Wearing Uniform in London

[Fareastdriver]

I see that Cameron is promising to double the allowances for service personnel in Afganistan. He is also going to insist that MOD personel wear uniform instead of suits. Are officers now going to be entitled to 1st Class railway tickets commuting to work and back.

[cobaltfrog]

uniform already worn in MOD one day a week by RAF and Officers of field rank have always been entitled to travel 1st Class!!

[vecvechookattack]

I hope he means that Military personnel will be wearing uniform.... I'm not sure that MOD personnel have a uniform.

First class rail tickets are available.... Last time I travelled up to London I went First Class. I'm particularly fond of Virgin upper class when travelling abroad as well....

[Pontius Navigator]

1st class at eye-watering prices. 2.5 hr journey £190. When told my boss only used Standard I said "So?". As I was entitled I insisted. Interestingly the train was over one hour late for I got a 100% refund for half the far :}.

Bargain.

PS,

I got in before the ban and out afterwards. :}

[gijoe]

1st class travel...not at the moment as a result of all-callsigns PUS ban a couple of weeks ago. The need to question any travel at all has also been raised. Meetings can be replaced with VTCs...if you can get access to them

Broken.

:eek:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Having seen the circular this week about travel, pretty sure no one is travelling first class anymore!

[Melchett01]

Well if we're going to be wearing uniform in town, then I do hope that we get a better uniform than the one we currently have that makes us look like RAC repairmen. Or will we be in No 1s?

[163627]

Yes, that’s right all travel is now only at standard rate, which has come as a great shock to some. I was at a meeting on Wednesday with an exulted one from out of town who complained to one and all how they’d had to sit next to someone on the train who “had body odour”; join the real world! As to uniform, yes all military personnel at MoD main now wears uniform on a Wednesday, an exercise that shows just how few actually work there, unless a very large contingent of them are RMP SIB?

[Blighter Pilot]

Fairly sure that QRs and various JSPs say what travel class you are and are not entitled to.

Not sure that a circular will stop all the senior officers from using 1st class rail or business class air passage:mad:

[NutLoose]

Uniform ban for singing servicemen - *Music news, latest news, breaking music news, singers, bands, MSN Music - MSN UK (http://music.uk.msn.com/news/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=151207664)

Re the singing soldiers performing in front of the queen and not being allowed to wear Uniforms..........

[quote][
A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman explained: "When they perform they're earning money.
"Nobody is allowed to use the Queen's uniform for that."/QUOTE]

So remember next time in theatre performing ones job, either do it for nowt or get your kit off LOL :p

[Bunker Mentality]

Why would wearing uniform affect whether you get 1st class travel? Entitlement goes with rank, not clothing.

Uniform aside, the emphasis in MOD - and the 3 Services - is on cutting costs. Even though the functional standard says 1st class rail for sqn ldrs and above, if you insist on it for that reason alone you are likely to be told either not to travel, or to find a cheaper way of doing the journey.

[Jimlad1]

1st class travel is now banned for all MOD staff (mil and civ) except where it can be shown that advance purchases would be cheaper than buying a standard ticket (which bizzarely does happen occasionally if you book a long time in advance).

I think uniform in MB is a good idea, and I know a lot of the CS are very pleased that Wednesday has become "wear your uniform to work day" - the sooner it becomes permanent the better. Then Liam Fox et al might realise that MB is actually dominated by the military and not the CS...

[Mr C Hinecap]

1st class travel is now banned for all MOD staff (mil and civ) except where it can be shown that advance purchases would be cheaper than buying a standard ticket (which bizzarely does happen occasionally if you book a long time in advance).

Perhaps in head office, but certainly not at the other end of the M4. I think some of the civil servants would be more upset about that going than most anything else.

[Jimlad1]

"Perhaps in head office, but certainly not at the other end of the M4. I think some of the civil servants would be more upset about that going than most anything else"

Then perhaps they should be pointed in the direction of PUSs most recent note to all MOD staff about this, which is on the internal homepage. There should be no issue on this.

I think some CS are far too precious about this and wish it would just go - some things are worth fighting for - 1st class travel is not.

[Saintsman]

Given that some may become a target of abuse whilst in uniform, will Cameron also make it an offence to do so?

[SirToppamHat]

It's a difficult one this. QRs is quite clear on entitlements and I doubt very much that anyone can prevent you from applying for entitlements under QRs, but as has been suggested, the current line appears to be go standard, find another way or don't go at all.

Of course the simple answer for those entitled is to offer to go by road as long as the service provides a driver (how many units can do that?) or don't go at all. I know some who will agree to go standard but wait until the last minute to buy tickets deliberately to maximise the cost so as to prove that the measure is as ineffective as possible. Others will always find something 'sensitive' to carry or be working on during the journey, thus justifying the 1st class.

Personally it's a perk I worked bloody hard for, and I am extremely resistant to giving it up.

What's really disingenuous is that this is being pushed by some (SCSs) as a means of focussing limited funds on the priorities (ie kit for the boys), but in fact it will make next to no difference whatsoever, and any money saved will simply be lost in the massive black hole that is the UK economy - no-one has said at any press conference that "the boys and girls will get the kit, but we are going to have to cut out all that 1st class travel etc etc." It's the same as the arguments about the Reds: the £6m PA (or whatever the current figure is) would be better spent on proper boots for Tommy Atkins, when in fact the saving would simply vanish from the MOD pot (or as it currently is, its overdraft!).

