Does anyone else feel the same?

[SpannerSpinner]

Words cannot describe how hacked off I am with all this news about cuts and reallocation of funds (aka more cuts and short sighted decision making). I worked bloody hard to get into the Military to do a job I dreamt of doing since childhood. Yet these days I feel completely and utterly let down by these so-called decisions. The guys and girls I work with are second to none and I believe that a vast proportion of the public are behind us and support us. The way we're going I feel as though we're being cheated....utterly utterly cheated.

I am not going to blab to a tabloid, nor am I going to pour my heart and soul out on TV but just how can we, as the military, air our voices and concerns properly.

Does Joe Public realise that without a true MPA capability it might just be them that needs long range SAR cover. What happens when another country starts to rattle its sabre with subs or surface units. Have we forgotten that we are an Island nation and that keeping our coastlines safe and secure is paramount? I'm sure that the image of HM forces is one of...they'll always come up with the goods, but I am very fearful that if we carry on we will end up with an even bloodier nose and worst of all let our public down

As for Harrier and Tornado...well I really don't need to go there. It's ludicrous. Why oh why do we, as Great Britain plc see the necessity to offer billions of pounds in foreign aid when it's our own country that needs this money.

Why do our top brass not fight, and I mean bloody well fight for our causes. I am sure that if the general public were made aware of this there would be uproar. Or am I missing something here? Standing by for comments....rant off

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

Why do our top brass not fight, and I mean bloody well fight for our causes. I am sure that if the general public were made aware of this there would be uproar. Or am I missing something here? Standing by for comments....rant off

You are missing the point. Who do you think made these cuts?


Ainsworth? Nah...He's not clever enough and besides, he doesn't know where Cottesmore is

Drayson.... Nah, too busy flying across the Atlantic

Rammel..... oh no.... (Can he write?)

No, the people who made these cuts were Chris Moran and his mate McNicholl.... Those are the top Brass and they are the ones who offered up these cuts.

[Cows getting bigger]

I think you have to look across UK PLC. Whilst it may not directly affect you, I suspect that there are police officers, doctors, firefighters etc all saying exactly the same thing. The country is in deep financial poo and the sad thing is that cuts have to be made. The problem with the military is that it has inertia (especially in equipment programmes) so any quick change that is required has to be dirty and often illogical.

If I were to vent my spleen at anyone, it would be our PM who devolved regulation of the finance industry, encouraged extreme capitalism (rather bizarre for a socialist), raided the piggy bank and, generally, was frivolous with our wealth.

[Pontius Navigator]

Actually the knife man wore green.

It was said by Dannatt almost a year ago, not in public at the time, that all training would be focussed on Afg and all traditionally generic training would cease. He said something else too which may have entered the public domain but I am not sure.

Essentially, after twice the length of the 1st WW and longer than the 2nd WW, we are facing up to the reality that we are engaged in a major military endeavour.

While Torpy was heavily criticised for being Typhoon centric when many said we needed more SH, so it has come to pass. Only the Typhoon seems to be aimed at the future; the rest seem up for the chop.

What chance Illustrious next?

[smugley]

Spanner,

Nice rant mate.

No you are not alone, many people feel the same, but for all that we are, we are not politicians, we can't change policy. Our job is to do what we are told, when we are told and to do it to the best of our ability.

If we don't like it, then we have the choice to go, not an easy one (at all) but it is our choice. I agree with you wholeheartedly but there is a limit as to what we can do, change govts? Fair enough, can do, but what guarantee have we got that the next lot won't stiff us equally as much?

I think, mate, that it's heads down and work through it. All the ranting in the world ain't gonna change the price of fish for us. Nice to let off a bit of steam though!:ok:

[Dan Gerous]

I was wondering today just how much longer are we going to have an airforce. We seem to be concentrating entirely on Afghanistan now, and everything else is non essential or no longer required. These wakners must think that skills can be stored away with the kit, and wheeled out again when needed. God help us if we ever have to fight in an all out war in the future.

