MCC Courses

[mac636]

Can anyone give me some advice on the MCC and JOC courses?

I have been looking at European in Bournemouth and Oxford Aviation.

[acepilotmurdock]

I just finished it at Oxford...and was good!

[Capt. Spock]

Ace, I'm curious what made you to choose Oxford over European Skybus. I'm in a similar situation and trying to make up my mind between the two of them.

[Phenom100]

How about, Oxford have just reduced the price by 1k.

[acepilotmurdock]

yeah a big part was that Oxford were doing....and might still be doing the MCC/JOC for 3K. Now my advice to you would be do an MCC as cheaply as possible as it is a hoop which you have to jump through. It doesn't matter if it is done on a 737, airbus or fixed box FNPTII, as long as you get the certificate.
However I cant speak about Skybus as I never trained there, but Have herd nothing but positive things about them, however the JOC at Oxford on the motion 737 was not only good, but my instructor was highly experienced and cared about improving you and teaching you to help you in that all important sim ride.......If we ever get that far.
So my advice for you is choose which ever one is more beneficial to you, ie. closer to home or cheaper. If you have a massive budget and dont mind spending the money go to Jetlinx....Full motion 320 and 757 sims. However you would just be wasting money as you have to remember these are not type ratings, and you only scratch the surface of the technical side of the sim.
Well hope this helps and if you need any other info about Oxford just PM me.
Ace
:ok:

[GearDownFlaps]

european are spot on , funnily enough their instructors are also highly experienced and give a rats whats going on, it is also done on full motion sim . I do believe it is also one of the cheapest full motion jobbies around . It may just be a certificate you need but if you are gonna do it do it in a full motion rather than a fnpt11 with a swtiched throttle quadrant its a lot more fun .

[Phenom100]

European have also just reduced the price down to £1,745, it's about time aviation training came down in price.

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[turbine100]

I did the mcc with European and recommend them. They also give you a free hour in the sim with instructor after the mcc if you have a sim ride for a interview.

[acepilotmurdock]

Again I was not saying that the instructors at European were any less qualified,I was merely stating the instructor I had at Oxford was good. In fact I said I had herd nothing but positive things about European. Was asked my opinion and only commented on my experience
Ace

[moggiee]

yeah a big part was that Oxford were doing....and might still be doing the MCC/JOC for 3K. Now my advice to you would be do an MCC as cheaply as possible as it is a hoop which you have to jump through. It doesn't matter if it is done on a 737, airbus or fixed box FNPTII, as long as you get the certificate.
Might I suggest replacing that last word with "right quality of training"?

MCC is not a type rating, nor is it about having a go on the fanciest sim in the world - it is about getting decent training in non-technical skills (human factors, CRM, SOP use, monitoring, supervision, support, challenging and assertiveness etc).

Our sim is fixed base yet is an excellent training tool - advanced enough to stretch you a bit but no so complex that you spend the whole course fiddling with an FMS when you should be concentrating on what the crew and aeroplane are doing. In the past I have conducted MCC courses on more sophisticated devices but have come to the conclusion that with sims for MCC it really is a case of "less is more".

[acepilotmurdock]

Yes...sorry, I stand corrected, it is about the training,which was the point I was trying to make....My Bad! :oh:
Ace

[j_m_pearson]

I did mine at CRM Aviation at Cranfield.

Sim was great and so were the instructors I had. Didnt encounter any problems and learnt a lot! So much attention was spent on the MCC side of the training, it was very idfferent to the Single Pilot stuff you do for your IR and I felt like to really had got to grips with working as a team in a faster aicraft and managing the whole process well.

I got mine with them for £1499, and I think it still is that price. I've also just used my 2 hours free sim time with them that you get after the course - as I have a kinda 'assesment' comming up after Christmas. This was really helpful! They have also told me that from the new year they will also have FNPT II approval for a brand new complex twin simulator and im 'gunna' get a 10% discount on the renewal training and renwal if i choose to do it with them. Bargain!

The only problem I had when i was there was a fault ADF unit, but as the course was mostly about the MCC side of things it really didnt matter too much.

I have also heard good things about OAA at Oxford, but i cant give any info on that. I do know someone who can though if you want to PM me. Think its a little more pricy.

best of luck with the course! Its about getting the most out of it and learning to work in a modern cockpit as a team! Not about fancy moving simulators! Enjoy!

[BA123]

MCC at European Skybus is really good.

3 words, Efficient, Fun and Interesting. No bull**** with them as they are a small operator with a limited amount of students per course unlike other big market training providers.