As for uniform, the MOD wants people to wear uniform in Main Building (and I have done so), but elements of military are directing that uniform is not to be worn in public for security reasons (most recently in a set of Army orders I saw last week). I am suspicious about almost anything that brought in as a new measure these days - if all the military wore uniform in MOD, would there perchance be a saving in clothing allowance? (Genuine Q, I don't know whether such a thing still exists).

What I am sure of is that anything brought in to save money is here to stay. The MOD is broke, and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

While we're on the subject of money, can anyone tell me why we have to use Hogg Robinson to book accommodation? I know I keep asking on here, but no-one has yet come up with any answer at all, and a booking fee of £5 per person per night on top of a not particularly good rate (sometimes a higher rate) leads me to assume that it's a particularly bad means of doing business.

Sorry about all that. I really do need to go and lie down now.:zzz:

STH

[Herc-u-lease]

Looking on the net for something else I came across this paper:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/management/research/pdf/2008-04.pdf

the paper itself makes for fairly uninteresting reading but the conclusions are interesting. the paper infers that the MOD has already chosen to adopt a policy of economy plus on flights longer than 2.5 hours. I'm not sure how this relates to PUS' travel restrictions (having not seen them) but the change in class of travel may pre-date the current changes.

I'm not contesting we are strapped for cash, but it may well be that policy change was already in progress before the recent embargo.

[ricardian]

As for uniform, the MOD wants people to wear uniform in Main Building (and I have done so), but elements of military are directing that uniform is not to be worn in public for security reasons (most recently in a set of Army orders I saw last week). I am suspicious about almost anything that brought in as a new measure these days - if all the military wore uniform in MOD, would there perchance be a saving in clothing allowance? (Genuine Q, I don't know whether such a thing still exists).
I was in the RAF and was did an 18 month tour at MOD in 1964-65. Wearing of civilian clothes was "optional" and therefore did not attract clothing allowance of about 1s/6d (7.5p) a day.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

STH - it's self drive only now as well, it's in the same circular as no first class rail, no tea and biscuits at meetings, no entertainment etc..

[vecvechookattack]

What about when the RM band appear in public.... they are doing that for money and getting paid for it....

What about when we get collared into standing in front of an aircraft at Farnboro / Paris airshow.... we are in uniform for that and getting paid extra from Mr Westlands....

[miniwafu]

vecvec... really? nice bite though, if it is one.

[Pontius Navigator]

Why would wearing uniform affect whether you get 1st class travel? Entitlement goes with rank, not clothing..

Not quite. The rules used to be that junior officers necessarily travelling in uniform (ie being seen by Joe Public) would travel 1st Class. We were once give 1st class warrants as we were in flying kit and carrying firearms.

We didn't use they though as they managed to lay AT at the last minute.

The other case was if travelling with troops.

[Pontius Navigator]

STH - it's self drive only now as well, it's in the same circular as no first class rail, no tea and biscuits at meetings, no entertainment etc..

But don't forget the 11 hour rule.

Meeting at 10am-12pm travel 3 hrs each way.

Factor in 60 minutes to do DI on hire car, allow time in hand and 20 minute break at 0800 so depart at 0600.

Go to lunch at 1230 - one hour break.

20 minute tea break at 1530. Arrive home at 1650.

But if your day is just 10 minutes longer you will transgress the safe driving rules that you break at your peril! In theory therefore you need a night stop even if in the next village to home. :}

[Jumping_Jack]

...but don't be expected to feed very well in the village night stop! Latest round of 'efficiencies' includes reducing the 'capped actuals' from £27ish to £26ish per day for the 3 meals. So actually taking money from the serviceman now! :=

[Biggus]

Well no doubt it won't be long before somebody says...."if you don't like it, you can always leave".....

Which, if you elect to do, considering almost everyone is predicting some sort of manpower (or should that be personpower?) cuts in MOD strength next year, will no doubt be welcomed by our lords and masters?

[Mr C Hinecap]

But if your day is just 10 minutes longer you will transgress the safe driving rules

Nice try, but you are out of date. I will check, but ISTR that you are allowed 8 hrs driving in a 13 hr duty day once a week now.

[BEagle]

Factor in 60 minutes to do DI on hire car

YGBSM, as they say! Petrol - enough (do remember that diesel is not an officer's fuel!), Oil - OK, Water - OK, lights - OK, tyres - OK. Should take about 5 min max. Then punch destination into GPS and off you go.

And who on Earth needs a 20 min tea break after a mere 2 hours driving having had an hour for lunch immediately beforehand?

[Grabbers]

Self Drive? Only if your vehicle is insured for business use. And Handbrake House have been known to ask for proof before authorising JPA fuel and/or subsistence claims. And no, you can't claim for the increased premiums to upgrade your insurance. MT and driver the way forward. :ok:

[Blacksheep]

I was slightly surprised, when reading an account of the goings on in Bentley Priory during 1940 by an AC1 who manned the communications office. He said that the officers all wore lounge suits, except when going out on staff visits or on "parade" days such as Armistice Day and the King's birthday. Only other ranks wore uniform at Fighter Command HQ. I don't know if that was the norm in other Headquarters or for the other two services. We're talking about active operations here, not day-to-day peacetime paper shuffling.

