Cloud Seeding Cessna 310 Moorabbin 1980's

[Centaurus]

Had a discussion recently about cloud seeding operations in th 1980's using a Cessna 310 from Moorabbin. Does anyone have any more information of that operation such as how long did it go for, what were the various pilot's names, where did they do the seeding, etc

[hung start]

i remember a pressurised navajo in late 70,s , BSF i think .

[Brian Abraham]

Not directly related to your question Centaurus but of historical note, the CSIRO owned and used a 310 (VH-REK) back in the late 1950s for cloud seeding.

Later spent nearly seven years in New Guinea being flown by a Catholic Priest, the late Father JGA Flynn, before being finally relocated at Bankstown.

Was extensively rebuilt in 1994 and acquired by HARS in late 1996. Believe it was the first GA aircraft, as opposed to airline and military, to have approval for IMC operations in Oz.

[Chief galah]

There used to be a C320 (Skyknight) VH-DRK doing survey work in those times, unsure of the cloud seeding though.
It was in a sorry state for a long time in the GAM graveyard at Essendon.
Not sure what happened to it, but it definitely didn't fly out.
As a matter of interest, what was the difference between the 310 and 320,
apart from 10 in case those of you wish to state the bleedin' obvious?

[Peter Fanelli]

I believe the 320 is basically a turbocharged 310. There also appears to be a difference in the side windows.
Don't think there's much more than that.
Probably more fuel in the 320 but don't quote me.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Hi Centaurus

There were 3 C310 rainmakers that I know of; VH-AER, VH-REK and VH-REL.

REK and REL taken at the end of their delivery flight on 5 Dec 57:

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/VH-REK-REL-05DEC57.jpg

At Tamworth with rainmaker Hudson VH-EWR:

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/VH-EWR-REK-REL-02.jpg

VH-AER is preserved by the Moorabbin Air Museum.
VH-REK is preserved by HARS.

C320 VH-DRK was last reported in Denis Beahan's yard at Roma in 2003.

Another lesser-known rainmaker is Beagle 206 VH-UNL which is preserved at the Queensland Air Museum.

Rgds

[Dog One]

Par Avion from Hobart had a PA31P VH-BSF based at MB for that contract. I think the resident pilot was Lance Scott.

REL did a contract in Hobart about '64 or '65. Mike Hunt was the pilot. Remember seeing it on lake Pedder beach around that time.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Dog One

Say again pilot's name.

Rgds

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Slight Drift.....

I remember one of the 310's doing a 'wheels up' on the grass at Mascot.
Can't remember the date.

It was planned, in that the pilot did fly around and use up fuel, then made the approach, stopped both engines, and used the starter motor to align both of the 2 bladed props in the horizontal position - thus minimising the engine damage.

SMH of the day gave praise all round and reported the airframe damage to be minimal.
Sounds like a job 'well done'..??:ok::ok:

p.s. Tch tch.... Mr Frisbie....:}

[Tmbstory]

Centaurus:

Not sure about the 1980's but in 1966 and 1967 I did a lot of flying on cloud seeding in Cessna 310's, VH-TTM, VH-AER and VH-RLY. It was done for the CSIRO and we operated mainly from Dubbo, meeting the weather fronts out at the South Australian / New South Wales border and if they were suitable, then we would seed them until the front left the New South Wales Pacific coast. If weather came in from either the North or South we would do the same thing.

It was good for the IF training and Ice handling.

Tmb

[Tmbstory]

EX FSO GRIFFO:

I do not know who to or when this happened but I do recall people in my younger days talking about such an incident.

My own incident at Mascot was in November 1965 and had to land with a magnetometer "Bomb" trailing behind and below the aircraft. It closed the airport for a time.

Tmb

[By George]

Bill Surh of Peninsular Air Services owned VH-REL in the late sixties and early seventies at Moorabbin. 'REL' was indeed an ex cloud-seeder and he also, later,(1970?) had a contract with the CSIRO for seeding, using a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO an ex Conellan machine. Very little use was made of it in the cloud-seeding mode. I cannot remember why. The 310B was a totally different animal to later 310s' especially the 'Q' onwards, but great fun to fly, very light in roll. I saw 'REL' in Hamilton in the early eighties while visiting the Ansett Museum. The pilots for the CSIRO contract were Bill himself and John Fleming. Sadly both were subsequently killed in aircraft accidents. 'CLO' was painted two-tone blue with the CSIRO badge on the rear fuselage and fin. After the contract ended the aircraft was painted in a yellow scheme and ended its days on the Cairns fire dump.

[Parrow200]

By George, you may well be correct. C310 VH-REL I believe was derelict in a paddock west of Branxholme Vic (sth of HML) in late '80's having been owned by a now former local identity, Tom Francis (previous owner of PA24-400 PYM among others). Don't know of circumstances now.

[oicur12]

Ahhh eighties GA in EN/MB. Such memories.

the C320 was a larger cabin than the 310.....I think. Certainly different windows. I remember the green DRK lurking around EN.

And another green machine. A navajo from out west, WBL I think. Was it SOW?

Skybird back then was kind of a central point for a lot of EN GA and certainly turboprops and jets. Anyone remember N133LE commonly known as nibble? CIII I think it was.

[ZEEBEE]

Bill Surh of Peninsular Air Services owned VH-REL in the late sixties and early seventies at Moorabbin. 'REL' was indeed an ex cloud-seeder and he also, later,(1970?) had a contract with the CSIRO for seeding, using a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO an ex Conellan machine. Very little use was made of it in the cloud-seeding mode. I cannot remember why.

I think from memory that the reason that CLO wasn't used much was because it was either being fixed or flying to and from being fixed.

Bit of a "cursed" aircraft.

