Garuda pilot's conviction overturned

[Offchocks]

You may remember the Garuda accident in March 2007, well I just saw this news release:

Garuda pilot's conviction overturned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/11/2769762.htm?section=justin)

I don't agree with the jail sentence, however the quashing of the conviction is ridiculous.

[beamender99]

(Your link gives revolving news )

Garuda pilot's conviction overturned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/11/2769762.htm)

[Offchocks]

Thanks beamender99 I've changed it.

[18-Wheeler]

Ridiculous.

[RoyHudd]

Corruption rules.

[preset]

Absolutely unbelievable. One has to ask the question, who then does the Indonesian legal system believe was at fault ? It sure as hell wasn't an act of God ! :ugh:

[Sqwak7700]

Unbelievable. I'm against jailing pilots when planes crash if they made a mistake. But this guy willingly violated SOP and several safety systems, operating in a reckless manner. He DESERVES jail time just as a bus driver deserves jail time if he drives at twice the speed limit and kills 25 of his passengers in the process.

[LongTimeInCX]

You would have to shake your head in amazement at the supposed impartiality of the Indonesion legal system, when it allows such incompetance free to fly again.

I'm not sure I'd even lend him my pedal cycle.

[ampclamp]

They'll execute or lock you up for decades for a minor (in the west) drug offences but when you actually kill people with culpable airmanship you can walk free.
I feel for those Indonesian and foreign travellers families whose loved ones perished. Very cruel decision.

[Old Fella]

No one should be surprised at this outcome. Corruption goes from the "bottom feeders" all the way to the top in Indonesia. Take a few grams of "grass" into Bali and get 20 years in prison. Kill 21 passengers because of a total lack of regard for SOP's and not only get your conviction overturned, but also have all charges dropped. And what do you think our fearless leaders will have to say? The silence will be deafening!!!

[FlexibleResponse]

The factual evidence of this tragic accident would appear to most intelligent human beings to point to the quintessential example of gross negligence.

But sometimes, reality in foreign countries is based upon completely different sets of criteria to what many of us believe to set the minimum standards of human behaviour and to what civilization is supposed to be all about...

There are many airlines in the world that an intelligent, or at least common sense equipped person, should not step foot upon...but then many take the risk on a price-weighted decision.

Very sad...

[oceancrosser]

Everything about Indonesia and aviation is a sick joke. One of my countrymen couldn't live with the regulated aviation environment in Europe so he went to Indonesia. 15 years later he is still there running a questionable operation... :ugh:

[thrustpig]

Advances in aviation systemtic safety, CRM, TEM and automation etc have all contributed to making air travel very safe. Why is it then with all these levels of protection that it is still possible in a modern multicrew airliner for crew rogue actions / violations to be accepted or even endorsed. Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.

[Doors to Automatic]

This guy deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail - what he did was virtually murder.

It is not as if he was landing on a short runway in marginal wx and events conspired against him - he was totally reckless. I mean 220kts and flap 5! what on earth was he thinking?

No excuse whatsoever - should have been life inside. End of.

[Centaurus]

Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.

Well put. It is a fair bet the silent majority of Pprune readers will agree 100 percent with you.

[parabellum]

I imagine this would be one of the rare occasions when insurance underwriters get involved with specific airline employees and I think, in this instance, the underwriters would withdraw cover for this pilot and any aircraft he flew.

The primary insurance cover may well be written by a local Indonesian company but their retention will be minimal, probably less than one percent of the total fleet value and little or nothing of the liabilities, so the vast majority of the cover will be written in the London Re-Insurance market and it is they who will call the shots.

[ecureilx]

Sorry for the thread drift ..

ampclamp Are you from DownUnder ?

Well, for the West (and the Down Under) drugs are "OK", but for Asians, that is as bad as murder ..

I know there are a few expat guys in Indonesia's Death row, for drug trafficking, and it is unfair to single out Indonesia, for that subject. := :=

I am not condoning the pilots action, but, calling drug usage or trafficking as 'minor' is not fair. In a skewed up anology, would you be happy to fly if the pilot had a 'bit' of drugs before his flight ?? :\

And, when you are in a foreign land, you must respect the rule of that land, and if you consider it is norm back home, and you want it to be norm in another country - no comments ...

BTW, talking of Asian laws, in Singapore, touching a woman without her permission leads to painful caning in the buttocks .. :E :E In West, you walk off with a warning or a week in the holding pan, at the worst ..

Back to the thread: I was told there was a lot of mudslinging going on, and to keep the pilot quite, he was declared as not guilty .. Maybe he can fly the hordes of 'feeder' liners .. and lately there is a massive expansion of rural operators ..