[SASless]

Is the UK, even with current assets, capable of going it alone in the defense of the country from an aggessive sea and air blockade? I find it hard to imagine any set of circumstances where the UK would be left to its own devices in any sort of confrontation. Thus, at what point does the UK begin to need only a token military capability focussed solely upon homeland defense alone?

Does the UK have the same/comparable capability it did during the Falklands War?

[Orange Poodle]

Is the UK, even with current assets, capable of going it alone in the defense of the country from an aggessive sea and air blockade? I find it hard to imagine any set of circumstances where the UK would be left to its own devices in any sort of confrontation. Thus, at what point does the UK begin to need only a token military capability focussed solely upon homeland defense alone?



...but who apart from the USA are capable of offering any useful capability in any potential war against an enemy with a credible air/sea/sub-surface capability?? Belgium?

OP

[MaroonMan4]

Agreed with all of the above, and even though we have eventual action on the CH47 requirement nearly 10 years late, I forsee that even this investment will have every attempt to bring it into service on the cheap - I do not envy those that will be responsible for overseeing this lot!

Also agreed we will just have to put our heads down and get on with it- for now. But loyalty goes both ways, and however much we maybe required to reduce recruiting or retention now, we all know that when the economy picks up (and the airline industry is cyclical-as is any industry) then I will wager that those 'sticking with it' due to no employment outside in 2009/2010, will soon depart.

And these will not be the newbies or easily filled jobs within the forces, but the very experienced, with key skill sets that will remember this Govt and what it has done to Her Majesty's Armed Forces and be the first to leave.

I remember seeing a thread on PPrune a number of years ago to do with being broke (before the recession):

'If I was broke, I would not go out and I would only spend essential money'

So if we are that broke, lets not go out (i.e. SDR = only UK Homeland Security and British territories - no Gulf War 1, Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 2, Iraq, Afghanistan and (only if the need ever arises) only the Falklands, Gibraltar and other places where the Union Flag flys) and lets not spend (rather than providing HM Govt aid to foreign nations/ foreign projects, save our resources for UK departments-Health, Education, Police, Security Services etc).

Where I dont agree is where the current Govt wants its cake and enjoys eating it and is trying to schmulz on the world stage whilst pretending that it can afford the 'punch above its weight' which ultimatey screws everyone over - public, servicemen/women and all of the other H M Govt departments.

If SDR recognises this and H M Govt re-aligns its global expectations then we too have to realign our expectations to a British Defence Force that only protects UK waters and mainland, with very limited overseas intervention in UK only 'conflicts' (more like disaster relief or NEO).

We as a nation used to be able to punch above our weight - sadly the punch is more like a tickle and the weight is not of a boxer, but too many obese and fat (physically, metaphorically and morally).

We are servants of the Crown - and if the Crown does not want (or cannot afford) an expeditionary warfighting Armed Forces then lets write our doctrine, equip and train our forces for our new role - defending British shores and not fighting under resourced in far off lands, paying for it by selling off the family silver that just maybe required for tomorrows war of national survival..

[cornish-stormrider]

Well said all. its just a crying shame that joe p is more interested in strictly x factor jungle madonna jordan and what they are doing this weekend and whether they have caught some STD or been in a drunken brawl than the importance of this nation.


We (as a society) are about to reap the whirlwind. Put your money in canned food and shotguns.

[skippedonce]

Some well expressed and heart-felt sentiments in the previous posts, and we can always banter about getting F'ed about by professions and the consequences of inability to take a joke, et al.

The bottom line is that, if UK plc wants to maintain the professed position of a first-rank World power, with a permanent seat on the UNSC and in the G7/8, the government, no matter which side of the expense-rorting fence it comes from, must resource its policies, and if one of those policies is to use its military on protracted campaigns to retain the image of Empire, the budget must fit the ambition. Unfortunately, a previous 'glorious leader's' legacy of ensuring his place in history has, along with criminal mismanagement by Service and civvie 'leaders' within the MOD, left those of is still mannig the trenches in the deepest, darkest, smelliest guano seen since about 1936.:ugh:

S.O.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Forget leading the world, seat on the UNSC etc.