[By George]

VH-REL was my first twin endorsement and it's interesting to compare how we use to fly them. I was reading on another thread about a member looking for a Navajo checklist. We just started the engines, used "TEMPFSCH" and took off. I hired a light twin last month, when home on leave, and the checklist was like something out of the Space Shuttle. In regards to the ferry of 'REL' and 'REK' from the States I think Gordon Howe was one of the pilots.

[boofhead]

C320 was a turbo charged version of the C310. Then Cessna made all the series turbo charged which made the C320 redundant and it went out of production.
There were differences in the windows and also in the position of the rear bulkhead which changed the available cabin volume a little, but usually the changes were available in either model.
The external dimensions (span, length etc) were the same for each model.
I fly both at present and even though they are identical in external size, it is easy to be fooled when looking at the cabin. One has a ski tube but has the bulkhead further forward, one has a higher cabin roof over the pilot station, one has a two piece windscreen etc. One has a takeoff weight of 5670lb and the other is 5300 lb, but the useful load is about the same.
What I like about the C320 is that it has 285hp engines and is very quiet. It flies to about 25,000 feet and burns 32 gph while the C310 has 325 hp RAMs and can go higher (30,000 feet?) burning 36 gph but is so noisy it drives me mad after a few hours, even with a noise-cancelling headset.
Both are really fun to fly, and can be operated out of 3000 feet gravel strips safely, with good single engine performance if required. If you don't worry about engine failure, they can fly out of 2000 feet strips, although I usually use flap then, and pull them into the air early to avoid prop damage from rocks.
And if you have flown either, you already know the cabin heaters will have stopped working long before you reach 25,000 feet.
Parts are hard to get and expensive. We have not had the spars done, but I think all the ones in Aus have been modified?
If you get a chance to fly one, go for it. I guarantee you will love it.

[601]

Civil Flying Services had a contact for cloud seeding in 1969 over Victoria using Beech Barons. They also had a tip tanked Bonanza at Roma.

[205jack]

Seem to remember a pilot by the name of Ray Samson? from Cobar NSW doing cloud seeding back in the 70's in a 310 FYW. Anybody else that can confirm this

[spirax]

Civil Flying Services had a contact for cloud seeding in 1969 over Victoria using Beech Barons. They also had a tip tanked Bonanza at Roma.

Correct re the Baron.

CFJ was one and there was one other, but cant recall the rego. CFJ was I recall, BIB at one stage when Bib Stillwell owned Civil. He later put that rego on his Lear.

Peter Bini did a fair bit of cloud seeding in the Baron out Nhill way for a few seasons. Barry ?? was another regular then... He later went to Civils in WA as did the Baron. And I think it was a bit earlier than '69. Maybe 67??

Yes, those days at MB were great.. nothing like today (sadly)

[601]

CFJ, a Beech 55, was the aeroplane Civil used to do instrument rating training in. I remember Jock, Peter, Ian and Russ were there in Sept 1969.

At that time there was another Baron away in western Victoria doing cloud seeding.

I noticed I did circuits at MB at night in Sept using flares. We had to call the flight off after 30 minutes as the flares were being blown out by the south-westerly.

I don't know if CFJ did any cloud seeding although it was well equipped for flight in icing conditions.

[Blue Sky Baron]

I believe my Baron, VH-CFA was also involved in cloud seeding operations, I think based out of Horsham. Someone told me this once but cannot confirm it??

BSB

[spirax]

BSB... I think you may be correct. Have a look at the log books around the late '60's' to see if there is any mention of the mod to put the gear on/off, at the wing tips. May not be sign on the a/c any more?? I was around Civil at that time and sure there was one other than CFJ.

[601]

VH-CFA

That was the other Baron.
CFJ was a B95-B55 (260hp) and CFA was a B95-C55 (285hp).

[Blue Sky Baron]

Spirax and 601,

When I purchased her the log books were "missing" but could be found for cash. We started with fresh logbooks so I don't have any of her history.
I met a guy once who flew her in WA in the early days and also seem to recall a conversation with someone about her time at Horsham. Any further info that you could enlighten me with would be appreciated, just to know some of the things she has done. With over 10,000 hours in the air she must have had some wonderful adventures.

BSB

[601]

BSB

MB was a strange dark and foreboding place where we learnt to control a Frasca before getting into a Baron. I did not have anything to do with CFA as I believe it was away cloud seeding. I was VFR S/E Commercial Pilot, flying a Baron and cloud seeding was way out of my league.

CFJ was used for Civil's instrument training. Had this all singing all dancing HSI :cool: After flying C150, C182 and C205s, this was the bees knees.

One memorable incident happened one cold night at CFS. There was a line of Musketeers? on the apron. A pilot was going to do some night circuits and was checking the fuel by dipping his hand into the fuel tank to feel the fuel.

As the night was cold and humid, the fuel did not evaporate so he did not feel the coolness on his hand as the fuel evaporated. He then lit a match to visually check the fuel:eek:

Of course the fuel on his hand caught fire and he shook it to put it out only to ignite the fuel in the tank. No explosion, just this 3" round column of flame about 8" high. All he had to do was put the cap back on.

There was pandemonium in the office. The tower was notified to sent the fire service.

The hangar doors were closed. To get the extinguishers one had to run to the back of the office, into the hanger, run to the front of the hanger where the extinguishers were kept and repeat the reverse journey.

The rest is history. No planes were damaged, but lessons were learnt.

[On eyre]

Checked my logbook and as a trainee cloud seeding officer I flew in CFJ Beech B55 flown by Neate out of Adelaide, CFR Beech C55 flown by Borthwick out of Horsham and RLY Cessna 310 flown by Hill out of Horsham in 1968. A great experience for a newbie SPL with about 3 hours at the time. Not to mention duck shooting from a Beaver flown by Mustachis south of Horsham on fine days not suitable for cloud seeding!

