $54k is basic pay...,$12000 allowances and $2000 increment. I'll add that up for those of you working at 'oh-so-more-important-airlines'....,$68K..., as I'm sure you are so well-off you'd normally get someone else to add up for you.

Yep, nowhere near as much as you Captain Starships at other established carriers but, hey....,with a couple of little kids now....,at least I'm not poking through summer thunderstorms in a 30+ year-old, clapped-out Baron, up north living on half that wage in a hovel and 1000 miles away from my family. I get to work with a great bunch of crew, a nice hotel, an expanding route network, a damn nice aircraft and I am home 15 nights a month. Beats the 9-5 grind. VA suits me and my situation fine...,gave me the opportunity/start that otherwise I wouldn't have got. These benefits might seem insignificant/'little' blessings to some of you but we all have different backgrounds and life-experiences on which to base our expectations.

You stick to your planes and I'll stick to mine.:ok:

Happy and Safe flying to all!!

Anthill
4th Jan 2010, 05:32
..and Wingswest didn't have to pay for type rating.:ok:

43Inches
4th Jan 2010, 06:21
Wingswest, the reason the 'starship' captains are criticising the income is for your future benefit! They are paid these figures already so could just sit back and watch the future generations sell themselves short for quick progression. For you to come out swinging against them is testiment to how far you can see beyond the end of your nose. No pilot is forced to do this job and spends much to reach even a basic level.

Sure does beat the 9-5 but after you've done it a few years you are going to want more for your effort than the ego trip of flying a big jet and then where?


VA suits me and my situation fine...,gave me the opportunity/start that otherwise I wouldn't have got.


Why do people who have been enslaved always make this comment to justify their decision, although always used to hear it from underpaid GA pilots not 777 crew.

breakfastburrito
4th Jan 2010, 07:02
Why do people who have been enslaved always make this comment to justify their decision, although always used to hear it from underpaid GA pilots not 777 crew.
43 Inches, on a tear, a collective dose of Stockholm Syndrome
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome).

If you want to see how the race to bottom is panning out in the land of the free, read this quote. This is not fiction or some academic discussion but real life.
If the rot doesn't stop soon could very well be YOUR reality before you retire.
Please, never complain & tell us you weren't warned.


Michael Moore's pointing out something no one in the media seems to want to discuss: How little money the people who are flying commercial planes are getting paid. As he says, these are not the people you want working a second job:

We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.

"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.

"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.

"Did I do something wrong?"

"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")

The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.

"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."

He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.

I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.

"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.

I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.

"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.

"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."

And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.

Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks.
Mike Moore (http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/michael-moore-do-you-want-airline-pil)

Bo777
4th Jan 2010, 07:08
YoDawg
A number of years ago
No comment:ugh:

In regards to those pilots who accept T & C's such as Voz... shame, shame, shame:=

nitpicker330
4th Jan 2010, 07:12
Wingswest: geez mate, sold yourself a bit cheap didn't ya?

Just think about your contribution to the overall good of the Pilot profession whilst you cross the Pacific for the 100th time. Gets a bit thin after while doesn't it? More to life than flying a shiny new ER isn't there?

Well done, we are so proud of you.

Tidbinbilla
4th Jan 2010, 07:37
I find the title of this thread to be a delicious irony..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Kind of like steely, or bronzey. Only made of iron. ;)

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