Your seen as a student not as a walking big cheque :ok: The instructors make it fun because thats what it is supposed to be about. Its not a type rating so enjoy it.

[Rfortes]

Hi Mac636,
I've just finished MCC at CRM Europe. good SIM, all Instructores Ex Airline training Captains...

Word of advise, try to be current in ME operations before starting the course...

Drop me a PM if you need further comments on MCC

[r1flyguy35]

I did my MCC at Eurpoean


Would highly recommend them, very friendly and helpful. I was present when they took someone on from the course as they had just lost a pilot, i was short of their 500hr requirement so was gutted, ha ha

but there you go!

[flyer101]

Hi

I'm just doing some research with a mate here for MCC courses around the South of England.

I have heard good feedback about CRM too and from their website the price seems the same as last year, even now the VAT has gone up.

Can maybe Rfortez or anyone else give further information on this or what the course was like?

Cheers in advance.

[j_m_pearson]

I must be on CRM's mailing list, but have already done my course.

But just for other peoples info I have pasted the email below:

"We have had a student drop out of a course starting this week on Friday 15th due to unforeseen circumstances. (The program is given at the very bottom of this page.)
To fill the gap we are offering the course for just £1,200
Please contact me ASAP if you, or your students are interested in this exceptionally well priced MCC course.
We will make all the necessary arrangements, including accommodation, if required."
might be a good deal for someone wanting a cheap one!

[EI-CON]

I second Irishone above. Simtech are very good, well organised and very professional and not half bad on price either considering its a combined MCC & JOC

[Rfortes]

The reasons I went to CRM instead of European Sky Bus:
1. New SIM, glass cockpit, Warnings showing PFD like on EFIS equipped A/c.
2. Instructors Ex Airline training captains. Lots of experience.
3. Small class (In my course just 2 students). More time to speak with Instructors. Almost 1 to 1 instruction.
4. Price (£1500)

Apart of the recommendation on CRM, I will also recommend to be current before starting MCC. If you decide on CRM and you are not current, speak with them about it. They may allow you to use sim for small fee just for you to be current.

Hope this helps...

[meggriffin]

Beware of Simtech in Dublin, a nasty bunch. Had a friend that a certain Instructor of theirs Mr. S* P**** that used to ring him up and tell him that he needed more and more sim time to brush up for a sim assessment that Mr. S P kept telling him was coming up because he had inside knowledge. Needless to say the guy kept going for the extra sessions but really couldnt afford it. And guess what the assessments never came up!!!

[EGTCtraining]

I second the post above.

The MCC course is all about converting your single pilot flying capabilities (heavily practiced and demonstrated during the CPL and IR) into multi pilot capabilities.

By (to use the Americanism) ‘shooting approaches’, you really don’t achieve the point of the MCC course. I work for a company that delivers MCC training and we base our entire course around the multi-crew environment. Working as a team in airline conditions, using SOPs, interacting with all those involved in a flight from ground staff, to cabin crew whilst dealing with real life routes, and situations on route.

During MCC training the auto-pilot is a fantastic tool; it allows time for crew interaction, planning, PF and PNF communications, systems monitoring and makes the whole experience actually ‘more real’. However what we tend to do, during some of the later simulator sessions is include auto-pilot failures and allow the students to fly the occasional precision and non-precision approach. The first simulator session actually includes general handing too, in order to aid familiarization with the aircraft.

The JOC/JOT is really where full jet handling and hand-flying really takes president over multi-crew operations; it’s not really primary during the MCC.

Although I work for a MCC provider in Cranfield and we pride ourselves on a great course. I have experience of Oxford’s simulator training and from my experience, although vastly more expensive than most, the quality of teaching is more than adequate with some fantastic instructors.

As long as the course is accredited, you’re being delivered a great ‘MCC’ course and the reputation is good – right now I’d base my choice on price!!!

[go around flaps15]

Anything but nasty bunch! Great bunch. "I had a friend who bla bla bla" But where you at Simtech yourself? I suspect not.

[EI-CON]

well said go around flaps 15! :ok: Simtech are very good, professional, well organised and the course is very well laid out and its all hands on flying.

[ford cortina]

EI-CON, and its all hands on flying.

And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Zyox]

EI-CON, Quote:
and its all hands on flying.
And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Well in my opinion I would say it helps amazingly well as both an intro to Multi Crew Co-operation and also, equally as important, as a way to build on your Multi-IR scan technique while you're in a 4x faster jet aircraft.

Both prepare you very well for an assessment, especially if you were to do one in a 737 with the basic 6 instrument set-up - like the majority of newbies find themselves doing right now.

Worked for me anyway. :ok: for Simtech.