[Fris B. Fairing]

BSB

I don't know if it's relevant but I found the following reference in an article written for the AHSA Journal by Barry Tate:

During the late 1960s in Western Australia Civil Flying Services provided two Beech Barons, on contract to the WA Forestry Department, for controlled aerial burning of the forests of Manjimup area south of Perth.

The article is illustrated with photos of VH-CFG but unfortunately the other Baron is not identified.

Rgds

[WTFIGO]

Ah, the memories are flooding back after looking at this thread. I did some cloud seeding with Maslings 67-68 in 310 WRG and 320 FJW which had belonged to Fletcher Jones of clothing fame. Had a very pleasant couple of weeks flying FJW out of Hobart as a backup to the East West Twotter. After Maslings I flew for Civil (Moorabbin) mainly on cloud-seeding and the aircraft we used were CFB, CFR and CFS, all C55 Barons and CFJ which as someone mentioned was a B55 with all the bells and whistles. I operated it out of Adelaide in the latter half of 1968 and with all that gear and the small engines it didn't take too much ice to send you towards terra-firma. CFS was the only one fitted with radar but that didn't stop one of the guys having a nasty encounter with a hail-storm one day out near Eildon. Lots of damage.
I flew out of Horsham for six months in 1969 initially with CFS then CFB. CFR was operating out of Mt Gambier at the same time mainly with Russ Thompson and Doug Krause. I don't remember seeing CFA used for cloud-seeding in Victoria but it may have after I left in early 70 as well as in WA. CFB seems to spend most of its days sitting at Murwillumbah lately.
C310B TTM was also mentioned on this thread; I never flew it while I was with Maslings but later flew it for the would-be third airline Jetair out of Eagle Farm as well as the also mentioned Twin Bonanza CLO which was a bucket of bolts way back then (1970).
I'm surprised Fantome hasn't appeared here yet as he spent a lot of his youth playing with clouds and aeroplanes. Another great guy involved in the cloud-seeding with Maslings was Lane Morrow, a Yankee import. Unfortunately he passed away in early 2004.
My first encounter with cloud-seeding was about 1964-5 in Wagga when the CSIRO were operating REK and REL from there with the legendary Chris Braund being one of the pilots.

[Fantome]

The 310s that Maslings of Cootamundra had cloud-seeding included -

VH-AER, VH-REK, VH-WRG, VH-TTM, VH-GBC (subsequently privately owned, broke up in a Cb, Broken Hill to Mildura), VH-RLY (destroyed in Coota hangar fire) and C320 VH-FJW, ( crashed fatally Warwick Farm, NSW. Originally owned by Fletcher Jones, Warnambool, hence FJW.)

The bases for these ops (all designated drought relief) were Wagga, Cobar, Dubbo and Horsham. For a brief period in 1968 AER was contracted to the Department of the Interior in Canberra for seeding over the Cotter catchment due to the severity of the drought affecting Canberra's water supply. The officer from the CSIRO who ran this job was Arthur Tapp, a Second World War nav in Bomber Command and the nav for the trans-Pacific ferry of REK and REL. (Arto was also as funny as a hat full of bums.)

The Beagle 206 VH-UNL was certainly contracted by Western Air Navigation, Eagle Farm, to the Queensland Government in 1969-70 for drought relief. Dubbed by some 'Winston Spencer Beagle', she was a bit of a dog when loaded to the hilt but on the other hand, on the controls, beautifully harmonised. A superb pilot's aeroplane, with outstanding outlook from behind the huge clear canopy/windscreen. Configured as an eight place, the rear two 'hunchback midget' seats featured a fairly low roof line.

[Tmbstory]

WTFIGO:

You mentioned Chris Braund, I think one of the others was GM.

Tmb

[Fantome]

Chris, George, both joined the great celestial holding pattern a good while ago. Characters of a kind now in short supply. Both cut teeth in the RAF in Europe and North Africa. Both perpetual boys at heart. Many Chris anecdotes in 'Laughter in the Sky', put out by Jim Thorne. George ones not so accessible.

Do recall him sneaking up behind a 150 over Katoomba and imitating machine gun on the RT and then barrel rolling his 310 in front of the 150.

An ex QF, George Rickey, did a brief stint with Masoes. Also a character.
Like to know where he is. Similarly Ray Smythe, ex TAA, flew VH-MIN on the BMR survey contract. Native of Kempsey. (Knew how to put it way, prior to joining AA).

[Tmbstory]

Fantome:

Talking about George I remember a time that two rain making Cessna 310's did a fly past/over the Anzac Parade at Dubbo on Anzac day.

Not sure how it looked from the ground but from the air, it was spectactular, line astern, I was flying the rear C310.

Tmb

[Wunwing]

For the record.
VH-REK is not just preserved by HARS,it is operational and has recently completed the full Cessna aging aircraft inspection.
Wunwing

[Fantome]

Any word about on either's whereabouts? Heard recently from Ron Roberts (ex QF 747 skipper who started on the Cats) that George blotted his copy book seriously on a 707 command check at Avalon with checkie Eric ? in right seat when George lent across on downwind and said 'Dangle the Dunlops daddio.' In addition to that I recall George recounting during his brief time at Maslings '67 or '68 that he'd made a few unwise remarks to his check captain at turn in time in the pub at Geelong, probably that same day. Ray came from Kempsey and was based at Goulburn with Maslings on their Reg 203 services with C402 same era. (Also had a nasty run in with the management)

[skipper1981]

I remember Ray samson from Cobar involved in cloud seeding.Later in the 80's,Ray operated a C310 from his Cobar property on charter.Ray later died suddenly from a bee sting.Apparently he was allergic to bees.

