STILL THINK THERE ARE JOBS OUTSIDE? [Archive]

trolleydollylover

18th Sep 2001, 00:36

Pete you wearnt that fat arrogant bloke who worked with me in Kenya in Jan were you.

On a serious note, alot of people in lar lar land are struggling right now. If you are thinking of getting out at this time...sit tight. Even jobs in the city are getting tight, buisness has been bad for some time and recent events have made it much worse, people arent changing jobs, be careful.

Pete O'Heater

18th Sep 2001, 11:52

Trollydollylover...

I've never been to Kenya and my reaction to Uncle Peter was merely in response to his insulting final comments!

As for the retention problem being over I think the MOD ought to tread carefully if they are planning on determining future retention 'packages' in response to the recent crisis. It's mystery time for civil and military flying methinks. :)

uncle peter

19th Sep 2001, 00:01

pete - how can someone who opened the thread with an overtly inflammatory post have such delicate sensibilities? to offend or insult was not the intention of the post - merely to throw some tongue in cheek banter back your way.

as it was my mistake as to the proximity of the teddies to the edge of the pram, i must apologise and offer a proper response.

with another flying job to go to, there is no way i would consider recinding my pvr merely because the raf may have better job security. the raf has some major problems at the moment. it is a simple balancing act - on the plus side there is job security, on the negative side there are too many factors i could mention.

yes the aviation industry is suffering at the moment, but for how long? reasons cited for the proposed job losses include increased insurance and security costs coupled with a lack of consumer confidence. ignoring the prospect of recession, this situation can only improve given time.

as regards the city, my sister works as a recruitment consultant for a large financial house - they are still looking for the right people.

things certainly are not as bleak as some would portray.

Pete O'Heater

19th Sep 2001, 10:59

Uncle Peter
Thanks for the reply, hope it works out for you,
Regards........

BEagle

19th Sep 2001, 11:50

Perhaps the only aviation growth area will be in long-range corpoate bizjets. Those companies who wish to avoid any perceived risk in using commercial B777 business class or first class might be able to synchronize travel needs by using a bespoke 'executive' service?

To use the service, individuals would need to invest in 'their' air operator. They could then fly between chosen secure airports with available slots when the need arose rather than tolerating the discomfort of scheduled carriers.

There may well be a presumption against large aircraft by the travelling public; maybe we'll see a return to 707 sized aircraft? I can't see many folk wanting to travel in an A380 anymore, no matter how cheap the seat might be. But on an 100-seater with at least a 38 inch seating pitch....??

Fractional long-range exec jet ownership and more, but smaller, jets instead of the 747/757/767/777 sizes? Plus more 'regional jets' like the EMB 145 from the smaller airports serving short-range needs?.

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

Barryflore

21st Sep 2001, 17:20

Pete is right. The only time it is worth staying in the military is when there are no decent commercial jobs available. Don't worry Pete you will get the chance to use your little green book one day.

Lucifer

21st Sep 2001, 19:11

BEagle, you could re-engine all those VC10s and get them on the commercial market again, plus you can get all the 767s nobody wants any more - if your theory is correct!

Tonkenna

21st Sep 2001, 21:13

Lets just hope that this does not stop any current look at retention, though after the last retention plan we saw how short sighted they could be. Though there is an airline draw down now, I am sure it will get better.

So please, those at the top, don't be short sighted and do nothing. This current poor outlook outside will pass and we will then be in the same position. If nothing is done to keep our own people happy the will again jump as soon as they can.

Just a thought?

Tonks

[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Tonkenna ]

Pete O'Heater

25th Sep 2001, 10:36

Good point, anyone heard rumours regarding the impending pay announcement? :confused:

crab beefer

25th Sep 2001, 18:17

I have to say I am with Beagle.

There will be an increased requirement for small jets and there has already been a warning that Rotary jobs will be on the increase because of more police, internal security jobs aswell as more transit jobs. It will be safer and quicker (maybe already is) to fly office block to office block by rotary pretty much from anywhere to anywhere within the mainland UK if security and booking in gets longer for airline trips. Equally as a result the helicopter trips will cost less (more of them) when airline trips are going to get more expensive (less of them and more expensive security etc).