Simple facts: the military do not win votes, nor are there enough personnel to sway the vote, unless y'all register for a postal vote in DC's Witney constituency!

The Social Security budget is close on 50% of GDP: that is the "benefit" of a socialist Govt. I can look forward next year to my tax bill exceeding £70K, direct and indirect, and because I can't get NHS dentistry I'm going to Romania to have my teeth done.

You also have to examine how the military promotion system works: does it encourage liberal and radical thought?

You get the leaders you deserve: both political and military.

On another tack, Mr B Liar's latest revelations about the Iraq invasion do beg the question: how many of you actually doubted his reasoning and questioned it?

[skippedonce]

Slim,

Great if we could, but it's the aspiration to have the ability to stop traffic in Beijing by their presence and noteriety on the world stage that seems to motivate our politicians, rather than to defend the sovereignty of their constituents from the vile foreign hordes.

S.O.

[Uncle Ginsters]

What strikes me about this whole bloody mess is that it's the government - the politicians - that sent us into these conflicts, and then when they realise how expensive continuous expeditionary warfare is who is it that takes the cuts? Other industries? Other public sector elements?
No.
Not a chance.
It's the men and women who offer their lives, sometimes all too painfully literally, who take round after round of belt-tightening cuts and cheap penny-pinching stabs whilst we watch literally billions of pounds be pissed away by ill-conceived contracts or projects that are rarely what's needed. You can't run a wartime military on a peacetime budget.

Microscopic cuts will never make up for the macroscopic wastage!

They will only serve to reduce morale and force people into other walks of life. And those people are the most loyal servants that this country could want.
The government should realise the problems that it's storing up for itself and thank their lucky stars that for now Willie Walsh has a little more on his plate than to worry about recruiting....for now!

:sad:

[The B Word]

We are servants of the Crown - and if the Crown does not want (or cannot afford) an expeditionary warfighting Armed Forces then lets write our doctrine, equip and train our forces for our new role - defending British shores and not fighting under resourced in far off lands, paying for it by selling off the family silver that just maybe required for tomorrows war of national survival..

Oh, goody, I've always wanted to get a hat with a big "W" on it (suits the name that most people call me!). That's what this Country needs...a defence force made up of Mr Hodges! :ok:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/dadsarmy/img/gallery/01/BAP_BBC_5207.jpg

[Melchett01]

Spanner -

I have long had the view that this government is a strategic liability, a view that has often been met with derision and suggestions of hyperbole and scaremongering.

But I truly believe that the past few years have shown this government to be what they really are: strategically ambivolent, unable to see nothing beyond the bottom line on a balance sheet and an a burning desire to drag the country down to its lowest common denominator.

Most of the UK's strategic national infrastructure is either falling apart or in foreign hands; just look at who owns most of the banks, utility companies, power generation and supply companies, airports, manufacturing etc etc. All in the name of financial responsibility, making the UK an attractive place to do business and of course EU regulations. Despite blaming the banks for the current mess, this government spent years cosing up to them, encouraging risk taking and financial wizardry, all designed to boost profits and hence tax revenues. They came to power in 1997 on the mantra of education education education; so rather than bringing poor quality schools up to the standards of selective or private schools with their track record of A-grades and admission to quality universities to do real degrees, these schools were pilloried and accused of being the product of a thankfully dying era.

None of their actions have been based on sound strategic direction or intent; when it all starts to unravell, they are quick to shift the blame to anyone they think can carry the can for their foolhardiness.

