Thielert - bring out your dead . . .

[EchoMike]

If I wanted to buy a complete dead Thielert firewall forward package, and it doesn't have to be airworthy, what do you think it might cost? I'd figure since it isn't airworthy and isn't economical to make it so, it ought to be pretty reasonable.

I'd want the engine, controller box, gearbox, propeller, motor mount, basically the whole Thielert package, and will need to have it shipped to Florida. Cowling and radiators might help, too.

Your comments are solicited. There's no lawsuit involved, I want this for my own purposes. Yes, I will sign a release, so you don't have to worry that I'll come back later with a lawyer and complain. :}

[B2N2]

Very unlikely,Thielert will not allow it.
Run out engines have to be returned to Thielert, without exception.
They do not want engines floating around in the aftermarket world.
Release or not.

[wsmempson]

Just buy a knackered Mercedes Benz A170 D; If you're not going to use the unit for flying, it will more or less amount to the same thing...?:rolleyes:

[IO540]

Thielert will not allow it.

They cannot enforce such a policy. If you buy some aero engine, nobody can stop you installing it in a lawn mower, etc. It's yours to do with as you wish.

[EchoMike]

Thielert is bankrupt - Herr T. is in the local slammer, and so is his CFO, one Rosthwila something or other. Company is in receivership, there does appear to be a successor company, but it is doubtful that any of the agreements between Thielert and the (many) unhappy engine owners will be legally enforceable in either direction. (Why does this remind me of the dead parrot routine? He's pining for the fijords . . .:))

Anyway, any and all of Thielert's requirements are now moot. Besides, at this point if someone shipped their knackered 300 hour engine to Thielert, they'd be out the shipping cost as well as the scrap value (what a mess!!) and I don't think there is anyone there to accept it, either.

What I want to do is basically take this apart and look things over. I want to see just exactly what is inside this 300 hour gearbox which now sells for the price of a new Honda Civic. I want to see the "unrepairable" oil nozzles that have a habit of falling off and toasting the engine. I want to see what they did right, as well as what they did wrong - in engineering - I already know what they did wrong in finance.

There are a number of aircraft being converted to Lycomings. As these conversions progress, the removed parts are going to be worth less and less because there will be fewer and fewer people who need them.

I want to do a mechanical post-mortem here - just out of sheer curiosity! I want to be able to learn from the mistakes of others, it is too expensive to make these mistakes myself, or pay for a different engine on which someone else has made these same mistakes.

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

[MichaelJP59]

On a related topic, noticed there are quite a few DA42s for sale with Thielert engines, they still seem quite expensive though at €400K-ish, are they all discounted by the cost of engine replacement? (approx €100K?)

[EchoMike]

I really do feel badly for the people who bought Thielert powered airplanes and have been left holding a very expensive and mostly empty bag.

The economics are truly daunting - say the DA-42 airplane is "worth" 500,000 Euros, and it is "discounted" by 100,000 Euros for the estimated engine replacement expense. That 100,000 Euro discount isn't nearly enough - here's why: First, you need to buy the airplane, which (probably) cannot be flown, and that means the wings need to come off and the airplane has to be trailered somewhere. Second, you can't just get another pair of Thielert engines, that puts you right back in the same pickle. Third, the only viable replacement engines are the Austro engines (which may not be instantly available) or the Lycomings. Both these engines require installation, and they are not simple bolt-ins. They also require new (different) propellers, engine mounts, exhaust systems, possibly cowlings, controls, electrical modifications - make no mistake, this is a BIG job and you are doing it TWICE, once for each engine!

So someone buys the airplane for 400,000 Euros, has the expense of moving it, has the expense of insuring it even though it can't be flown, has the expense of obtaining the new engines and propellers (and and and) AND then installing everything - and it may easily take six or eight months before everything has arrived and all the bugs and kinks are worked out - also don't forget, the labor isn't going to be free, and there will be a LOT of it, and THEN they have an airplane which (by that time) likely isn't worth some 400,000 Euros anyway . . .