[43Inches]

I have heard that there is film footage of some of Civils ops regarding cloud seeding and incendiary dropping for controlled burns from CSIRO archives from the 60's or 70's. Another bit of film that may be interesting is an add for the Ford Mustang involving a Bonanza around the same time, may have been Civil also.

[arrowjock]

C310, VH-WRG eventually came to grief - fell out of the sky in bits after losing an argument with a thunderstorm in 1974. Investigation put it down to pilot inexperience on type and lack of recency.

[Dora-9]

Gents, I've only just discovered this posting!

I flew for CFS in WA from 1966 to 1970. Looking at my log book, it shows cloud-seeding operations out of Perth in 1967 in 95-B55 VH-CFJ and the following year out of Meekatharra (a real punishment posting that one) in 95-C55 CFB.

CFB (formerly BIB) certainly had all the bells and whistles; the only downside I recall was that as it had generators (not alternators) it was possible to flatten the batteries with the engines idling and everything turned on - as I found out to my embarrassment once.

Fris B. Fairing - the firebombing ops were conducted in 1969, operating mainly out of Manjimup. The aircraft used were 95-C55 CFG (as you said) and 95-B55 CFO. Barry Tate and I were often involved in this (another punishment posting!)!

[Adsie]

I am aware of a pilot who used to cloud seed over Wagga in 1968 in a C310

[Fantome]

A correction to post #30 here. It was VH-WRG that broke up in flight, not VH-GBC. It may not have any relevance, but it was noted some five years prior to the accident, by a cloud seeding officer at Cobar, that the left horizontal tailplane, when viewed from the rear along the extended centreline of the fuselage, appeared to have about ten degrees anhedral, instead of being dead horizontal, as was the right hand tailplane of WRG.

Twenty years after the accident, a stockman on Wilkurra Station picked up a
metal bound logbook or manual not far from the crash site.

If memory serves me right, WRG stood for West Riding Geoffrey, a combination of West Riding Pastoral Company (at Springdale in the Temora district), and the given name of the one time owner of WRG.

[Dora-9]

Fantome!

Wasn't REK flying out of Perth in the late 1960's (not as a cloud-seeder, obviously)?

[By George]

I flew VH-REL in the early seventies for Bill Surh. What ever happened to that aircraft? So different to later 310's, especially the 'R' models it should have been a separate endorsement.
I have a picture somewhere of REL and REK over the Sydney Harbor Bridge. I think it might have been on the delivery flight. If my memory serves me correctly, I think Gordon Howe was one of the pilots. Bill eventually had a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO on the CSIRO cloud seeding contract. I flew that too with three across the front seat and funny 'ash tray' type switches.
Bill was killed in VH-RED, Gordon long gone. Time marches on.
How can that be over forty years ago? I also wonder why nobody does this kind of work anymore.

[PLovett]

How can that be over forty years ago? I also wonder why nobody does this kind of work anymore.

T'was a Conquest doing cloud seeding work in Tassie last year or perhaps year before.

[aroa]

As in Cessna 320 "Skynight" of Southbank Aviation, Albion Park.
AFAIK was only ever a mapping camera ship. Spent considerable time in it late 60s and cross hired from MEB, late 80s

I can concur re the heater, after 3 hours at FL 250 over Adaminaby in the Snowy Mtns in the winter, the guys upfront were cooking and down the back I was suffering from frosticles.!!

[pithblot]

Cloud seeding in Tasmania was done at one stage in a local Mojave or a P Navajo. The contract went to Kevron Aerial Surveys, I think in the late 90s, and they used a Cessna Conquest. I don't remember the registration, but I do remember the fuss from Strahan/Queenstown residents who wanted to suit Hydro Tas for scaring away people with the extra rain and aledgedly ruining the tourism industry.

Was VH-FJW, a C320, used for survey?

[Fris B. Fairing]

REL and REK over the Sydney Harbor Bridge

By George, see post #6 for said photo.

There was a Conquest on a cloud-seeding contract in SEQ a few years ago. The local paper quoted a memorable line from the pilot; "We fly into weather that other pilots try to avoid and then we set ourselves on fire".

[By George]

Ah ha thanks Chris, my photograph is different but obviously taken on the same day. Also there is a previous post from me on seeing REL at Hamilton, I forgot about that, is it still there?


I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes now. Second generation in more ways than one I guess.
Good to see cloud seeding still going on. The thought of flying over the ex wife's house and making it rain is quite appealing.

[Hailstop3]

The cloud seeding in Tassie still goes on to this day. Last I heard Fugro had the contract using acetone burner type setups on a Conquest.
Cloud seeding | Hydro Tasmania (http://www.hydro.com.au/water/cloud-seeding)

As for the SEQ seeding, it was done in the summer of 2007-08 with a PA31T from Weather Modification Inc (google it for info, American company from North Dakota), in conjuction with South African atmospheric scientists and meteorologists who used an AC690 for research runs. It was a Qld Govt funded exercise to see if rainfall could be redirected to fall in the dam catchment as at the time, the dam levels were under 20% and all the rainfall was falling on Brisbane, but not within the catchment. Not long after/during the program, the drought broke itself and the dams were full again and the rest is history.

I personally haven't cloud seeded in Australia, but I did work in Saudi Arabia flying C90s on Rain enhancement programs from 2008-2010 with Weather Modification Inc. and in Canada in the 2009 and 2010 seasons on Hail Suppression missions. The most amazing, interesting and challenging flying I have done to date. I think I may be one of the few pilots in Australia to fly into an LP Supercell on purpose, which I think is a little bit cool. Some may call it stupid, but to you King Air pilots out there, I can assure you those aircraft are built like a brick ****house in the wing department.