[EI-CON]

Couldnt have said it better myself Zyon!! :ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

ford cortina EI-CON,
Quote:
and its all hands on flying.
And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????

That's pretty daft. Sticking in the A/P at 1000' aal and disengaging it at 1000'aal or less may work wonders for your MC skills during your MCC. Big picture, it achieves little as come any sim assessment, your arse will be so far removed from your elbow that the brown side may as well be facing upwards on the AI! Any assessor will be interested in a combined display of handling and crm apptitude. Reserve the finer points of automation for the TR and line flying. When it actually matters!

[go around flaps15]

If you walk into a sim assessment and you dont have a good scan it will be game over. Full stop. End of. You can be the nicest guy or girl in the world, it will matter not.
A basic good scan is essential. When those flight directors are switched off and you have no experience in flying a jet hands on, it is the very thing that will get you through. No where to hide if that basic skill is not there.
To sum up I think its a good thing to incorporate in as much hand flying in an MCC course as possible, without neglecting the CRM element to an unacceptable level in doing so.

[ford cortina]

People, I have already commented on another thread in detail so I will not go into details here.
A Multi Crew Cooperation course, is not about flying a aircraft. It is about working as a team.

I am a line pilot on the 737 and have been there. I have no argument with any of the training organisations mentioned.

To believe that it is all about hand flying without flight directors on is missing the point.

You get 20 hours in the sim, 10 each as PF. then you wait for months for that first interview. You will have forgotten everything about flying a jet. You would be better off having a sim a few days before. If I have a week or two off, it takes me a short time to get into the swing of things and I do this for a living. You may have 10 hours, with failures etc thrown in, so not much real stick and rudder.
However I am talking to a brick wall....
So I am off to work, Italy today. Good luck everyone and I hope to hear you in the sky

FC

[ford cortina]

You should have a very good scan, just after your IR, as long as you do it on steam gauges....

If you wish to improve your scan cheaply, get flight sim and a 737 classic add on, or similar. I found FS and a add on very helpful in my initial Type Rating, helping me to learn start up and the overhead procedures.

[BillieBob]

Sticking in the A/P at 1000' aal and disengaging it at 1000'aal or less may work wonders for your MC skills during your MCC. Big picture, it achieves little as come any sim assessmentThe purpose of an MCC course is not to prepare you for a sim assessment. It is to train you in non-technical skills applicable to the multi-crew environment. Hand flying should be limited to the minimum required to operate the aircraft in a simulated commercial air transport environment.

[Mikehotel152]

I'm with Ford Cortina on this. There is no point in spending vast sums of money on the MCC simply in order to get into a jet FFS.

Any handling skills you learn on the MCC are highly perishable. In 3 months you will have lost them, so it's common-sense to delay spending your hard-earned or borrowed money until you have actually secured an interview! At that point it IS worth spending money on a Sim Assessment Preparation session on the Type on which you will be assessed.

The MCC is a good idea in principle but sadly FTOs have twisted the emphasis of the course in order to make it more marketable to newly licensed, eager and impressionable pilots. Yes, it's more exciting to go from the Seneca you flew on the IR into a 737NG but it's an unnecessary luxury. The course is supposed to be about CRM, not getting a taste for flying glass cockpit jets.

I speak with the benefit of hindsight, having completed an expensive MCC, passed a sim assessment with a major Airline, and passed a 737NG TR in the course of the last 9 months. Given my time again, I would do the MCC at an FTO with a good reputation on a FNPTII or old jet type. I can honestly say that the MCC had NO effect on my ability to get the job.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[EI-CON]

I think what I said about hand flying has been taken up slightly wrong. I agree that an MCC is not a sim check prep and I agree that the main purpose of an MCC should be just that teaching you how to work as a crew.

My point about Simtech is that aswell as teaching you good MCC and how to work as part of a crew another advantage to their course is that its all manuel flying. Simtechs primary aim is to teach you good MCC and they do this very well. A good example was during my course one of my class was getting very into detail on the overhead and the instructor told him his not there to teach him about the overhead his there to teach him MCC.

My point is with Simtech aswell as getting a good MCC you also get the advantage of manuel flying which in turn is an advantage in a sim check. Dont forget your crew co-operation skills are also examined in a sim check. You can go to the sim check and fly the thing like a pro but if you cant interact with the guy or gal beside you or leave him/her out to dry you wont get the job.

I think the reason why so many of Simtechs MCC students are so successful in sim checks is because they have the best of both worlds - a good MCC with lots of hands on flying.

[ford cortina]

I will not debate this, I have made my point.