[rottenray]

Something tells me that this will turn out to be one of these "not who you know but who you blow" cases...

In any other country, you'd be seeing roadside stands selling "Garuda Pilot Jerky" by now - they would have been {rightly} flayed and hung to dry.

I guess the base message here is that if you think you're going to screw up, better do it in Indonesia - after you've made a few pals.


ecureilx writes:

BTW, talking of Asian laws, in Singapore, touching a woman without her permission leads to painful caning in the buttocks .. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gifIt's pretty much the same world-wide. In the US, your caning comes in the form of a huge legal battle that has been known to force some into bankruptcy.



Centaurus quotes:

Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.That's not unique. You can look at any country's history and find examples of the same.

The way you save face is by dealing with it at some point in the future - which I suspect is not what we'll see in this issue.

I'll throw out an old saw: "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."

I'll modify it: "Just because you can afford the license fees, insurance, pay for the pilots and crew, and lease airframes, doesn't mean you should operate an airline."


Quite honestly, some folks don't belong in aviation.

I can better understand some of the HUGE safety transgressions which occur in Africa - they're merely trying to connect parts of that huge continent as best they can, and they know the risks.


But when you present an under-funded operation which apparently lacks any of the traditional attitudes regarding airline safety and try to pass it off as an international carrier, that's another whole frigging deal.

Blacklisted? Sure.

The legit carriers servicing Indonesia don't need the competition, and folks are better off flying with an operator at least somewhat interested in preserving a long-term reputation.

[Wod]

The jail term may be confusing this.

In a "Western" environmemt we prefer to keep the law out of it.

In a case such as this the licensing authority would probably cancel the licence pending re-train and re-check.

The employer would probably bump the guy down to provisional F/O pending re-train and re-check, with a possible never to be given command again note on file.

Nothing so far says this is not the case, and some posters have suggested that the employer, at least, has put limits in place.

I think we need more info, and like others I'm not happy with courts sorting out pilot liability.

[HeadingSouth]

From Jambone's Link:

"...saying Captain Marwoto's negligence was not "legally and convincingly" proven."

I guess 21 victims and a hull loss don't count as "legally and convincingly proven" then. So, dear Court, enlighten me what is required for a "legal and convincing proof" ??

In addition, IMHO 2 years of jail would certainly not have helped in this case. I fear he'll be sitting in front again sooner or later putting passengers lives at risk. Has he learned from his accident ? Given his idea about wanting to fly again I guess he hasn't learned a bit. And that's what makes it dangerous...

OTOH I assume Garuda has become a lot safer now that he's not working there anymore...

[marcstar]

:eek:

I DONT CARE HOW CHEAP THEY ARE YOU WILL NEVER GET ME ON ONE OF THIER PLANES!!!!!!

GARUDA NOW NUMBER #1 NOT TO FLY!
:eek:

[Fantome]

In a case such as this the licensing authority would probably cancel the licence pending re-train and re-check.

Uh uh. At the least, barred for life. Permanent licence revocation.

[Rananim]

21 people lost their lives because the pilot had never been trained in the correct recovery procedure for being too hot/high on the approach.The procedure is either a)GO AROUND or b)trade profile for speed.
(a) is seen as defeatist in some cultures and (b) requires training outside normal SOP's(ie approach from below GP,gear down and flaps at 1 dot etc).I have it on authority that another Indonesian airline that is now deceased transferred a bunch of 737-200 rated guys onto the "classic" without ever doing a rating,and that they flouted every maintenance rule in the book from day 1.In such an environment,do you not think that it would be better to go after the "big guns" (ie the Indonesian CAA).After all,they allow and oversee the mess that is Indonesian aviation.Dont go after the little guys.

[Jim Croche]

The EU JAA/EASA has recently allowed Garuda back into the EU. How do you guys feel now re the state of Indonesian aviation and law??

The only way to sort them out is to refuse to allow them to operate any international flights until such time that it really hurts - in the pocket. And don't give me the bit that Garuda are the best of them and that thy're doing their best. "Their best" in Indonesia is just nopt good enough. Sick.

[parabellum]

the pilot had never been trained in the correct recovery procedure for being too hot/high on the approach.


You surely have some evidence to support this? It isn't special training specific to the B737 or jets in general, it is usually taught in the PA28, Cessna 152 etc. and carried forward to type. A captain of a commercial B737 with a few thousand hours shouldn't need any special training to enable him to recognise when he is twice as fast and much higher than he should be and nineteen aural warnings have blared at him as well as his F/O, he never established a stabilised approach, only one cure, GO AROUND.
He has lost far more face by being positively identified as an incompetent pilot who killed some passengers than one that did a G/A.