The movies of course, always show HQs manned by officers suitably clad in number 1's and their airships wearing dress cords. (... and all the WAAFs have their legs on the right way up as well. ;) )

[Tankertrashnav]

Personally I think that civvies should remain the norm in London. We had a thread about sloppy wearing of uniform in public a while back and it was depressing how many thought that hats were optional, mixed dress not a problem and who thought it was ok to do the weekly Tesco's shop in No 1 (hatless of course). Unless there is a return to former standards (getting into full moaning old git mode here) we should stick to civilian clothes.

[Pontius Navigator]

And who on Earth needs a 20 min tea break after a mere 2 hours driving having had an hour for lunch immediately beforehand?

I was of course refering to self-drive HIRE car when MT rules apply including the mandatory 20 minute breaks etc.

As for 11 or 13 hours, these are maximum. The time may be reduced depending on your personal health (it may have been a very early start or a long day the day before) or traffic and weather conditions.

As mentioned, for your own car you will only get the standard mileage rate AND need business insurance. If you try and press the 40p/mile route, certainly over about 100 miles, it will be hire car or bus(t). :}

[BEagle]

'Use in connection with employer's business' doesn't actually cost very much. When I first started working for a civilian employer on a part-time consultancy basis, I checked whether driving to the airport counted as 'use in connection with employer's business' - of course they said it did. By that token using your car to drive to Brize to catch a flight out to the desert sun probably counts the same.... But the insurance company only added a small extra to the premium, so it was worth being honest.

Mileage rates? If you work for any half-decent employer and tell them that it's cheaper than the alternative, they should allow it. Twice this year I've used my own car for 1500 mile trips on the continent rather than leaving it at an airport car park for 2 weeks at a time - and that's also meant I haven't needed a hire car whilst away. Ferry, hotel and mileage all paid for without a murmur - why does the military make such simple things so needlessly complicated?



I hope the 'self drive' MT you get these days is better than the rubbish I remember - such as a Chevette estate with a collapsed driver's seat and a Mini to drive to London with no rear view mirror ("It's on demand, sir....").

[navibrator]

What does PUS' note actually say? I have heard there are travel bans but who originated it and what does it say? All I have is rumour again! Are MPs banned from travel too?

[AdanaKebab]

Letter from PUS and CDS to all staff:
DEPARTMENTAL FINANCIAL POSITION
You will be aware that the Department is facing extremely tough financial times.
There are a number of reasons why the position this year is worse than before -we have recruited more Service personnel than in previous years, and secured Service pay rises above the rate of inflation, a weak sterling exchange rate has a big effect on our budget, we have sold less of our estate in a depressed property market, there has been continued cost growth on some equipment projects. All of this has to be paid for.
The scale of the challenge is such that it cannot be dealt with routinely -either through our regular Planning Rounds or usual in-year financial management action. As a result, the Defence Board and leaders across the Department have had to take a series of tough decisions aimed at bringing our in-year finances back into balance. Many of you will have already felt the impact of some of these.
We have not taken these decisions lightly. In all cases we have aimed to ensure that savings made do not impact on operations in Afghanistan. And we have taken the advice of budget holders to ensure that the measures we take are the least painful of those available both in terms of their outputs and the overall objectives of defence.
But despite the actions taken so far, we are not yet in a position to balance the books for the rest of the year. The Defence Board has decided that it is necessary to take a further package of pan-Defence savings, which have since been endorsed by the Secretary of State.
We need to dig deeper in order to produce greater savings. And we need to apply controls more consistently in the interests of fairness as some areas are currently doing more than others. We are therefore introducing with immediate effect the restrictions on travel, external recruitment and overtime set out in the attachment to this letter, which will apply across the Department to Service and Civilian personnel at all ranks and grades. We have informally consulted the national Trades Unions about them.
We recognise that some of these restrictions might make it harder for you to do your job, and also that some of these measures cut across entitlements. But if we overspend our budget this year, it will make next year even more difficult. The wider economic situation means that we will remain in a difficult financial position for some time to come, and we need to plan for that.
We need to focus our work and resources in line with the direction set out in the Strategy for Defence, and above all on success in Afghanistan, which is the main effort for Defence. Taking these steps, unwelcome though they might be, will help us to do so.
The Defence Board will continue to monitor closely the in-year financial position and review the effect of all saving measures implemented, as well as the prospects for the next financial year. We will keep you informed.
PUS CDS :sad::{:(

[Pontius Navigator]

I hope the 'self drive' MT you get these days is better than the rubbish I remember - such as a Chevette estate with a collapsed driver's seat and a Mini to drive to London with no rear view mirror ("It's on demand, sir....").

There is no self-drive MT any longer. You might be able to 'borrow' a staff car if the incumbent is away or agrees, otherwise it is a hire car. Once catch was the hire car must be returned full of fuel. At least you don't have to wash it.