A good MCC is where you start to learn to work as a team, flying has no bearing on it.

[go around flaps15]

Its nice if its(a little bit of hands on flying) incorported into the MCC as I said without neglecting the CRM aspect if you have an interview shortly after your MCC. Worked out for me. No regrets. Im glad they didn't follow the "rules" and used a little bit of common sense knowing that I was going to have to hand fly it in the Dragons Den shortly after the course. End of. I too have made my point.

[MIKECR]

Well i'll put in a shout for the course at Wolverhampton Flight Centre - thoroughly enjoyed it, pleasant people, very favourable cost, and first class b+b accommodation nearby. A nice pint too at the local pub!

As for the all singing/dancing jet sim that bucks up and down versus a basic FNPT2 - personally I dont think most airlines give two hoots as to what you did the MCC on. Certainly mine didnt. I dont think they even asked, they just made sure I had a certificate...just a tick in the box for them!

[wangus]

My MCC at European was a waste of time. Partner spoke virtually no english. He didn't learn any of the call out / checks. It was single pilot IFR when I was blasting through 800' in the 737-200. No DME calls, no approaching waypoint reminders. 80 knots? What's that??? Positive rate???? Who is he???He even managed to "crash" the aircraft several times on takeoff by applying so much rudder, left, right, left, right, I actually hurt myself against the shoulder harness, a la American A300 in New York. YES, I got loads of hands-on time, single engine ILS, etc. which was fabulous, but as far as the actual "MCC" aspect, utter waste of time. Just ticking another both for the "Campaign Against Aviation."

[moggiee]

Well i'll put in a shout for the course at Wolverhampton Flight Centre - thoroughly enjoyed it, pleasant people, very favourable cost, and first class b+b accommodation nearby. A nice pint too at the local pub!
Thanks for the feedback.

As for the "hands on flying" - the way I do it is that the default position is that we use the autopilot as much as possible in order to allow people to concentrate upon the non-technical skills, which is what the MCC is all about after all. That said, if someone wants to hand fly then I'm happy to let them do that as long as it does NOT interfere with the conduct of the MCC training. If I feel that it is harming the training then I will make them use the autopilot.

In practice, I've found that most people are keen to use the AP if they can because they've rarely had a chance to do so and it's useful experience for them.

[MIKECR]

Your very welcome. The B+B at the Laurels was first class too. I still remember Josie the landlady appearing halfway through a sim session to drop of our packed lunch....bless her, one of life's genuinely nice people.

[moggiee]

You don't get service like that just anywhere.

[tejkang]

hi, i want to do MCC and then JOC in couple of months. what do u advice me. how was ur experience with oxford. is it worth doing both there or just JOC. my plan is to get in to ryanair and as i have heard, OAA follow Ryanair SOP.

any advice wud be appreciated.

[davidbrent]

"It doesn't matter if it is done on a 737, airbus or fixed box FNPTII, as long as you get the certificate."


DONT AGREE

I beleive your aircraft choice to be important, the reason i beleive is: The type of Aircraft you do your MCC on, should roughly correspond to the type of flying or flying job you want to do!!!

if you feel you would like to fly a 737 or short/medium haul jet, then do it on that aircraft

if you feel you would prefer a turboprop type job, why not try one on an FNPT2 modelled on a King Air or something...

Corporate.... Citation etc etc


....this is important, as well as the instruction, as it will carry a style of the sort of flying you might expect on that aircraft.

I know people who struggled and unfortunately did not pass Ryanair selection after being on a fixed-base FNPT sim for their MCC. Perhaps, they did not get a chance to experience the full-scale of the equipment, the sensation of full-motion, simple things like 'knowing what 15 degrees pitch up" feels like etc etc

Whereas people who had done an MCC in a 737, knew roughly, how the aeroplane handled, what it felt like, and where most of the important hardware was around the flightdeck... i personally, and from what other people have told me beleive that this must be of great benefit to THAT selection process....

as i said before, THAT PARTICULAR process and style of flying. Short/Medium Haul Jets.

conversely, i am certain that the opposite would apply if you were going after something smaller, like perhaps a job flying King Airs around Europe of something... a 737 MCC might not be of as much benefit in that case.


Branded MCCs affiliated with a particular Airline, definately have great advantage to them, not only in the quality and content of the instruction and the aircraft type... but you may find you dont have to wait too long to get your interview/assessment with that airline!!!


MCC is more than just a hoop to jump through. Everyday presents a thorough and challenging assessment, and the skills you develop play a massive part in shaping you as both a pilot, and as a manager, due to the decision making and teamwork skills you will develop!



Ciao.