Seriously, why spend 400,000 Euros plus another (guesstimated) 200,000 Euros plus a LOT of time and trouble, only to wind up with something worth perhaps 400,000 Euros when the smoke clears? To make it worth even thinking about going through this hassle, the non-flying DA-42 has to be bought for 150,000 Euros, or even less, otherwise it simply isn't worthwhile, there's no advantage here and no bargain. These guys are getting a double-whammy - in addition to the engine problem, these are new airplanes and thus depreciate rapidly even if everything was just fine with them, and it isn't.

Any wonder these people are unhappy? I sure would be.

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

[englishal]

Anyway, any and all of Thielert's requirements are now moot. Besides, at this point if someone shipped their knackered 300 hour engine to Thielert, they'd be out the shipping cost as well as the scrap value (what a mess!!) and I don't think there is anyone there to accept it, either.

What I want to do is basically take this apart and look things over. I want to see just exactly what is inside this 300 hour gearbox which now sells for the price of a new Honda Civic.
They are not knackered, they just require a 300 hr gearbox inspection. There are various ways to interpret how this is done apparently but you should allow $20,000. After which the airplane is good for 300 more hours.

DA42's are a bargain at the moment, $275,000 for a couple of year old airframe. Guess what, Diamond will sell you an "NG" upgrade for $200,000 and you can get in excess of $50,000 for your old engines (note: Diamond will use these to ship as spares to existing users.)...So what you do is at the next 300hr, upgrade to NG.

So for $425,000 you end up with a DA42NG.....how much are they new? It has never been a better time to buy a DA42 ;)

[IO540]

Seriously, why spend 400,000 Euros plus another (guesstimated) 200,000 Euros plus a LOT of time and trouble, only to wind up with something worth perhaps 400,000 Euros when the smoke clears?

Isn't that the case with all aircraft, in different degrees.

Look at your nearest 1970 Cessna 150.

Worth £15k (if it's a good one).

An Annual might cost £5k.

After each annual, when the smoke has cleared, it is worth ............... £15k !!!

:)

This is aviation, after all.

[BackPacker]

First, you need to buy the airplane, which (probably) cannot be flown, and that means the wings need to come off and the airplane has to be trailered somewhere.

The engines are not broken, they're a lifed item. It would be monumentally stupid to fly the airframe on the last hours allowed on the engines to a place where the engines can't be replaced. And even if you did something like that, you would probably be able to get an extension somehow (or use the don't tell, don't ask principle) to get the airframe to a place where they can replace the engines. There are very few places in Western Europe where you can't reach such a place in less than an hour flying time.

Second, you can't just get another pair of Thielert engines, that puts you right back in the same pickle.

To the best of my knowledge, Thielert engines are (finally) available again. They just put new ones in my clubs DA-40 and Robin DR400-135s at least. They'll cost more than previously and thus you need to increase your hourly contribution to the engine fund (to the point where the economics of flying a Diesel engine don't make sense anymore), but the days that the aircraft were simply grounded due to lack of engines/gearboxes seem to be over.

has the expense of insuring it even though it can't be flown,

Not an expert, but I would imagine that an airframe that's guaranteed to sit on the ground for an extended time (because it's still being (home)built, engines being replaced, laid up or other reasons) would be significantly less costly to insure than an airframe in flying condition. I mean, who needs 3 MEUR third-party liability insurance for an airframe stored in a corner of a hangar somewhere?

[B2N2]

What I want to do is basically take this apart and look things over. I want to see just exactly what is inside this 300 hour gearbox which now sells for the price of a new Honda Civic. I want to see the "unrepairable" oil nozzles that have a habit of falling off and toasting the engine. I want to see what they did right, as well as what they did wrong - in engineering - I already know what they did wrong in finance.

Well you could start with the AFM and the maintenance manual.
But then again you already know everything....it seems
Anyway, any and all of Thielert's requirements are now moot

[EchoMike]

Tip of the hat to IO540!

Isn't that the case with all aircraft, in different degrees.
Look at your nearest 1970 Cessna 150.
Worth £15k (if it's a good one).
An Annual might cost £5k.
After each annual, when the smoke has cleared, it is worth ............... £15k !!!