[SL Hardly-Worthitt]

Travel
All travel should be minimised wherever possible, with use of e-mail, telephone and video conferencing instead.
If travel is necessary, the cheapest/most cost effective available means should be used, and the number of people attending meetings and events from a single area kept to an absolute minimum.
Rail travel should be standard class, not first class. The exception, to be authorised by line managers, is if by booking ahead a first class fare can be obtained for less than the flexible standard fare. Booking standard class tickets ahead of time can be even more economical.
There will be a strong presumption against non-operational overseas travel. Apart from block travel as part of training exercises (where there is an assumption that this will be already planned to be in the most cost effective manner) or entitlements to home to duty travel for people who are temporarily deployed overseas, exceptions will have to be applied for. Any such exceptions, which should be kept to an absolute unavoidable minimum, will require approval, as follows:
- For personnel up to and including 1*, by Command Secretaries and equivalents; or by other 2* officers or civil servants as specifically delegated by TLB Holders for this purpose;
- For 2* and above, by the Top Level Budget Holder; and
- For TLB Holders, Board members and Ministers, by 2nd PUS or VCDS.
There is to be no use of first class for overseas travel. Business class overseas travel will only be permitted for flights of a duration of over 4 hours (or where special dispensation has been agreed in accordance with the exceptions procedure above).
Travel that has already been planned or booked should be re-examined to see if it can be cancelled or the class of travel reduced. Where savings can be made, they should be.

External Recruitment
With immediate effect all external recruitment of civilian staff including agency staff and manpower substitution should cease.
Exemptions should be granted only for posts that are vital to supporting current operations, Business Resilience (including health and safety, security and business continuity), or are otherwise business critical. They will require approval as follows:
- For recruitment to posts below 1* level, by Command Secretaries and equivalents (see list below);
- For posts at 1* and above, by 2nd PUS or VCDS, consulting TLB Holders.
In the case of exceptions made for agency staff, the delegated authorities should satisfy themselves that no suitable person from the local Redeployment Pool could be made available in the required timeframe.
Current external recruitments should be reviewed in light of the above criteria and be put on hold as appropriate unless a point of no return has been reached.

Overtime
Some staff have contracts which require them to work overtime. Apart from this category of employees, all overtime must be explicitly authorised in advance. Command Secretaries and their equivalents will delegate authority to do this as appropriate. Those authorising overtime should be guided by the principles that overtime should generally only be allowed where:
- It is incurred in direct support of current operations and is claimable against the Reserve (i.e. from HM Treasury);
- It is essential for Business Resilience (including health and safety, security and business continuity) or are otherwise business critical;
- Posts demand routinely long hours such that Time Off In Lieu does not represent a realistic alternative because it could not be taken.
In all cases, overtime should be kept to a minimum and scrutinised carefully by line managers, and Time Off In Lieu considered as an alternative wherever possible. However, payment for untaken annual leave will not be made where this results.

Travelling Time
As for overtime, payment of travelling time will only be allowed if authorised explicitly in advance. Command Secretaries and their equivalents will delegate authority to do this as appropriate. In all cases, payment of travelling overtime should be kept to a minimum and scrutinised carefully by line managers, and Time Off In Lieu considered as an alternative wherever possible. However, payment for untaken annual leave will not be made where this results

Entertainment
No new official entertainment should be arranged. Exemptions to this should be sought as follows:
- For cases below 1* level, by Command Secretaries and equivalents;
- For cases at 1* and above, by 2nd PUS or VCDS, consulting TLB Holders.

[BEagle]

All travel should be minimised wherever possible, with use of e-mail, telephone and video conferencing instead.
If travel is necessary, the cheapest/most cost effective available means should be used, and the number of people attending meetings and events from a single area kept to an absolute minimum.
Rail travel should be standard class, not first class. The exception, to be authorised by line managers, is if by booking ahead a first class fare can be obtained for less than the flexible standard fare. Booking standard class tickets ahead of time can be even more economical.


Does the tit who wrote that "We're broke, but this'll hurt you more than it'll hurt me" nonsense know that, in the real world, 'should' is only a recommendation? 'Shall', 'must' or 'are to' are mandatory requirements.

How can there be an exception to a recommendation?

[Once A Brat]

I normally prefer to sit and read the posts on this site rather than post myself, however.....

1. I believe that QRs authorise 1st class travel for all ranks if they are required to wear uniform in the course of their duties.

2. The majority of Service personnel in MB will be commissioned and therefore not entitled to civ clothing allowance since they already get tax relief to buy their working rig......

3. Thought that MOD driving rules were a 12 hr duty day, driving for no more than 9hrs, but able to increase to 10hrs once a week......also must have a 45hr rest period once a week and 8hrs off between shifts......which is actaully in line with Service working time directive as laid down in DIN............I digress, thats another thread for another day!

4. The most galling part of this however is from the unions, whilst the missive signed by 2nd PUS & CDS states that "we have informally agreed this with the unions".....the unions released a statement within about 45 mins, and I paraphrase here, "oh no you haven't, 1st class travel is in the T&Cs for certain grades and we expect that to be respected. If a civil serpent has travel booked not in line with T&Cs then they would be well within their rights to refuse to travel and in this case we would expect no adverse action to be taken against them".....or words to that effect. So once again it will be the Serviceman that bears the brunt of some 'bright' CS idea!

Personally, I'm not sure that hitting T&S is the way forward since it is such a small percentage of our budget and won't dent our deficit, but will upset alot of people, pushing some over the edge to leave - there again perhaps thats the idea.

[Roadster280]

On the business of first class rail travel, why is that provision still enshrined in whichever regulations? This is not the 1920s. Why is it necessary at all?

Changes of ToS are not liked, of course, but if the "free medical care for life in a military hospital" promise I signed up for can be torn up, why not the rail warrants too? One is a damned sight more important than the other, in the general scheme of things, and it is nothing to do with train tickets!

