Cannibals at the Cathay 'feast'

[Wiley]

I'm saddened but not surprised to read posts from people glorying over the current crisis the Cathay pilots are undergoing. Even if you accept that a number of these posts are from management stooges, (which some undoubtedly are), others are almost certainly from that same class of person who so enjoyed - and in some cases, actively assisted in - the demise of the Australian pilots twelve years ago. They glory in the defeat the Australians suffered, and with a leap of (il)logic that defies comprehension, go on to complain how the Australians 'flooded' the overseas job market taking 'their' jobs.

However heavy the chip on someone's shoulder may be about Cathay or some pilot in Cathay who's slighted him, anyone who's actually a pilot (or aspires to be one) who is enjoying watching what's being done to the Cathay pilots has so little imagination as the near certain consequences of the current Cathay management's actions that it's a little frightening to think of that person planning a flight from A to B.

To the Cathay pilots, my deepest best wishes for a speedy and sensible solution to your current travails. You appear to be confronted with the same intransigent brick wall of 'macho' management stupidity we were twelve years ago.

Most importantly, may the weakest links in your membership prove to be stronger than the weakest links among my colleagues twelve years ago.

[iflyboeing747]

Wiley:
Good points..

..and let me add, that I think nobody really ever takes jobs from others. The market has always been open and moving, and will continue to be like that..

A pilot will of course take the job chance that arises if he/she can fulfil it..
Next time another pilot will take an opportunity that you could have had, but it didn't suit you then..

It may well be that there are some instances in history, which "smells" of "inbreeding" - but I've not really heard of such..maybe I haven't heard enough yet..?

Have a good day folks..!

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Captain Skywave ]

[Spad]

Captain Skywave, did I understand you to say: "..and let me add, that I think nobody really ever takes jobs from others."

If you believe that Captain, you must hold the record for the quickest rise to 'command' in the history of this industry! Either that, or you've led a very protected life.

Best of luck to the CX fellows.

[iflyboeing747]

OK - maybe I didn't express myself very clear..

What I mean is:
if jobs are available in a certain company, then these obviously will be filled by the guys who applies first..
If afterwards it shows that there are e.g. too many expats compared to locals, I don't think it means that the expats "took" the jobs from the locals. The locals were just not at the right time the right place. But that can change over time - this is what I mean with a moving and constantly changing business..

..and SPAD: no I've done my carreer the "hard" way, following a seniority list whereever I've been - no "free tickets" as suggested by you..

I look very positive on our business, and accept that there may be unsatisfying terms around - which we have our unions to take care of - with my support or not - but in general I'm satisfied with the business.

Regarding what happens these days in CX:
I think it's a shame of the management to "throw" so many employees out on the street - but then again - I don't know enough about what happens in CX, so I'll refrain from going too deep into this.
I just feel very sorry for all those guys. Must be terrible with family, financial obligations etc..

[Kaptin M]

Looking at the FACTS of the 1989 Australian pilots' Dispute, a management that decided to use those tactics would need his head read.

There were four airlines at the commencement of the dispute - within a few years, only ONE "survives" - Ansett, and its survival has not been a healthy one, having been left severely, financially devastated by a stubborn management which refused negotiation. East-West and IPEC vanished, and to permit Australian Airlines (TAA) to be injected with (Government) cash, it was amalgamated with Qantas.

Because of the intransigence of the airlines' managements, the dispute was an extremely protracted one - even with Government intervention and assistance, and the use of wet-leased aircraft. Surprisingly, polls taken during the dispute indicated that a high percentage (in excess of 70%) of the general populace supported the PILOTS.

Ansett and Australian Airlines (now Qantas domestic), had to offer FAR in excess of the pilots' original ambit claim (of around 30%) to attract crews.

Australia 1989 represented a FAILURE rate of 75% for the airlines involved - failure meaning DEMISE, whereas the majority of pilots were quickly re-employed.

[Mapshift]

Look, black and white...from a retired ALPA dues-paying US airline major pilot who survived 3 furloughs and 2 strikes.....an expat contract pilot as are all CX pilots are free to hold out their services for what they feel to be an equitable and fair contract...the employer is also free to offer what they feel to be a fair and equitable employment agreement as they see fit based on current economic conditions....basically it SUCKS...all things accounted for..it is unreasonable to compare CX employment conditions with any major airline employment/collective bargaining agreements, as CX pilots are CONTRACTORS..expats...so like it or lump it these are the facts...I do not think it should be so, I feel that CX is making a huge mistake by picking a fight with employees..contract or otherwise, who have built the airline into what it is today...but the pilots are now are pissing into a fan so to speak...there must be a better way to fix this...and to all you ****** eighty-niners....you loosers with your chips on the shoulders...are ruining the whole industry with your persistant hard-headed approach to aviation...hope y'all get what you've got coming...and to the REAL CX pilots, hope y'all problems get solved for the mutual benefit of both groups...and to everybody who is applying for a job at CX amist the strife...get a life....

[Kaptin M]

The "proof of the pudding"....an example of the VERY subject on which Wiley has posted, has just arrived on the scene, in the form of Mapshift.
For those of you unaware of his (doubtful) "pedigree" a check through the Godzone and Dunnunda forum will let you see where his interests lie - apparently the Aussie dollar's depreciation since 1989 has him looking overseas to see which pilots he can shaft for a dollar.

The cannibals are sniffing around!! No feast here Mapshift, these boys are better organised than some posters are crediting them.

[Slasher]

From Mapshift on the "CX sacks 49" thread:

posted 11 July 2001 22:47

If the people they sacked are all "89ers...then good on them.who needs miserable rabble-rousers as pilots anyway...hope they are all blackballed by other carriers looking for pilots...most know them for what they are....