This foolhardiness and strategic ambivolence is now clear for all to see in terms of the defence of this country. Having spent years salami slicing capability, they have now resorted to chopping entire capabilities. The only reason we need to carry out this emergency force re-balancing is because they have decimated defence through years of under investment, maladministration and a general irrational hatred for the military. Many on here and throughout the country have compared us unfavourably with the US, only to be told that the US has more money etc and can afford to maintain a robust defence capability. This is little more than smoke and mirrors to hide their mistakes; I cannot think of any credible government, regardless of the size of its economy, that would voluntarily either sell off its strategic national infrastructure and run its military into the ground at the same time as thrashing them to pieces.

This strategic idiocy must stop before the country is in no fit state to defend its interests - political, economic or social - either home or abroad. Unfortunately, Guy Fawkes played his hand about 400 years too early. And as Her Majesty (who I can only imagine retires each evening wondering what the hell Brown et al are doing) is above politics and cannot do what we all wish she would do, the only option is to kick these idiots out at the next election. Hopefully they have done enough to make themselves unelectable for at least a generation, which will allow the Armed Forces as a whole time to recover and regenerate its lost capability.

[pr00ne]

The real Slim Shady,

Where on earth do you get such nonsense from? The Social Security Budget is 50% of GDP?

What?

The UK Social Security budget is £160billion. UK GDP is over £1.7 TRILLION!!!

50%?

The UK Govt annual budget is some £600billion.


Melchett01,

Don't forget that Guy Fawkes tried to kill the Government AND the Monarch!

If you really think that the armed forces are going to have the funding and investment to recover and rebuild under a Tory Government then you are going to be terribly sadly disillusioned with a Cameron Gov't!

[minigundiplomat]

The UK Govt annual budget is some £600million


With defence spending alone roughly £37 Billion, I dont think thats right either!

[hval]

I do apologise in advance, but I thought that Cameron was Tony Blair.

After all, both lie (through spin, misdirection and any other Machiavellian schemes possible). They sound the same. Neither have political convictions beyond the belief that they have the divine right to rule, and to further their wealth how ever possible.

Sorry. Hate politicians. Have been discussing politics with too many africans who are open mouthed in admiration for the corrupt politics in our country and how our political masters have got away with it for so long without a coup.

[pr00ne]

minigun thing.....

Correct, that should read £600 BILLION!

[minigundiplomat]

prOOne thingy whastit,

thought so, though I think I know where the other 50% figures may have come from.

A few weeks ago, the broadsheets were running with a headline that social security payments now exceed tax revenue. I think it is a contortion of that headline.

[polyglory]

The only consistent thing in all this, is that all the Pollies of all the main parties are as bad as each other on Defence.

This current lot are the worst I have ever seen for a while, it will not improve in the foreseeable future either.

[bcgallacher]

With reference to the American defence budget - check the numbers,greater then the total budget for many countries and completely unsustainable long term - the crash when it comes will dwarf what we have seen in the last 2 years.High -tech military equipment is just not affordable to most countries anymore.

[vecvechookattack]

The only consistent thing in all this, is that all the Pollies of all the main parties are as bad as each other on Defence.

This current lot are the worst I have ever seen for a while, it will not improve in the foreseeable future either.

And that's why they are advised by senior Servicemen. Thats why the MOD is full of serving officers...all providing advice to the civil servants and politicians....and that's why when the politicians and Civil Servants said that they needed to save money, all of the senior Servicemen agreed that the best thing to do would be to close Cottesmore, Get rid of the MR2 and give the Merlins to the Navy. It was their decision, not the Politicians or the Civil servants.

[Jabba_TG12]

Proone:

The figure quoted contained only one inaccuracy - what it should have said is that "Health and Social Security take up 50% of the budget spend".

VecVec sadly has it right. Regardless of what we all think of the political classes, it is Joe P who votes for them, but in terms of what is cut where and when, the sacrificial lambs are offered up by the star ranks.

