What is a flying club?

[SkyCamMK]

Is a Registered Facility a Flying Club or is it a Flight Training School and is there a difference. I know one could be registered for ground examinations only but when flight training is offerd say to NPPL and/or PPL(A) what is the difference? Does it matter if it is operated by amateurs or by a limited company? Is there some implication of a not for profit organisation when the "Club" is involved ensuring any profits are for the members?

For example, Does a club need a constitution, rules other than Flying Order Book and are elected officials necessary or simply desirable?

Does it depend on who owns the aircraft and who does the training?

I ask for help in understanding this question because 2 other recent threads have called into question what I thought was within my general knowledge and understanding. I welcome all opinions but would hope for some citations for reference purposes if such things exist. I know the CAA operate a very light touch and keeps a "safe" distance from basic training matters compared to the inspections of a Flight Training Organisation for commercial ratings etc.

edited for typo/clarity 1535h

[BHenderson]

As I understand; 'Flying Club' used to suggest that it was committee run, with all the politics that went with it. They could be Registered Facilities or Flight Training Organisations. Many clubs have gone broke over the past few years and have been superceded by a limited company with a similar name. Indeed many 'clubs' are simply a business with an active social side.

[Whopity]

There is no Legal Definition of a Flying Club, if there was it would be in the ANO Art 155 Definitions.

In the absence of such a definition, it can be whatever you want it to be. Two persons with a common interest. No rules, no constitution, no fees, no committee, no paperwork!

Schedule 8 refers to Flying Clubs but without any definition the references are largely unenforceable.

[SkyCamMK]

Thanks Whopity for your various inputs, I am beginning to think it is probably a moot point.

Reminds me of once when I had occasion to attend a meeting at the Home Office and when asking about the whereabouts of the meeting room I was directed through various corridors that are colour coded and was amused to pass through the Grey Area on my way.

When it comes to private flight arrangements perhaps grey is the best colour after all!

[Lister Noble]

join the local strut,our one is excellent.:ok:

[mlee]

Hi, would I need to be approved by the CAA in order to teach the PPL/NPPL?
I ask because I have a building and aircraft (which meets all the criteria for public transport) at a licensed airfield.
Regards.

[L'aviateur]

mlee, would recommend speaking to the CAA direct on those matters to get the correct answers.

[Checkboard]

If by "Flying Club" you mean a business designed to make money from rental and training - it's a standard business model.

If by "Flying Club" you mean a group of people getting together to share their enjoyment of aviation, and a structure that permits rental of aircraft and the like for that - you can start here:

Set up a social enterprise | Business Link (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1077475650&r.s=e&r.l1=1073858808&r.lc=en&r.l3=1073865730&r.l2=1073859215&r.i=1073789616&r.t=RESOURCES)

[Whopity]

Hi, would I need to be approved by the CAA in order to teach the PPL/NPPL?No! If you wish to teach for a JAA PPL you must be Registered (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Standards%20Document%2011V08%202009.pdf) not approved.
For the NPPL there is no such requirement.

[S-Works]

whoppity, can a free lance, unrestricted Instructor teach for the NPPL without being a registered facility? What about needing a licensed airfield?

[ifitaintboeing]

NPPL Requirements

The course shall be undertaken at a UK flying club/school or flying training organisation and the required theoretical knowledge and flying training for the course

from:

http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/New/NPPLSSEAversion2.pdf

I believe this should read "The course shall be undertaken at a Registered Facility or Flying Training Organisation." as this was the intent.

Currently a licensed airfield is required for ab-initio training.....watch this space though.

ifitaint...

[BillieBob]

Doesn't matter what it should read. There is currently no requirement for the NPPL to be conducted in an RTF and, since there is no legal definition of a flying club, the whole thing is up for grabs. Also, I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting for training to allowed from unlicensed sites.

[Whopity]

Registration is a JAA requirement and therefore does not apply in any way to a non JAA licence e.g. an NPPL.

There is no requirement in the ANO so it is not law. As Billiebob says a Flying Club is whatever you want it to be; two persons with a common interest will do nicely.

The ANO Art 126 does require a licensed aerodrome for instruction for the issue of a licence however; there are Exemptions to allow license training on Microlights (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_748.pdf) and SLMGs (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_779.pdf) from unlicensed aerodromes.

A FI can teach for an NPPL at a licensed aerodrome; subject to the privileges of his/her licence and rating, and at unlicensed aerodromes in accordance with the above Exemptions.

[SkyCamMK]

Alister, I think that the RF was introduced to prevent persons from training out of a car boot or garden shed type facility. I did my Group D microlight out of one such facility a car boot with a rented house for exams. Ground school was all self study but this was in 1983.

Microlights are a different class to light aircraft and are less regulated. Choose your provider based on knowledge of the industry gained from a wide cross section of people i.e. instructors, students, CFI etc.

This thread has moved away from my intended direction and I think it might be best to close it now.

In short, if you need facts to make a costly decision do not rely on a rumour site even though many facts are shared and much good info is received.

Happy landings, and many of them!

[Whopity]

So does this mean an unrestricted instructor may hire out an aircraft from, let's say, a private owner as opposed to a business and then teach someone NPPL? No office for ground training, literally just an aircraft?Legally yes, there is nothing to prohibit you operating from the boot of a car however, the aerodrome operator may have something to say about it. It doesn't matter who owns the aircraft so long as it is maintained to public transport standards if the student pays to use it.

The instructor does not have to be insured, but the aircraft does.
If the instructor isn't operating a RF does this mean they would need an air operators certificate?No, because you cannot give instruction under an AOC; its for commercial air transport. The instructor and student have to both be members of a club for which there is no legal definition.
Would any of the hours conducted under the NPPL perhaps count towards a full JAR licence under these circumstances?A maximum of 10 hours. All JAA training must be conducted at a Registered Facility or FTO.
Can any JAA FI/JAA FE teach/examine an NPPL? Legally Yes. However a JAA examiner would have to be Authorised by the UK CAA, not just any JAA Examiner.

[S-Works]

No. The NPPL is a sub ICAO licence. You need to go via an ICAO PPL or via the integrated route.