That puts paid to his credibility and inteligence level.

[ClearDirect]

Mapshift
I am not fully up to speed on precisely what it is the pilots have actually done so far.
I saw some references to "by the book operation", but has anything else actually taken place?
It must surely be more than a little coincidental that a diverse group of 50 or so pilots, who appear to have been perfectly satisfactory over the last few years, should suddenly and simultaneously become insufferable and intolerable to Cathay's management.
Methinks Madam Cathay doth protest a little too much.

Read/listen to ALPA's Marty Levitt on "confessions of a union buster", especially about taking hostages. http://airlinepilots.com/Interview/Martyinterview.htm

Predictable tactic.

[Slasher]

KM 70%? You sure? The average Hawke-worshipping I-believe-anything-I-read-in- (Murdochs)newspapers Oz yobbo in the street isnt that inteligent enough to separate fact from propaganda. I mean look at Mapshift here who I believe is representative of the colective Oz mentality.

[Kaptin M]

Yes, Slasher a phone-in poll on "A Current Affair", taken over a few days. Surprised me too, at the time.

Mapshift is one of the '89 cannibals, for those who haven't come across him, and a few others on the D&G forum. Obviously they can smell a desperate (CX)management, and are looking for a ticket out of Oz!

[Bob Hawke]

Hey Mapshift, the Airforce are looking for pilots, why don't you take your talents in that direct; your attitude would be better suited there, than gloating over a few carcusses at CX.

[Tom Tipper]

Wiley..what an excellent post. If only I could be that eloquent!

Mapshift...that was a hopeless post. You sure are one bitter little man. Just for your interest, your much loved '89'ers are in fact not the driving force behind what is going on in Hong Kong.

The movers and shakers are in many cases(& IMHO quite rightly) the guys who have been there for 10, 20 and more years. They are seeing this for what it is. Although nearing the ends of their careers due to age, in most cases have the best interests of their peers at heart.

[BAE146]

don't pay too much attention to Mapshift.he's harmless enough,when he left here 11 years ago to go "wandering" we ALL told him it would be a big mistake.
Don't like those '89's too much do we "mappy" - too close to home is it ..son?

[Bus429]

How much more could they possibly want? New Straits Times reports salaries of 800 K US. Is this true??????????? :(

[7x7]

I think more than a few respondents to this thread have missed or are keeping away from Wiley's original point. It bears repeating: he said in as many words that self-serving scum like those now circling the CX carcass looking for a quick wide body command or endorsement are what will bring us all down if they're not stopped. Unfortunately, many of those who did just that in Australia in 1989 may think it's time to abandon that corpse as it's been picked almost clean by now.

No one disputes that CX A scalers are on top dollar, but everyone who quotes the mega salaries the CX A scalers get should take a moment to look at living costs in Hong Kong. They're up there with Manhattan and close to Tokyo. They should also consider that with constantly changing rosters like those the CX guys are suffering under, no amount of money would make up for the the lifestyle it inflicts on a man with a family.

But of course, complex issues like that can't be squeezed into a 30 second sound bite and would ruin a good headline.

In closing, I have to agree that the CX pilots need to dig deep and pay for a top notch PR firm to handle their press relations.

[FatEric]

You guys were taking note of the views of those watching a current affair. No wonder you lost.

[Paladini]

Don't know what all the 'kerfuffle's" about. CX is well known for eating their young (and old as it appears). Can't believe that all 49 axed were of Antepodean descent('89s), though. From my experience, most of the Ozzies I've flown with/for have been quite, or at least, fairly, competant, notwithstanding the few who obviously got their credentials from inside a Vegemite jar cap.

So leave the "Bruces" alone. It's not their fault. The 'A' scalers have been dinosaurs for a VERY long time, whether or not they came from under the Southern Cross.

[raitfaiter]

I would have thought that anyone thinking of taking up any CX job offers in Europe while there are still union officers and their members sacked by CX should be VERY VERY VERY sure of their status with both immigration and the UK tax authorities....if you know what I mean :mad:

[Poke Guy]

Paladini: Almost half of the 52 are Canadians.

[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: Poke Guy ]

[Paladini]

Sorry to hear that, Poke Guy. Didn't know they grew peanuts in Canada.

What's the HK Aircrew Assn doing about all this? Can't believe they're not hitting the courts in the UK. CX hasn't had a great record here :cool:

[411A]

The HKAOA has positivly no teeth and the company management knows it.
Think they had better settle PDQ.

[neutral]

This is directed primarly at 411A and the rest of the doomsayers. I can not believe that there are people out there who can not seem to understand that every time a workers' group is defeated, it erodes the quality of life for workers everywhere in the world. For those of us who are fortunate enough to live in places that have laws to protect workers, we cherish those rights. If everyone strove for better working conditions everywhere, can't you understand that everyone benefits. It is a proven fact that productivity increases when cooperation increases. No one likes living in a militant state for long. For the rest of you who have worse conditions, stop comparing and strive for excellence for those who are fighting for themselves and ultimately.....for you, too. Isn't that why unions were initially formed anyway? Because there were whose who believed that profits could not be maximized unless there was child labor and 14 hour work days. There were union busters and doomsayers all over Europe and North America. The unions have prevailed and workers conditions have improved. Is there anyone today who thinks child labor is right? Lets at least support those who are willing to fight for what they believe.

[411A]

Unfortunately, the labor laws in HKG are not as "labor friendly" as some would like.
Sounds like a managements' dream to me.

[Buster Hyman]

Sorry Kaptin, but when you said 70% favoured the Pilots I was astonished. When you said it was from a Current Affair, I laughed so hard I kicked the cable out of the computer!! :D

I know we've had disagreements KM, but I genuinely hope this turns out for the best! :(