Our own leaders, our own senior commanders have sold us out. I've long held the opinion that most of them are a bunch of gin soaked, pension chasing, salute collecting, doddering f*rts incapable of running a flight of stairs and regrettably I'm not seeing anything that will change that for the most part.

It seems like in order to get that thick stripe on your arm, the first thing you have to do is rip out your spine and replace it with jelly. Secondly, put any ethical thoughts well to one side and trade in your leadership qualities for those of a whelk.

Unfortunately, as a mere simple former scopie, I can't see a way out of it, in my lifetime, that does not involve having either or both a PM or Defence Secretary with a pair of big cojones and a vision to embark on complete top to bottom reform of the ministry from top to bottom, in other words, a true inspirational leader.

I'm not sure there has ever been such a person in peacetime and I doubt there ever will be.

As far as the original poster is concerned, all you can do, depending on when you do it, is vote with your feet and take the lessons in life and the experience with you out of the front gates of the unit knowing that deep down you are no longer willing to be a party to this dereliction by higher authorities and then have the very cold comfort of saying I told you so, when what you predicted eventually comes to pass... thats what I did, in a round-about way and I've no personal, professional or financial regrets. I feel disappointed for those who came after and those that took the place of myself and my former colleagues and what they are being expected to do. Such smugness, although temporarily satisfying is not always an endearing quality and is often hollow.

Or stay in, ride it out, and do your bit changing it from the inside when you reach the dizzy heights yourself.

And it might be worth comforting yourself with one thing. If you think its bad now... you wait until todays' playstation generation get to these levels of decision making...:sad:

[Wrathmonk]

all of the senior Servicemen agreed

And here in lies the rub. The current 'masters' should not take all the blame though. The budget problems have been building up for years with numerous 'senior officers' taking the "it won't happen on my watch" line and defering and delaying rather than biting the bullet and taking decisive, but painful, action. The current Chiefs had no choices left :{

For how many years now have we roled over the in year budget defecit into the following year .....?

[SpannerSpinner]

Some really interseting points here fellas. What I still fail to get my little head around is why now, months before a SDR. Why not wait until the SDR ,which lets face it, will happen straight after the General Election (which at the lastest would be in June) when we can make some thought out strategic decisions. To me this typifies this governments methodology. Sure, I'm not naive enough to think that the other lot will be the saviours of HM Forces but come on, this smacks of utter utter short-sighted desparation to me.

[vecvechookattack]

Mere semantics but Its an FDR... There isn't any strategy involved in the Future Defence Review.

[SpannerSpinner]

I can do that now. Here is my future defence review:

Mr Brown, Mr Ainsworth and of course their successors:

If you carry on like this we won't have any. END

[SCAFITE]

Thick end of 100,000 when I joind in 1976 to about 45,000 when I left in 2002 now 41,000 and soon to be 30,000 or so. 30,000 is not a lot of folks and if like eggs is eggs the economy does come back stronger it wont be the MoD who finish the RAF it will be the current personnel. I am sure most of the RAF and Navy Boys and Girls are well motivated and well capable of finding a good job out in the big bad world. So use your brain cells and start thinking about getting out now, even if its just a feeler for whats out there. Anybody who throws their towel in with the MoD today and think they will look after you must need their heads testing.

Good luck to you all

[Gainesy]

No Spinner, I left the RAF in 1976 and my feelings at these latest cuts pretty much mirror yours.

I wonder if there is some ex-KGB General sitting in his retirement dacha thinking: "Damn, Plan Purple worked in the end, who'd have thought it eh?
Few years later than we planned but, what the hell."

[Jackonicko]

We could have saved FAR more by scrapping the carriers and JSF. Probably by scrapping one carrier.

We could have saved more by biting the bullet and getting rid of Harrier (and its entire support/logs chain) in toto, though I'm not necessarily advocating that.

Instead we're finally down to defence policy making according to the Sun and Daily Mail.

They're witless readers have heard of Chinooks, watched Ross Kemp and know they're good, so we're getting an inappropriately large number of those.

