Push back without Fasten Your Seatbelts

[eilean76]

Hello
Is it allowed for an airplane to move (being pushed back) and the passangers are standing and overhead bins are open?
Are there exceptions?
Do you know of a link to a site with regulations?

THANKS
eilean

[BEagle]

It sounds rather risky to me.

A few years ago I was boarding a BEA (not the 'real' BEA!) 146 via its integral stairs and was halfway up when someone connected the tug to the towbar in preparation for the pushback - which I thought was rather asking for trouble. I'd never let the guys couple up with passengers in the process of actually boarding - if the aircraft were to move as a passenger was going through the door, there would be a distinct possibility of him/her stumbling and knocking a few others off the steps....

It can surely wait a couple of minutes before people are on board?

[Obie]

Shouldn't be too hard for a smart bloke like you to Google the appropriate web site to get your answer? :)

[tom35]

No regulation about it, it's more an airline policy. But it's always the captain responsability, if a passenger fall down without the "fstnbelt" sign on you gonna have troubles

[BOAC]

A few years back I enquired formally (having learnt the hard way) of BA whether I was required to ensure a secure cabin before pushback since they then had no procedure in place (that may have changed) and was told no! The problem usually arose when a frantic dispatcher pushed the last pax through the door and shut it (to get his/her 'on-time' departure). I always briefed my crew to let me know if there was a problem in the cabin especially when I saw sweat and fear on the dispatcher's face.........................

For tom35 - this has nothing to do with seatbelt signs! I do think it is an area that needs tightening up in many airlines. A towbar snap or sudden tug stop can cause injury in the cabin. I would prefer a 'cabin secure' notification to be part of the SOPs before pushback. Nothing is that urgent in life (except in ...........:))

[TeachMe]

Then there was the Air India flight I was on a few years ago out of Hong Kong. For the first 10-15 seconds at the start of the take off roll, flight attendant 'flies' down the aisle front to back slamming overhead bins shut on her way as passengers hurry to sit down and buckle up.

[fabbe92]

Last year I experienced something similliar on Ryanair. We were standing on a parking stand and it was just to taxi straight forward without being pushed back. 1L door was open when they closed the cockpit door and the engines started to roll and passengers were standing up. They closed the door and started a turbo speed safety demo and I noticed that we were entering the runway but no "seats for take off" had been said yet. Finaly after completing checks and everything they said, seats for take off and waited 2 seconds, then they released the thrust. Luckily the f/as were allready seated but anyway.

Am I wrong or weren´t they following the checklist? Passengers should be seated and Doors close before they start with the startup checklist right? And f/as should be seated before the line on the t/o checklist if I remember right.

Cheers!

[crispey]

Highly irresponsible I would have thought

Way back when,I was on an Aerolot IL-76 from Tashkent to Mosgow a gentleman stood up and played an accordian during the take off roll.He was cheered roundly.

Also way back when, from flying from Inverness to Glasgow I was rather surprised to find the chap alongside lighting up a gasper on route to the holding point.Seems he'd been on the rigs for a month and was desperate.He was also drinking neat gin.Friendly chap though.He wasn't too bothered about the regs.I gave up trying to advise him.

[hapzim]

And as for those pax who are up and getting their gear out of the over head lockers and not yet on stand with the engines shut down, even though they have just been reminded to remain seated. Whats the rush to stand like sardines and wait for the doors to be opened:ugh:

[matkat]

Taxying down the hill for T/O at Istanbul for a Haji flight back to Jeddah a screaming noise is heard as the flight tech I looked back and on the top deck of a B747 there was a Hajii on his knees praying.
We took off anyway.

[parabellum]

There should be no problem connecting the tow bar and tug whilst PAX are boarding just so long as the appropriate hydraulics are DEPRESSURISED, often part of the check list and drills.

Can't speak for the military, but in the civilian world, where tugs and tow bars may be shared and the handling may be with another company other than one's own then if you decline to allow ground crew to attach and connect when they are ready you may just lose your push back for an hour or two!

In the long haul world the tug and crew were often dedicated to your aircraft regardless, for a substantial period after scheduled push back, not so in short haul and charter world.

[Avman]

Crispey, just for info, the IL-76 is a cargo aircraft. Perhaps it was an IL-62?

[Checkboard]

Most airlines have a procedure to count the passengers on board as a final check that everyone who is supposed to be on board actually made it to the aircraft (there are also counts at the booking, check-in and gate stages - so this is really a "final" check). You can't count the passengers while they are standing about, so this procedure requires that they are seated before the numbers are checked with the dispatcher. The dispatcher then leaves the aircraft and the push back (or taxi off) can commence.

I have never seen a formal requirement, in the three airlines I have worked for, for the passengers to be seated - but the seatbelt sign 'ON' is usually part of the pre start checklist. There aren't any requirements written in law about it.

Is it unsafe to have the passengers standing at push back? Of course not - or we wouldn't let the FAs stand, either! We are only talking about walking speeds here.

[fabbe92]

Haha that reminds me of a Air Berlin flight last summer from Berlin to Rome. While landing in Rome, a lady got up to get her makeup from the overhead bin while the aircraft was flaring over the runway. And the crew shouted at her during deboarding, so funny:}

How stupid can one be, really:D

[BOAC]

so this procedure requires that they are seated before the numbers are checked with the dispatcher not in BA, Sir! Therein lies the main part of the problem.

PS Have you ever had a towbar break or a tug do an emergency stop?

[Checkboard]

Yes to both. Yes, you can stop with a "jerk", and fall over. That's hardly on a par with flying through the forward bulkhead at 40 mph. As I said - we let the cabin crew walk around. :)

Having said that - I cant ever think of a situation where I have pushed with passengers standing.

[BOAC]

Aha! Of course, but WE don't charge our c/crew for flying with us unlike our pax:).

The situation not unknown in BA with the 'on-time' departure pressures.

eilean - if you are still around - I presume you had an 'experience' reason for asking?

[hvogt]

eilean,

as far as commercial air transport operation under EU OPS 1 is concerned, the answer is yes (at least in principle). Push back with passengers standing and overhead bins open is allowed. However, this does not apply to taxiing. As soon as you taxi PAX must sit with seat belts fastened. Also, whenever deemed necessary in the interest of safety seats must be occupied and belts fastend. This is why I, if I was a captain, would never accept a push back before everybody is seated and bins are closed.

EU OPS 1.320 (b) 1.
Before take-off and landing, and during taxiing, and whenever deemed necessary in the interest of safety, the commander shall ensure that each passenger on board occupies a seat or berth with his/her safety belt, or harness where provided, properly secured.

Since the above mentioned provision prescribes seat belts to be fastend and PAX sitting during taxi, it follows (argumentum e contrario) that during other periods (i.e for the push back) PAX may stand.

Regards,

hvogt

[crispey]

Yes indeed Avman.Twas the 62 of course.Thanks for that.Memory trouble or finger trouble.I forget which.

[eilean76]

I was on a flight and we landed and taxied to the gate. The pilot went too far so the jetty could not get to the door so the airplane had to be pushed back.

This happened while everyone was standing and taking the luggage out... very dangerous in my opinion.

So I guess the pilot is covered and he can do it?

[bizdev]

Was on a Middle East Airline two years ago that within seconds after touching down on landing in Riyadh virtually the whole cabin stood up to remove their stuff from the hattracks - while we were still decelerating! Crazy