Those with foresight will get an ATPL (H), just like all the rotary pilots that get ATPL (A)s.

Of course who knows what licence tiltrotor will need (rumour is ATPL (H)). ;)

Captain Kirk

28th Sep 2001, 13:10

Have to agree Tonks,

I think that the RAF has an opportunity to make a real statement about how serious, or otherwise, it takes the retention of its highest calibre professionals. It can:

A. Gleefully rub hands at the short-term prospect of a slowdown in recruitment by the airlines and disappoint again. In 18 months time, the bitterly disappointed will be all the more determined to leave, having seen the value placed in them.

B. Recognize the cyclic nature of the industry and invest in the long term, placing quality of life and welfare at the top of the agenda.

Here's hoping. If you want people to behave in a special way then you must treat them as special people.

FJJP

29th Sep 2001, 10:49

Any truth in the rumour that Binnsworth has received a number of calls from airline chaps asking about the prospect of coming back in? 'Someone' said over 30 Virgin pilots made contact....

[Eddited fer spulling]

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: FJJP ]

Pete O'Heater

29th Sep 2001, 12:14

Anyone taken Gordon Brown into consideration? He's just announced 'drawdown' in public spending. Mind you, the Government ought to think about keeping morale up for all the guys and girls out in Oman (or similar). I agree that this is a test of downwards loyalty for the MOD, the next few months will be interesting (for want of a better word). I understand there are many requests at Innsworth for re-entry to the RAF. How times change! :rolleyes:

Barryflore

29th Sep 2001, 14:02

If the RAF is hiring then there will obviously be a stream of unemployed ex-military pilots who are desperate for work beating a path to the door. They will also have applied to every other two bit outfit on the continent who might possibly offer them a ray of hope in these difficult times. If the powers that be, or anybody else for that matter, interpret this as a vote of confidence in the RAF or a desire to return to military flying then they are sadly mistaken.

Adastral

1st Oct 2001, 01:31

Agree with Tonks and Capt Kirk

I did hear a rumour (this is PPrUNe after all?!!) that the Retention Package was ripped up shortly after the events of 11th September. The powers that be apparantly feel that there is no longer a retention problem!

If this is true, it's another victory for short-term planning and narrow-mindedness. As soon as the airlines turn around there will be an even bigger queue of pilots looking to leave.

Let's hope that they can't be so blinkered?! :confused:

Pete O'Heater

2nd Oct 2001, 21:19

I'm afraid that the news is not good, I hear that many people wishing to rescind their applications to leave are not having their 'hands bitten off' but are being boarded at Innsworth. It seems the tables have turned and that the treasury will call the shots now that the RAF pilot manning crisis is over, albeit in the short term. I reckon the retention package certainly looks unlikely now and that those on the brink of leaving the RAF on the 11th September may well find the ex-military pilot queue at the dole office quite long! It's a shame if all this is true, let's hope someone high up in the MOD can see the common-sense approach. I for one am not holding my breath! :rolleyes:

Flatfish

5th Oct 2001, 02:24

On the retention incentive front, a group of distinguished visitors to an Airstation today indicated that work was ongoing and that the study was awaiting treasury approval. This was in direct response to a question regarding the current airline job market. When pressed, the response was that 'senior officers were not so shortsighted to let recent events affect the retention plans'. Therefore prepare for a large disappointment !!
The most telling comment was that a senior officer was not present as he had been called back for urgent work on the retention review! If our lords and masters get this one wrong then the effects will be disastrous.
As for timescales, expect another incredibly vague signal in Nov to keep us hanging on, but no mention of dosh until Feb 02 at the earliest.

RubiC Cube

5th Oct 2001, 12:11

Rumour Control says that the £10k bonus would be incorporated into the top rate of flying pay, but given the large number of PVRs being withdrawn and the equally large number of inquiries about rejoining, the Treasury have queried whether we have a retention problem. Yes, our senior officers are keen for the problem to be addressed, but are they prepared to fall on their swords when the Treasury wins, as they always do?