Supercell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercell#Low_Precipitation_.28LP.29)

This is what an LP Supercell looks like up close.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/marcuste/DSC_0069.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/marcuste/media/DSC_0069.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/marcuste/DSC_0080-1.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/marcuste/media/DSC_0080-1.jpg.html)

Most top seeding missions (using ejectable AgI flares) would consist of many penetrations into the 'feeder cells', the crisp popcorn looking part of the main cell where the growth occurs. This was to deliver the seeding agent directly into the updrafts of the cell.
On this particular LP supercell, we made one penetration and got pounded so violently, it is indescribable, only to say it is severe turbulence in the true sense of the word and like a mule is kicking your seat constantly. This was done in the very early stages of its growth so we were not aware what it was going to develop into, and therefore had no idea it would be so violent inside, it looked like any other storm cell we had seeded before, just more bold and crisp in dimension. About 1 hour later we heard more about the cell when our ground meteorologists were saying that it was the coolest cell they had seen in 15 years of weather mod and then told us what it had become. We didn't make any other penetrations on that cell and seeded it completely from clear air just banking the aircraft belly against the side of the cloud and shooting in the seeding agent from there.
This is a project on the east side of the Canadian Rockies in the Calgary-Red Deer area, and is funded 100% by insurance companies to reduce the number of claims due to hail damage each season. It is still the only wholly privately funded cloud seeding project on the planet.

Sorry to blab on and that it is a slight thread drift, but there is very few pilots who even know what cloud seeding is let alone ones I can fully share my experiences with.

[Dora-9]

Hailstop:

Great photos! Enjoyed your descriptions too, I'd hardly call it "blabbing on".

My recollections of cloud seeding in WA in the late 60's would indicate we used quite different procedures. Winter seeding out of Perth comprised of flying around in the +2/-2C temperature range in cloud, burning silver-iodide (?) out of burners slung under the wings. This was in a B55 (VH-CFJ, the former VH-BIB) with full airframe/prop de-icing but no radar. If nothing else it taught me a lot about instrument flying and operating in icing conditions (and also just how strong a Baron airframe was).

There was also a summer seeding programme out of Meekatharra in a C55 (VH-CFG), a real "punishment posting" if ever there was one. The theory was that you'd find a towering Cu or Cb and fly (and seed) under the base; of course weeks would pass without actually seeing any cloud of any form! Meekatharra itself was a dump, the hotel was dreadful (no air-conditioning for us), the rest of my crew (2 of 3 "Cloud Seeding Officers" employed by the State Government) were constantly bickering amongst themselves and there was little to do. I ended up inventing excuses to go flying just to relieve the tedium.

[Bravo Romeo Alpha]

Regarding the wheels up landing by REL or REK at SY, I was the Surface Movement Controller in Sydney Tower when this occurred - in 1961 or 1962. It happened much as described. The only "damage" was scratches on the underside of the engine cowls. When the fuss was over a crane went out on the grass area to raise the aircraft, the gear was successfully lowered and locked, the engines were started and the aircraft was taxied to the apron. I think the pilots name was George Martin?


A few years later I was a controller in Canberra when the same pilot in REK or REL diverted there at night following an engine failure after cloud seeding. He only just made it and when I spoke with him later he said it was far more frightening than the wheels up at SY.

[Fantome]

REK in the west in the late 60s? Probably not Dora

We had REK at Cobar 1967-68 when Masling owned and
operated her for cloud-seeding for the NSW Dept of Agriculture
on drought relief.

First saw REK and REL at Canberra in 1959. They
were in company with an RAAF Dakota fitted out for
cloud physics research . Fris B F. would know whether that Dak became
VH-RRA that the CSIRO had on strength for a number of years.

In 1977 the late Ian Walker and I had a month in Mildura with
RRA doing CSIRO flights sampling the insides of clouds.

The late Arto Tapp was with the boffins. Arto was a nav on Lancs
in the war. He navigated REK and REL across the pacific
on the delivery flight, doing a bit of astro on the way. In Mildura, we spent more time on the golf course and in the pub than in the air.

The late George Martin, who had many a tale of train-busting
in Typhoons, was a memorable character, still reliving his war in the air. In the 310 heading west over Katoomba, he spied an aero club 172 up ahead.
On board was an instructor who had been in the air force too in the war.
Anyway George closes on the 172 , dives a bit then pulls up and around in a barrel roll while going tat a tat tat into his mic.

George had a good mate, Keith Fitton, I think. Keith wanted to write
the biography of George, but it probably never got past chapter one.
Last job George had was a beach inspector at Cronulla. One day he
was remonstrating with a young woman who persisted in riding
her horse where she should not have. George came up too close
to the animal which reared up, coming down with the result George was
badly hurt. He did not recover from his injuries. RIP came not long after the incident on the beach.

p.s. Arto Tapp also crewed Masling's C310 VH-AER on drought relief for the A.C.T. Department of the Interior in February-March 1968, based Canberra. We had a number of memorable sorties seeding in stratus at minus 10 OAT. Heater failure was not unknown for us either. Arto was training up a young fella from BOM . We had a pretty rough descent the day Arto sent this bloke off on his first go unsupervised. Can still see the shreds of his breakfast hanging off the post lights .