They're dimly aware that Nimrods are dangerous, so getting rid of them is good.

Getting rid of one squadron of Harriers (one third of the force) is just a small adjustment, ditto the squadron of Tornados.

And how many Sun readers are ever going to ask about SAR cover, de-lousing SSBNs, and the like?

And it's the likely reaction of the selfish, uninformed and ignorant to tax rises, or to painful cuts like the Red Arrows, BoBMF, Ceremonial troops and London barracks, carriers and HMS Victory that rule out those options.

And lest anyone think that the Tories are the answer to anyone's prayers, forget it. They're every bit as populist, spin-ridden and cynical as this lot, and while they'll criticise these cuts, they'll do nothing to reverse them, and if they get into power they'll use their 'strong on defence' reputation to deliver up more cuts, hoping that no-one will notice.

F*ckers, the lot of them.

[Jabba_TG12]

Well Spinner, I think you've got your answer... :\

[Valiantone]

I agree with Jackonicko about whatever shower gets in next...



V1

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

You chaps who have pointed out that it’s senior Service wallahs that pick the cuts are, of course, right. More precisely, they put forward prioritised “savings” proposals that are supported by “pain and grief” statements. Those “pain and grief” Impact Statements can never be strong or severe enough to deter Ministers from actually taking the savings. The head sheds are in an invidious position; rather like having their breeding gear trapped in a vice and being given a saw for when the workshop is set alight.

Another great Government ploy is to get the Services to squabble amongst themselves. The former CGS is more than qualified to explain that to us. I’m very pleased that the words spoken yesterday by 1SL in Iraq make an important Strategic point without resorting to low cunning. We, on this Site (including me, regrettably) are often guilty of that. Even more regrettably is that outside observers perceive it as that, even when it’s standard banter.

The short line is that the vote gluttons in Westminster took an ill conceived “peace dividend” and nothing on this Earth will make them give any of it back. I lie; there is one thing that could and it’s the voting British Public. They won’t, though, for all the reasons many of you have already said. They support “our boys”, so long as it doesn’t mean digging deeper in their pockets or giving up some “social” benefit.

I do find it interesting that certain Naval mechanical palm tree types find the loss of a functioning MPA so trivial.

[TheSmiter]

Total agreement with Jacko. Have you been on the sherry mate? It's not like you to use profanity or let your grammar slip. My other half is one of those witless readers - I've tried to make her see sense, but you know what they're like :rolleyes:

Spinner, ....... yes, me too.

Gainsey, I wonder if there is some ex-KGB General sitting in his retirement dacha thinking: "Damn, Plan Purple worked in the end, who'd have thought it eh?
Few years later than we planned but, what the hell."

Hahahahaha, was thinking much the same thing, wearing my cold war dinosaur outfit!

[Jig Peter]

Having nearly "done" my 16 in 1968, I looked back, not just at the great people I was privileged to serve with and the places where we served, but also at what various Guvvamints had done to the RAF during that time, had a bit of a wonder whether there was likely to be a change and naturally opted for "out".
It wasn't always easy, and certainly no "escalator to fortune", but other "talents" than aeroplane driving came in handy and I've absolutely no regrets. What those still serving are going through now shows that my one-time plotting ahead curve was very optimistic, and makes me very, very sad.

[Wayitup]

Like some others posting here I did my 'bit'....'69-96' though I would have liked to stay on through to 2008 (age 55). When the 'peace dividend' (ha-ha what a joke) reviews/redundancy bit ..for the second time....it was obvious even then in '96 that things would only get worse.