[Rananim]

You surely have some evidence to support this?


Well,no.I am assuming the culture of "never lose face" dissuaded him from the GA option and the fact that he never got the speed under control(and hence couldnt get the flaps out) means he didnt know that foregoing the profile initially was his only other option.If he'd known,presumably he would have done something about it.My guess is that the AP took him down the slope with speed increasing and he sat there and watched it ,unsure of what to do about it.Situation can be recovered with or w/o automatics but it must be done quickly.Whilst I agree it was reckless endangerment and he should never fly again,I would say the latent causes of the crash are to be found in the Indonesian civil aviation system as a whole.

[roQue]

just don't fly with garuda.. i'm not gonna put my life in their hands.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

Indonesia is often referred to as 'The most corrupt country in the world'.
Considering the long list of other corrupt countries in the world, that is really saying somthing.

So why would it be a surprise a court ruling such as this is later overturned.

[sTeamTraen]

>>just don't fly with garuda.. i'm not gonna put my life in their hands.
Good Airline.. Run Under Dutch Administration. :)

[AnthonyGA]

21 people lost their lives because the pilot had never been trained in the correct recovery procedure for being too hot/high on the approach.

What kind of training program turns people into "airline pilots" without ever covering this absolutely fundamental aspect of flying? What kind of national regulatory authority allows people to become airline pilots without this type of training?

[RoyHudd]

The word "Authority" is used loosely in many parts of the world. Indonesia is a most liberal country in regulatory matters, as has been proven with the extensive bans for Garuda and other carriers in more "demanding" states.

Nice people though, by and large.

[TIMA9X]

I doubt he will find employment anywhere even in Indonesia. What he did on that approach was outrageous.
I don't believe he should have been jailed for life or any pilot for that matter, but I trust if he turns up in a cockpit in Indonesia in the near future that the whistle blowers will announce this to the world!
The only thing that he should be driving is his only personal motorbike with no passengers!

[Jim Croche]

Remember the facts. He ignored 16 GPWS warnings. He ignored 5 calls from the FO to go around. He touched down with Flap 5 at about 210 kts. This has nothing to do with training. The guy shouldn't be in an aeroplane - period. Jail is too good for him.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon13.gif

[aseanaero]

I don't know how true this is but the scuttlebutt in Indo was Garuda pilots at that time had a bonus for saving fuel each month which was a substantial kicker to their salaries which could have caused the 'get-in-itis' of the captain.

No excuse but it could have been a factor in this illogical chain of events leading to the accident.

[arba]

aseanaero,

it was not true

[aseanaero]

Thanks for cleariing that up Arba

[aseanaero]

The pilots' association for Indonesia's Garuda Airlines says a bonus scheme for saving fuel could be encouraging pilots to attempt dangerous landings.
Twenty-one people, including five Australians, were killed last month when a Garuda plane crashed at Yogyakarta airport.
Indonesia's National Safety Transport Committee has officially released a summary of its preliminary findings into the crash, confirming that Garuda Flight 200 was travelling at around 410 kph - almost twice the normal speed - when it came in to land.
Garuda Pilots' Association president Captain Stephanus Geraldus says the pilot could gave been trying to save fuel by continuing with the landing rather than making another attempt.
"Maybe the captain wanted to save the fuel - this could be investigated," he said.
He says a new bonus scheme at Garuda rewards individual pilots for conserving fuel.
Meanwhile the man leading the investigation into the crash says a longer runway safety area at Yogyakarta airport may have reduced the impact.
The crash-landing of Garuda Flight 200 may not have been preventable, but the impact could have been "less severe" if international recommendations for safety areas at the end of runways were followed, Indonesia's National Safety Transport Committee's chief investigator Marjono Siswosuwarno said.
"The accident could not be prevented but the result can be less severe," he said.
The access roads for emergency vehicles at Yogyakarta's airport were also criticised by the committee in its preliminary report on the crash investigation.
Fences had prevented fire trucks from reaching the burning plane, which crashed across a road at the end of the runway.