Same goes for lots of other aspects of Service life. Why does the MOD maintain three different scales of Mess & MQ furniture, for example? Officers' dining tables are of a higher grade than Sgts' ones. Surely the most important specifications for a dining table are a) suitability for purpose and b) durability. I'd be hard pressed to understand how a dining table could be differentiated on either ground.

The MOD needs to move with the times.

[Melchett01]

Dear PUS,

With regard to your recent missive, I trust you will approve my reading it home whilst on leave - I have used my own PC and internet connection, thus saving my Parent Unit several pounds in the cost of HTD and electricity. However, whilst I broadly agree that we are broke, and if we had been a civillian company, would have been declared bankrupt months if not years ago (and you most likely barred from entering your name on the list of Company Directors), there are a number of points I would like to seek clarification on.

You will be aware that the Department is facing extremely tough financial times.
We had noticed. Then again, we’ve been noticing this for at least the last 12 or so years, but thanks for finally removing your head from the sand and finally pointing it out to us.

There are a number of reasons why the position this year is worse than before -we have recruited more Service personnel than in previous years, The military recruiting military personnel – please tell me you weren’t surprised by this? Or would you prefer it if we recruited civilians instead and became a PMC? and secured Service pay rises above the rate of inflation, a weak sterling exchange rate has a big effect on our budget, we have sold less of our estate in a depressed property market, there has been continued cost growth on some equipment projects. All of this has to be paid for. If in doubt, blame it on the bankers eh? Well why not, they are to blame for everything else.

The scale of the challenge is such that it cannot be dealt with routinely -either through our regular Planning Rounds or usual in-year financial management action. I wasn’t aware that you actually dealt with financial considerations anyway? I thought you just put on a blindfold, picked a few random capabilities out of a hat for salami slicing and then went to a nice lunch with your chums to discuss which chairs, plasma TVs and modern art work to order for the office. As a result, the Defence Board and leaders across the Department have had to take a series of tough decisions aimed at bringing our in-year finances back into balance. Many of you will have already felt the impact of some of these. They can’t have been that tough – we still have more stars and senior civil servants than we know what to do with.

We have not taken these decisions lightly. In all cases we have aimed to ensure that savings made do not impact on operations in Afghanistan. Just our contingent capability that might just about mean we can defend the Isle of Wight from an invasion by the Isle of Man once we have finished our current adventures. And we have taken the advice of budget holders to ensure that the measures we take are the least painful of those available both in terms of their outputs and the overall objectives of defence. You mean least painful to your attempt to get a directorship once the economy starts looking up.

But despite the actions taken so far, we are not yet in a position to balance the books for the rest of the year. No ****, we’re bankrupt – how is cutting first class travel going to help when standard class is so bloody expensive anyway? The Defence Board has decided that it is necessary to take a further package of pan-Defence savings, which have since been endorsed by the Secretary of State.

We need to dig deeper in order to produce greater savings. Rather you would like US to dig deeper. And we need to apply controls more consistently in the interests of fairness as some areas are currently doing more than others. Can I take it that all personnel across Defence are actually equal? Or are you going to apply these controls in an Orwellian sense of all being equal, just some more equal than others? We are therefore introducing with immediate effect the restrictions on travel, external recruitment and overtime set out in the attachment to this letter, which will apply across the Department to Service and Civilian personnel at all ranks and grades. We have informally consulted the national Trades Unions about them. Who said sod off – it’s in our Ts&Cs and if you do anything to remove our overtime and first class travel, we’re going on strike.

We recognise that some of these restrictions might make it harder for you to do your job, No more than any other hair-brained schemes you have brought in before now and also that some of these measures cut across entitlements. But if we overspend our budget this year, it will make next year even more difficult. So does that mean only one bottle of port with Defence Board lunches? The wider economic situation means that we will remain in a difficult financial position for some time to come, and we need to plan for that. You mean we FINALLY have a plan for something??? Has nobody ever thought of scrapping the J5 role – we never seem to plan for anything, so I’m sure it wouldn’t be missed.We need to focus our work and resources in line with the direction set out in the Strategy for Defence, and above all on success in Afghanistan, which is the main effort for Defence. Taking these steps, unwelcome though they might be, will help us to do so.

The Defence Board will continue to monitor closely the in-year financial position and review the effect of all saving measures implemented, as well as the prospects for the next financial year Whose prospects – Defence’s, ours or yours? We will keep you informed.
PUS CDS

Yours sincerely,

Melchett

[Pete268]

I sometimes wonder wether saving money costs more than to have just spent it anyway.

A recent example (from Tuesday gone), whilst waiting at Kings Cross Railway Station in London, I ran into a chap whom I had not seen for many years (since we were both on basic airman training at RAF Swinderby in the 1980's in fact).

Unlike myself, he had gone on to become one of the great and good of the Commissioned variety, to the effect he is now a Wing Commander. He was travelling on business upto the North East and mentioned he had rather a lot of work to do on the train (unlike myself travelling at leisure).

Imagine my surprise when proceeding down to the train, I boarded in First Class (very cheap discounted 1st class ticket) and expected him to follow. At which point he said sorry but he was having to travel 'Pauper Class'. Upon further conversation it transpired his 'steerage' ticket had cost three times that of my own ticket.

He had known about his journey for about 4 weeks (longer than I had done infact) but with delay from whoever ticket bookings are meant to be made with, he had ended up with a very expensive walk on Standard ticket.