You're correct. I'm used to $500 annuals on my 150 here in the US of A, where we don't get hammered quite as badly as our UK cousins. If someone charged me $7,000 (or equivalent) on a C150 annual, I'd be looking to have his head on a pike outside my hangar.

This is aviation, after all.


And a tip of the hat to Backpacker as well!

Location of the airplane is a consideration - it MAY be flyable, it may not be. I've seen a few flown under the don't-ask-don't-tell ferry system, but there would be a problem with insurance if anything happened. Here, we can get a one-time ferry permit for otherwise un-airworthy aircraft, but you better be sure you can fix it at the destination because most of the time you can only get ONE ferry permit!

To the best of my knowledge, Thielert engines are (finally) available again. They just put new ones in my clubs DA-40 and Robin DR400-135s at least <snipped> but the days that the aircraft were simply grounded due to lack of engines/gearboxes seem to be over.

I am very glad to hear that - it will preserve the investments of many people. Hopefully alternatives will become available and then the aircraft in question won't have the stigma and expense of the Thielert debacle. Diesel is a great idea, and one whose time has come, but not in the incarnation of Herr T.

Quote:
has the expense of insuring it even though it can't be flown,

I've been poking around the Thielert Engine Owner's Group - there's one poor (or at least he is now) guy paying over $4,000 a year for "not in motion" insurance ONLY! The lender insists the asset remain insured and doesn't care if it flies or not. His payment is also something like $5,000 a month. Gads.


B2N2 takes exception to my statement that whatever Thielert GMBH wants is moot, and says I seem to know everything already . . .

Shucks, B2N2, flattery will get you anything.

When you've been in business and corporate finance for over 35 years, you tend to pick up on things. One of the things I've picked up on is this - unless the original contract specifically stated "binding on heirs, successors and assigns", once the company is out of business, the contract is completely null, void and unenforceable. Thielert didn't go into reorganization, it went OUT of business - defunct. The conservator sold all the assets to a new and different corporation - a different entity - not to a reorganized Thielert. The contracts between Thielert and the aircraft owners were viewed as a liability (Thielert had to stand behind their warranty) and were promptly canceled by the conservator under the bankruptcy laws in Germany (same thing happens here). They can't cancel only their obligations under the contract but still hold you to yours, either.

The "heirs, successors and assigns" clause is why you don't get out of your mortgage when your bank gets absorbed by a larger one or closed by the FDIC. Herr T evidently planned to take over the world (or at least the aviation world) and probably didn't bother to include that clause thinking he would be in business forever.

The new company may or may not demand core returns as a condition of supplying new parts, but in my experience, unless they ask REAL NICE for the cores - and with a convincing explanation of why they need them - and how much value (which better be significant) they will credit for them, the owners are going to be even more unhappy than they are now.

I do have a line on the AFM and manuals, but nothing beats hands-on.

By the way, I've flown an Islander - slow, noisy inside, but lots of fun.

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

[moggiee]

We've just bitten the bullet and upgraded our DA42 to the AE300 engine. The €99,000 upgrade (which includes beefed up landing gear, higher MTOW and a number of other upgrades) is not much more expensive than a couple of Thielerts and the cost of fitting.

Overhauled AE300s will be a little over half the price of a replacement Thielert (remember, Thielerts can't be overhauled, you have to buy new) and during their life the gearboxes don't need to be replaced, nor fuel pumps (600 hours and costing even more than the gearboxes). This should mean a 90% saving in the cost of replacing lifed parts - yes, 90% saving! This should restore the economics of the diesel engine.

To the best of my knowledge, Thielert engines are (finally) available again.

Thielerts have always been available throughout the time since the company went bust - just at much higher costs and with an occasional long-ish lead time. We never stopped operating our Thielert equipped fleet. We were lucky, to an extent, as our engines had just reached the end of their life and would have needed to be replaced anyway and so the upgrade to the AE300 was a no brainer.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/391274-da42-austro-engines-another-aircraft-being-retrofitted.html