Garuda crash pilot may have been trying to save fuel - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://abc.gov.au/news/stories/2007/04/12/1894980.htm)


A GARUDA jet continued its ill-fated landing despite "running wild" and becoming uncontrollable early in its approach to Yogyakarta Airport's in March last year, its captain, Marwoto Komar, confessed under police interrogation.
Komar's trial for criminal negligence over the deaths of 21 people in the crash, including five Australians, begins today. He has never spoken publicly about the Boeing 737's descent, but his police interrogation report, which is central to the case, has been obtained by Herald.
Under questioning, Komar said there had been arguments with his co-pilot during the landing. He admitted the plane touched down at an unsafe speed.
He said he was concerned about conserving fuel - one of the possible reasons advanced as to why 15 automated alarms telling the pilot to "go-around", were ignored.
Asked by police why he did not land visually after experiencing problems with an instrument landing, Komar said he did not tell his co-pilot he was continuing to use the instrument landing system "because at that time I was the only one in control of the plane that was already running wild".
"The plane nose was always going down and it was difficult for me to bring the plane nose up ... [one of] the reasons for that was the malfunction of the plane's stabiliser which is located at the tail of the plane. However, I could not be sure of the reason," he said.
"So it can be said that the plane's performance ... was not stable," Komar said.
He described unsuccessful attempts to bring under control a plane that was descending too quickly. He admitted he never achieved a safe speed.
"It was impossible for me to go around because it was difficult to lift up the plane's nose, so my last attempt was trying to put the plane on a glide path, reasoning the plane would not touch the soil that was ahead of the runway. In other words my only hope was to reach for the runway."
On landing, the plane was travelling at 150 knots (270kmh), he said. "I do know the possibility of the risks but at least at that time I thought that my attempts carried the least risk."
Police have called for Komar to be jailed for life for the crash. His is the first criminal prosecution of an Indonesian pilot.
Air safety investigators determined the plane landed at nearly double the safe speed, bouncing off the runway, through the airport fence and across an embankment. Its wing was severed and the plane caught alight with many passengers trapped inside.
The airport's safety run-off did not meet international safety standards and its fire-fighting equipment and practices were heavily criticised by investigators.
Komar said he compromised with his co-pilot, Gagam Rahman, on the level of flaps the plane was using on descent because "by using a flap of 30 degrees the usage of fuel was relatively not much". Garuda had introduced large bonuses for conserving fuel shortly before last year's accident.
Komar faces charges of negligence causing injury and death and flying an aircraft which endangered the safety of people on the plane.

Garuda pilot tells of wild death ride - World - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/garuda-pilot-tells-of-wild-death-ride/2008/07/23/1216492548186.html)

[arba]

We try to save fuel in everyday flying won't we? direct routing, low drag approach, single engine taxi, delay APU start, etc.

I don't know how you come up with this :

Garuda pilots at that time had a bonus for saving fuel each month which was a substantial kicker to their salaries

only this that I want to clear up.

[aseanaero]

The pilots' association for Indonesia's Garuda Airlines says a bonus scheme for saving fuel could be encouraging pilots to attempt dangerous landings.


I didn't come up with it.

[arba]

yea right , the trusty ABC !

[expat400]

"I don't believe he should have been jailed for life or any pilot for that matter"

Why not? What about a truckdriver doing 130 km/h on a village road crashing into a schoolyard killing 21 kids? Shouldn't he be jailed either?

Mistakes and misfortunes should not be punished by jail. This was not a mistake. The guy should be in jail.

[TIMA9X]

by me"I don't believe he should have been jailed for life or any pilot for that matter"I stand by this statement, (not for life anyway) the problem in some Asian countries is the loss of face issue, which does not fit with proper CRM training or CRM is not regarded seriously as it should be in the training departments by some Asian airlines. Sadly it is a culture thing, in Indonesia the Captain still has the last say and many FOs simply allow this to happen.

I did say What he did on that approach was outrageous. I feel in this case the co pilot could have done more to avert the situation if both men had a better understanding or belief in the purpose of CRM in the first place.

The second issue, many strips in Indonesia still to this day have below standard over-run areas at both ends of the runways, (below acceptable western standards) some with substantial drops into separate fenced off farming land hampering quick rescue attempts by firetrucks etc.

I can't give statistics on how many "go a rounds" are recorded in Indonesia but I suspect much lower than say in the West or more developed Asian aviation countries with much better attitudes to pilot training cultures and CRM.

Having said that, I do respect your point expat400 but remind you of the tragic crash of SQ flight 006 at Taipei airport although this was a take-off incident should this Captain be jailed for life? He has to live with it for the rest of his life.
Rushing to Die: The crash of Singapore Airlines flight 006 - Part One, Airline Safety, Airline crashes (http://www.airlinesafety.com/editorials/Singapore006.htm)

[expat400]

TIMA9X

Do you seriously think these two accidents are comparable?