As he said, if had been allowed to book his own journey, he would have been joining me in first, at much less cost to the tax payer, with the ability to work in a quiet environment.

So much for 'Corporate Travel' saving money!

Pete

[x213a]

I dont think cost always comes into it - or always has done. I have previously been refused air travel which worked out cheaper than the rail standard class equivilent. I think it's more to do with satisying one party that they are better than another on preconceptions. If being dragged by your arse from London to Glasgow by a Nissan sunny became a fashionable / suave way to travel then you could bet only Lt and above would get it whilst the other scrotes would have to endure the train!

[BEagle]

Pete268, a good example indeed!

People are often surprised to discover that 'Restricted' Business Class air fares can be a lot cheaper than 'Flexible' Economy Class - particularly if you book them yourself on 't InterWeb.

2 of us once had to travel from UK-Spain for business purposes. I flew BHX-MUC-MAD with Lufthansa, whilst my colleague flew direct from MCR-MAD with baConAir. I flew Business Class, he flew LoCo sub-Economy. My ticket was about €100 less than his!

Last year I was also able to book a 'Z Class' transatlantic price for about €500 less than the best the company travel agent could find....

So yes, a bit of trust and some Internet skills and you can save your employer a whole hill of dosh!

[Jabba_TG12]

External Recruitment
With immediate effect all external recruitment of civilian staff including agency staff and manpower substitution should cease.


Ho ho ho. We'll see how long that lasts.... before legacy systems start grinding to a halt and no-one knows how to fix them. :} Or the only person who knows how to fix them is busy dodging bullets thousands of miles away...

Step forward DSDA, front and centre, for a start, given the plethora of logistics applications written in house prior to the formation of DSDA that MMiT and FLIS arent going to pick up, but that are still in use (and are deemed mission critical by their sponsors)... I wonder how many projects that are at or past Main Gate (and whose outputs are going to become critical in the next 18 months or so and could have pan governmental implications - I can think of one project in particular but cant mention it here) are going to start feeling the pinch...

What was that old saying about the more things change the more they stay the same?? :hmm:

Going to be an interesting 12 months or so methinks.... :E

[26er]

How nice to see you all complaining about first class travel or the lack of it.

I remember a journey from Tern Hill to Leuchars in 1951. I was an Officer Cadet Pilot entitled to first class rail travel and a proper meal cooked in a kitchen and served by an exquisit steward (well, he thought he was). In later years working with my BEA flight manager, and sitting in the sunshine with a couple of our cabin crew having a quiet drink by the Rhine, Graham commented how good it was to have been an APO travelling first class on the Empress of Canada for flying training. He said it was a pleasure to go down the stairs to the dining room for breakfast as the brass work glistened. At which Bill Rimmer, our chief steward, wryly commented in his scouse accent that it was he who had been up half the night polishing it. Quite a few of our Manchester based stewards had worked on the ships from Liverpool before joining BEA.

[Blue Bottle]

Heard before we knocked off that service folks in uniform full time from next year, OR's will then loose Civil Clothing allowance as a saving..happy days

[163627]

Blue Bottle
I do hope you’re wrong, as its bad enough on just one day a week walking through Embankment Gardens and passing the rather sad group dressed in various combinations of dark blue, light blue and green (none wearing a hat!) huddled around the “smoking post”. Not the most positive image they could project to the public as defenders of the realm! Still as we are now heading towards being Belgium with “bombers” do such things matter anymore?:{

[Melchett01]

Heard before we knocked off that service folks in uniform full time from next year, OR's will then loose Civil Clothing allowance as a saving..happy days


So will that be No 1s or that total travesty of an RAC-esque / cheapest bidder No 2 uniform ?

[Pontius Navigator]

On air fares a few years ago I was bought a ticket to Italy for £450. There was a possibility for Mrs PN to come to so I nipped down the the TA and bought her a ticket for £150. Potentially this was going to cause us a problem - different airlines, different times etc - until I discovered I was on the same Alitalia flight.

When I pointed out the difference they said that my £450 ticket was fully flexible and refundable. When I countered that they wee paying a £300 premium against the loss of £150 common sense prevailed!

The trouble is to few people are prepared to use commonsense and do the right thing.

[Melchett01]

The trouble is to few people are prepared to use commonsense and do the right thing.

But that just seems to be something we see across all strands of society these days. About 10 years ago, I had to get from one end of the country to the other with a couple of other guys on my course. We looked at all the options and it boiled down to 2 - fly which would mean us getting door to door before lunch and would cost a total of about £300 in plane tickets, or take the train which would take all day, cost a fortune in allowances, refunds on anything we bought on the train, wasted time etc on top of the £250 / person rail ticket.

Guess which option the Travel Cell said we had to take? Apparently, air travel was not a recognised form of travel. The didn't see the irony in that last statement, but as they and our boss refused point blank to back down, the RAF got a bill in excess of a grand for a days visit rather than a bill for £300.

Seems the lack of common sense / doing the right thing is an institutional thing rather than a new thing.

[Laarbruch72]

its bad enough on just one day a week walking through Embankment Gardens and passing the rather sad group dressed in various combinations of dark blue, light blue and green (none wearing a hat!) huddled around the “smoking post”.
163: You're not allowed to smoke whilst wearing headdress. Never were, never will be.... it's always been hat off before lighting smoke. Did you ever serve at all? (Or did you ever smoke in uniform?!)
I gather it is something to do with wearing the Queen's crown on your titfer... you shouldn't smoke under the Queen's crown.
Someone may be able to furnish you with the exact details.