Scorpius

5th Oct 2001, 17:00

I have just been speaking to the staish at Waddo - and basically said the same as Flatfish. He also indicated that the powers to be are concerned not to get it wrong this time and that this was an ideal opportunity to ensure we retained the right people. Apparently we are still short of navs! 27 ex-military pilots, was the figure I was quoted, who are pleading to come back in. Binnsworth alledgedly told them to look else where. I feel sorry for the Virgin mate who resigned to work join BA - just to be told that they no longer require his services. On a personal note - the E3D flt cdrs at Waddo would not be welcoming any prodical sons back with open arms or fatted calves!

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Scorpius ]

pshakey

5th Oct 2001, 20:24

Dan Winterland

Yep, it is for now....

I refer the honourable gentleman to my original post.

Next Waypoint

5th Oct 2001, 23:23

Scorpius,

As an ex E3 pilot who now works for the airlines (and there are quite a few of us), I would like to reply on behalf of the "prodical sons".

1. I don't think it's right for you to quote Waddo's CO on this open forum.

2. Your information regarding the Virgin mate who went to BA is completely wrong.

3. My personal experience of Kosovo was that we needed every single experienced captain we would get our hands on at the time. You may well need these guys long before they need you! We could even teach you guys how to fly across the pond without making huge navigational errors!!!!

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Next Waypoint ]

Perky Penguin

6th Oct 2001, 10:52

My information is that some recent FJ retirees are being taken straight back in, so long as they agree to serve a further 3 years. That might be about the time frame for the airline industry to be back up and running.

Norfolk Boy

7th Oct 2001, 01:17

PP, I too had heard that the general concensus from Innsworth was a min 3 years. However, good friend has just been offered a choice of FTR, spec F/L, S/L non-exec Sqn post or S/L desk job for a year with a guarantee of staff college. He's along way off from being made redundant and was just feeling the waters. Said desk officer recommended the FTR as it would allow a 6 week notice period!!!!!!

I really am uncomfortable in a system where a lack of loyalty/commitment or whatever can then be rewarded like the return of the prodigal son. Why should I train to fight with somebody who will leave just as soon as the going gets tough or the outside economy picks up?

I decided long before Sep 11 that I was in for the long haul, and no retention incentive has come my way, but if, god forbid, that somebody decides to return to the armed forces and then becomes eligible for a bonus then Inns can shove it where the sun don't shine, I'll be off.

I fully understand that the Treasury will insist on reviewing the retention proposals, but please, please Air Staffs get them to look further than the next 6 months. There might be temporary relief from the pilot shortage (though I understand that from the 200+ enquiries to Innsworth, nobody has actually returned), but unless long term retention measures are in place then the situation will only be exacerbated.

UnderPowered

7th Oct 2001, 01:30

Pete O'

Chaps at Norfolk fin base say £60 a day flying pay. No other details available.

The Mistress

7th Oct 2001, 01:46

JHC

I'm still here darling. Current working week (including travel time) is a knackering 80+ hours so I've had to prune my Prune time.
I am getting paid for all the extra hours but I'm also making my taxman very rich! It will all be over by Christmas .... hmmm, now where have I heard that one before ;)

Last year I was involved in making 200 people redundant. It was not a fun time - dealing with tearful girls in the loo, indignant men who had been working at the same desk for donkeys years, sorting out final payments, pensions etc. I'm happy to say that most of these people found new employment fairly quickly, but last year was a boom year compared to this. I honestly think things will get much worse towards the end of the year. Losing a job is a lot more than that to some people. It may mean moving to another area, giving up friends and starting all over again. Most people have a belly full of that whilst they're in the Forces and move to the airlines for stability for their families. The immediate future looks pretty bleak, so let's give 'em a break huh guys.

Pete O'Heater

7th Oct 2001, 18:45

UnderPowered...
Thanks for the rumour, is it genereated by 'the boys' or does it have some origin in MOD? From the sound of many replies on this forum there seems to be a 'glimmer of hope' that retention packages may still happen. :rolleyes:

PercyDragon

12th Oct 2001, 18:39

You guys in the military must now have noticed the speed at which the businessmen in the aviation industry reacted to the USA events. Massive job cuts announced within days. This illustrates the true attitude within the corprate sector. Everyone is disposable, instnatly and without appeal. At the merest suggestion of problems then the good old bloodletting takes place. However, this sort of speed of action is unheard of in the military. Before any decisions are made there are endless meetings and focus groups to thrash out the pros and cons. It is for this reason that the military will continue to discuss the 'problems' of retaining aircrew for the next couple of years at least. In fact way after the problem have ceased to exist.
What p***** me off, as tax payer, is that they will no doubt produce enviable packages
to persuade you all to stay on longer....but as a father, to tell the truth I am perfectly happy with that, as my son is flying in the military, even as we speak.

StopStart

12th Oct 2001, 18:48

PD - I think you'd be surprised at how quickly the upper echelons and their financial masters would ditch any retention plans they may have had. As for the actual problem of retention I don't for a moment think that's it's gone away despite recent events.

PS. I'm a taxpayer too thanks very much.

Flatus Veteranus

12th Oct 2001, 21:31

Well, at least we no longer have to wade through pages of "I am leaving next week, when are you? I hear half the guys/gals on xxx Sqn have put in their papers..." type of crap that until very recently stained this site and, indirectly, the RAF. Presumably the carpet-baggers have either left (and some are begging to get back in) and have left the professionals to get on with it.

I should have thought that in the current operational situation, all PVR applications ought to have been binned.

Adastral

13th Oct 2001, 23:23

FV

Whilst I agree that it's a pleasant change not to have the continual moaning, let's not forget that people only, generally, complain when there is something to moan about.

I think I am paid quite well, but the issue is about quality of life. The RAF is overstretched and recent events will only make things worse, not better. Are we likely to see an increase in funding to match the extra commitments? I would be surprised.

At the end of the day, retention measures (whether you like it or not) are the simplest way to get folk to bite the bullet and put up with the hassle. The lack of jobs in the airline industries will only be a tempory glitch - if the MOD gets it wrong again the backlash might not be immediate, but it will happen at some point.

PS - I pay taxes too (40%!!!!), but I also think that I am worth my salt. If they are not going to cure the problems then the least they can do is sweeten the pill!?

cyclic

13th Oct 2001, 23:49

Many of the those who have gone recently have done their time and left at their option. I don't think this makes them disloyal, a bad person or anything else. What I do think is that some people are having a pretty hard time of it at the moment through no fault of their own. Some of the smugness apparent in this thread really is childish; perhaps it comes from those without the courage to leave a comfortable institution?

Flatus Veteranus

14th Oct 2001, 22:13

Adastral

Whinging about pay and the kit - OK.
Leaving at ones option point - OK. PVR, pesumably having amortised one's training costs - OK. But using the Web to talk up defections, hoping thus to pressurise MOD - NOTOK. IMHO it is not officerlike behaviour and comes close to breaching the oath of allegiance.

There was something on the radio this am about the RAF asking reservists to come back in supporting roles during the current emergency. I just dug out my No 1 Blue - a bit musty but it still fits. But my SD hat -Oh sh*t!

soggykitkat

15th Oct 2001, 00:55

Just as a point to note, I for one did the PVR thing and went outside to civilian flying a few years ago thinking it would be the perfect life. As much as we all like to whinge, moan and complain about the RAF, I had to admit that life was not as green outside as I had thought. For all those who seek a civvy flying job, think long and hard before you leave. If the thought of wandering around "anytown" on your own because the remainder of the crew are all sat in their hotel rooms counting their allowances or the same crew who have the potential to fly you into the ground because they simply are not trained as well as those in the mob, then it really is your choice.....but do think long and hard before you hand in the Gen App. It could be that you'd be better suited to staying in and helping to make the changes from within the RAF........

Adastral

15th Oct 2001, 01:44

FV

Totally agree. I am 100% loyal to the service; however, I will not blindly follow with no word of criticism when I see major flaws in the way we are lead.

I cannot abide that we have been cut back to the bone and yet still try and take on more than we are capable of. No-one will say NO because we are either 'can do' people or 'yes men'.

Sadly it seems to be the latter that are going to the top and the former that are taking options or PVRing.

The danger in this situation is that the real power behind the throne, the treasury, will use the down-turn in market forces to fob off the Air force Board and do nothing about the retention crisis.

Yes, there has been a tempory reduction in the number of civilian jobs but we are still undermanned on the frontline and have lost, and will continue to lose, valuable experience.

Innsworth are pushing 60 IPS (In Productive Service) as the golden cow - but that only gets bodies in the front door. You can't (or the treasury apparantly won't) put a price on 1000hrs+ experience.

As we are unlikely to get descent airframes, instant manning and a reduction in the number and intensity of worldwide commitments, then they are going to have to do something to keep that experience in.

Loyalty swings both ways.

Soggykitkat (Where did you think of that one, or shouldn't I ask?)

You are probably right; those of us in should not have too rose tinted a view of life in the outside world. However, none of the guys that that I know have regretted their decision to leave... and their families definately haven't.

Life will be, perhaps always will be, greener on the other side. There is still a chance for the grass to be treated on this side of the fence before it becomes too bitter to swallow.

soggykitkat

15th Oct 2001, 15:26

The soggykitkat comes from my inability to stop smoking......someone said I had the willpower like the breaking strain of a soggy kit-kat.....kinda stuck!

I can only relate to my experiences outside, and I never thought of the RAF as a two way loyalty street, but oh those bloody rose coloured specs!!!!

Thankfully, I managed to rejoin the RAF (now everybody knows who I am!!!!) 2 years ago, and after a glimpse of outside I'm truely glad to be back amongst the fold so to speak, even CCS/GDT is enjoyable nowadays!

My only point was that leaving the service may not be all that you thought. If you want to pay your mortgage off 10 years early but be bug*r*ed about whilst doing so, then outside might be your thing, but if you enjoy flying with true well trained professionals then stay.

Pete O'Heater

19th Oct 2001, 22:06

Have to say I'm totally happy with my lot in the RAF, loads of cash, fun flying, no worries about being sacked and totally content with letting the career-obsessed get on with the paperwork. Also, all my ex RAF mates who are now in the airlines seem thoroughly bored. I guess the 'grass' on my side would be the envy of Wimbledon! :D

Adastral

21st Oct 2001, 15:06

Pete

So you're the one! I knew that someone had to be happy!?!

:D

PercyDragon

22nd Oct 2001, 19:50

Having spent many years on both sides of the Aviation fence I think that the biggest shock when I went into civi life was how narrow minded and boring most civilians are. I think that the reason for this is primarily that most civi aircrew are flying the legal maximum most of the time and they get into 'knackered zombie' mode. As we all would if we were consistently flying 900 hours a year, year in year out.

My lad's now flying helos in the army and I support him 100% but when he talks about coming out I make frantic efforts to stop him.

I actually extarcted myself from flying about 10 years ago...for the simple reason that I felt it was destroying my higher mental functions. I am now running my own financial services business. Not as well paid but a lot more satisfying.

uncle peter

23rd Oct 2001, 01:31

i blinkin knew it - pete, youve got to be a mole. ;)
failing that you either have extreme youth or an extreme resistence to cynicism. either way i hate you for it
:D
best wishes, uncle pete - too old for redemption

ps still pi$$ed off, still going and still got a job to go to (there but for the grace...)

SARBoy Loser

27th Oct 2001, 13:51

I'm still hanging on to my PVR, and yes all my training will be amortized etc. I still belive the RAF has some great jobs and some great careers on offer. Many of my colleges are currently in posts which may have their fair share of paperwork and the like but they love the role they're in. But there comes a time when, if you can't fulfil your own personal goals within the Service you must look elsewhere. Ultimatly it's about being happy, and if your happy with a secure job that pays well but you absolutely hate,then fine, stay in and good luck to you. I've asked for a change in role many times, I guess I'm just not right for the jobs I'd like too do!! :p

Now where's that cup of milky cocoa gone....