I had the same experiences as most over those years....enjoyable times outweighing the unpleasant ones many fold but the writing was on the wall and like many I decided to accept redundancy. I can honestly say I am glad I did. Things have gone from bad to worse relative to the cuts and overstretch.....it's not nice being proved right.:mad:

The men and women who make up our armed forces are and always will be the people who 'get the job done' more often in spite of the 'upper echelons' than because of them.....so chin up guys and girls.....Still proud of you but of 'our Lords and Masters'.....forum language rules stop me from commenting...:mad::mad::mad:

[Gainesy]

Lords and Masters? Hmm, they just joined before you and every entry has its quota of tic-tocs, arse lickers and wankers. Some leave...
:suspect:

[Jabba_TG12]

Pete:

Yep, I fully empathise; funnily enough, I left at the same point, 16 years partly down to dead mans shoes promotion. I made great friends for life who would walk through fire for each other if we asked each other to, I experienced some great places and learned almost everything I know about life and people and growing up.

It didnt take a huge amount of time though, once the 12 year point had gone past when I started to question how things were going, around the time of Options and saw at first hand the empire consolidation that was happening around Strike at the time and the pervading them and us atmosphere at Wycombe, which poisoned a lot of it for me from that point. I then decided I would sort out my education and training and in return for giving the RAF the best working years of my life that I would seek to get as much out of the system as I could.

Thing is now, those that followed in my footsteps have not had the chance of the experiences that I had, had the chance to learn from the people who I did, who I really looked up to, service discipline isnt the same and whilst some things at a personnel level appear to be getting slightly better - Project SLAM, Pay As You Starve, the lack of which were real bugbears during my time - other things, like trade experience, choice of postings, JPA, civilianisation of trades, all of these things, IMHO have dimmed the prospects compared to what I had. I had very grave doubts about the likes of Jock Stirrup, the late John Thompson, Bill Wratten and others, who were climbing their way through the star ranks when I was at Strike and although some have paid a blood price for their decisions, I do feel slightly vindicated in a hollow kind of way that maybe, just maybe all those years ago, I wasnt just another whinging airman, I was right to doubt their ability to lead.

It does make me sad for those that follow and from my time working as a contractor at Northwood, I was in regular contact with guys being sent out on a regular basis at very short notice to Iraq and the Stan, being put in harms way in ways I never knew, not even during GW1. Their attitudes though, their same esprit de corps and dedication to what they were doing was encouraging, that this one bond that ties us all is still alive and kicking. For the last 5-6 years I've been contracting its either been for DE&S or their like or similar so I've been in regular close contact with the serving operational community and have a good handle on what is being expected of them. There were times during the 80's that I remember when a lot of people in my trade were looking to get out and change their lives and some did and there were times when morale took a bit of a battering, but never anything like this, under Thatch or Major. I'm not saying the tories were perfect and didnt do anything that was bad or short sighted, but nothing like the current lot. These really are very dark days and I find it staggering that those who we were meant to look upto as scrambled egg wearing gods, once a year, for whom we'd paint the grass green if they wanted us to have allowed things to come to this with hardly a whimper.

So far as I am aware, those who have resigned their commissions because of the state of things are no higher than Gp Capt equivalent and most of them have been either dark blue or green. I realise that military strategy is largely an extension of foreign policy and that we go where we're told and dont question it, but I dont think in any way that it is unreasonable for senior commanders, who are meant to advise government, to say hang on a minute... this is what you're expecting us to do; with what we have got, this is not possible or this is not acceptable, or we need x or y and to be vocal about it and say I am not going to put the lives of my men and women on the line so cheaply. For all his faults, Dannatt spiked his own career by speaking out and his men respected him for it.

Reading Stuart Tootal's book was an eye opener. I thought here is an officer who not only leads, but inspires, is deeply respected by his troops and who knows the true value of the lives he is in charge of and feels every loss as if it is personal and doesnt put them in harms way lightly. Those are the types of leaders we need and they're not sticking around, they're leaving. I cant remember the last time we had someone like that in light blue. And, for our dark blue cousins, I think it was probably some time ago for them too...

[Wayitup]

Gainsey.......

'and some don't...... staying on to be promoted beyond their ability ....ergo 'screw ups' in charge'..:ugh: