Right - here we go. NPPL

[HeathrowAirport]

Hello,

Before anyone asks, I don't meet the Class 2 and 1 requirements but I have been signed off for a NPPL.

First off, were do I go? I have got 3hrs30minutes, 2 on the PA28, and my first landing on 3rd flight and first flight in PA38 I completed my first landing, with 1hr 30 minutes. With about 4000 in the FS toy.

1) So I need a club/airfield that has PA28s and is near London and is very cheap, I am not looking to travel to New york and back so anything Surrey, Essex, Kent, Sussex etc

2) What do I need to buy to complete the NPPL? Please list what Is required for me to complete my training, examinations etc, and if possible please point me to them on transair or pooleys. Charts probably wont be an issue, I have Jeppesen.

3)Is spinning compulsory, now I know those will probably say just do it - becuase if further on in my flying I hit a spin and I am on my own, It will kill me becuase I won't know. I feel a bit scared doing it.:suspect:

4) Can I get my current hours logged onto my NPPL as hours, I've got the dates somewere that I flew - so I could add them to a logbook when I get that, and get them signed off by the Instructor/pilot.


5) The additional ratings I can get with further training what are these? Anything I could fly like a twin prop that flys over London every sunday? Or am I beating on the wrong track?

Kindest Regards,

Robbie

[jonkil]

Robbie,
I think you are quite confused regarding the NPPL license.
First of all, all the info you need on the NPPL is HERE (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/), a simple google would have got you that.
4000 on a FS wont count for anything other than give you some idea what instruments are for, there is no feedback or stimulation like flying a plane for real.
Do you NEED to fly a PA28, if you are constrained by a budget then look at the microlight scene, some fast,efficient stuff out there at the moment, you did say all you were going to do was bimble around the SE of the country so it would fit the bill.

You will get a student pack when beginning your training, you should not need much more than that to obtain your license.

Jon
www.RuskeyAirfield.com (http://www.ruskeyairfield.com)

[Fake Sealion]

What Jonkil said

If you don't believe you will ever NEED to carry more than one passenger then the NPPL M should be seriously considered. 3 axis aircraft such as the Eurostar/Ikarus offer a great flying experience at roughly half the self fly hire cost of a PA28 or similar.:ok:

Go take a look at one and judge for yourself.

[Intercepted]

1) So I need a club/airfield that has PA28s and is near London and is very cheap, I am not looking to travel to New york and back so anything Surrey, Essex, Kent, Sussex etcWhere in London do you live/work? Some of us can give you recommendations based on your location. C152 is cheaper than PA28. If you want to fly PA28 after training you can combine both during training.

2) What do I need to buy to complete the NPPL? Please list what Is required for me to complete my training, examinations etc, and if possible please point me to them on transair or pooleys. Charts probably wont be an issue, I have Jeppesen.Most flying schools provide a starter package, but compare this with pooleys, transairs packages for price. Don't buy a package before you have decided what school to join (if you wan't to join their ground school you might want a particular set of books) .

3)Is spinning compulsory, now I know those will probably say just do it - becuase if further on in my flying I hit a spin and I am on my own, It will kill me becuase I won't know. I feel a bit scared doing it.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gifI never did spin training and some schools can't offer this since they don't have any types cleared for spinning. You can always add an hour of acrobatics after you have finished your ppl to get the experience of spins and more...

4) Can I get my current hours logged onto my NPPL as hours, I've got the dates somewere that I flew - so I could add them to a logbook when I get that, and get them signed off by the Instructor/pilot.Yes, get them signed of by the school/instructor you flew with.
5) The additional ratings I can get with further training what are these? Anything I could fly like a twin prop that flys over London every sunday? Or am I beating on the wrong track?No additional ratings are available for NPPL

With about 4000 in the FS toy.I stopped playing with FS when I started to fly.

[HeathrowAirport]

Hi Guys,

Some very Imformative posts here. Well I thought becuause I have done my trial/experience flights in 2008/09 in a PA28, I thought it would be best to continue with that - becuase I want to take a few family members up all together around the country once I get my license.

Microlight's? Can I then convert to a PA28 at a later date?

Fake Sealion - Does Biggin hill have a club that has microlights? Might be worth me to take a visit.
Intercepted - I live in Camberwell. 15DME 27R ILS if that helps.
Can I go out and buy a logbook though, so I can affectively get my hours transferred onto it, once I go to Filton again.

I rather not go spinning but if it's really worth it, then I might.. I understand FS doe's not provide anything, It did help me when I went flying to have a basic understanding of what you can and can't do - but then again.

Regards,

Robbie

[kestrel539]

There are also a couple of gliding clubs not that far from you, who may well offer NPL with SLMG.
These are probably as cheap as microlights per hour.
You will be able to convert to SSEA at a later date. ( LPL allowing of course )

[tangovictor]

if you decide on nppl m, you can later convert to nppl sep,( to fly a spam can) few hours extra and one further exam, re your 3 hours, 99.9% of people never qualify within the minimum amount of required hours, so is it worth the hassel ?

[HeathrowAirport]

Hi Guys,

I've had a look around and clacton aero club, Looks pretty good. I understand Its It's also a radio service, not a normal ATS. This would not affect anything right?

Any thought on this?

Regards,

R..

[funfly]

This discussion is weird.
Just visit a local flying club and TALK to the Chief Pilot - or indeed any instructor.
easy...

[Cusco]

I need to watch this thread a bit longer before I make my mind up..........

Cusco

[julian_storey]

Just visit a local flying club and TALK to the Chief Pilot - or indeed any instructor.

This is your best advice.

I'd add to that though and say go to SEVERAL clubs and speak to some instructors. Learn to fly with the one you get on with the best.

[mary meagher]

Hey, kid, you are 16 and want to fly your family around in a PA28?

Check out the gliding clubs. British Gliding Association has details of the ones nearest you. That's where the real fun starts, and it doesn't cost so much, most clubs do special deals for juniors, and the big party scene when you get good enough is the highly subsidised JUNIOR NATIONALS - if you are good enough! And you will learn weather, learn not to be worried about field landings, spins, aerobatics, this is real flying. We do rock polishing in the Black Mountains, climb to 30,000 in wave over Scotland, clubs everywhere if you pitch in and help out, you will become part of a special family who all look out for each other.

Or you can pay lots of money to fly a spam can, which makes a noise, and you can talk to a controller which is nice, but when the chips are down, you are on your own, no matter what kind of aeroplane you are flying.

A lot of airline pilots began in gliding, and now that they fly the Boeings and airbuses around, for real fun, you will find them flying gliders.....

You mention you don't qualify for a class I or class II, but for a NPL medical, which should not be a problem in a glider.

[Piper.Classique]

You don't mention transport to the airfield. You obviously can't drive yourself at 16, so how are you planning on getting there? Poor long suffering parental units? Give distance and travel problems some thought please....
Maybe a couple of weeks at a time on site would work out for you. And a bit less time posting on PPrune might help, too. Get your hours signed up anyway. Despite the doom merchants a PPL in 45 hours is possible if you are reasonably talented, work hard, and use a lot of self discipline about when you fly. I suppose the poor old folks are paying for this, so try to save some of their money for touring later on, eh?
:)

I understand Its It's also a radio service, not a normal ATS. This would not affect anything right?How could it? The radio does not fly the aeroplane.

[Stephen Furner]

Have you visited your local airfields to see what they have to offer? A quick look on my maps showed the following as potential training schools for someone located in Camberwell.

Miles from Camberwell/Airfield
13/Biggin Hill
19/Redhill
24/Rochester
25/Fairoaks
25/Damyn's Hall

They all have www sites but these are no substitute for going there and speaking to a few people and seeing for yourself what is going on.

But most of all hang loose and enjoy the experience it’s all part of aviation and discovering how to evaluate relevant information and then plan and act on it. This is something you will be doing a lot of as you progress with your flying.

Stephen

[seymour beaver]

Why not consider Headcorn at your age your still prepared to slum it as there is a campsite alongside, you could stay overnight and get the feel of the place.On a nice day theres always something going on at Headcorn either biplanes doing aeros or clubs doing training, pilots flying in or nutters jumping out of aircraft in the overhead:p.Ive always enjoyed the atmosphere at Headcorn a true enthuasiasts airfield.

[tggzzz]

Microlight's? Can I then convert to a PA28 at a later date?
Be aware of an issue with microlights "mixed with" conventional aircraft with sticks. In a conventional a/c pushing the stick forward increases the airspeed, whereas in a microlight it reduces the airspeed. If you learn on one they you may have the wrong instinctive reactions - an extreme form of "reverting to type" pilot error.

If you are interested in flying conventional aircraft then you might like to consider sticking (pun not intended :) to conventional aircraft I rather not go spinning but if it's really worth it, then I might.
It is worth it. Firstly it is exhilarating. Secondly and more importantly, you need to have practiced recovery before you need to do it for real. Most pilots won't have the right reactions during their first spin, even if they have been told what they ought to do.

Consider going gliding - spinning is mandatory before going solo. All gliding clubs have some aircraft that are designed to predictably enter and exit spins. As an example, just before going solo I had a flight where I recovered from three spins (three revolutions each) starting at about 1500ft.

[rans6andrew]

there are plenty of microlights in which "stick forwards" makes the cows get bigger.

CT, Rans S4 & S5 & S6, Icarus C42, Eurostar, Twinstar, 601ul, 701, Savannah, Thruster, 2 types of X'Air, Skyranger, Escapade, some of the Shadow series, Foxbat A22, Pioneer 200, Renegade Spirit etc,,,,,,, Sorry if I missed some.

AND with an NPPL microlight licence you can fly to France without having to apply for permission already (and we do!).

Oh yes, and the training can be done from un-licenced airfields and generally costs less than Gp A aircraft as fewer hours are required and those hours are often cheaper.

If you are flying for recreation why would you want to make it more expensive than it needs to be.

[cats_five]

<snip>
Consider going gliding - spinning is mandatory before going solo.
<snip>

Spinning isn't necessarily compulsory before going solo in gliders - it depends on what type of 2-seat glider you fly, and where. My club has K21s and I know several folks who have gone solo without spinning, but they are not allowed into the Junior (spinnable single-seater) until they have. If the 2-seater is a Puchatz or a K13 then I imagine spinning before solo is required.

[tggzzz]

Spinning isn't necessarily compulsory before going solo in gliders - it depends on what type of 2-seat glider you fly, and where. My club has K21s and I know several folks who have gone solo without spinning, but they are not allowed into the Junior (spinnable single-seater) until they have. If the 2-seater is a Puchatz or a K13 then I imagine spinning before solo is required.
I'm surprised, but I can see how that can occur if K21s are used as pre-solo trainers.

I wonder how many clubs have the same "problem" (yup, that's my value-judgement showing :)

[chris 68]

can i please ask of the back of this:-

after going 20 hrs ppl trainning soloing and 2 schools going to the walls on me and my company going to the recivers, was a tough year financal (for alot of people also)

so i am very reluctant to pay a large amount of money up front, im very cost aware like most at the the moment, but its the only way to keep the costs lower in my budget (ie reduced rate= but high risk)

so my question i am thinking of doing nppl(m) to keep costs down, also as alot of schools use the same aircraft for ppl(a) and nppl(m)

what or how difficult is it to enjoy my flying 3 axis microlight then convert to ppl later as a flying school adviced me to do this but i was a little unsure of what i was being told, sceptic im affraid as they where are a micro light school.

how ever i do feel it is now the right way to go but i would as has allways been my goal to take my family flying eventually.

sorry if that was long winded but was the only way i could think to explain my situation.

sorry about the sppelling also not my strong point oh and a HAPPY NEW YEAR SAFE FLYING 2010 EVERYBODY.

CHRIS

[gpn01]

Spinning isn't necessarily compulsory before going solo in gliders - it depends on what type of 2-seat glider you fly, and where. My club has K21s and I know several folks who have gone solo without spinning

Really ? I'm pretty sure that a K-21, like any other glider, can and will spin. It may take a convoluted set of circumstances (light pilot, flown solo, wet/iced wings, gusty conditions). So, never believe anyone that says that a design can't spin. Oh, and an additional problem is that anything that doesn't spin very easily probably won't recover very easily either.

Spinning exercises are included on the BGA progress cards. I can presume only that your club instructors and CFI are exceedingly confident that early solo pilots who haven't completed spin training are still able to recognise the symptoms and recover before a spin develops. I'd be curious how they'd cope if they visit another club and need a site check (which'll often include an impromptu set of spin exercises)!

[flybymike]

there are plenty of microlights in which "stick forwards" makes the cows get bigger.


And on these types stick too far back also makes cows get bigger.

[liam548]

afaik spinning is optional in the NPPL just like the PPL and even CPL.

How to avoid spins is what is taught now....

[cats_five]

Really ? I'm pretty sure that a K-21, like any other glider, can and will spin. It may take a convoluted set of circumstances (light pilot, flown solo, wet/iced wings, gusty conditions). So, never believe anyone that says that a design can't spin. Oh, and an additional problem is that anything that doesn't spin very easily probably won't recover very easily either.

Spinning exercises are included on the BGA progress cards. I can presume only that your club instructors and CFI are exceedingly confident that early solo pilots who haven't completed spin training are still able to recognise the symptoms and recover before a spin develops. I'd be curious how they'd cope if they visit another club and need a site check (which'll often include an impromptu set of spin exercises)!

I agree that almost any glider (plane) can be provoked into spinning. However, does anyone know of a K21 accident involving spinning? I mean know in that there is something other than 'fred knows joe who knows john who knows....' kind of knowledge. I can't find one in the BGA accident database.

I'd also point out that stalling exercises are on the pre-solo cards as well, and if a pilot can correctly identify getting close to the stall and fix it they are not going to spin. So, do we know of any accidents with very early solo pilots involving a stall in a K21? (again, I don't mean hearsay knowledge)

The one spinning accident I've got proper knowledge of (the P2 who was not doing the flying at the time told me) was a K13 spun low down by the P1 who had 'get-back-to-the-launch-point-itis'. Luckily they spun into something soft.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Hi Chris 68,

Most people, particularly on here, will advise strongly against paying up front. With two schools going to the wall you know why. If possible, make sure you get your training notes (the stuff the instructors put in your training file, plus the record of any ground examination passes) from the two schools you have used.

I suspect the cheapest way to progress is NPPL(M) and then NPPL(SSEA), depending on how many of your family you want to take flying at the same time. Three axis microlights come in a wide variety of flavors, from simple AX3 types up to some very fancy (read expensive) hot ships. You may find that the NPPL(M) allows you to do everything you want. It has the advantage of being a lifetime licence, so unlike the JAR / EASA PPL it doesn't have to be renewed every five years. You also have the advantage of the Medical Declaration, rather than the JAR Class 2 Medical, which also saves you money from your flying budget.

Once you have a licence, you will find out which aspects appeal to you most. It may be touring, fly-ins like yesterday's New Year's Day Fly-In at Popham or aerobatics (not usually in microlights). You can then choose the training and aircraft that suits your needs.

Which ever way you choose to go, good luck with your studies.

Happy New Year & Safe Flying.

Richard W.

[gpn01]

@ Cats_Five - I've flown with enough students who have inadvertantly stalled a K-21. Some of them have needed prompting to recover and one therefore wonders what would have happened if I wasn't in the backseat. Ok, they were pre-solo and so it was a useful reinforcement exercise but I hope that the point is clear...pilots can and do stall gliders (and the K-21 is no exception). As for whether the K-21 can/does spin...I'd suggest re-reading the K-21 Flight Manual about an unusual situation which may cause it to spin! I reiterate my previous point too - gliders such as the K-21 are very spin resistant but given the right circumstances they will. The fact that there don't appear to be any spin recovery failure accidents on the BGA database is good but I don't know if this is the case for every other country.

[chris 68]

thankyou Whiskey Kilo Wanderer

that was very helpfull,what im trying to find out is whats required to convert from nppl(m) to ppl (a)

either way i found your replay a great help thanks again

chris

[cats_five]

Not only are there no K21 spinning accidents in the BGA database, there are no stall ones either. That an ab initio can inadvertantly stall a glider - any glider - suggests to me that that particular ab initio is nowhere near ready to go solo, in any glider.

But as you say, are there any recorded spin accidents in a K21 in other countries, or come to that stall accidents? (actually if you include mis-handled winch launch failures there are probably some of the later, but I doubt that spin training would affect the outcome)

[gpn01]

Not only are there no K21 spinning accidents in the BGA database, there are no stall ones either. That an ab initio can inadvertantly stall a glider - any glider - suggests to me that that particular ab initio is nowhere near ready to go solo, in any glider.

But as you say, are there any recorded spin accidents in a K21 in other countries, or come to that stall accidents? (actually if you include mis-handled winch launch failures there are probably some of the later, but I doubt that spin training would affect the outcome)

So, have you never unintentionally stalled a glider yourself post-solo? I'll admit that I have (in both erect and incerted flight) but I recovered to normal flight and wouldn't consider the events notifiable.

Stalling and spinning INCIDENTS don't appear in the BGA database, it's only when there hasn't been the appropriate corrective action applied in time and an event has turned into an ACCIDENT that it is registered. Therefore, going back to the original point of my post, K-21s can spin. All because people claim that they can't, and that there's no recorded accidents as a consequence of a failure to recover, does not make the glider unspinnable.

[cats_five]

So, have you never unintentionally stalled a glider yourself post-solo? I'll admit that I have (in both erect and incerted flight) but I recovered to normal flight and wouldn't consider the events notifiable.

Stalling and spinning INCIDENTS don't appear in the BGA database, it's only when there hasn't been the appropriate corrective action applied in time and an event has turned into an ACCIDENT that it is registered. Therefore, going back to the original point of my post, K-21s can spin. All because people claim that they can't, and that there's no recorded accidents as a consequence of a failure to recover, does not make the glider unspinnable.

Funnily enough no, I've never unintentionally stalled either pre- or post-solo. When I got my own glider it suddenly went rather quiet during my first soring flight, a bit of stick forward and all was well and has been ever since.

Yes, K21s can spin, but the accident evidence seems to be that it's a remarkable event and the flight manual makes it clear it's unlikely unless you are flying a single pilot near the bottom end of the weight limits - in which case a ballast weight (or two) is probably called for.

I'm sure my club will continue it's policy of allowing people to go solo in the K21 without spinning, and I'm equally sure it will continue it's policy of not allowing them in a single-seater until they have demonstrated they can recover from a spin. I am told we have a remarkably good safety record.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Hi Chris,

Basically you are looking at a two stage process:

NPPL(Microlight) -> NPPL(Simple Single Engined Aircraft) -> JAR-FCL PPL(A)

Although as stated earlier, there is not much benefit in going from NPPL(SSEA) to JAR-FCL PPL(A). LASORS is your friend for all this sort of stuff. You can get a free down-load .PDF (75Mb) of the document from the CAA website, which saves buying it.
LASOSR view / down-load (http://http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2008%20(Bookmarked).pdf)

Section 6 refers to the NPPL, with Section C6.3 giving the details for the NPPL(M) licence.

Look at the NPPL website and check Section 2.1 - Cross Crediting for NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA)
NPPL Cross Crediting Document (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/New/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2008.pdf)

Now jump back to LASORS Section C6.2 for a subsection on Upgrading to JAR-FCL PPL(A)

LASORS isn't exactly good bed time reading, but combined with the NPPL website stuff, it will answer your questions.

Good luck & Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[gpn01]

Funnily enough no, I've never unintentionally stalled either pre- or post-solo. When I got my own glider it suddenly went rather quiet during my first soring flight, a bit of stick forward and all was well and has been ever since.


So, you've never unintentionally stalled, although it appears you've managed to recognise, and recover from exactly such a situation? H'mmm. In fairness to you, it's also possible that you've not flown the glider anywhere near to its limits or in rough conditions, in which case I accept entirely that you've never inadvertantly stalled a glider.

Yes, K21s can spin, but the accident evidence seems to be that it's a remarkable event and the flight manual makes it clear it's unlikely unless you are flying a single pilot near the bottom end of the weight limits - in which case a ballast weight (or two) is probably called for.

It seems then that we have different copies of the K-21 Flight Manual. Could you recheck Section III.4 of yours (wing dropping and how a spin can ensue) and let me know which section refers to the single pilot, etc. that you refer to?


I'm sure my club will continue it's policy of allowing people to go solo in the K21 without spinning, and I'm equally sure it will continue it's policy of not allowing them in a single-seater until they have demonstrated they can recover from a spin. I am told we have a remarkably good safety record.
I hope that the good safety record continues. I can presume that it's not a BGA affiliated club though as part of the BGA syllabus (exercise 19) is spin recogntition and recovery. Aagain, I restate my concern about how your pilots are declared fit for solo and could then go visit other clubs with gliders that don't have such benign characteristics.

[cats_five]

So, you've never unintentionally stalled, although it appears you've managed to recognise, and recover from exactly such a situation? H'mmm. In fairness to you, it's also possible that you've not flown the glider anywhere near to its limits or in rough conditions, in which case I accept entirely that you've never inadvertantly stalled a glider.


It seems then that we have different copies of the K-21 Flight Manual. Could you recheck Section III.4 of yours (wing dropping and how a spin can ensue) and let me know which section refers to the single pilot, etc. that you refer to?


I hope that the good safety record continues. I can presume that it's not a BGA affiliated club though as part of the BGA syllabus (exercise 19) is spin recogntition and recovery. Aagain, I restate my concern about how your pilots are declared fit for solo and could then go visit other clubs with gliders that don't have such benign characteristics.

The condition I recognised and dealt with was not a stall, it was pre-stall. (see the very first part of exercise 18 in the BGA syllabus) Stick forward a tad was all that was required. Had I done nothing the glider would have stalled and quite likely spun, but things never got that out of hand. I do fly in rough conditions, but was not allowed to do so on my own when an early solo pilot. Have I flown my glider to it's limits? How do you define that?

Yes, it's a BGA affiliated club. A few people are deemed ready for solo except they've not been able to do spin training (weather). Some of them get sent solo, but have to do spinning ASAP and certainly before flying the single-seaters. We also have a system that makes sure that early solo pilots have to do plenty of check flights. And yes, I agree that the BGA syllabus as published on the website implies that glider pilots should have been spin-trained before first solo.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/Syllabusv4June08.pdf


http://skylinesoaring.org/docs/Flight_Manual_ASK-21.pdf
Section IV.6 of the above on-line flight refers to pilot weights and where the CoG is in relation to the datum. Section III.4 refers to dealing with a wing drop in turbulence - stick forward, rudder against any turn.

But - would you send someone on their first solo in anything but very benign conditions? No. Would you send a very early solo pilot off in turbulent conditions? No. Would you send someone who has not done spin training off in conditions that could provoke a wing-drop in a K21? No. Would you expect an early solo pilot to fly a glider 'to it's limits'? No.

What would your club (assuming you fly gliders) do if someone from another club turned up wanting to fly? At mine after the administrative stuff their training cards and log books would be checked by the duty instructor, they would have to do check flights, and if they were that early a solo I doubt they would get to fly solo regardless of the conditions.

Even if they turn up with three Diamonds and a big posh glider of their own, their log book is checked and if there is anything to give any doubts they have to do check flights. Hopefully your club has a similar system.

[chris 68]

Hi Chris,

Basically you are looking at a two stage process:

NPPL(Microlight) -> NPPL(Simple Single Engined Aircraft) -> JAR-FCL PPL(A)

Although as stated earlier, there is not much benefit in going from NPPL(SSEA) to JAR-FCL PPL(A). LASORS is your friend for all this sort of stuff. You can get a free down-load .PDF (75Mb) of the document from the CAA website, which saves buying it.
LASOSR view / down-load (http://http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2008%20(Bookmarked).pdf)

Section 6 refers to the NPPL, with Section C6.3 giving the details for the NPPL(M) licence.

Look at the NPPL website and check Section 2.1 - Cross Crediting for NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA)
NPPL Cross Crediting Document (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/New/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2008.pdf)

Now jump back to LASORS Section C6.2 for a subsection on Upgrading to JAR-FCL PPL(A)

LASORS isn't exactly good bed time reading, but combined with the NPPL website stuff, it will answer your questions.

Good luck & Safe Flying,
Richard W.


thank you again was very helpfull

chris

[gpn01]

Have I flown my glider to it's limits? How do you define that?

Go through the flight envelope and, with appropriate supervision (and plenty of height!) take a look at the glider's behaviour towards the boundaries - e.g. low speed handling, changing effect of controls, high speed stalls, inverted flight, etc. A great way of learning more about how the glider feels at different speeds, G-loadings, etc.

Have I flown my glider to it's limits? How do you define that?
Some of them get sent solo, but have to do spinning ASAP and certainly before flying the single-seaters. We also have a system that makes sure that early solo pilots have to do plenty of check flights. And yes, I agree that the BGA syllabus as published on the website implies that glider pilots should have been spin-trained before first solo.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/Syllabusv4June08.pdf

Interesting that the instructors recognise the need for spin recognition, avoidance and recovery but don't deem it mandatory before solo - presume some form of risk assessment has been done and they've judged that the odds of an early solo pilot coming a cropper before they've been fully trained are low enough.


http://skylinesoaring.org/docs/Flight_Manual_ASK-21.pdf
Section IV.6 of the above on-line flight refers to pilot weights and where the CoG is in relation to the datum. Section III.4 refers to dealing with a wing drop in turbulence - stick forward, rudder against any turn.

Good call on the quote - fair point. However, both sections refer to how incorrect action can lead to a spin developing (irrespective of C.G.position). Remember too that the manual relates to fairly optimal circumstances and doesn't generally consider things like additional drag on the wings due to dirty, wet or icy wings.


What would your club (assuming you fly gliders) do if someone from another club turned up wanting to fly? At mine after the administrative stuff their training cards and log books would be checked by the duty instructor, they would have to do check flights, and if they were that early a solo I doubt they would get to fly solo regardless of the conditions.

Even if they turn up with three Diamonds and a big posh glider of their own, their log book is checked and if there is anything to give any doubts they have to do check flights. Hopefully your club has a similar system.
Club's I've visited in the UK tend to have a process along the lines of: Fill in paperwork; show evidence of medical declaration (if needed); show logbook to duty instructor; instructor ignores logbook; go fly with instructor and show that you're safe and can handle the local site and conditions. I don't think my local club is any different.

[cats_five]

Interesting that the instructors recognise the need for spin recognition, avoidance and recovery but don't deem it mandatory before solo - presume some form of risk assessment has been done and they've judged that the odds of an early solo pilot coming a cropper before they've been fully trained are low enough.

Good call on the quote - fair point. However, both sections refer to how incorrect action can lead to a spin developing (irrespective of C.G.position). Remember too that the manual relates to fairly optimal circumstances and doesn't generally consider things like additional drag on the wings due to dirty, wet or icy wings.

Our early solo pilots are very, very carefully looked after. Before each flight the instructor will be assessing them and the conditions, and we have nearly all had the experience of turning up on a day when we don't get to fly on our own.

WRT wet / icy wings - do you think any pilot should set off with wet or icy wings? No. We are very careful about that. And the duty instructor will make sure an early solo pilot doesn't set off into rain / icing conditions, or of course into conditions that are too turbulent for their level of experience.

And when has a glider pilot ever been 'fully trained'? For EASA purposes, the equivalent for a PPL/NPPL has been deemed to be Bronze plus XC Endorsement, but really that's just another beginning for anyone with any ambition to do more than stooge around in local lift.

[gpn01]

WRT wet / icy wings - do you think any pilot should set off with wet or icy wings? No. We are very careful about that. And the duty instructor will make sure an early solo pilot doesn't set off into rain / icing conditions, or of course into conditions that are too turbulent for their level of experience.

I agree that pilots shouldn't launch with wet or icy wings. However I've seen plenty of gliders land with them. Flying near Cumulus can be enough to experience both. Don't know what the conditions at your site are like but I've flown at clubs wheer the weather changes very quickly.

And when has a glider pilot ever been 'fully trained'? For EASA purposes, the equivalent for a PPL/NPPL has been deemed to be Bronze plus XC Endorsement, but really that's just another beginning for anyone with any ambition to do more than stooge around in local lift.
Agree - I have very limited experience compared to some glider pilots and am always keen to learn more.

[cats_five]

I say again, going solo without spin training where I fly is really a very transitory thing, not a state of affairs that is allowed to persist, and all very early solo pilots are looked after very, very carefully.

Their first solo will be a circuit - no more - and for some time the new solo pilot will not fly (at my club) without a check flight beforehand, so the instructor will have a good idea if icing / rain during flight is likely to be a problem.

By the time someone will be allowed to fly when there things might happen to them in the air they should have got their spin training done and also be a somewhat more experienced pilot.