Muscat - Need clarification

[sharpshooter41]

Coming into Dubai from the East the usual descend clearance is something like "Descend to FL 200, cross Pasov FL 270 or below". Subsequently, sometime when the traffic is light and still above FL270 and short of Pasov the next clearance is " Present position direct Bubin and descend to FL150.

The question is after the second clearance and now oncourse to Bubin, do I still have to ensure that we cross abeam Pasov FL 270 and below OR after the second clearance this restriction is no longer applicable.

I personally think the second clearance overrides the first one but would like the experts to comment.

Thanks

[ATCO1962]

Even if it's not clear, you should cross abeam PASOV/TAPRA FL270 or below, because that is the level at which you will be separated from the North (i.e.upper airspace) UAE controller's airspace. My usual clearance, if UAE give the direct BUBIN approval, is still to clarify that you need to cross abeam one of the two points below FL270, but a lot of my colleagues don't do that.

The old caveat applies; if unsure, ask the controller.

[zkjaws]

In a normal environment I would say you are quite entitled to believe the FL270 restriction no longer applies when given the "reclearance" - especially if the reclearance is issued by a UAE controller. I would expect the fact that the FL270 restriction is not mentioned in the reclearance would mean the issuing controller has coordinated your flight to pass through the UAE North Controller's airspace.

ATCO1962 has pointed out what he does in this situation and has indicated some others don't follow the same procedure, but some others may well have carried out the necessary coordination. The problem you have is you don't know what has been carried out in the background.

What do you do in other parts of the world with similar restrictions and clearances? You can't be expected to know the ATC (inter-unit) restrictions applicable to standard descent/climb in every piece of airspace you operate in.

[Vector361]

In the US all altitude restrictions are removed. Pilot routes direct to the new fix and descents unrestricted to 15,000.

[sharpshooter41]

Thank you for the replies. So it still stays a grey area.

Just to add when we select direct to BUBIN, waypoint PASOV disappears from our displays in the cockpit and it would require a bit of effort to ensure that we cross abeam PASOV at or below FL270.

Certainly not impossible but hey, descending into Dubai one certainly doesn't want to increase the workload.

[divingduck]

I understand where ATCO1962 is coming from, the restriction is to separate you from the guy climbing out between PASOV and TAPRA and he has to be F280 or above, you are F270 or below....HOWEVER the restriction is canceled upon receipt of a further clearance from the next controller if it is not reiterated.

[Radar Pete]

Hi Sharpshooter

The area should not be grey for you, just comply with last ATC instruction issued.

If ATC fails to include the requirements of a restriction then the ATC must rectify the situation. In the given example you would not be required to pass abeam PASOV/TARDI below FL270. The ATC effectively re-routed you with NO restriction.

[Fox3snapshot]

Personally I would not expect the pilot to keep the restriction as the new routing is effectively a new clearance.

I do as ATCO1916 (woops sorry mate :p...1962!!!) does and stress that 'abeam' the position the restriction still applies.

Another good example in the UAE FIR is westbound with OBBI and OEDR landers which have been given direct NOBLA (having previously been given reach FL280 by BALUS) With the re-clearance I issue 'Recleared Direct NOBLA, reach FL280 by abeam BALUS'.

No confusion then in my mind...but I am quite simple as those who know me will vouch for!! :8

[ATCO1962]

Low blow, foxy. ATCO1916 is my great, great grandfather, as you well know!:}

Anyway, for my education, if Muscat is given DCT BUBIN, can we assume that everyone on the UAE side does all the necessary co-ord to ensure that inbounds don't have to cross the boundary FL270 or below, because many of our customers will surprise you if Dubai is using RWY12. It would be good to have something authoritative because sharpshooter's question is a good one and needs a definitive answer.

[sharpshooter41]

@Radar Pete
Exactly; This is what I also believe. If the next controller wants me to cross abeam a certain point (PASOV in this case) at or below a certain level, he will tell me. I also think that being given a direct to BUBIN is an indication that the traffic is light and the controller is therefore helping me get to my destination faster.

Why I put this question was because some people I fly with, make a big issue over it.

@Fox3snapshot
My thoughts exactly. If the controller wants me to do something he will tell me.
PS. your nick indicates a fighter.......

[Radar Pete]

I guess you can assume that the UAE ATCO makes the necessary co-ord, if not then it is the UAE ATCO who is answerable. Similarly, if I sit on the North sector and see traffic in the Alpha sector climbing above FL210 then I naturally assume the correct co-ord has taken place there between UAE and Muscat:suspect:?

[ATCO1962]

ANSA, you and I have been around the block enough times in these parts to know that ATC101 doesn't always apply here. I operate on the "cover-all-bases" system; time consuming, I know, but it keeps everyone safe. But, just for my info, do you train your guys to do that co-ord and do people generally follow that as a rule because, if so, I'll pass it on. Just be aware that some of the operators, like Shaheen, will come to you high.

Touche (Too-shay, not touchy, lest any offense is taken), Radar Pete. The answer, as you already know, is "no", the co-ord for your climbers isn't always done for Dubai and Abu Dhabi departures when aircraft want climb above the respective departure levels before the boundary. It would help enormously to have direct lines with each sector but I'll be pushing up daisies before that happens:hmm:

[Vercingetorix]

ANSA
Your comment is harsh, but to the point. You're definitely showing signs of being an übermeister these days (too much close contact with Stromboli, perhaps?) but ATCO 1962's procedure covers all bases and is a safe way to operate in the ME's difficult environment.

Remember: Feet - ground, & good luck with expanding your übermeister take on ICAO SMS.

To infinity and beyond and, hopefully, back in time for the Xmas festivities.:ok:

LoL.

[Radar Pete]

Are you guys forming a club?

[sharpshooter41]

Thanks for all the inputs.

I would however, request my Muscat and UAE friends to clearly spell out any restriction they want to be followed. Something on the lines of

" Clear direct to BUBIN and cross abeam PASOV FL270 or below"

Better to be safe.........

[divingduck]

" I would however, request my Muscat and UAE friends to clearly spell out any restriction they want to be followed. Something on the lines of Clear direct to BUBIN and cross abeam PASOV FL270 or below"


If they need it, they will....I thought they had already said that!