[Pontius Navigator]

Guess which option the Travel Cell said we had to take?

A secret airbase in Lincolnshire to another secret one in Germany. Options:

1. Fly
2. Ferry
3. Tunnel

Aim: find the cheapest.

1. Ask travel cell - they gave the cost of the air fare but no idea cost of ferry.

2. Ask movements - they gave the cost of the ferry.

3. Asked what about the tunnel?

No idea, the Tunnel is not in the book.

[artyhug]

Picture the scene:

Currently stationed overseas and need to attend a meeting at Northwood at short notice. Already having plans to spend a weekend in London with friends I check the cost of changing my return flight to a Monday evening, a mighty 70 Euros, and that I can do the meeting on a Monday morning.
Check in with the requisite travel cell to tell them how clever I am and that I can save the MoD a fortune.

Oh no sir we can't do that, I'll book you a return air fare on the Monday

350 Euros later and 2 round trips in 72 hrs I got home...

[The B Word]

350 Euros later and 2 round trips in 72 hrs I got home...

Get a GPC and then book it - if it's cheaper than the travel cell then you have passed the "Value For Money" requirement; making savings is what LVP GPC is all about. You still need to get the required permissions in the first place to travel from your 1-star/2-star, though.

[danieloakworth]

Bin the travel cell, and let people make their own bookings (with spending limit) and claim money back.

Btw boys, not all bad news as most of you seem to have knocked off for the year while us civvies might grab 4 days leave over the next 2 weeks.:E

[SirToppamHat]

Of course the reason MOD now has so many 2* and 3* posts (and I include the CS in their number) is because they spend most of their time signing-off travel applications.

GPC is fine in principle, but most unit seem to have layers of people whose sole purpose is to delay, confuse and generally come up with options that are almost, but not quite, entirely inappropriate for what is required.

I know I asked this back on page 1 of this thread, but can ANYBODY PLEASE tell me why the MOD is still booking stuff through Hogg Robinson??? It's absolutely barking, and far from demonstrating that the MOD is serious about financial governance, simply gives the impression that someone, somewhere, is on the make.

STH

[BEagle]

Some years ago, I was told to go from Brize to Ramstein and back for a 'TLP planning conference' as the Spams couldn't just ring us up and ask, it seems...:\

Investigate cost of travel. Drive to airport, flight to Frankfurt, hire car....£LOTS. Very £LOTS, it seems. Drive from home to Chunnel, then on to Ramstein - much cheaper. The Blunt Ones were quite happy with this.

Investigate accommodation. Last bloke just checked the cost of a cheap hotel nearby, Spam chum at Ramstein confirmed they're always full, so that's what I told the Blunt Ones. "No Sir, sorry, but there's a new 'T-letter' about that - we need evidence that there's no room on base".

Drive over to Handbrake House to discuss the issue. "You have to ring Ramstein", they say. So I borrow their phone...as I know that the military systems couldn't (in those days) access Ramstein accommodation office direct, so the cost of the call will go down to Admin Whinge, not the squadron.

Click, buzz, whirr..."This is the Ramstein accommodation office, you are number 12 in the queue, please hold and we will deal with your call as soon as possible......:hmm:". After about 30 minutes, "Sir, no, we have no accommodation, you will need to speak to Wiesbaden." "Can you transfer me?" "Sorry, sir, I can't do that - but the number is ........." Which turns out to be an Autovon number, so another battle to get hold of the Wiesbaden number follows.

Click, buzz, whirr..."This is the Wiesbaden accommodation office, you are number 7 in the queue, please hold and we will deal with your call as soon as possible......:hmm:". Another 20 minutes and finally..."Sir, no, we have no accommodation, you will need accommodation off-base."

So, over an hour of time wasted and a very expensive call to prove what the chap at Ramstein had told me earlier. But it satisfied the Blunt Ones' rules - although they were getting as frustrated as I was.

Now we look at the cost of driving. Their 'shortest route' involved France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany and was only about 30 miles shorter than my proposed route which was all on French / German motorways. 4 countries, each with different currencies and different allowance rates, or just 2 - even the Blunt Ones could see that 4 would be 1771-hell for them, so agreed to my route.

Since the 'conference' was due to finish at mid-day, there was no way I could get home sticking to the 'MT working hours' rules in one day, so they agreed to me staying overnight in an hotel in Rheims on the way back.

All went well; my conference activity involved one phone call to Group, who gave me the answer immediately. This amazed the Spams as they would have needed to wake up some General in the Pentagon, rather than ringing a Sqn Ldr at Group.

Finish conference, off to BX. Then on to Rheims. Reasonable night and a decent meal, then leave at 0830, belt along the motorway to the Chunnel, buy a couple of cases of wine and catch the next train....home by 1330 (1430CET).

Submit F1771 and the Blunt Ones are very appreciative that I'd made their work considerably easier - they had even spoken to the Very Blunt Ones to tell them what a load of cobblers their 'T-letter' was and it was causing considerable difficulty. When the Adminers get going, they can be pretty aggressive when faced by external administrivial bull$hit, it seems!