[TIMA9X]

Do you seriously think these two accidents are comparable?Sure I do, It's a case of pilots not talking to each other! We could quote many approach incidents and take-off incidents until our faces turn blue.
I live in Asia for many years of my life working in and around aviation.

What about a truckdriver doing 130 km/h on a village road crashing into a schoolyard killing 21 kids? Shouldn't he be jailed either?
I agree 100 percent with this statement, who would not?

"But I think in this Garuda case the Captain was unstable" the FO could have done more and the Airline has dropped the bucket on him (the Captain) alone with out looking at its CRM training procedures or itself as an airline who employed this fellow in the first place. Also there were some senior Australian officials killed in the horrible crash, so the Indonesian courts made out that they were making an example of this Captain. I am not surprised that the decision was over turned, sadly that's the way it works in that country.
I say, should this captain be in command in the first place, what was his history leading up to his madness on that fatal approach. Some rumours say he did some other odd things beforehand that was no taken further because of the aviation culture that prevents whistle blowers being listened too. That's the way it is in Indonesia.

In Asia "loss of face" is a very important factor of many accidents over recent years, the pilots just keep at it on approach even if the FO suggests there is a problem, as I said before the Captain is the Captain and what he says is final.

The SQ thing was a combination of errors by the pilots and the Airport itself, this I agree with, but no one wanted to admit that any party was at fault. This goes for that Garuda pilot as well. The difference is SQ did something about it, adjusting their training methods and took it seriously.

I still wonder if Garuda has completely sorted out the problem, but I trust they have, so do we all!

Think about it, the BA 38 777 incident at EGLL, those guys did a fantastic job, the Captain allowing the FO to keep flying the AC whilst he tried to sort the problem. I say this Indonesian fellow would probably want to take the controls immediately.

Sure this guy should be doing more time behind bars, or in a mental institution, but that just shows us the difference between airlines with good training procedures including CRM and the the ones who lag behind in this field.

expat 400 you make good points, and I agree with your reasons, but at least we know that this guy wont fly again!!

[Swiss Cheese]

Having assisted many of the families/victims of Garuda 200 and helped them put back the pieces of their shattered lives over the past two and a half years, I was shocked by this.

Indonesia was rightly blacklisted by the EU for several years due to its systemic failures in air safety. Why do I suspect the conviction was a timely charade for the EU inspectors, who lifted the countrywide ban after that conviction, but of course knew nothing about the future quashing of it. Typical Indonesian cynicism, that generally rebounds on innocent passengers.

[TIMA9X]

I am sure that Garuda have made enough improvements to get themselves off the EU black list for their International routes and I wish them well.I have flown them many times before, but that was a long time ago now. Yes the Indonesian authorities have grounded many airlines because of safety concerns and quite frankly not before time.
JetPhotos.Net Photo » PK-KKV (CN: 27284) AdamAir Boeing 737-33A by Mahathir Mohamed Salleh (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5966864)

Also , I don't think Indonesia are the most corrupt in the world. There are others that are worse, eg Thailand, Burma,Sudan et all.Well I live in Thailand and to some extent agree with you, but BKP Bangkok Air is a well managed airline, Thai NOK and Thai Air Asia are doing a good job, and I feel safe flying with them locally. The bad ones have slowly weeded themselves out. The now defunct Phuket Air and the rumoured struggling One TWO GO are not having a good time since that MD80 crash in Phuket.

Some rumours say he did some other odd things beforehand that was no taken further because of the aviation culture that prevents whistle blowers being listened too. That's the way it is in Indonesia. This is also true in Thailand too, but to a lesser degree.

If you are happy with Garuda, I see no reason to stop flying with them, no doubt they have sorted out many of their problems.

I think it is fair to say that all the Garuda pilots currently flying are more aware of the airlines reputation and want to make sure that they do a good job. That 737 flight GA 200 crash in Yogyakarta caused by bad airman ship was the catalyst for changes of attitude towards air safety in Indonesia.

Well said Swiss Cheese, I concur Sir!

[expat400]

TIMA9X

You have some valid points about the accidents but I still disagree that they can be compared with regards to the punishment of the Captain.

If:

the Captain on SQ006 had known that the runway was blocked by bulldozers and still chosen to use it thinking "I'll be able to lift off before them"

and

the FO had several times told the Captain not to use the runway

and

a warning system continously had warned about the wrong runway and the Captain had ignored it

then these two accidents had been comparable. Not really what happened, right?

[CathyH]

I don't think that there is an Indonesian airline I would ever fly with!

[tu144]

When the police questioned him he said something about not being able to pull it up. Was there a mechanical problem with the plane also? If so then its all his fault?