Thinking of which savoury topic . . . also unforgettable was the young German sitting in the right seat of the Chieftain VH-TAS on a very rough descent into Launie. He held onto it and held onto to it. But.. .. as we rolled out on 32 after touch down, from the corners of his mouth, still closed clam like, there trickled what had to escape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes nowBy George , you're right there. One though that has been retained for many a year is VH-REM . Heard it over the air
gliding round Boonah not long ago, a real blast from the past. It was a Mooney for sure that joined the circuit. I noted from overhead the hangar it disappeared into. AN hour later went over for a sticky beak. Through the hangar door cracked a foot open, there she was. . . . with her name still neatly painted on the cowling in flowing cursive script. . . . .. .SUGARBIRD LADY.
Those who may be wondering . . .. . . check out the two books of Robyn Miller. . . .. 'Flying Nurse' and 'Sugarbird Lady'.

Needless to say. . . this one on a pole at Jandakot was not Robyn's

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/The_Sugar_Bird_Memorial_plane_at_Jandakot_Airport.jpg/350px-The_Sugar_Bird_Memorial_plane_at_Jandakot_Airport.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Sugar_Bird_Memorial_plane_at_Jandakot_Airport.jpg)

[Dora-9]

Fantome:

Aurthur Tapp was one of the CSO's on the Perth-based contract that I flew. It tickled my fancy to go cloud-seeding with Mr A Tapp.

I was given a lift from Perth to Jandakot in what I'd swear was REK, maybe in 1969. But there's nothing in my log book of course, I'm relying purely on memory. What I vividly recall though is that the clown flying it switched off the boost pumps with great flourish at 200 ft as we were climbing out, only they were the magneto switches. I filled the ensuing silence with abuse, needless to say...

By George:

I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes now Me too! Droning back from Echuca a few weeks back there was a "CFD" on the radio, thought balloons drifted up of an immaculate maroon/gold/white Queen Air - but it wasn't, of course. Maybe we're showing our age??

[Hailstop3]

Hailstop:

Great photos! Enjoyed your descriptions too, I'd hardly call it "blabbing on".

My recollections of cloud seeding in WA in the late 60's would indicate we used quite different procedures. Winter seeding out of Perth comprised of flying around in the +2/-2C temperature range in cloud, burning silver-iodide (?) out of burners slung under the wings. This was in a B55 (VH-CFJ, the former VH-BIB) with full airframe/prop de-icing but no radar. If nothing else it taught me a lot about instrument flying and operating in icing conditions (and also just how strong a Baron airframe was).

There was also a summer seeding programme out of Meekatharra in a C55 (VH-CFG), a real "punishment posting" if ever there was one. The theory was that you'd find a towering Cu or Cb and fly (and seed) under the base; of course weeks would pass without actually seeing any cloud of any form! Meekatharra itself was a dump, the hotel was dreadful (no air-conditioning for us), the rest of my crew (2 of 3 "Cloud Seeding Officers" employed by the State Government) were constantly bickering amongst themselves and there was little to do. I ended up inventing excuses to go flying just to relieve the tedium.

This technique is still used today with the acetone burners etc. In Canada we would have generally 2 aircraft per cell seeding, one top seeding in a C90, which was my aircraft, and the other base seeding in a C340. The base seeder had 2 acetone burners, 1 on each wing, and a fixed rack on the inner part of each wing that had up to 18 Burn in place AgI flares on each wing. Each flare would burn for 4 mins. The C90 also had these racks of between 12 and 16 flares a side, as well as the 308 ejectable flares mounted on the belly.

Sounds like we learnt very much similar things in cloud seeding, the IF flying is amazing. I'd love to do some more to brush up on my scan.

[arrowjock]

Hello Famtome,
Correct me if I am mistaken but I think I met you at Brian Walker's house during the late 70s/early 80s. My Old Man was Geoffrey K. who owned C310 WRG and Bonanza KKK. I distinctly remember someone I met at Blackjack's telling the story about the bent tailplane on WRG - that person was then flying in Tas - was that you per chance? I still have quite a few photos of WRG and happy memories of many flights in it.
Best, Arrowjock.

[skywagondriver]

REK in later life - west of Cunnamulla 1974

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/WholeFrame50_zpsf36cf679.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/chinapilot/media/WholeFrame50_zpsf36cf679.jpg.html)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/WholeFrame52tif_zps724a2f3e.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/chinapilot/media/WholeFrame52tif_zps724a2f3e.jpg.html)

[Chris Dalton]

Had a discussion recently about cloud seeding operations in th 1980's using a Cessna 310 from Moorabbin. Does anyone have any more information of that operation such as how long did it go for, what were the various pilot's names, where did they do the seeding, etc


Hi there, now 2021 and I’m just seeing this question about pilots of the Cessna 310 that did cloud seeding operations (your 2009 question!)

. I’m not sure about the Moorabbin location, But during this time, my father George Martin flew a Cessna 310 with a call sign REL ? from Mascot/Bankstown aerodromes.
...this plane now is in the Albion Park Heritage aviation Museum I believe. He flew this Cessna for approx 10 years with his co-pilot Bud Withers. I understanding is the CSIRO cancelled the project as there was no concrete evidence that the cloud seeding was repeatably proven to work. Loved knowing that there is still interest in this “rain making” history.

My dad was an ex-Typhoon fighter pilot .. shot down on D-Day over Normandy and harboured by the French resistance for three months prior to being rescued by advancing allied forces

[The sod]

Hello Arrowhead. I knew Geoffrey from the mid 1970's and beyond.
I remember flying from Cootamundra to Canberra in a C310 piloted by Adrian Johnson and John Grey.
It was an inaugural Reg203 flight.
On arrival it was photos all round from the local press then I was off to do an endorsement on KKK
After completing the endorsement I was asked to fly to Mascot and pick up Geoffrey and family at the GA gate.
Quite an adventure for a young fella.
At Mascot Geoffrey took command and returned to West Riding IFR arriving just on dark. Also on board was a woman and young child.
I recall the Baron WRZ ? and of course the Duke WRA ?

[Mach E Avelli]

Back when I started, about 1965, Bob Oliver who owned Murchison Air Charter, had a Cessna 411 rego VH TDB which we used for various contracts. Some high altitude photography and a brief trial cloud seeding. I flew the trial flights, but for reasons I can’t recall they were not successful. Fun, though, and I do recall returning to earth with some mild hail damage which he was not pleased about.

[Dora-9]

I thought Bob Oliver was never pleased about anything (having watched him from afar - I flew at Civils at that time).

I recall Jim Borthwick flying TDB and telling us all in our Queen Airs to "get out of the way, I'm faster and over-taking you" - he never did.

[Mach E Avelli]

Where did Jim Borthwick end up? Last I heard he left Murchison to go to RFDS in Kalgoorlie, but by then I had moved on myself.
Bob was a strange one, but for the day when there were so few industrial protections for GA pilots, not such a bad employer. The day I did my CPL flight test he was waiting at the airport gate to offer me a job and the next day I was flying north under Jim Borthwick’s “guidance” in a C 182. I recall Jim pulled the mixture on me to test my forced landing skill. The whole cable came out of the panel, which got our attention. Fortunately the engine kept running.
Apologies for thread drift.

[Dora-9]

But I love thread drifts!

No idea where Jim and Karen B ended up, I'd like to know. He was one of those wonderful slightly odd characters that seemed to abound back then (not me of course). I recall he went crazy with a Dymo-tape machine, labelling EVERYTHING in the C.411; even the the throttles being marked "No.1" and "No.2" etc.

PM sent to you...

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

There was a 690 Commander(PCV?) operated out of Hobart in about 1982 on the Hydro Electric Commission rainmaking contract.

Me old mate Steve Knott had to rebuild the tailplane after the season, due to damage from hail and ice buildup.

Don Wells, Bill Shoobridge flew the 690 Commander, Lance Scott flew the Pressurised Navajo BSF.

[swspl]

I now own this Cessna 411 (vh-tdb). Its been in storage for nearly 30 years but still complete. I'm considering refurbishing/overhauling this aircraft and would really like to contact anyone who has any background/knowledge of it life. So far I have found that it was the first in Australia ( build no 007) and originally used by the Cessna agent as a demo. It later seems to have been with three aerial survey companies and was retired in 1993.Suprisingly it seems to have been resprayed back to the original exterior trim colours.

If you know anything about this aircraft, its history, ownership or exploits I would appreciate hearing from you. Equally if you know anyone else who might have info, either send me their contact or pass this on to them, so they can choose whether or not they are interested in contacting me. Cheers
Charles
a

[swspl]

Hi. I have just uncovered the cesna 411 -007 known as VH-TDB. I aim to resurrect it after nearly 20 years in storage. If you have any info on the plane or know someone who has flown it, can you get in touch?
Cheers
Charles

[Mach E Avelli]

Using my first logbook as a memory jogger, I think Bob Oliver (Murchison Air Charter) acquired TDB in late 1966. Jim Borthwick endorsed me on it on 5th February 1967. Somewhere around that time I recall it having a camera hatch cut in to the belly at Jandakot. For high altitude photography we sucked on oxygen, and for some jobs took the top half of the cabin door off so that the cameraman could hang his gear out the side. I can't remember how we did the cloud seeding experiment, but it was unsuccessful - maybe they chucked the pellets out through the camera hatch? For some reason the contract went to another operator - maybe the C 411 was too expensive?
The only incident I had was a lucky escape. For some time there had been severe shimmy during landings, which we assumed was caused by the nosewheel. One dark night, landing on a very wet runway at Perth, the shimmy got really bad and I struggled to keep straight while slowing down. The torque link on one main landing gear had dropped (or possibly sheared) its retaining bolt and the gear on that side ended up with the mainwheel at right angles to its proper position. Of course taxying was not possible. The only thing that saved us from ripping the gear leg off was the wet runway, and the tyre did not even deflate.
Another C 411 came to Perth, operated by Bell Bros. I think that was the one which threw a prop and nearly cut the pilot's leg in half.

A very nice aeroplane for its time. To be trusted with flying single pilot in such a machine at a paltry 1300 hours in those days was quite a deal, but now of course kids with that time are flying jets..

[Nuff Said]

I remember TDB very well at Jandakot. I was an apprentice engineer with Simpson Aviation there and we looked after TDB in 1969 / 70. I had my very first flight in this aircraft - hence my memory of it. The flight was to calibrate the autopilot servos I think. I remember having to do an engine change on this aircraft too. Yes, it was fitted with a floor mounted camera mounting and very expensive glass lenses arrangement for the internally mounted camera to "see" through. The engines are not for the faint hearted. Very expensive then, eye watering so now I would think. They had a lovely turbo sound on power but, at idle it was another matter. The straight cut spur gearing for the prop would make horrible mechanical clunking noises due to the gear backlash and the rougher idling engine. Once under power however the backlash was all taken up and there was no gear sound. As Mach E notes above - there was another 411 in WA too operated by Bell Bros - an earth moving contractor at the time and later to become a famous Alan Bond aquision - I think it was registered BBV.

[swspl]

What a great surprise to get such a quick response. Its great to hear your experience with this machine. As far as I can gather it was donated to Victorian TAFE and was never really used for training, hence its still in great ( if dusty condition. The Engines are great, the interior a bit "tardy" and to me ( a very sad classic car ( SAABs) enthusiast) its a machine worth resurrecting. If you can think of anyone else who has info, experience or knowledge of this early Cessna twin, I would love to here from them. I have shipped the aircraft from Victoria to Sydney ( in container with wings/engines removed and will be working on it for a few years to come. Brought the Wings up myself on an modified car transporter trailer to ensure they weren't "mis-treated"..... never had so much attention form those who met me while filling up with fuel!!