Even with all the mileage, motorway tolls, the chunnel, 3 nights in 2 hotels and my allowances, the trip was still a couple of hundred cheaper than it would have been using the 'official' method. The Blunt Ones had been very helpful, I'd had some pleasant nights and a useful BX / Duty Free session - a win/win result all round.

BUT that was back in the mid-'90s when we had some very helpful people on base who could - and would - make sensible decisions. No expensive central booking blah, no JPA (which, thank heavens, was long after my time) - and a much higher quality of life.

I get the feeling that travelling to European military conferences is too expensive for the RAF these days - I was at a NATO conference a couple of months ago and although the French, Dutch, Polish, Spanish, Swedish, German and other air forces had all sent representatives, the RAF didn't turn up and the chairman had no idea why......:rolleyes:

[Melchett01]

Btw boys, not all bad news as most of you seem to have knocked off for the year while us civvies might grab 4 days leave over the next 2 weeks

That's because most of us haven't had much leave during the previous 12 months, and bosses are now panicking about having to explain why a lot of their troops have rather large leave balances left and not much time to take it.

I get the feeling that travelling to European military conferences is too expensive for the RAF these days - I was at a NATO conference a couple of months ago and although the French, Dutch, Polish, Spanish, Swedish, German and other air forces had all sent representatives, the RAF didn't turn up and the chairman had no idea why......

I can tell you why having been invited to by NATO and refused by my unit a slot at one of these conferences (directly linked to NATO ISTAR interoperability and thus with a link to current ops). If it isn't going to help the unit and its contribution to the war effort, then it is time, money and manpower wasted. Simples. It's all about Afghanistan now Beags, there's no room for maintaining or developing a contingent or even medium-term capability anymore.

[fcbellio]

I would of saved £17 travelling 1st class last week, but 'was not entitled'.....

[minigundiplomat]

How has a thread on wearing uniform in London descended into 3 pages of rail fares debate?

[Mr C Hinecap]

Oh I don't know how you can complain. I revel in the cut and thrust from BEagle and his outrageous international adventures from days of yore. It makes the current operationally focused work seem so unexciting compared to charging across Europe for conferences and shopping.

Just don't mention MT tho - they don't like MT on this forum :suspect:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Just venturing back to the Thread centreline for a moment, if this rig was worn in London, it’s probable that nobody would notice!

http://www.multicampattern.com/images/Fullsize025.jpg

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | New Afghanistan camouflage design unveiled (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewAfghanistanCamouflageDesignUnveiled.htm)
http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/DefenceIntranet/News/DefenceNews/MOD/NewAfghanistanCamouflageDesignUnveiled.htm

[BEagle]

It makes the current operationally focused work seem so unexciting

Now you be careful counting all your DPM paperclips, you warry little fellow!

[Tankertrashnav]

163: You're not allowed to smoke whilst wearing headdress. Never were, never will be.... it's always been hat off before lighting smoke. Did you ever serve at all? (Or did you ever smoke in uniform?!)
I gather it is something to do with wearing the Queen's crown on your titfer... you shouldn't smoke under the Queen's crown.
Someone may be able to furnish you with the exact details.


Laarbruch 72 - Are you saying that the removal of headdress before going outdoors to have a fag in public makes it ok? Never mind the QRs - I rather think whoever framed that QR (if it actually exists) didn't mean that it could be used as an excuse for slovenly behaviour - which IMO smoking in uniform in public most definitely is. That Queen's crown argument is a complete red herring - if you are in No 1s there is one on each of your buttons.

Totally agree with minigundiplomat - sad to see how travel claims seem to loom larger in many people's minds than how to present a once proud service in the best way to the general public.

[163627]

Laabruch 72

Re your post 51.

I’m sorry if my attempt at humour missed the mark. The point I was trying to make was that the “smoking post” (Richmond Terrace j/w the Embankment Gardens) is right in the public domain and adjacent to some of London’s most iconic sites. For the many passing members of the public to see groups of assorted senior ranks in various states of not particularly smart uniform huddling together in the cold for a nicotine top up does not project a particularly positive image of this country’s armed forces. At the moment it’s only a “problem” one day a week; as the rest of the time they appear to be just run of the mill civil servants. However, if the post from Blue Bottle re uniform is correct and uniform is to be worn every day a few people should perhaps think about changing their habits; hence the “smoking hut” heading. The reference concerning “no hats” was tongue in cheek, as so many people on these forums regularly lament the “hats now optional” attitude adopted by many when out and about in uniform. In the great scheme of events not a significant issue I’ll fully admit. However, after a couple of glasses of good red I thought it worth a punt. If you are one of the individuals concerned, I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. And yes before I got my PFI funded chair I had a proper job.:ok:

[Laarbruch72]

"Laarbruch 72 - Are you saying that the removal of headdress before going outdoors to have a fag in public makes it ok?"
As long as it's in the proper designated area, yes. You don't have much choice these days, as of course there is no smoking allowed indoors. Usually you get a kind of bastardised bus shelter or bike shed. Although I still can't quote which QR applies, I can state that you're not allowed to smoke while wearing headress... I've been pulled up for it a few times many years ago so I had to look it up! :ouch:

163: Yes, I spotted the general humour in the post, I was just trying to be informative as to why the Main Building lot won't be wearing hats when smoking... I wasn't clear on whether you were joking on that particular point.
Merry Christmas all.