Again many thanks for your insights

Cheers
Charles

Many many thanks for your quick response.

I was amazed to find this machine that seems to have been mothballed for 30 years. Its all there and I have now moved it to Sydney. Body engine in a container and wings separated transported personally on a modified car trailer.. Created lots of attention when I stopped foe fuel!!

If you have any more info, please let me know as I think this early "executive Twin Cessna" is worth looking after... even if it takes me many years,

Cheers, charles
.Using my first logbook as a memory jogger, I think Bob Oliver (Murchison Air Charter) acquired TDB in late 1966. Jim Borthwick endorsed me on it on 5th February 1967. Somewhere around that time I recall it having a camera hatch cut in to the belly at Jandakot. For high altitude photography we sucked on oxygen, and for some jobs took the top half of the cabin door off so that the cameraman could hang his gear out the side. I can't remember how we did the cloud seeding experiment, but it was unsuccessful - maybe they chucked the pellets out through the camera hatch? For some reason the contract went to another operator - maybe the C 411 was too expensive?
The only incident I had was a lucky escape. For some time there had been severe shimmy during landings, which we assumed was caused by the nosewheel. One dark night, landing on a very wet runway at Perth, the shimmy got really bad and I struggled to keep straight while slowing down. The torque link on one main landing gear had dropped (or possibly sheared) its retaining bolt and the gear on that side ended up with the mainwheel at right angles to its proper position. Of course taxying was not possible. The only thing that saved us from ripping the gear leg off was the wet runway, and the tyre did not even deflate.
Another C 411 came to Perth, operated by Bell Bros. I think that was the one which threw a prop and nearly cut the pilot's leg in half.

A very nice aeroplane for its time. To be trusted with flying single pilot in such a machine at a paltry 1300 hours in those days was quite a deal, but now of course kids with that time are flying jets..

[Dora-9]

Another C 411 came to Perth, operated by Bell Bros. I think that was the one which threw a prop and nearly cut the pilot's leg in half.


That was BBV, a highly utilized (and generally thrashed) aircraft. Regarding the prop separation episode and my memories of this, the propeller struck the aircraft with the disc horizontal, so it "walked" down the fuselage narrowly missing the pilot's head. He was (luckily, in this case), a quite short gent whose name now totally escapes me, but as I recall he was uninjured though perhaps rather startled. DCA then spent a great deal of time searching for the prop - it was never located.

[buzzz.lightyear]

Did my C400 series endorsement in BBV at Berwick on 6th November 1977.

[First_Principal]

That was BBV, a highly utilized (and generally thrashed) aircraft. Regarding the prop separation episode and my memories of this, the propeller struck the aircraft with the disc horizontal, so it "walked" down the fuselage narrowly missing the pilot's head. He was (luckily, in this case), a quite short gent whose name now totally escapes me, but as I recall he was uninjured though perhaps rather startled. DCA then spent a great deal of time searching for the prop - it was never located.

This sounded interesting technically, so I had a look around on the Interweb. Wasn't able to find anything, but it could be I wasn't using the right search terminology - does anyone know about the resultant investigation and if there was a report issued?

Thanks, FP.

[aroa]

Dora Any idea in what region the propellor went to earth?

[Dora-9]

aroa:
Really straining the grey matter here - I THINK it was in the Lofty Range/Bulloo Downs area (north of Meekatharra).

FP:
I've been searching for any deference to this episode, and have failed abysmally to find anything!

[arrowjock]

Hello The Sod!
Sorry, only saw your comment a few years late (you posted in 2017 and I've only just seen it tonight!) Baron was an E55 (EZX) and yes, the Duke was WRA. KKK was traded along with WRG for EZX in 1972. KKK still survives in some form although it has suffered a few prangs along the way. EZX (in another registration) was written off in a fuel exhaustion incident near Camden when the fuel caps were left off and all the fuel vented out of the tanks. We all know what happened to WRG two years after it was traded. Very interesting reading Fantome's account of the left tailplane damage during its cloud seeding days. Makes one wonder if it was related to the breakup in 1974 in any way?

[Duck Pilot]

Bill Surh of Peninsular Air Services owned VH-REL in the late sixties and early seventies at Moorabbin. 'REL' was indeed an ex cloud-seeder and he also, later,(1970?) had a contract with the CSIRO for seeding, using a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO an ex Conellan machine. Very little use was made of it in the cloud-seeding mode. I cannot remember why. The 310B was a totally different animal to later 310s' especially the 'Q' onwards, but great fun to fly, very light in roll. I saw 'REL' in Hamilton in the early eighties while visiting the Ansett Museum. The pilots for the CSIRO contract were Bill himself and John Fleming. Sadly both were subsequently killed in aircraft accidents. 'CLO' was painted two-tone blue with the CSIRO badge on the rear fuselage and fin. After the contract ended the aircraft was painted in a yellow scheme and ended its days on the Cairns fire dump.

Off the topic a bit, I recall meeting Bill Surh indirectly when I was a work experience kid with Aero Support International at Essendon (Hangar 104). It would have been back in 86 or 87.

Sadly, not long after (not the same day) I saw a Cessna 402 (VH-RED) take off from runway 35 at Essendon on a hot afternoon and observed smoke coming from an engine and it wasn’t performing, it went down shortly afterwards and I saw the black smoke🤬. There is a freeway somewhere near the accident site now I believe.

I heard that was Bill flying the aeroplane.

I was learning to fly at the time, the memory of seeing the 402 trailing smoke and not performing will always be in my memory, together with knowing that a very experienced pilot was flying it.

I’m now quite experienced, however I still consider every flight to be my first.